MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

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NewNewz
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby NewNewz » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:55 pm UTC

SO terrible. Can you imagine being a relation of one on-board, reading about how their loved ones have been treated like another country's 'property'.... I just can't imagine...

engr
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby engr » Mon Jul 28, 2014 1:48 am UTC

omgryebread wrote: They've also noted that the wreckage has been tampered with.


Europeans have already confirmed that flight recorders were not tampered with.

Though it took a while.


Yeah, I mean, why did it take so long to collect thousands of human remains' fragments spread over a large territory (not all wreckage landed in one place), package them, get a train with refrigerator cars into a war zone, load it up, send it from the war zone...

I can't find it on the the Guardian. The only people who seem to be covering this "evidence" is RT. Maybe when the only media outlet covering something happens to be Putin's loyal mouthpiece, the immediate suspicion should be on them, rather than one some massive coverup.


Or maybe you are just not willing to look for info that doesn't fit nicely into your picture?
(For anyone curious to see the press briefing in English. On a side note, Russian government should really invest some money into better interpreters).
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. Gilbert K. Chesterton

engr
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby engr » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:03 am UTC

sardia wrote:Don't forget my fellow Russians, there's no way these rebellious heroes of Eastern Ukraine could have shot down the plane. After all, it was filled with corpses beforehand


Don't forget my fellow Ukrainians, people in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa burned themselves to death (and they all had Russian passports), Russian journalists weren't shot by Ukrainian armed forces, Ukraine didn't shoot down a Russian airliner and keep denying it for weeks*, civilians in Lugansk died because an anti-aircraft missile by rebels re-aimed itself at an air conditioner in the building and not because Ukrainians released a barrage of unguided missiles, there are no National Socialists (Svoboda) in Ukrainian government, Ukrainian "Azov" battalion doesn't use SS symbolic, etc. etc.

*For those unfamiliar with the story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Ai ... light_1812
In 2001, Ukrainian military shot down a Russian airliner, killing 78 people. Ukrainians kept denying this for a while, then, after it became impossible to deny it, finally admitted it but their president said that "this is not a tragedy, people have done worse mistakes that that".
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. Gilbert K. Chesterton

johnny_7713
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby johnny_7713 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:52 am UTC

engr wrote:
omgryebread wrote: They've also noted that the wreckage has been tampered with.


Europeans have already confirmed that flight recorders were not tampered with.



The flight recorders are only a small part of the wreckage, just because they weren't tampered with doesn't mean the rest of the wreckage wasn't. (Though of course it doesn't mean the rest of the wreckage was tampered with either).
Besides tampering with the flight recorders would be pretty pointless. I mean everyone agrees that MH17 was shot down, they just disagree over who did it. Since the flight recorders are not going to tell you that anyway, there's no point in messing with them (which would require an awful lot of knowledge if you wanted to falsify the data, or a rather obvious use of brute force if you just wanted to destroy the data).

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Crissa
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Crissa » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:24 pm UTC

engr wrote:
sardia wrote:Don't forget my fellow Russians, there's no way these rebellious heroes of Eastern Ukraine could have shot down the plane. After all, it was filled with corpses beforehand


Don't forget my fellow Ukrainians, people in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa burned themselves to death (and they all had Russian passports), Russian journalists weren't shot by Ukrainian armed forces, Ukraine didn't shoot down a Russian airliner and keep denying it for weeks*, civilians in Lugansk died because an anti-aircraft missile by rebels re-aimed itself at an air conditioner in the building and not because Ukrainians released a barrage of unguided missiles, there are no National Socialists (Svoboda) in Ukrainian government, Ukrainian "Azov" battalion doesn't use SS symbolic, etc. etc.

Rather one-sided and uncited complaints? Great selection you have there.

Because a fire could totally choose only people with Russian passports in a town not near the Russian border.

Random violence blamed on Ukrainian troops with no attribution (and no way to investigate! Nice!).

Further listing random accidents from a decade ago. Why?

It does show that no one should be reading your citations, though, if you're going to drag things from decades ago, or complain that a northern European might use Norther European symbols, and basically make a biased list just to make a biased list. All these things except one were true for the pro-European Ukrainian government that abdicated.

-Crissa

engr
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby engr » Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:17 pm UTC

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -site.html
Dutch PM is asking Ukrainian president to stop fighting near the crash site and let European experts do their job.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. Gilbert K. Chesterton

StapleHorseOctopus
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby StapleHorseOctopus » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:30 pm UTC

One has to wonder whether it would somehow be convenient for Ukraine if the crash site was defaced by a battle.. :roll:

Frankly, about everyone except the Dutch government should stop behaving like little kids and just let people do their job, even though the circumstances are difficult...

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:55 pm UTC

StapleHorseOctopus wrote:One has to wonder whether it would somehow be convenient for Ukraine if the crash site was defaced by a battle.. :roll:


Not particularly. I mean...there isn't much serious ambiguity that the plane went down. Or that it got shot down...the big question is "by who". And really, the physical evidence isn't going to tell you the sympathies of the guy behind the trigger.

My guess is the dutch will say "yup, shot down by AA missile just as ya'll already knew". And the fighting is happening because...crap, the two sides haven't been getting along. They'd be fighting even if there was no plane downed.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby BeerBottle » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:03 pm UTC

So now the EU and US have imposed further sanctions on Russia, apparently for failing to cooperate with the investigation and continuing to arm the pro Russian fighters.
The president of the European Council, Herman van Rompuy, and the head of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso wrote:Illegal annexation of territory and deliberate destabilisation of a neighbouring sovereign country could not be accepted in 21st-century Europe. When the violence created spirals out of control and leads to the killing of almost 300 innocent civilians in their flight from the Netherlands to Malaysia, the situation requires urgent and determined response
Which is a strong statement of principle that one hopes could apply everywhere.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby EMTP » Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:24 am UTC

BeerBottle wrote:So now the EU and US have imposed further sanctions on Russia, apparently for failing to cooperate with the investigation and continuing to arm the pro Russian fighters.
The president of the European Council, Herman van Rompuy, and the head of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso wrote:Illegal annexation of territory and deliberate destabilisation of a neighbouring sovereign country could not be accepted in 21st-century Europe. When the violence created spirals out of control and leads to the killing of almost 300 innocent civilians in their flight from the Netherlands to Malaysia, the situation requires urgent and determined response
Which is a strong statement of principle that one hopes could apply everywhere.


Indeed.

I like many progressives have sometimes been frustrated with Obama's slow, calm, deliberate, undramatic approach to issues. But he is really quite effective when you get right down to it. No more Gaddafi, no more chemical weapons in Syria. And hardly is the ink dry on the many, many rightist screeds bemoaning Obama's weak and diffident approach to Putin's aggression, and all of a sudden Russia's stock market has lost a hundred billion dollars and Putin's nuts are in a vice.

Tragic human cost aside, it's kinda fun to watch. As Andrew Sullivan says, meep meep.
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Derek
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Derek » Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:16 am UTC

BeerBottle wrote:
The president of the European Council, Herman van Rompuy, and the head of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso wrote:Illegal annexation of territory and deliberate destabilisation of a neighbouring sovereign country could not be accepted in 21st-century Europe. When the violence created spirals out of control and leads to the killing of almost 300 innocent civilians in their flight from the Netherlands to Malaysia, the situation requires urgent and determined response
Which is a strong statement of principle that one hopes could apply everywhere.

Wow, I'm kind of impressed to see such a strong statement after Europe has been so quiet throughout most of this.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:16 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:
BeerBottle wrote:So now the EU and US have imposed further sanctions on Russia, apparently for failing to cooperate with the investigation and continuing to arm the pro Russian fighters.
The president of the European Council, Herman van Rompuy, and the head of the European Commission, José Manuel Barroso wrote:Illegal annexation of territory and deliberate destabilisation of a neighbouring sovereign country could not be accepted in 21st-century Europe. When the violence created spirals out of control and leads to the killing of almost 300 innocent civilians in their flight from the Netherlands to Malaysia, the situation requires urgent and determined response
Which is a strong statement of principle that one hopes could apply everywhere.


Indeed.

I like many progressives have sometimes been frustrated with Obama's slow, calm, deliberate, undramatic approach to issues. But he is really quite effective when you get right down to it. No more Gaddafi, no more chemical weapons in Syria. And hardly is the ink dry on the many, many rightist screeds bemoaning Obama's weak and diffident approach to Putin's aggression, and all of a sudden Russia's stock market has lost a hundred billion dollars and Putin's nuts are in a vice.

Tragic human cost aside, it's kinda fun to watch. As Andrew Sullivan says, meep meep.


Pretty sure Syria is still using chem weapons.

leady
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby leady » Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:43 pm UTC

Putin controls all the soldiers, tanks, planes, police and the FSB - I'd be very suprised if he cares about stock prices. Some rich Russians might, but its hard to complain in a country where bad things can happen to moaners.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby PolakoVoador » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:25 pm UTC

Victim's parents firmly believe their daughter is still alive, threatened to sue anyone who suggested — without evidence — that she was dead.

They imagine the people from Donetsk, supposedly the first ones to arrive at the crash site, could've taken survivors to safety, their daguther among them. I... I don't know how to react to this. It's such a desperate situation, I'm sure I've never felt anything similar to what they are going through right now.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:34 pm UTC

leady wrote:Putin controls all the soldiers, tanks, planes, police and the FSB - I'd be very suprised if he cares about stock prices. Some rich Russians might, but its hard to complain in a country where bad things can happen to moaners.


He has enjoyed something like an 80% approval rating as a result of the Ukranian expedition...I think he's doing fairly well on that front. Even before we get into his ability to utilize force, it seems that Russian nationalism sells. This is a misstep for them, to be sure, but it is unlikely to be a serious threat to Putin.

The victim's parents are...unlikely to find any happy outcome, I fear. Survival from that sort of a crash seems deeply unlikely.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby sardia » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:55 pm UTC

The media there is also controlled by putins party. So it'll be hard to convince Russians that invading Ukraine is a bAd idea. Maybe Putin will lose favor if he lets the sanctions spiral out of control but I'm not sure if Europe is willing to hurt themselves to push Putin. Take France, they continued the sale of advanced warships. The sanctions conveniently left that sale out of the sanctions list.

Edit. Posted from phone. Sorry.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:07 pm UTC

sardia wrote:The media there is also controlled by putins party. So it'll be hard to convince Russians that invading Ukraine is a bAd idea. Maybe Putin will lose favor if he lets the sanctions spiral out of control but I'm not sure if Europe is willing to hurt themselves to push Putin. Take France, they continued the sale of advanced warships. The sanctions conveniently left that sale out of the sanctions list.


Right. I'm not all that impressed by the "strength" of the statement. Saying "violence spiraled out of control" is...not exactly the same as directly addressing Russia for it's direct involvement. The implications are clear, but they stop short of directly pointing the finger. And the sanctions are...not THAT strong.

I'm still convinced that political will is that strong in Europe to do something.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby aoeu » Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:33 pm UTC

Over here the figures that get repeated are that if the Russian economy drops 3% we drop 0.5%

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby Lucrece » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:24 am UTC

sardia wrote:The media there is also controlled by putins party. So it'll be hard to convince Russians that invading Ukraine is a bAd idea. Maybe Putin will lose favor if he lets the sanctions spiral out of control but I'm not sure if Europe is willing to hurt themselves to push Putin. Take France, they continued the sale of advanced warships. The sanctions conveniently left that sale out of the sanctions list.

Edit. Posted from phone. Sorry.


It has hardly anything to do with the media. Ethnic supremacy has been on the rise in eastern Europe for a while. Russians support Putin because quite frankly a good portion if not the majority of Russians have a united ethnic identity that's easy to exploit by groups mimicking Neo-Nazi right wing culture, and the Orthodox Church has happily played its part.

And they don't even care about worldwide opinion. They're a power of their own and have no love for the western perspective. They do tribalism really, really well.
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby jestingrabbit » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:16 am UTC

Regarding whether sanctions against the Russians are a lever, German intelligence strongly believes they are.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... iners.html

Hopefully the OSCE/dutch/australian expedition can get to the site soon.
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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby johnny_7713 » Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:19 am UTC

The Dutch website nu.nl is reporting at least part of the convoy has made it to the crash site. Of course the issue is that just one day at the site is not enough, so hopefully they can keep the route open.

http://www.nu.nl/vliegramp-oekraine/384 ... -mh17.html

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby jestingrabbit » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:45 pm UTC

johnny_7713 wrote:The Dutch website nu.nl is reporting at least part of the convoy has made it to the crash site. Of course the issue is that just one day at the site is not enough, so hopefully they can keep the route open.

http://www.nu.nl/vliegramp-oekraine/384 ... -mh17.html


Yeah, the estimates I'm hearing are about 3 weeks to get it done. Given that there were about 3 days of failure before this one success, it could take a *long* time.
ameretrifle wrote:Magic space feudalism is therefore a viable idea.

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Re: MH17 Shot Down Over Ukraine-Russian Border

Postby jestingrabbit » Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:40 pm UTC

First day of access for the full 70 strong team.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/australians ... zzp6f.html

The osce team has also shifted base to Soledar, a town about 50km north of Donetsk. Its about the same distance from the crash site, but its supposed to give them a shorter path there.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014 ... -osce-says
ameretrifle wrote:Magic space feudalism is therefore a viable idea.


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