Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
skeptical scientist
closed-minded spiritualist
Posts: 6142
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:09 am UTC
Location: San Francisco

Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby skeptical scientist » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:37 pm UTC

Vatican signals more tolerance toward gays and remarriage.
Excerpt wrote:A final document will be issued by the synod next week. Though the gathering is unlikely to change church doctrine, its conversation will set — and potentially change — both the tone and the practice of the faith in parishes around the world.

Signaling the direction they are heading, the bishops called for a more merciful approach toward the faithful who stray from the Catholic ideal, citing the need for “courageous pastoral choices” to reflect the current plurality of relationships outside the traditional family model.

They urged pastors, for instance, to be more welcoming to gays, who have “gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community.” And it called on pastors to treat divorced Catholics who have remarried civilly with respect, “avoiding any language or behavior that might make them feel discriminated against.”

The document, however, left open to further debate the contentious question of whether they might receive communion, merely expounding the contrasting positions on the extremely sensitive issue.

“The Church turns respectfully to those who participate in her life in an incomplete and imperfect way, appreciating the positive values they contain rather than their limitations and shortcoming,” the bishops said.

I have my problems with the Catholic church (as was probably evident from the title I chose), but this signals a positive direction. We will have to see what the document itself says once it is finished—I'm sure there will be plenty to criticize—but hopefully this will allow some of the more catholic nations to improve their position on homosexuality. Probably won't help the situation in Russia any though...
I'm looking forward to the day when the SNES emulator on my computer works by emulating the elementary particles in an actual, physical box with Nintendo stamped on the side.

"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson

DSenette
Posts: 2418
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:08 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby DSenette » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:11 pm UTC

telling someone that their very being.....a core feature of their existence....is an affront to a god that supposedly created them for the sole purpose of loving them...and that they're going to hell....but still being polite to them when you preach to them that they are in fact going to burn in hell for who they are, is duplicitous and ultimately disgusting. at least with the wacko southern Baptists....they tell you they hate you to your face.
The Righteous Hand Of Retribution
"The evaporation of 4 million who believe this crap would leave the world an instantly better place." ~Andre Codresu (re: "the Rapture")

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:23 pm UTC

Meh, rules gonna be rules. The Church taking the stance of 'They aren't following our rules, but we can't be dicks to them' is an enormously human outlook. I don't care if a group wants to have exclusive rules, I really don't, I care when they foist those rules on others. If you want to claim marriage is between a man and a woman and fucking is only for making babies, that's fine, have at it, just keep that shit to yourself.

Which is what the Church seems to be getting up to.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
Vahir
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:20 pm UTC
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Vahir » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:04 pm UTC

skeptical scientist wrote:Probably won't help the situation in Russia any though...


The Orthodox Church Is probably too fragmented to ever try reforming its values. That's the plus of the catholic model- If the pope is a progressive, stuff actually gets done.

Derek
Posts: 2180
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Derek » Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:31 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:telling someone that their very being.....a core feature of their existence....is an affront to a god that supposedly created them for the sole purpose of loving them...and that they're going to hell....but still being polite to them when you preach to them that they are in fact going to burn in hell for who they are, is duplicitous and ultimately disgusting. at least with the wacko southern Baptists....they tell you they hate you to your face.

Sure, but the Catholic Church suddenly radically changing it's interpretation of the Bible is not very likely.

User avatar
TheGrammarBolshevik
Posts: 4878
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:12 am UTC
Location: Going to and fro in the earth, and walking up and down in it.

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:26 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:telling someone that their very being.....a core feature of their existence....is an affront to a god that supposedly created them for the sole purpose of loving them...and that they're going to hell....but still being polite to them when you preach to them that they are in fact going to burn in hell for who they are, is duplicitous and ultimately disgusting. at least with the wacko southern Baptists....they tell you they hate you to your face.

The Catholic Church does not say that gay people will burn in hell for being gay.
Nothing rhymes with orange,
Not even sporange.

User avatar
Djehutynakht
Posts: 1546
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:37 am UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Djehutynakht » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:21 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:The Catholic Church does not say that gay people will burn in hell for being gay.


Technically... but you can't be actively gay (practice your gay-ness?) without committing a sin. (I forget though if it's one of those "nope, you're going to hell" sins or if it's one of those "you have to spend some time in purgatory to atone" sins).

Which isn't that much better. Then again, asking gay people to be celibate isn't something the Catholic Church focuses on them exclusively. They demand it of pretty much anyone who's not a married man and woman, with each other.

Vahir wrote:That's the plus of the catholic model- If the pope is a progressive, stuff actually gets done.


Eh. But Popes have limits.

For instance, even though it would probably be pretty feasible to ease gay marriage onto, say, American/Canadian/European Catholics, who are sort of split on the issue (like their at-large communities) declaring it would mean an issue for congregations in places like, say, Africa and the Philippines. African Catholic disapproval ratings of same-sex marriage are at something like 99% (in line with much of the continent). So telling them that same-sex marriage is okay is probably something that would not go well at all. And the Catholic Church is very worried of losing parishioners to splinter sects and Evangelical Protestant churches.

So the Pope has to take a moderate approach.

Tirian
Posts: 1891
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:03 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Tirian » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:01 am UTC

Vahir wrote:That's the plus of the catholic model- If the pope is a progressive, stuff actually gets done.


Francis is hardly progressive. One might say that the notion that Christianity is about more than beating up gays and women seeking abortions goes back to the first century.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:49 pm UTC

The amount of 'progress' someone attempts is what makes that person a 'progressive'.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:06 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:telling someone that their very being.....a core feature of their existence....is an affront to a god that supposedly created them for the sole purpose of loving them...and that they're going to hell....but still being polite to them when you preach to them that they are in fact going to burn in hell for who they are, is duplicitous and ultimately disgusting. at least with the wacko southern Baptists....they tell you they hate you to your face.


Honesty can be refreshing at times, but politeness does make society work. It's a good policy for the church, at minimum. Being publicly obnoxious makes you few friends.

I'm not catholic, but this pope seems to be doing solid work on improving the church's image. Obviously, I don't agree with him on everything, but progress is still progress.

leady
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:28 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby leady » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:34 pm UTC

I think I prefer my religons to stay honest and atrophy

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:41 pm UTC

leady wrote:I think I prefer my religons to stay honest and atrophy


While it'd be nice to have a truly rationalist country even as an experiment, the empirical result of 'religious atrophy' is a new, often worse religion attempting to take its place. And eventually the new one usually mellows out a bit, but it can take a century or so.

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:41 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:telling someone that their very being.....a core feature of their existence....is an affront to a god that supposedly created them for the sole purpose of loving them...and that they're going to hell....but still being polite to them when you preach to them that they are in fact going to burn in hell for who they are, is duplicitous and ultimately disgusting. at least with the wacko southern Baptists....they tell you they hate you to your face.

Isn't that what pretty much every Abrahamic church says to every single person? I thought that was what Original Sin amounted to.

In any case, the Catholic Church isn't really big on hell anyway (and at least, hasn't been for a few centuries). They're the guys who set up indulgences, remember?

Technically... but you can't be actively gay (practice your gay-ness?) without committing a sin. (I forget though if it's one of those "nope, you're going to hell" sins or if it's one of those "you have to spend some time in purgatory to atone" sins).

For it to be a "nope, you're going to hell", it would have to be blasphemy against God, which is further watered down by being basically defined as "absolutely 100% refusing to repent". Even excommunication only makes it more difficult to be part of the community, rather than being an "I DAMN YOU TO HELL!" situation.

Roman Catholicism is pretty hardline on there not being anything you could do that would kick you out, as long as you want to get in. This has the inverse effect of...not really scaring a lot of the "faithful" from doing some seriously "sketchy" shit, as long as they plan to ask for forgiveness before they die.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:10 pm UTC

leady wrote:I think I prefer my religons to stay honest and atrophy


That can also lead to improvement, sure.

But if they're learning to at least slowly embrace improvement, that's still a positive quality. I don't much care about which label is attached to behaviors...it's the behaviors themselves that need to change. It can happen via power structures being displaced or by them changing, but the change is what really matters.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:26 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
DSenette wrote:telling someone that their very being.....a core feature of their existence....is an affront to a god that supposedly created them for the sole purpose of loving them...and that they're going to hell....but still being polite to them when you preach to them that they are in fact going to burn in hell for who they are, is duplicitous and ultimately disgusting. at least with the wacko southern Baptists....they tell you they hate you to your face.

Isn't that what pretty much every Abrahamic church says to every single person? I thought that was what Original Sin amounted to.


Jews don't believe in Original Sin, and you still go to heaven if you aren't Jewish so long as you don't murder, steal, etc.

User avatar
Vahir
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:20 pm UTC
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Vahir » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:11 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:
DSenette wrote:telling someone that their very being.....a core feature of their existence....is an affront to a god that supposedly created them for the sole purpose of loving them...and that they're going to hell....but still being polite to them when you preach to them that they are in fact going to burn in hell for who they are, is duplicitous and ultimately disgusting. at least with the wacko southern Baptists....they tell you they hate you to your face.

Isn't that what pretty much every Abrahamic church says to every single person? I thought that was what Original Sin amounted to.


Jews don't believe in Original Sin, and you still go to heaven if you aren't Jewish so long as you don't murder, steal, etc.


To add to this, catholic doctrine holds that the original sin did exist and meant that people were sinful-until-proven-pious up until the death of JC, who died for mankind, thereby making up for the sin and putting everyone into born-pious mode again. Thus the phrase "died for our sins". I can't speak for the Orthodox/Protestants/ect.'s position on this though.

User avatar
Djehutynakht
Posts: 1546
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:37 am UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Djehutynakht » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:46 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:To add to this, catholic doctrine holds that the original sin did exist and meant that people were sinful-until-proven-pious up until the death of JC, who died for mankind, thereby making up for the sin and putting everyone into born-pious mode again. Thus the phrase "died for our sins". I can't speak for the Orthodox/Protestants/ect.'s position on this though.


Sort of.

Catholics believe everyone human since "Adam and Eve" (it's now perfectly fine, and widely held, to consider that story a metaphor), with the exception of the Virgin Mary (maybe Jesus? Or perhaps not) is born with "Original Sin". Essentially the ideas that all humans are essentially flawed. We all essentially have some sort of sin around us. None of us are perfect, perhaps at the very least it's the collective past of humankind... etc. I'm not really sure. But all humans are born with some sort of innate sinfulness (flaw) to them.

And that's what Baptism is for. It gets rid of original sin, therefore putting you in an all-alright mode until you screw up of your own, conscious volition.

Jesus himself was baptized so... maybe the human part of him had original sin? I don't know.

operagost
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:23 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby operagost » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:51 pm UTC

I have to say the title of this threat is flat out trollish. How about, "Catholic church possibly becoming more tolerant"?

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:03 pm UTC

operagost wrote:I have to say the title of this threat is flat out trollish. How about, "Catholic church possibly becoming more tolerant"?


When the Church is more accurately described as 'tolerant' than 'intolerant', then we can discuss them as 'becoming more tolerant' than 'becoming less intolerant'.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:06 pm UTC

operagost wrote:I have to say the title of this threat is flat out trollish. How about, "Catholic church possibly becoming more tolerant"?


*shrug* It seems factual enough. Either title seems decently accurate, and logically equivalent, unless one wishes to avoid the fact of current intolerance.

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:56 pm UTC

operagost wrote:I have to say the title of this threat is flat out trollish. How about, "Catholic church possibly becoming more tolerant"?

Tolerance is a privative -- it is the absence of intolerance and injustice. In any meaningful sense, you can't become "more tolerant", just like you can't become "more cold" or "more dark". You can't quantify tolerance, only intolerance.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

User avatar
Vahir
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:20 pm UTC
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Vahir » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:41 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
operagost wrote:I have to say the title of this threat is flat out trollish. How about, "Catholic church possibly becoming more tolerant"?

Tolerance is a privative -- it is the absence of intolerance and injustice. In any meaningful sense, you can't become "more tolerant", just like you can't become "more cold" or "more dark". You can't quantify tolerance, only intolerance.


Well, you CAN quantify cold and dark, by saying "It's 30 degrees colder here", or "this room is darker than the other one". And if you can't quantify tolerance, then intolerance shouldn't be quantifiable either.

Derek
Posts: 2180
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Derek » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:44 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:Tolerance is a privative -- it is the absence of intolerance and injustice. In any meaningful sense, you can't become "more tolerant", just like you can't become "more cold" or "more dark". You can't quantify tolerance, only intolerance.

Umm, it is perfectly easy to quantify cold and dark. 1/temperature and 1/light are good places to start (and there is an argument to be made that 1/temperature is in fact a more natural measurement). In general, for anything that is measurable, it's opposite is measurable as well, and to become more of one is to become less of the other.

User avatar
Paul in Saudi
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:52 pm UTC
Location: Dammam, Saudi Arabia

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Paul in Saudi » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:39 am UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:Technically... but you can't be actively gay (practice your gay-ness?) without committing a sin.


Well of course the first thing you learn in law school is if something is technically true, then it is true. But, bethatasitmay....

You cannot live on planet earth without sinning. We are all sinners. Gay people are sinners too. There is no difference morally between the Pope and the gay people practicing their full gay-osity. We are sinners one and all.

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby KrytenKoro » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:21 pm UTC

Derek wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:Tolerance is a privative -- it is the absence of intolerance and injustice. In any meaningful sense, you can't become "more tolerant", just like you can't become "more cold" or "more dark". You can't quantify tolerance, only intolerance.

Umm, it is perfectly easy to quantify cold and dark. 1/temperature and 1/light are good places to start (and there is an argument to be made that 1/temperature is in fact a more natural measurement). In general, for anything that is measurable, it's opposite is measurable as well, and to become more of one is to become less of the other.

You're not quantifying light and dark, there, you're comparing the quantity of heat/light in one system to that in another.

In general, for anything that is measurable, it's opposite is measurable as well, and to become more of one is to become less of the other.

This sentence is the exact concept that doesn't apply to cold, or dark, or quiet, and is why you can't quantify them. You can't make a gun that "shoots darkness", or a lens that "focuses cold". People have tried. It's why cold is considered a privative.

Well, you CAN quantify cold and dark, by saying "It's 30 degrees colder here", or "this room is darker than the other one". And if you can't quantify tolerance, then intolerance shouldn't be quantifiable either.

Like I said, that's not quantifying cold and dark, that's comparing light and heat. Seriously, look up the definition of the word privative and how it's used, I provided it for a reason and it's hardly a controversial concept.

If you want a humorous exploration of the concept, take a look at Discworld's "Knurd" or "Anti-sound". The way you two have answered is a classic misunderstanding of quantification and measurement, a well-known bug in the brain's programming.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

User avatar
PAstrychef
for all intimate metaphysical encounters
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:24 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby PAstrychef » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:56 pm UTC

It seems the pope is playing a good PR game. He says that the church will reexamine certain ideas and the media go wild with praise. Then the reexamination occurs, the bishops decide the satus quo is good, and nothing changes except more people think the church is willing to change.
Don’t become a well-rounded person. Well rounded people are smooth and dull. Become a thoroughly spiky person. Grow spikes from every angle. Stick in their throats like a puffer fish.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:58 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:You can't make a gun that "shoots darkness",


Another dream shattered.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:38 pm UTC

You have it backwards; intolerance is the stuff you add, not tolerance. Tolerance is the default, by doing absolutely nothing to something else that doesn't affect you.

KrytenKoro
Posts: 1487
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby KrytenKoro » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:08 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:You have it backwards; intolerance is the stuff you add, not tolerance. Tolerance is the default, by doing absolutely nothing to something else that doesn't affect you.

If you're replying to me, then yes, that is the point I'm trying to make. Tolerance is a privative -- it is the absence of intolerance, just as silence, or cold, or darkness would be the default if sound, heat, and light weren't present.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

cphite
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby cphite » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:26 pm UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:The Catholic Church does not say that gay people will burn in hell for being gay.


Technically... but you can't be actively gay (practice your gay-ness?) without committing a sin. (I forget though if it's one of those "nope, you're going to hell" sins or if it's one of those "you have to spend some time in purgatory to atone" sins).


As far as the Catholic Church goes, it's actually pretty difficult to commit a "nope, you're going to hell" grade of sin. You basically have to do something, deliberately, that you know and believe to be sin, and be unrepentant about doing it. The Church is absolutely huge on forgiveness; it's kind of their main thing.

Which isn't that much better.


Well, if you take them literally then "some time in purgatory" is definitely much better than hell... :twisted:

But that really isn't the point... what you're saying implies that the Church is somehow obligated to set up it's rules according to what the rest of society thinks they ought to be. It doesn't work that way.

Then again, asking gay people to be celibate isn't something the Catholic Church focuses on them exclusively. They demand it of pretty much anyone who's not a married man and woman, with each other.


Correct; the sin being committed by active gay couples is technically the same sin being committed by unwed active straight couples.

A lot of people are calling this statement by Francis to be some kind of major change; it really isn't. Gays have been welcomed into the Church for years; decades even. I know several open gay couples who are actively Catholic. When I was a kid - we're talking 30 years ago, our next door neighbor was gay... people weren't generally open back then, but it was a poorly kept secret in his case; and he was an usher for the Church.

And while their activity is still deemed to be sinful, it really isn't any different than the sins being committed by all manner of Catholics everywhere... A lot of people see something called "sin" and assume that it's an absolute thing; that it means the person is being utterly condemned. In reality that is very, very rarely the case.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:35 pm UTC

A gay couple has as much chance of reproducing as a sterile straight couple. Therefore, gay sex is just as ok as old people sex.

Unless it's not so much 'no procreating' as it is 'unmarried'; then let gay people marry and the sin is gone!

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6782
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby sardia » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:18 pm UTC

Cphite, religion and Christianity in particular change sits rules an interpretation all the time. It's only slow due to bureaucracy inertia.

Derek
Posts: 2180
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Derek » Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:26 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:A gay couple has as much chance of reproducing as a sterile straight couple. Therefore, gay sex is just as ok as old people sex.

Unless it's not so much 'no procreating' as it is 'unmarried'; then let gay people marry and the sin is gone!

Ah, but God only recognizes marriage between a man and a woman, don't you know?

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:36 am UTC

Not true, God also recognizes marriages of a rapist and his victim.

And a master and his slave.
And a man and several wives (but NOT sisters; no twin fantasies).
And a man and his prisoner of war.
And a man and his brother's widow.
And a man and his wife's slave.
And a man and his concubine.
And a man and his mistress, so long as she wasn't married to someone else (counts as concubine, but if she tries to marry someone else it's execution time).

Derek
Posts: 2180
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Derek » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:09 am UTC

Silly me, I forgot how tolerant of alternative relationships God is.

User avatar
Paul in Saudi
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:52 pm UTC
Location: Dammam, Saudi Arabia

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Paul in Saudi » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:47 am UTC

I am unaware of any reason to object to a widow marrying her husband's brother. Please enlighten me.

User avatar
Djehutynakht
Posts: 1546
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:37 am UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Djehutynakht » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:08 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Not true, God also recognizes marriages of a rapist and his victim.

And a master and his slave.
And a man and several wives (but NOT sisters; no twin fantasies).
And a man and his prisoner of war.
And a man and his brother's widow.
And a man and his wife's slave.
And a man and his concubine.
And a man and his mistress, so long as she wasn't married to someone else (counts as concubine, but if she tries to marry someone else it's execution time).



Well for Christians this is somewhat irrelevant, given these are Old Testament passages. Christians believe that the coming of Jesus essentially replaced large parts of the Old Testament (for instance, "thou shalt circumcise all males" and "thou shalt adhere to a kosher diet" are no longer requirements, though they're in the Old Testament). However, some parts of the Old Testament still do apply... the ban on homosexual acts, for instance.

I'm honestly not sure what the justification is for what still applies versus what doesn't (though I'm sure it could be argued against as well. Much of it is likely interpretation based on culture).

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:43 am UTC

Paul in Saudi wrote:I am unaware of any reason to object to a widow marrying her husband's brother. Please enlighten me.


You apparently don't know the law; a brother MUST marry his brother's widow.

Djehutynakht wrote:
Well for Christians this is somewhat irrelevant, given these are Old Testament passages. Christians believe that the coming of Jesus essentially replaced large parts of the Old Testament (for instance, "thou shalt circumcise all males" and "thou shalt adhere to a kosher diet" are no longer requirements, though they're in the Old Testament). However, some parts of the Old Testament still do apply... the ban on homosexual acts, for instance.

I'm honestly not sure what the justification is for what still applies versus what doesn't (though I'm sure it could be argued against as well. Much of it is likely interpretation based on culture).


It's really "whatever passages we want". Because every religion says whatever the people in charge want it to say.

User avatar
mobiusstripsearch
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:21 am UTC

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby mobiusstripsearch » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:30 am UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:The Catholic Church does not say that gay people will burn in hell for being gay.


Technically... but you can't be actively gay (practice your gay-ness?) without committing a sin. (I forget though if it's one of those "nope, you're going to hell" sins or if it's one of those "you have to spend some time in purgatory to atone" sins).


I think you have it mostly right. Everyone is a sinner. Christ came to Earth to redeem sinners. I don't pretend to speak for God, but the Bible does not seem very concerned with homosexuality. Murder, adultery, idolatry, etc., are much bigger concerns talked about much more frequently.

DSenette wrote:telling someone that their very being.....a core feature of their existence....is an affront to a god that supposedly created them for the sole purpose of loving them...and that they're going to hell....but still being polite to them when you preach to them that they are in fact going to burn in hell for who they are, is duplicitous and ultimately disgusting. at least with the wacko southern Baptists....they tell you they hate you to your face.


The Church as a whole, at least the Catholic part, definitely does not do this.

Izawwlgood wrote:\If you want to claim marriage is between a man and a woman and fucking is only for making babies, that's fine, have at it, just keep that shit to yourself.

Which is what the Church seems to be getting up to.


This is a very odd historical perspective. Marriage has been between women and men (especially for creating households to raise the next generation) for thousands of years. Sure, we're allowed to change that definition -- but claiming that the original definition is the abnormal one is itself abnormal.

___________

I'm a gay Catholic and much prefer that the Church does not change its position. Its current position is rooted in the Bible; any change that comes from outside the faith undermines its texts and traditions. We're not talking about homosexuality out of theological passion: many dislike the Church's position because it conflicts their own.

Anyone can quote Leviticus to say something absurd. But did Jesus [url="http://www.gci.org/law/otl10"]fulfill the law and make Leviticus unnecessary[/url], or were those laws only given to a
http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_OldTestamentLaw.htm wrote: specific people (the Israelites) at a specific moment,
or did Jesus affirm that [url="http://biblehub.com/mark/12-29.htm"]these laws were not terribly important[/url]?

It's complicated. And still, for thousands of years, people considered themselves good Christians without stoning whores, consecrating marriages with rapists, and mixing different kinds of cloth.

Here is something the New Testament does say about Homosexuality:

Spoiler:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.


-- Romans 1:18-25, New International Version.

This is an uncomfortable passage. It rather implies that sin causes homosexuality and not the opposite. These are only the words of Paul, a man, but the Church's position is that they were divinely inspired. So if the Church were to change its position on this passage (which is not what's happening), is Paul still divinely inspired?

It's probably not an interesting question. But it's one worth asking if we're actually concerned about Church doctrines.

Otherwise, no concessions the Church makes to homosexuality will really be enough for anyone posting here.
"The inward skies of man will accompany him across any void upon which he ventures and will be with him to the end of time." -- Loren Eiseley

User avatar
Paul in Saudi
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:52 pm UTC
Location: Dammam, Saudi Arabia

Re: Catholic church possibly becoming less intolerant

Postby Paul in Saudi » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:16 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:You apparently don't know the law; a brother MUST marry his brother's widow.


Well my parrot is named Onan. I suppose my Genesis is pretty strong. As I mentioned, I am unaware why some think marrying your brother's widow is wrong. Please expand on your thoughts, they fascinate me.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dauric and 18 guests