Gamergate

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wumpus
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Re: Gamergate

Postby wumpus » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:13 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Video Games is even younger, being mainstream for less than 40.


In 1972, Atari dumbed down video games all it could to produce "PONG". I'd claim it was mainstream and more than 40 years ago.

Time flies.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby firechicago » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:49 pm UTC

Film Critic Hulk expresses my feelings about gamergate far better than I ever could.

One particularly important passage:

Film Critic Hulk wrote:WHEN HULK ENGAGES WITH EVEN THE MOST STRIDENT GROUPS OUTLINED ABOVE, YOU CAN GET DOWN TO THE DIFFERENCE IN VIEWPOINT. YOU CAN SOMEHOW PARSE OUT A CORE NUGGET AND FIND WHICH THINGS ARE BELIEVED BY WHOM. EVEN WITH STORMFRONT, THE CORE DIFFERENCE IS THAT THEY HAVE THE EGREGIOUS BELIEF THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE SUPERIOR AND OTHER RACES ARE INFERIOR. IT IS THE MOST INHUMAN, DISGUSTING VIEW IN THE WORLD. BUT THEY WEAR THIS ON THEIR SLEEVES. THEY HAVE IT IN THEIR CREED. WHICH JUST MEANS THE CORE DIFFERENCE IS REALLY, REALLY EASY TO ARTICULATE AND GET TO IN CONVERSATION.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO GAMERGATE, FINDING ANY SINGLE KIND OF POINT TO LOCK ONTO IN TERMS OF THE VIEWPOINT IS IMPOSSIBLE. REALLY. IT'S LIKE TRYING TO TANGO ON QUICKSAND. EVERY TIME YOU GO BEHIND THE CLAIM YOU HIT ANOTHER LIE, ANOTHER THING SOMEONE WILL SAY YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. AND UNLIKE ANY ORGANIZED GROUP, THERE IS NO CENTRAL ETHOS TO REFERENCE AT THE CORE. WHICH JUST MEANS ALL ORGANIZATIONAL STATEMENTS OR INCLINATIONS CAN BE DISAVOWED. THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE MOVEMENT IS ACTIVELY HARASSING WOMEN? "NOPE! THEY'RE JUST THE MINORITY AND NOT PART OF WHAT WE'RE REALLY ABOUT." FOR ANYTHING THAT CAN BE USED TO REVEAL GAMERGATE FOR WHAT IT IS AND WHAT IT IS DOING IS NOT PART OF THE TRUE MOVEMENT. THOSE HARASSERS? THEY ARE JUST MINORITY TROLLS. NEVER MIND THAT HULK CAN TELL YOU FROM THE HUNDREDS OF RESPONSES THAT'S NOT THE CASE. POINT OUT THAT THE MOVEMENT IS ONLY FREQUENTLY TARGETING WOMEN? "NOPE! IT'S ABOUT ETHICS AND THAT'S INCIDENTAL." IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, ALL DISAGREEMENTS BECOME PERSONAL ATTACKS. IT ALL BECOMES A MOVING GOAL POST. THE "TRUTH" OF VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE STEP IS A SHADOW OF SOMETHING THAT CANNOT EVEN BE CONCEIVED, MAYBE EVEN BY THE PERPETRATORS THEMSELVES. BECAUSE THE ONE THING HULK CANNOT GET ANY SINGLE ONE OF THEM TO DO IS OUTLINE SOMETHING POSITIVE THEY ARE ACCOMPLISHING THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT SEEM LIKE THEY ARE TRYING TO ERADICATE FEMINIST INFLUENCE IN GAMING. INSTEAD, THEY JUST CLING SO DESPERATELY TO THE THOSE POSITIVE WORDS THEY SAY THEY REPRESENT AND LASH OUT AGAINST ANY AND ALL THREATS. THE END RESULT IS YOU CAN'T EVEN GET TO THE NUGGET OF DISAGREEMENT ON THE WORLD VIEW. THERE IS NO WORLD VIEW. THERE IS ONLY THE ATTACK AND THE RESPONSE.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby leady » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:17 pm UTC

BECAUSE THE ONE THING HULK CANNOT GET ANY SINGLE ONE OF THEM TO DO IS OUTLINE SOMETHING POSITIVE THEY ARE ACCOMPLISHING THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT SEEM LIKE THEY ARE TRYING TO ERADICATE FEMINIST INFLUENCE IN GAMING


I suspect that they consider this positive

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:24 pm UTC

Forest Goose wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:A more logical interpretation is that there's a link between competition and aggressiveness. The "video game" aspect does not seem at all important to the test.

And yes, even competitions with video games where the competitors are around each other do not seem rife with violence. Some smack talk, sure. But I'd bet that abstracting competition to competing in a video game rather than, yknow, physically hitting each other probably results in less actual violence.


One of the articles I linked to suggests that the aggression is not caused by "violence" in the game nor "violent games", but by how frustrating the game is or, perhaps, how challenging it is. So a game of petting puppies till they are happy in a wonderful world of fluffy things, but with a horrible control scheme and tedious set of objectives may raise aggression levels more than "Beat The Hooker For Fun and Profit 7" if BTHFFAP7 is more straightforward. --Note: I'm not taking these results as absolutely granted, but there is a logic to them.

I do agree that competition seems to raise aggression level; I'm also of the opinion that this is not a necessarily bad thing, nor cause for alarm. Aggression, by itself, is not a bad thing and can be put to good purposes. Just as with anger, fear, or anything else - getting riled up can make you beat your partner, it can also incite you to get off of your ass and make things better. Tests showing that games and competition increase aggression, even if that is perfectly accurate, are a long way from showing that this leads to harmful expression of said moods and impulse.


That does seem possible. As this sort of game was...not really even a game, drawing the connection to gaming seems tenuous. It definitely does not seem to model real life gaming.

I'm not trying to frame competition as inherently bad or anything, but a competition/aggression link seems likely given the data, and seems reasonable. As mentioned, aggression is not always violence. Channeling aggression into non-violent mediums actually seems quite useful.

leady wrote:
BECAUSE THE ONE THING HULK CANNOT GET ANY SINGLE ONE OF THEM TO DO IS OUTLINE SOMETHING POSITIVE THEY ARE ACCOMPLISHING THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT SEEM LIKE THEY ARE TRYING TO ERADICATE FEMINIST INFLUENCE IN GAMING


I suspect that they consider this positive


I suspect not. I don't think the have the necessary self awareness, and are viewing themselves as victimized.

This...this is what it all boils down to:
Film Critic Hulk wrote: THERE IS NO WORLD VIEW. THERE IS ONLY THE ATTACK AND THE RESPONSE.


And that's precisely the problem. We are seeing lots and lots of rage, but no true goals, no coordination, just..."those people are against us and they are WRONG, let's get 'em!". This makes the whole affair quite tedious, and obviously unproductive.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby leady » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:31 pm UTC

aye it never interested me, getting boring now

i'm just waiting for GTAV on the PC...

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Zaku » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:50 am UTC


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Re: Gamergate

Postby Dantez » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:08 am UTC

Let me first introduce my viewpoint on this.

I've been a 4chan lurker since before project Chanology. I've participated in DDOSing a couple of times. It was fun while it lasted, it most certainly gave me a nice feeling of power (well, come on, it is actually pretty cool knowing that using a simple program has such a huge effect on a website), and after the battle was "won", I went straight back to lurking. My choice of boards has shifted during the years, from the classical /b/ I've shifted to /lit/, /tv/ and /sp/. I have read through the majority of the ED articles (I even managed to get through the whole Offended page). This does not make me an expert on the community as a whole, but I would like to think that I have spent enough time there to be able to speak about it.

With that said, I think that in order to properly understand GG we need to look back in time a bit. Do you remember the times when the "violence in videogames" cries were supported by lawyers and mainstream media? Trolling, raging and laughter were widespread, especially when there was a public figure to ridicule. A white lawyer wants to ban violent videogames? He won't be able to, but let's troll him anyway. A TV station makes a ridiculous segment about child murders rising due to GTA? Let's ridicule them in turn, since they obviously don't know what they are talking about.

I feel that the gaming scene was a bit more unified these days. Gaming previews, while generally paid by the industry, at least offered an actual look at the game and its content. I remember getting a subscription to a gaming magazine (LEVEL, the Czech version) and looking forward to getting to know about new games, reading articles about some historical figures in the industry, stuff like that. That kind of content appealed to me.

One of the "rules" on 4chan is: "There are no women on the Internet." This is actually fairly clever in its double meaning. Firstly, in the early days of the community, there was a little amount of females actually present, which meant that if somebody claimed to be a female, they probably weren't. The second meaning, however, is supposed to unify. You are Anonymous. It doesn't matter where you are from, what sex you have nor what you pleasure yourself with; you are just a user. Somebody claiming to be a female would be immediately harassed and called "an attention whore" simply because they broke this unity in order to bring attention to themselves. It annoys me when I enter a game of League and somebody acts stereotypically female, not because I hate females, but because I literally don't care about the person's gender in general. I just want to play.

However, when A. Sarkeesian first entered the realm of gaming journalism, the game has changed. She usually saturated her reviews with her "feminist" views, which, to be honest, were largely irrelevant to the quality of the game in itself. I as a gamer did not care whether or not me beating a hooker to death in GTA was mysogenist, I wanted to know if I could actually run the game on my PC, how long it is or the quality of the writing.

Looking back at it, A.S. trolled the gamers hard. She used the typical response of the internet (hatred, spam, trolling etc) to her advantage and to promote her even further into the limelight. Because she broke the "rule", because she didn't offer the typical audience what was expected, she alienated a certain portion of the audience, including me. I like to think of myself as of a reasonable person, so I do not need to be told about what is right or wrong with my interest apart from the technical standpoint.

Then AS's kind of journalism spread to other websites. The more females were allowed into the gaming journalism, the higher their tendency to use feminist view rose, since it instantly generated views and therefore profit. Please note here that I am not against females in any way, shape, or form, I'm just attempting to explain some tendencies. Once have the journalists realized that the mysogeny clickbait works, even the males joined in to get more exposure for themselves. At this point, I have stopped bothering with journalism in general. Why bother reading through the reasons why the game is ethically wrong when I can just look at a gameplay video that tells me exactly what I need? This might be why the discussion at journalist websites declined into flame wars. Nowadays, there is very little that you can discuss without being hated upon by either of the sides.

Now, let's consider all that I wrote. Putting together this break of the gamer unity, resurfacing of the perceived hatred against gamers and the problem solving tendencies of communities like 4chan, it is kind of obvious that this would happen. Only a trigger was necessary, and the trigger was pulled.

I'm sorry for such a lengthy post, but I felt that cutting something out wouldn't allow me to properly express my message. Feel free to debate me, to ask for more or less, just please, keep it civil. Whenever I attempt to discuss this movement, I usually tend to receive quite a lot of harassment without intentionally harassing anyone.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby Zaku » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:24 am UTC

This post of Vox Day, one of the major players of GamerGate, explains the real nature of GamerGate!

At this point, #GamerGate is about more than games now. It is a Schwerpunkt in the ongoing cultural war for the West. And the gamers of #GamerGate are the only defenders of freedom and Western civilization who are counterattacking and causing enemy casualties. That is why it is more than important, it is vital to see non-gamers joining the cause rather than sneering from the sidelines.

Because if the pinkshirts haven’t come after you and yours yet, they assuredly will so long as you have not submitted to them.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Zaku » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:44 am UTC

Dantez wrote:Looking back at it, A.S. trolled the gamers hard



You are right! She deserves the rape and death threats! What a filth feminazi troll!

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Dantez » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:01 am UTC

Zaku wrote:
Dantez wrote:Looking back at it, A.S. trolled the gamers hard



You are right! She deserves the rape and death threats! What a filth feminazi troll!


I like how you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say, nor imply none of that, although you might get that impression. However, please attempt to deny my assumption that A.S. is trolling a certain portion of gamers.

Edited a silly grammar error.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby PAstrychef » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:08 am UTC

Dantez wrote:Let me first introduce my viewpoint on this.

One of the "rules" on 4chan is: "There are no women on the Internet." This is actually fairly clever in its double meaning. Firstly, in the early days of the community, there was a little amount of females actually present, which meant that if somebody claimed to be a female, they probably weren't. The second meaning, however, is supposed to unify. You are Anonymous. It doesn't matter where you are from, what sex you have nor what you pleasure yourself with; you are just a user. Somebody claiming to be a female would be immediately harassed and called "an attention whore" simply because they broke this unity in order to bring attention to themselves. It annoys me when I enter a game of League and somebody acts stereotypically female, not because I hate females, but because I literally don't care about the person's gender in general. I just want to play.

Utter bullshit. It was never about ignoring a players' gender, it was all about bad-mouthing women and not wanting them in the club, unless they were willing to behave just like guys. Because if all you want to do is play, the response to someone appearing to be female is "so what?", not "show me your tits" or "can I fuck you?". And what is the style of play that irritates you? Stereotypically female, you say. What does that look like? Why does it piss you off so much?

However, when A. Sarkeesian first entered the realm of gaming journalism, the game has changed. She usually saturated her reviews with her "feminist" views, which, to be honest, were largely irrelevant to the quality of the game in itself. I as a gamer did not care whether or not me beating a hooker to death in GTA was mysogenist, I wanted to know if I could actually run the game on my PC, how long it is or the quality of the writing.

The whole aim of Feminist Frequency is to make these points. You don't have to agree with her. You don't have to care about her point of view. And you don't think that gratuitous violence against women counts as bad writing. But the appropriate response in that case is to ignore her commentary. Posts about rape, death threats and simple name calling are (as you can see) not the way to show your feelings. And what about the gamers that do care if the games they want to play promote cultural norms they dislike? Shouldn't they have a place to discover that info?
Looking back at it, A.S. trolled the gamers hard. She used the typical response of the internet (hatred, spam, trolling etc) to her advantage and to promote her even further into the limelight. Because she broke the "rule", because she didn't offer the typical audience what was expected, she alienated a certain portion of the audience, including me. I like to think of myself as of a reasonable person, so I do not need to be told about what is right or wrong with my interest apart from the technical standpoint.

We all like to consider ourselves reasonable people. Why does having something that one person thinks is problematic about your choice of entertainment give you leave to behave like a screaming four year old? No one is telling you not to play the games you want to play. But the truth is, there are parts of most video games that do show women in demeaning ways.

Then AS's kind of journalism spread to other websites. The more females were allowed into the gaming journalism, the higher their tendency to use feminist view rose, since it instantly generated views and therefore profit. Please note here that I am not against females in any way, shape, or form, I'm just attempting to explain some tendencies. Once have the journalists realized that the mysogeny clickbait works, even the males joined in to get more exposure for themselves. At this point, I have stopped bothering with journalism in general. Why bother reading through the reasons why the game is ethically wrong when I can just look at a gameplay video that tells me exactly what I need? This might be why the discussion at journalist websites declined into flame wars. Nowadays, there is very little that you can discuss without being hated upon by either of the sides.

So it's all "nobody care what sex you are" until women are "allowed" into the industry. Would you really believe that women could be kept out of it? It sure sounds like you want your boys' only club back. You don't have anything against females except the way they "stereotypically" play games. And you're fine with the ethics of your entertainment experience being fucked up? All you want to know is how technically challenging the game is? Fine. Then ignore the comments, don't respond to them with threats and comments about rape. But when you do pull that shit, don't be surprised by other people not being amused by it.
Now, let's consider all that I wrote. Putting together this break of the gamer unity, resurfacing of the perceived hatred against gamers and the problem solving tendencies of communities like 4chan, it is kind of obvious that this would happen. Only a trigger was necessary, and the trigger was pulled.

I'm sorry for such a lengthy post, but I felt that cutting something out wouldn't allow me to properly express my message. Feel free to debate me, to ask for more or less, just please, keep it civil. Whenever I attempt to discuss this movement, I usually tend to receive quite a lot of harassment without intentionally harassing anyone.

So you admit, right off, that you found DDOS attacks fun and empowering. In other words, you enjoy harassing people you disagree with. Then the general response to the very idea that a gamer could be female is verbal abuse. Then the response to complaints from female gamers about being abused is more abuse. Then women start to comment on the games they are playing, and the response is threats of rape and assault, but you ask US to keep it civil?
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Re: Gamergate

Postby DR6 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:22 am UTC

Dantez wrote:One of the "rules" on 4chan is: "There are no women on the Internet." This is actually fairly clever in its double meaning. Firstly, in the early days of the community, there was a little amount of females actually present, which meant that if somebody claimed to be a female, they probably weren't. The second meaning, however, is supposed to unify. You are Anonymous. It doesn't matter where you are from, what sex you have nor what you pleasure yourself with; you are just a user. Somebody claiming to be a female would be immediately harassed and called "an attention whore" simply because they broke this unity in order to bring attention to themselves. It annoys me when I enter a game of League and somebody acts stereotypically female, not because I hate females, but because I literally don't care about the person's gender in general. I just want to play.


This would kinda barely look like a reasonable argument iff males didn't mention their gender on the internet ever, and no assumptions about gender were ever made on the internet. Instead, males mention their gender on the internet all the time, either explicitly or implicity: it's very hypocritical to jump on women for "bringing attention to themselves" when they are doing the same thing. This is specially true for 4chan, being heavily male dominated. Like, I can see how in some specific cases women may mention their gender where it's not relevant, and that may be in fact drawing attention to themselves, but in the overwhelming majority of cases the opposite happens: the "rule" is used to make a big deal about the gender of a woman, when that wasn't her intention at all. I can't know which of the two cases you see while playing LoL, since I don't know what exactly you mean with "stereotypically female": it's possible that you have a point, but it's also perfectly possible that other users act "stereotypically male" and you don't care about those, thus being unfair to the stereotypically female players.

This is the biggest problem with that "rule", IMO: the blame for the attention women get is placed on the woman rather than at the people paying attention, by default, when in male dominated spaces the latter a much simpler explanation in most cases.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Zaku » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:37 am UTC

Dantez wrote:
Zaku wrote:
Dantez wrote:Looking back at it, A.S. trolled the gamers hard



You are right! She deserves the rape and death threats! What a filth feminazi troll!


I like how you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say, nor imply none of that, although you might get that impression. However, please attempt to deny my assumption that A.S. is trolling a certain portion of gamers.

Edited a silly grammar error.


Really? I don't f****ing care how serious are her "crimes" in your imagination, because they pale in comparison of GG responses.

And how good was your strategy? She get invited by Colbert and wrote for NyT.

Congratulations.

Edit: "The Leader of GamerGate wrote this and you are talking about the faults of A.S.? Really'

Image

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Zaku » Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:46 am UTC

Zoe Quinn did a heartbreaking BBC interview.

I found it difficult to watch. No one deserves to be put through the things she has.

But, Dantez , perhaps GG are rights! She deserved everything and she is a professional victim!

Because, you know, actually it's about ethics in game journalism!

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Chen » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:36 pm UTC

Dantez wrote:Looking back at it, A.S. trolled the gamers hard. She used the typical response of the internet (hatred, spam, trolling etc) to her advantage and to promote her even further into the limelight. Because she broke the "rule", because she didn't offer the typical audience what was expected, she alienated a certain portion of the audience, including me. I like to think of myself as of a reasonable person, so I do not need to be told about what is right or wrong with my interest apart from the technical standpoint.


How is that trolling? Her videos are for a completely different purpose than just reviewing a game from a technical standpoint. Her audience is not the people who are trying to determine if the game that just came out is worth buying or not. You know what you're getting into if you're watching her videos. She may have alienated some gamers but it's highly unlikely those were ever intended to be part of her audience anyways.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Zaku » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:45 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
How is that trolling? Her videos are for a completely different purpose than just reviewing a game from a technical standpoint. Her audience is not the people who are trying to determine if the game that just came out is worth buying or not. You know what you're getting into if you're watching her videos. She may have alienated some gamers but it's highly unlikely those were ever intended to be part of her audience anyways.


You don't understand. Actually, it's about ethics. Or feminazi conspiracy. Or whatever.

Really, I tried to have a conversation with GGers in the past and it's only a waste of time.

I believe this comic is a perfect representation of every. Single. Conversation with them.

Spoiler:
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Spoilered by Zamfir. Next time, do it yourself.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby leady » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:00 pm UTC

I'm pretty sure that cartoon can be applied to practically any group of people and I particularly like the conflation of the actions of an individual to those of a group to which they belong. Pretty sure you're not allowed to do that these days :)

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Chen » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:03 pm UTC

Zaku wrote:You don't understand. Actually, it's about ethics. Or feminazi conspiracy. Or whatever.

Really, I tried to have a conversation with GGers in the past and it's only a waste of time.

I believe this comic is a perfect representation of every. Single. Conversation with them.


Yeah cause posts like this definitely help when trying to have any type of rational argument. :roll:

I have no horse in this race. I've barely looked at the issues. I made a comment about a particular part of someone's post that made no sense. Looking at your post here from the outside makes you look just as irrational as anyone on the other side.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Zaku » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:56 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Yeah cause posts like this definitely help when trying to have any type of rational argument. :roll:


Oh, yes, please. If you want to understand the reasons of a movement born as an elaborated revenge porn fantasy based on the rambling lies of a dude the clearly needs professional help, be my guest.

Spend 15 minutes on 8Chan or Reddit. I did and I needed a shower after.

But let's start with something simple. With this cold numbers.

Image

Do you want to elaborate on this numbers, Chen..?

But I understand. You want to be impartial and equidistant about the issues of doxxing, death and rape threats, harrasament and misoginy and you think that both sides have their reasons. It's admirable.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Chen » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:04 pm UTC

See that post is at least somewhat informative. Your previous one was not. I stand by my statement.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby ahammel » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:06 pm UTC

Zaku wrote:This post of Vox Day, one of the major players of GamerGate, explains the real nature of GamerGate!

Vox is still around and still stupid? I haven't heard of him in ages. Good to know some things never change.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:13 pm UTC

I'll need to step into an 4chan persona so that I can explain this to you Zaku. I can't think of a polite way of saying it.

-------------

Zaku wrote:Edit: "The Leader of GamerGate wrote this and you are talking about the faults of A.S.? Really'


Everyone who posts anything in 8chan/gg/ is tagged with the name "Leader of GamerGate". You just failed the critical-reading test. Read a little harder, and then it will become easier to take your points seriously.

Honestly, the fact that you didn't even notice the pages and pages of "Leader of GamerGate" arguing with themselves, with different IDs talking about different things makes it very hard to believe your next statement.

Zaku wrote:Spend 15 minutes on 8Chan or Reddit. I did and I needed a shower after.


No you didn't. First of all, most of Reddit seems to be anti#GamerGate, outside of KotakuInAction. Second of all, if you spent 15 minutes on 8Chan, you'd know how the system worked. Or at least, enough to recognize that "The Leader of GamerGate" is a troll.

--------------

And now let me step out of a 4chan persona. This is how chans work. They use anonymity and troll tactics to determine who is a critical reader and who isn't. This is how they build a group dynamic so that they can recognize who is "read into" the system. Based on how you posted, you "failed" the test, proven yourself to be anti#GamerGate, and also susceptible to trolling. It also determines who understands *channers and have given *chan a real critical eye.

I'm telling you this, because if you actually want Dantez to listen to you, you'll have to actually prove to him that you're more than just an attack dog against his internet culture.

Zaku wrote:Image

Do you want to elaborate on this numbers, Chen..?


No offense, but these numbers don't really mean anything to me.

Does anyone have a count of posts aimed at @Kotaku for comparison? I've tried researching this on my own, can't seem to find anything. I don't know who the hell Grayson is, but I do know that Quinn is the personality of this whole thing. Also, a lot of the posts tagged #GamerGate directed at Quinn seem to either be in support of Quinn or talking about her recent news articles on BBC.

There was another page earlier in this thread with better, more relevant statistics. If you really want to see who is pissed off at "journalism", then you need to count @Polygon, @Kotaku, and so forth... which has plenty of traffic on #GamerGate.

I can admit that Quinn is an anomaly and it is a shame that the internet turned on her. But it should be noted that this is typical "internet" behavior to dogpile on someone. Again, I've started this discussion with Phil Fish and I continue to believe that Phil Fish hate contributes to the Quinnspiracy (as far as "geneology of memes" are concerned. And yes, Phil Fish is a "internet hate machine meme").

EDIT: I see. That guy is the one who allegedly slept with Quinn and wrote the article about her. Okay, fair point, now that I see who the hell Grayson is.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:49 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby Zaku » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:40 pm UTC

Chen wrote:See that post is at least somewhat informative. Your previous one was not. I stand by my statement.


Ok, I don't understand. Pratically every important news outlet in the world talked about Gamergate, and you are seeking information on the Xkcd forum?

Try with the Wikipedia page. It's a good start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy

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Re: Gamergate

Postby leady » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:47 pm UTC

I've visited 8chan and I needed to wash my eyes.... mainly because its layout is so garrish as to be unreadable

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Re: Gamergate

Postby aoeu » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:49 pm UTC

Zaku wrote:
Chen wrote:See that post is at least somewhat informative. Your previous one was not. I stand by my statement.


Ok, I don't understand. Pratically every important news outlet in the world talked about Gamergate, and you are seeking information on the Xkcd forum?

Try with the Wikipedia page. It's a good start.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy

Any article on gamergate that opens with a picture of Anita Sarkeesian is a poor joke. She is just a B-list celebrity saying sensational things to try and extend her relevance.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby Zaku » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:50 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I'll need to step into an 4chan persona so that I can explain this to you Zaku. I can't think of a polite way of saying it.


This is so kind of you.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:51 pm UTC

aoeu wrote:Any article on gamergate that opens with a picture of Anita Sarkeesian is a poor joke. She is just a B-list celebrity saying sensational things to try and extend her relevance.


I am concerned about this Brianna Wu person however. At least Sarkeesian is trolling the #GamerGate movement in some form, so the angry feedback makes some sense to me. But it appears Brianna Wu is receiving more tweets than her recently, and she's made fewer "attacks" on #GamerGate.

Anyway, this is an internet story first and foremost. Why should we read 2nd-hand articles in the papers when 1st-hand knowledge is easily accessible on 8chan and Twitter? Besides, supporters of all sides are here, participating in this debate right now. We've even got a long-time 4chan lurker (who I hope we didn't scare away yet, because I honestly find his viewpoint to be important in this discussion)
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Re: Gamergate

Postby Zaku » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:54 pm UTC

aoeu wrote:Any article on gamergate that opens with a picture of Anita Sarkeesian is a poor joke. She is just a B-list celebrity saying sensational things to try and extend her relevance.


I couldn't care less if she is b-list, c-list, or z-list celebrity or if her ideas are feminazi trash. But it seems that it's enough to harass her and send death threats. In the name of ethics in game journalism.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:56 pm UTC

Zaku wrote:
aoeu wrote:Any article on gamergate that opens with a picture of Anita Sarkeesian is a poor joke. She is just a B-list celebrity saying sensational things to try and extend her relevance.


I couldn't care less if she is b-list, c-list, or z-list celebrity or if her ideas are feminazi trash. But it seems that it's enough to harass her and send death threats. In the name of ethics in game journalism.


If you see a harassing post with #GamerGate, retweet it to #GamerGate Harassment Patrol. They're trying to clean it up.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby aoeu » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:58 pm UTC

Zaku wrote:
aoeu wrote:Any article on gamergate that opens with a picture of Anita Sarkeesian is a poor joke. She is just a B-list celebrity saying sensational things to try and extend her relevance.


I couldn't care less if she is b-list, c-list, or z-list celebrity or if her ideas are feminazi trash. But it seems that it's enough to harass her and send death threats. In the name of ethics in game journalism.


That's the joke. She has been getting super serious internet threats for God knows how long. This is the first time (that I know) she pretends she knows they come from a specific to get more attention.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:01 pm UTC

aoeu wrote:That's the joke. She has been getting super serious internet threats for God knows how long. This is the first time (that I know) she pretends she knows they come from a specific to get more attention.


To be fair, #GamerGate probably subsumed her harassers when those harassers noticed that #GamerGate was anti-Sarkeesian... with a thin veil of legitimacy.

So arguably, this is the first time her attackers are unified under a single banner.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby Zaku » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:05 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Anyway, this is an internet story first and foremost.


You know, when you send to the Utah State University an shooting threat that alluded to the 1989 École Polytechnique massacre in Montreal, (in which gunman Marc Lépine murdered 14 women in an act that he was quoted as saying was "fighting feminism"), it becames a Real World story.

When you dox an actress that is slightly critical the movement, it becames a Real World story.

When you welcome in you ranks Milo Yiannopoulos a guy that Last year engaged in the sort of ad hominem attacks on gamers that feminist critics like Anita Sarkeesian have never made and his only quality is his ardent anti-feminism, it becames a Real World story.

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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:17 pm UTC

When you dox an actress that is slightly critical the movement, it becames a Real World story.


Doxxing. Yes. I've seen how doxxing gets handled on 8chan. In fact, this is front-page stuff on 8chan as of the moment that I made this post.

Spoiler:
Image


I stand by what I've said through this thread. #GamerGate, and by that I mean 8chan/gg and reddit/KotakuInAction, do not condone the crap you're talking about. That said, the #GamerGate movement really exists on Twitter so... maybe part of the problem is that 8chan/gg/ and KotakuInAction are misrepresentative of the greater #GamerGate movement. 4chan/v/ similarly banned doxers (but m00t is in the pocket of the FBI, so its a bad idea to dox there anyway).

I've spent some time these past few days looking at more #GamerGate stuff, and I do think that the anti-feminists have joined #GamerGate for sure. As noted earlier, Sarkeesian has been hated on for about two years now, at least since her Kickstarter campaign. And that has always been misogynist anti-feminist bullshit. But... I think those people really have joined #GamerGate on twitter at least. I think part of my problem is that I don't read Twitter, so everyone else here has a different perspective than me. But Twitter is definitely got some toxic crap spewing all over the place, moreso than the "centers" of #GamerGate (ie: 8chan/gg/, 4chan/v/, and KotakuInAction).
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Re: Gamergate

Postby setzer777 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:19 pm UTC

I can understand complaints about review sites that used to exclusively focus on gameplay dedicating more of their reviews to ethical considerations. I get that.

But how is someone creating a *new* site/channel/etc. to talk about the ethics of a game "trolling" anybody? To say that is to claim that to talk about ethics in *any* public forum is "trolling" gamers.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:25 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:But how is someone creating a *new* site/channel/etc. to talk about the ethics of a game "trolling" anybody? To say that is to claim that to talk about ethics in *any* public forum is "trolling" gamers.


Its probably best to pretend that the word "troll" is a complement actually... within 4chan lingo. It is definitely a complement towards Sarkeesian. It means that 4channers recognize that she understand how this game of politics are played, and it means "take this one seriously, she's on to us."
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Re: Gamergate

Postby setzer777 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:29 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
setzer777 wrote:But how is someone creating a *new* site/channel/etc. to talk about the ethics of a game "trolling" anybody? To say that is to claim that to talk about ethics in *any* public forum is "trolling" gamers.


Its probably best to pretend that the word "troll" is a complement actually... within 4chan lingo. It is definitely a complement towards Sarkeesian. It means that 4channers recognize that she understand how this game of politics are played, and it means "take this one seriously, she's on to us."


Yeah, I'm somewhat familiar with 4chan lingo, but I still don't see how anything she did qualified. As far as I know nothing in her presentation was something that would lure in people who don't care about the subject-matter, and she didn't make any effort to specifically attract viewers who would be offended by the existence of her concerns.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:40 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:
setzer777 wrote:But how is someone creating a *new* site/channel/etc. to talk about the ethics of a game "trolling" anybody? To say that is to claim that to talk about ethics in *any* public forum is "trolling" gamers.


Its probably best to pretend that the word "troll" is a complement actually... within 4chan lingo. It is definitely a complement towards Sarkeesian. It means that 4channers recognize that she understand how this game of politics are played, and it means "take this one seriously, she's on to us."


Yeah, I'm somewhat familiar with 4chan lingo, but I still don't see how anything she did qualified. As far as I know nothing in her presentation was something that would lure in people who don't care about the subject-matter, and she didn't make any effort to specifically attract viewers who would be offended by the existence of her concerns.


Sarkeesian was one of the masters at marking #GamerGate as a "Misogynist movement". She stayed on point, and also ignored a key fact (ie: she was being harassed long before #GamerGate) to manipulate the image of #GamerGate. At least, so goes the story. The way she handled the death threat at Utah State was masterful. She got her political jabs against their gun laws, deflected any criticism as a weakness of Utah police, and then she made #GamerGate look like a unified group of bad guys after her. I mean, yeah it sucks that she keeps getting death threats, but she's pretty good at politicizing her point of view and getting it into the public's eye.

I've said it earlier in this thread. Other people in Sarkeesian's position have shut-up and gone into hiding. Instead, Sarkeesian confronts it head on and uses the negative energy of the crowd as ammo against them. IE: Strategic Troll.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby setzer777 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:46 pm UTC

I meant Dantez saying she trolled gamers when she "first entered the realm of gaming journalism".
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Re: Gamergate

Postby leady » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:42 pm UTC

One school of thought is that AS knew exactly what she was doing and what would happen from day 1. I tend to believe that because she is very media deft

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Re: Gamergate

Postby PolakoVoador » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:49 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I've said it earlier in this thread. Other people in Sarkeesian's position have shut-up and gone into hiding. Instead, Sarkeesian confronts it head on and uses the negative energy of the crowd as ammo against them. IE: Strategic Troll.


And that's ... bad somehow? "You know, if she just accepted the death threats and shut up about it, we wouldn't be viewed as mysogynist assholes. How dare she keeps doing this to us?"


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