MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

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Paul in Saudi
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Paul in Saudi » Sat Jul 19, 2014 12:44 pm UTC

I have read (but not checked) that this atrocity has hit the Dutch population harder than 9-11 hit the US population. That is to say a greater percentage of the Dutch population was killed in this massacre than the percentage of the US population that were killed on 9-11.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby sardia » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:57 pm UTC

Paul in Saudi wrote:I have read (but not checked) that this atrocity has hit the Dutch population harder than 9-11 hit the US population. That is to say a greater percentage of the Dutch population was killed in this massacre than the percentage of the US population that were killed on 9-11.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world ... ussia.html
More importantly, the Dutch are acting cautiously. Can't risk their trade ties to Russia over this. It's the price of doing business, akin the to the Saudi oil trade.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Paul in Saudi » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:02 pm UTC

Some talking head on the Chris Hays show says there are reports that the credit cards of the dead are being used in the region. Stay classy, Russia!

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby sardia » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:09 pm UTC

Paul in Saudi wrote:Some talking head on the Chris Hays show says there are reports that the credit cards of the dead are being used in the region. Stay classy, Russia!

Any confirmation? It shouldn't be hard to timestamp purchases, and then inquire into the credit agencies. Because it's easily propaganda, and has no bearing on the destruction of the flight. Like if the flight had merely crashed due to pilot error. Unless the rebels did something really convoluted like shoot down the plane in order to get the juicy credit cards of the passengers.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Brace » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:46 pm UTC

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby StapleHorseOctopus » Sat Jul 19, 2014 7:39 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Any confirmation? It shouldn't be hard to timestamp purchases, and then inquire into the credit agencies. Because it's easily propaganda, and has no bearing on the destruction of the flight. Like if the flight had merely crashed due to pilot error. Unless the rebels did something really convoluted like shoot down the plane in order to get the juicy credit cards of the passengers.


Not so sure. In Europe credit cards are more likely to be set up in such a way that the money is automatically deducted from bank accounts (bank-to-bank transfers are a major means of making payments). Furthermore, European debit cards can be used in some countries without a PIN code, and the money is immediately deducted from the accounts.

But yeah, it should be possible to track where the payments were made via the banks and credit card companies (and then disallow any future payments from those terminals, as they are laundering stolen money).

As for convoluted thoughts, it did cross my mind that this could be intentional, to get influential people from the West visit the crash zone and then hold them hostage to force concessions from Ukraine and the West. However, considering the general ineptitude and lack of ethics the separatists are displaying in handling this, it's probably pure stupidity.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Hawknc » Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:59 am UTC

sardia wrote:
Paul in Saudi wrote:I have read (but not checked) that this atrocity has hit the Dutch population harder than 9-11 hit the US population. That is to say a greater percentage of the Dutch population was killed in this massacre than the percentage of the US population that were killed on 9-11.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world ... ussia.html
More importantly, the Dutch are acting cautiously. Can't risk their trade ties to Russia over this. It's the price of doing business, akin the to the Saudi oil trade.

I'm glad someone is. Our Prime Minister has explicitly blamed Russia for the crash, and now the Murdoch press is piling on the anti-Russia rhetoric (no less than six separate articles blaming Russia for the crash in today's Herald Sun). I'll agree that the evidence looks fairly stacked against rebels in Ukraine, but a little diplomacy from world leaders would go a long way.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby StapleHorseOctopus » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:38 am UTC

Linking to The Guardian, because the BBC won't load for me - reports of them being under a DDOS attack (timely and classy) :roll: .

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/mh17-victims-train-torez-ukraine

Total stupidity at work. I would wish the separatists' self-appointed minister of foreign affairs would take a little less inspiration from Nazi Germany and start using his brain, because right now the separatists are mostly making themselves look like total whackjobs AND incriminating themselves massively. What's next? When they discover Russia doesn't want a train full of bodies, dump them in a mass grave or incinerate them :shock: ? Well, at least it's refrigerated. That's a thought. <_< :roll:

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Khelevaster » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:02 am UTC

StapleHorseOctopus wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/mh17-victims-train-torez-ukraine

Total stupidity at work. I would wish the separatists' self-appointed minister of foreign affairs would take a little less inspiration from Nazi Germany and start using his brain, because right now the separatists are mostly making themselves look like total whackjobs AND incriminating themselves massively. What's next? When they discover Russia doesn't want a train full of bodies, dump them in a mass grave or incinerate them :shock: ? Well, at least it's refrigerated. That's a thought. <_< :roll:


It's a little trickier than that.

They are probably trying to hide the bodies that were close to the point of impact, ones with sharapnel in them. And hide the pieces of that part of the plane as well. If enough missile parts are recovered, it would be easier to determine the origin of it.

Looks like they are not doing it randomly. My guess is that someone is "advising" them. Who could that be...

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Mambrino » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:07 am UTC

StapleHorseOctopus wrote:Linking to The Guardian, because the BBC won't load for me - reports of them being under a DDOS attack (timely and classy) :roll: .

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/mh17-victims-train-torez-ukraine

Total stupidity at work. I would wish the separatists' self-appointed minister of foreign affairs would take a little less inspiration from Nazi Germany and start using his brain, because right now the separatists are mostly making themselves look like total whackjobs AND incriminating themselves massively. What's next? When they discover Russia doesn't want a train full of bodies, dump them in a mass grave or incinerate them :shock: ? Well, at least it's refrigerated. That's a thought. <_< :roll:


Well, putting the bodies into someplace cold before they rot (I think some reporters told that they were already in a bad shape after all these couple of days) sounds like reasonable idea, and it's not like the-village-apparently-in-the-middle-of-nowhere where the wreckage came down has the mortuary capabilities for hundreds of victims.

However, "let's load them into train heading who-knows-where without counting them or anything" doesn't scream professionalism. Or about anything about this sad case on the rebels' part.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby sardia » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:43 pm UTC

Several Buk systems were seen on satellite crossing back into Russia territory. Rebels probably don't want to cause another incident until this thing blows over.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby johnny_7713 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:49 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Paul in Saudi wrote:I have read (but not checked) that this atrocity has hit the Dutch population harder than 9-11 hit the US population. That is to say a greater percentage of the Dutch population was killed in this massacre than the percentage of the US population that were killed on 9-11.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world ... ussia.html
More importantly, the Dutch are acting cautiously. Can't risk their trade ties to Russia over this. It's the price of doing business, akin the to the Saudi oil trade.


Is it really that strange? I mean, assuming that the separatists shot down MH17 (and that does seem the most likely explanation) everyone is pretty sure that is was an accident, right? At least in the sense that while the separatist did intend to shoot down aeroplanes, they didn't mean to shoot down any civilian airliners. I mean I'm not saying that the we (the Dutch) should just let this slide, but there's no reason to interpret it as an act of war either.

Regarding the percentage of the population claim: The American population is roughly 20 time the size of the Dutch population, and 9/11 had less than 20 times the number of victims as there were Dutchmen onboard MH17, so it sounds reasonable. It's a difference on the order of tens of percentage points at most though, not orders of magnitude.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby sardia » Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:55 pm UTC

It isn't an act of war, but you're wrong about not letting it slide. That's exactly what the Netherlands, and Europe is trying to balance, or in more harsh terms put up the minimum objections needed without taking an economic hit. If the Dutch have to give Russia a pass because Putin made a mistake when he gave all those Buk missile systems to the rebels, then so be it.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Vahir » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:56 pm UTC

We need to show restraint and not persue diplomatic sanctions until they've determined who is responsible. Once that's done, though, we need to crack down on the party responsible. Accident or not, shooting down passenger planes and causing the deaths of hundreds is inexcusable.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby sardia » Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:06 am UTC

How many billions are you willing to lose on 300 dead people? More than zero is the obvious answer, but less than what is the unknown.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Diadem » Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:48 am UTC

sardia wrote:It isn't an act of war, but you're wrong about not letting it slide. That's exactly what the Netherlands, and Europe is trying to balance, or in more harsh terms put up the minimum objections needed without taking an economic hit. If the Dutch have to give Russia a pass because Putin made a mistake when he gave all those Buk missile systems to the rebels, then so be it.

We Dutch are not Americans. Going in guns blazing has never been our style. We're more about diplomacy, but diplomacy is best done behind closed doors, so the public won't see much about what is happening. And never forget that while the Dutch may be unwilling to take a huge economic hit, the same is true for Russia. Economic dependence goes both ways. Russia is as anxious about damaging relations with us as we are about damaging relations with them.

And honestly, in this case, not much response is needed, because the incident already gave us what we wanted. Putin is already backing off on his support for the separatists. He clearly has been unwilling to escalate the conflict. Prepared to escalate it perhaps, if absolutely necessary, but unwilling. Russia has too much to lose by escalation. Now, the conflict is in danger of escalating in the worst possible way for Russia, a way in which very clearly the fault lies entirely with them. Putin has little choice but to back off now. That won't immediately end the conflict, but it sets back the separatists a lot. They won't survive long without Russian support.

Diplomatic pressure on Russia to make sure they do indeed back off is the best strategy now. But this necessarily needs to be mostly hidden, because Putin will never accept public humiliation. Very strong words of condemnation and other posturing will only give Putin an opportunity to spin this into a story about Western imperialism, and will thus only help him.



As a side node, let's not be hypocritical. It seems like it was pretty clearly an accident. If Israel gets to kill thousands of civilians and call it collateral damage, and the US gets to kill tens of thousands and call it the same in Iraq and Afghanistan, then why wouldn't Ukrainian separatists be allowed to do the same?
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Vahir » Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:55 am UTC

Diadem wrote:As a side node, let's not be hypocritical. It seems like it was pretty clearly an accident. If Israel gets to kill thousands of civilians and call it collateral damage, and the US gets to kill tens of thousands and call it the same in Iraq and Afghanistan, then why wouldn't Ukrainian separatists be allowed to do the same?


This is ALL hypothetical. As of this post, it's unknown who brought down the plane, how, or even if the plane was brought down at all. There aren't a lot of sold facts around, so yeah, we'll discuss the hypotheticals and what-ifs.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby sardia » Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:06 am UTC

I do agree that diplomatic pressure is the way to get Russia to back off. However, what I'm saying is that the European countries are not applying sufficient diplomatic pressure. I say that because Russia wasn't backing off before this plane was shot down. Unless you count supplying rebels with arms, and men instead of outright invading as progress.

If no further response is needed, then Putin is going to give back Crimea? I agree that this will set back the rebels, but because it will lead to more sanctions. The Ukrainian war has shown that previously thought outrageous action like invading another country is taken rather in stride by the international community. The current level of sanctions has been remarkably weak given the level of aggressiveness shown by Russia.

I disagree with needing to help Putin spin events to not humiliate him. Putin has a media team, he already can spin any tale he needs to without our help.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Crissa » Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:25 am UTC

Why should sanctions not be used? Why does it matter if it were Russians or the Russian-backed Ukrainian separatists?

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby BattleMoose » Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:36 am UTC

Vahir wrote:We need to show restraint and not persue diplomatic sanctions until they've determined who is responsible. Once that's done, though, we need to crack down on the party responsible. Accident or not, shooting down passenger planes and causing the deaths of hundreds is inexcusable.


Like when USS Vincennes shot down Iranian Air Flight 655 after mistaking it for a fighter jet, killing 290 innocent civilians? What cracking down happened then? How should the world have reacted against the USA for shooting down a passenger plane and causing the deaths of hundreds, which is an inexcusable act?

And with a particularly callous response, "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy." - George Bush, Aug 2 1988.

Look, this was clearly an accident. Accidents happen. It is effectively a warzone and where shooting happens innocent people get shot. If this incident causes Putin to back down so much the better. But otherwise I don't think there is much else to do but to accept that this was a tragic accident, resolve to prevent them in the future and move on.

And maybe don't fly civilian aircraft over an area where surface to air missiles are being launched? Like a number of airlines had already chosen to do prior to this tragedy.

Why should sanctions not be used? Why does it matter if it were Russians or the Russian-backed Ukrainian separatists?


Let the people who are actually going to have to apply and bear the consequences of applying sanctions choose to apply sanctions. Sanctions cut both ways.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Angua » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:49 am UTC

Vahir wrote:
Diadem wrote:As a side node, let's not be hypocritical. It seems like it was pretty clearly an accident. If Israel gets to kill thousands of civilians and call it collateral damage, and the US gets to kill tens of thousands and call it the same in Iraq and Afghanistan, then why wouldn't Ukrainian separatists be allowed to do the same?


This is ALL hypothetical. As of this post, it's unknown who brought down the plane, how, or even if the plane was brought down at all. There aren't a lot of sold facts around, so yeah, we'll discuss the hypotheticals and what-ifs.

They said hypocritical, not hypothetical.
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Mambrino » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:29 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
Vahir wrote:We need to show restraint and not persue diplomatic sanctions until they've determined who is responsible. Once that's done, though, we need to crack down on the party responsible. Accident or not, shooting down passenger planes and causing the deaths of hundreds is inexcusable.


Like when USS Vincennes shot down Iranian Air Flight 655 after mistaking it for a fighter jet, killing 290 innocent civilians? What cracking down happened then? How should the world have reacted against the USA for shooting down a passenger plane and causing the deaths of hundreds, which is an inexcusable act?

And with a particularly callous response, "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy." - George Bush, Aug 2 1988.

Look, this was clearly an accident. Accidents happen. It is effectively a warzone and where shooting happens innocent people get shot. If this incident causes Putin to back down so much the better. But otherwise I don't think there is much else to do but to accept that this was a tragic accident, resolve to prevent them in the future and move on.

And maybe don't fly civilian aircraft over an area where surface to air missiles are being launched? Like a number of airlines had already chosen to do prior to this tragedy.

Why should sanctions not be used? Why does it matter if it were Russians or the Russian-backed Ukrainian separatists?


Let the people who are actually going to have to apply and bear the consequences of applying sanctions choose to apply sanctions. Sanctions cut both ways.


Maybe the "cracking down" that should have happened, but nobody was or is ever able to do when it comes to great powers, except when they lose a war or they're civlized enough to have their own justice system to do something (which rarely happens even in the liberal western nations)? Even if I think most of people can agree Putin's previous comments that did amount to "this is Kiev's government's fault because they didn't surrender" were especially callous, this kind of accident, especially remembering the insanity a century ago, serve as illustration why maybe pacifists did then and still have a point: that war is reprehensible act, even if it can't avoided or there's no better option. If a civilian were responsible for this kind of accident, there would be a "crack down". But when done by someone wearing camo because a politician gave them orders, suddenly killing people isn't a crime; on the contrary, it's perfectly acceptable. Even this kind of terrible mass loss of life becomes a mere tragedic accident, and that's just because the people who died are not Ukrainian civilians (because local civilians getting shot is to be anticipated).

Getting rid of war is an impossibly utopic thought, at least for the next couple of centuries or (let's be realistic), the next couple of millenia, so I can see why modern state should maintain a military force. However, I'd think it would be quite a step forward on the path of moral progress for the whole humankind if we could start getting furious about this kind of accidents just enough to except people who are responsible for them to be held accountable. Even in the case the if they're are disorganized bunch of rebels and thus maybe not powerful enough to evade justice. And it's not like this is the only horrible thing that has happened in Ukraine; I think there was few weeks ago a report by Amnesty which gave some basis for Kiev seemingly preposterous stance of insisting calling the rebels 'terrorists'.

Maybe world would be a better place if enough people we're sickened about letting accidents like this pass as 'accidents', but I guess I'm a hapless idealistic optimist. Yet we've now got ICC and The Hague, where Ratko Mladić and Radovan Karadžić are being trialled, so there's hope?

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Mambrino » Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:21 pm UTC

Excuse the double post (especially after in the previous I somehow managed to set myself onto a rantish tangent about how the world is terrible place), but we've got a recent development: the "official Russia" seems to be going with the "Ukrainian military did it to frame the rebels" line:

RT: Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash

Breaking news
b
The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. Kiev must explain why the military jet was tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said.

“A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.

“[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated.

“The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.”

The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.

At the moment of the MH17 crash an American satellite was flying over the area of eastern Ukraine, according to Russia’s Defense Ministry. It urged the US to publish the space photos and data captured by it.

In addition, MH17 crashed within the operating zone of the Ukrainian army’s self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air ‘Buk’ missile systems, the Russian general said.


e. fixed quote. Also, apparently the tactic here might be to 1) claim that the plane was shot down with air-to-air missile (according to Finnish media, Russian media has lately featured specialists describing the differences between the damages caused by an air-to-air missile and Buk missile) and 2) if it wasn't, then it was Ukrainian Buk.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Mutex » Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:32 pm UTC

From the live updates (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28399670):

BREAKING NEWS It is confirmed that the train containing bodies of the victims of flight MH17 has left Torez station, about 15km from the main crash site. The train's destination is still unconfirmed.


What the hell are they doing...

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Chen » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:05 pm UTC

Hmm its interesting how the Russians are asking the US to release their satellite photos of that area at the time.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Vahir » Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:06 pm UTC

Angua wrote:
Vahir wrote:
Diadem wrote:As a side node, let's not be hypocritical. It seems like it was pretty clearly an accident. If Israel gets to kill thousands of civilians and call it collateral damage, and the US gets to kill tens of thousands and call it the same in Iraq and Afghanistan, then why wouldn't Ukrainian separatists be allowed to do the same?


This is ALL hypothetical. As of this post, it's unknown who brought down the plane, how, or even if the plane was brought down at all. There aren't a lot of sold facts around, so yeah, we'll discuss the hypotheticals and what-ifs.

They said hypocritical, not hypothetical.


Doh!

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby StapleHorseOctopus » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:20 am UTC

Mambrino wrote:

“The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.”

The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.



e. fixed quote. Also, apparently the tactic here might be to 1) claim that the plane was shot down with air-to-air missile (according to Finnish media, Russian media has lately featured specialists describing the differences between the damages caused by an air-to-air missile and Buk missile) and 2) if it wasn't, then it was Ukrainian Buk.


The "video shots" are said to be footage from a radar station. Unfortunately for the Russians, radar is not precise enough to show whether or not the (hypothetical) Su-25 was actually armed with missiles (or so I am told by a family member with 50 years of experience in the field of aviation). Furthermore, the Su-25 is of course also used by Russia, and it would not be particularly hard to repaint one in different colors for some incrimination tactics (or just doctor the videos). So I'll just put this one in the same category as the US' claims they have pictures of the BUK launcher launching the missiles (without showing anything), i.e. lies until proven.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Brace » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:59 am UTC

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Diadem » Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:03 pm UTC

Are we back to assuming they did it on purpose? Because imho that still seems rather unlikely
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Brace » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:13 pm UTC

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Chen » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:18 pm UTC

Brace wrote:They have to know the US satellite schedule, and there probably weren't any satellites overhead at the time. They're asking for evidence they know doesn't exist so that they can act outraged when the US 'refuses' to turn it over.


Well they specifically said there was a US satellite over the area. Now perhaps that's a lie, but that seems more easily defused by "uh we didn't have any satellites there" instead of just saying no to turning anything over.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby FLHerne » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:33 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:From the live updates (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28399670):

BREAKING NEWS It is confirmed that the train containing bodies of the victims of flight MH17 has left Torez station, about 15km from the main crash site. The train's destination is still unconfirmed.


What the hell are they doing...

Taking them out of the conflict zone, apparently.

StapleHorseOctopus wrote:
Mambrino wrote:
“The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.”

The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.


The "video shots" are said to be footage from a radar station. Unfortunately for the Russians, radar is not precise enough to show whether or not the (hypothetical) Su-25 was actually armed with missiles (or so I am told by a family member with 50 years of experience in the field of aviation). Furthermore, the Su-25 is of course also used by Russia, and it would not be particularly hard to repaint one in different colors for some incrimination tactics (or just doctor the videos). So I'll just put this one in the same category as the US' claims they have pictures of the BUK launcher launching the missiles (without showing anything), i.e. lies until proven.

I read the 'equipped with missiles' bit as an extension of the 'according to its specification' (and why would anyone be flying a very-expensive fighter in a conflict zone without carrying weapons anyway?). Since it's radar footage, the paint is irrelevant (you wouldn't be able to see it anyway).

Khelevaster
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Khelevaster » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:16 pm UTC

I'm wondering why the russians are talking about a SU-25 following the airliner. Claiming that it could have been shot down by a SU-25 sounds stupid IMO. Su-25 is a close air support plane. It's not a "figther jet", it's designed for engaging ground targets.

Let's look at Wikipedia. SU-25 Service ceiling: 7,000 m clean, 5,000 m with max weapons; Maximum speed: Mach 0.8 (975 km/h) at sea level.
Edit: Official Sukhoi site confirms the numbers.
Not only can the SU-25 not reach the altitude the liner was fying at, but also SU-25's max speed is only slightly higher than the cruising speed of the Boeing, which means it wouldn't be able to catch the thing.

Also recent findings show that the liner was hit from the front, which makes the whole SU-25 story sound even more stupid.

Did they wanted to say SU-27, but made a mistake in a hurry and now have to stick to the story?

engr
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby engr » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:59 pm UTC

So, after all the "oh noes, the rebels are taking bodies snd flight recorders somewhere! They are not letting experts near wreckage!!" hand-wringing, it turns out that:
1. OSCE experts are working on the crash site. In fact, foreign represenratives have been there since last week.
2. Train carrying the human remains have arrived to Kharkov, in Ukrainian-controlled territory.
3. Rebels handed the flight recorders to Britain.
4. Rebels declared a ceasefire zone 40km around the wreckage to allow examination.
5. Russian ministry of defense had a press briefing yesterday, where they showed evidence against Ukrainians, and.... no one gives a shit. Try to find any info on this briefing in any media, except RT. And Guardian.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. Gilbert K. Chesterton

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omgryebread
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby omgryebread » Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:36 pm UTC

engr wrote:So, after all the "oh noes, the rebels are taking bodies snd flight recorders somewhere! They are not letting experts near wreckage!!" hand-wringing, it turns out that:

1. OSCE experts are working on the crash site. In fact, foreign represenratives have been there since last week.

They've also noted that the wreckage has been tampered with.

2. Train carrying the human remains have arrived to Kharkov, in Ukrainian-controlled territory.
Though it took a while.

3. Rebels handed the flight recorders to Britain.
Actually, to Malaysia. In turn, the Malaysian colonel who got the boxes handed them to Dutch officials, and they are being sent to experts in the UK.

4. Rebels declared a ceasefire zone 40km around the wreckage to allow examination.
No, the Ukrainian government has declared the 40km ceasefire zone. The rebels have only declared 10km.

5. Russian ministry of defense had a press briefing yesterday, where they showed evidence against Ukrainians, and.... no one gives a shit. Try to find any info on this briefing in any media, except RT. And Guardian.
I can't find it on the the Guardian. The only people who seem to be covering this "evidence" is RT. Maybe when the only media outlet covering something happens to be Putin's loyal mouthpiece, the immediate suspicion should be on them, rather than one some massive coverup.
avatar from Nononono by Lynn Okamoto.

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sardia
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby sardia » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:21 am UTC

engr wrote:So, after all the "oh noes, the rebels are taking bodies snd flight recorders somewhere! They are not letting experts near wreckage!!" hand-wringing, it turns out that:
1. OSCE experts are working on the crash site. In fact, foreign represenratives have been there since last week.
2. Train carrying the human remains have arrived to Kharkov, in Ukrainian-controlled territory.
3. Rebels handed the flight recorders to Britain.
4. Rebels declared a ceasefire zone 40km around the wreckage to allow examination.
5. Russian ministry of defense had a press briefing yesterday, where they showed evidence against Ukrainians, and.... no one gives a shit. Try to find any info on this briefing in any media, except RT. And Guardian.

Don't forget my fellow Russians, there's no way these rebellious heroes of Eastern Ukraine could have shot down the plane. After all, it was filled with corpses beforehand
http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1809353
moved off it's normal flight path
https://www.facebook.com/severskij/post ... 3631081301
all to start a war with Russia and America.
http://news2.ru/story/416696/

You can read more about the "Truth" behind Russia's victimization at
http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782

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eSOANEM
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby eSOANEM » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:03 am UTC

The fact that there is now not a single national news agency in Russia not controlled by the state (the last one got taken over shortly before the winter olympics), I think adding a "not" before any verb in their headlines will probably make them more accurate on issues like this.

"it wasn't filled with corpses beforehand"
"it didn't move off its normal flight path"
"it wasn't to start a war with Russia and America"
"you can't read more about the truth behind Russia's victimisation"

:p
my pronouns are they

Magnanimous wrote:(fuck the macrons)

Kristen23
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Kristen23 » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:32 am UTC

As if this news of the MH17 crash was not enough, news coming in that another plane (albeit a smaller one) crashes in Taiwan and upto 47 people feared dead.
Apparently, it seems that the plane was trying to land in stormy weather and the twin-engine turboprop plane crashed in its second landing attempt after having failed the first unsuccessful attempt. And then the Taiwanese president calls it 'a very sad day in the history of Taiwanese aviation'. In such cases, I feel it's not only a sad day for the particular country or the particular airlines involved but also for all of us since this is something we can relate to so closely. First MH370, then MH17 and now this. Wonder what's in store... :(

StapleHorseOctopus
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby StapleHorseOctopus » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:44 pm UTC

engr wrote:So, after all the "oh noes, the rebels are taking bodies snd flight recorders somewhere! They are not letting experts near wreckage!!" hand-wringing, it turns out that:
1. OSCE experts are working on the crash site. In fact, foreign represenratives have been there since last week.


"have been there" are the right words, because they have been there and were limited in their work. Now they can go to the crash site with no problems, because there's no one there anymore to keep guard, according to Dutch media.

2. Train carrying the human remains have arrived to Kharkov, in Ukrainian-controlled territory.


This is correct. Furthermore, the bodies are actually labeled and numbered (dixit Dutch media sources). I think this is just a case of extremely bad communication, and speculation going out of hand.

3. Rebels handed the flight recorders to Britain.


Actually, rebels => Malaysian delegation => Dutch => English. And they've not been tampered with, unlike what was reported previously. Just a little cosmetic damage.

4. Rebels declared a ceasefire zone 40km around the wreckage to allow examination.
5. Russian ministry of defense had a press briefing yesterday, where they showed evidence against Ukrainians, and.... no one gives a shit. Try to find any info on this briefing in any media, except RT. And Guardian.


Not reported in Dutch media. What is being reported are plans to hopefully be able to deploy a UN-mandated police force with the explicit task to make an independent salvage operation possible.

StapleHorseOctopus
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby StapleHorseOctopus » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:46 pm UTC

Kristen23 wrote:As if this news of the MH17 crash was not enough, news coming in that another plane (albeit a smaller one) crashes in Taiwan and upto 47 people feared dead.
Apparently, it seems that the plane was trying to land in stormy weather and the twin-engine turboprop plane crashed in its second landing attempt after having failed the first unsuccessful attempt. And then the Taiwanese president calls it 'a very sad day in the history of Taiwanese aviation'. In such cases, I feel it's not only a sad day for the particular country or the particular airlines involved but also for all of us since this is something we can relate to so closely. First MH370, then MH17 and now this. Wonder what's in store... :(


And another one missing over Mali :( .


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