Gamergate

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Felstaff » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:25 pm UTC

The fora's been pretty silent on the whole 'gamergate' debacle, which is fair play as we all know that it's right-thinking people vs. womenphobic whiny bullying manchildren getting hysterical over ridiculous conspiracies, but I think things just got pushed up a notch with this massacre threat against Anita Sarkeesian?

Image
(sorse)

She's cancelled the talk, as security didn't think that security needed beefing up in light of this. What dicks !

I mean... fucking hell. I've always thought that the gamergate (non)scandal attracted the real loser dregs of gamer society (and there were enough for me to conclude that the term 'gamer' as a subculture was a toxic term effectuated by pathetic bullying misogynistic losers, and so I would never identify with it, despite the fact that playing video games is the most time-consuming of my hobbies) like flies to a cow's butthole, but suddenly I'm worried there's another Elliot Rodger on the loose. (I mean, sure, there are likely hundreds of them, but it's a stark reminder that these guys exist, and aren't seeking help for their delusions and deteriorated mental health).
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hobo386
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Gamergate

Postby hobo386 » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:44 am UTC

Since this seems to be making the rounds, thoughts?

http://www.historyofgamergate.com/

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:06 pm UTC

Really?
We need a People's History of GamerGate.

ok! That's funny.
Ya' all enjoy that shit. ok?

I did not read the People's History of the US.
I am a fuck of a lot more interested in the US than I am in Gamers.

Who the fuck gives a shit about Gamers?
Some out grow it.
Some don't.

oh...oh, dear....
They are like Intellectual Junkies for Imagined Violence?

oh...oh,dear....
I momentarily forget the underlying Theory...

But; I know it is Wrong to ignore Junkies.
Junkies often have serious Real World Problems.

Is it The Same with Gamers?
They can not be ignored, that course of action puts both Junkies=Gamers and many innocents at risk.
Not Every-fucking-One needs to know the fucking details of what Junkies=Gamers are passionate about.

Because! That shit is more difficult that Electron Transport Systems.
Let the Political Science Majors figure it out.

Call in the Psych Majors to talk the PoliSci Guys down.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby poochyena » Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:44 pm UTC

Shouldn't someone make a thread about gamergate?
It obviously deserves its own thread

I really don't like Anita. She complains that women are only portrayed as 'damsels in distress', so does she become a role model, showing people how women should act? Nope, she just follows the trope that she is apparently fighting against.
EVERYONE even remotely famous gets death theats, most of them to the mature thing and contact the FBI/local police and talk to them about what they should do. Anita just goes onto twitter and plays victim, and, by doing so, encourages even more threats.
The Amazing Atheist and Thunderfoot has made some good videos about this.

As for gamergate, its all just trolls.
Everyone, on both sides, making wild accusations for reactions, and claiming each other's opinion isn't valid, and should be removed from the internet.

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jestingrabbit
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby jestingrabbit » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:08 pm UTC

For a movement that invented "not your shield", to start their history with an invented shield is more than a little hilarious and hypocritical.

poochyena wrote:I really don't like Anita. She complains that women are only portrayed as 'damsels in distress', so does she become a role model, showing people how women should act? Nope, she just follows the trope that she is apparently fighting against.
EVERYONE even remotely famous gets death theats, most of them to the mature thing and contact the FBI/local police and talk to them about what they should do. Anita just goes onto twitter and plays victim, and, by doing so, encourages even more threats.


That's not what Sarkeesian says, and you really have no idea about how she reacts to death threats: you see the tip of the iceberg and imagine you have seen the whole. And if you read the threat, its not against her, its threatening a massacre. You expect her to take up the possible responsibility for a massacre, as some sort of exemplar? I think you're nuts.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:15 pm UTC

The only reason to make a gamergate thread is to quarantine it from the rest of the forum.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:54 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The only reason to make a gamergate thread is to quarantine it from the rest of the forum.

As good a reason to create a Thread as any I have ever seen on a computer screen.

Gamers have every right to follow The Rabbit Down The Hole.
The rest of the Forum has a right and a responsibility to Not!

Time has it's own rhythm and language.
If any poster opens Time.....
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=101043&start=85080

Good Luck in There...!
As for me. I'm mono-lingual..

The Gamers have a language that is Their Own special possession.
If I were willing to learn another language, it would not be Gamer.

To impose your own special language on others is a Bullying Tactic.
Is it not?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:49 pm UTC

Is having GamerGate Trolls like having Rats and Mice?
While I was following your links. This came up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/magaz ... wanted=all
While reporting this article, I did everything I could to verify the trolls’ stories and identities, but I could never be certain. After all, I was examining a subculture that is built on deception and delights in playing with the media. If I had doubts about whether Fortuny was who he said he was, he had the same doubts about me. I first contacted Fortuny by e-mail, and he called me a few days later. “I checked you out,” he said warily. “You seem legitimate.” We met in person on a bright spring day at his apartment, on a forested slope in Kirkland, Wash., near Seattle. He wore a T-shirt and sweat pants, looking like an amiable freelancer on a Friday afternoon. He is thin, with birdlike features and the etiolated complexion of one who works in front of a screen. He’d been chatting with an online associate about driving me blindfolded from the airport, he said. “We decided it would be too much work.”


2008.
That was written in 2008.
I read it for the first time in 2010.

I remember it quite well.
There was another interview with a Hacker that was, just, as interesting.
The Hacker was having a much worse time than the Troll was, as I remember.

Sorry.
Does that feed the Trolls?
Do we feed the Trolls when we discuss the Human Phenomenon?

From the same article.
Another troll explained the lulz as a quasi-thermodynamic exchange between the sensitive and the cruel: “You look for someone who is full of it, a real blowhard. Then you exploit their insecurities to get an insane amount of drama, laughs and lulz. Rules would be simple: 1. Do whatever it takes to get lulz. 2. Make sure the lulz is widely distributed. This will allow for more lulz to be made. 3. The game is never over until all the lulz have been had.”


Do we feed the Trolls when we discuss the Human Phenomenon?
What Human Phenomenon??

I can't spell that word.
I can't say it correctly.


What Human Phenomenon?
Cruelty.

Humans treating others in a way that causes Pain.
Purposefully and needlessly.

Trolls do it for the Fun.
Or; The Lutz as it were.

If it is acceptable, rewarded and Never, Never punished...
Well...It seems some people really feel a strong Nostalgia
for weekly public executions.

What is wrong with it, if it is not bothering you?
2008 and 2010 were a very long time, ago.
Digital moves quickly.

What little I have read of GamerGate is kind'a dumb.
It reminds me of those Old Erotic Romance Novels from Before TV and Movies took over the Work of Imagination.

At least The Beast is using it's imagination.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby poochyena » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:33 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:For a movement that invented "not your shield", to start their history with an invented shield is more than a little hilarious and hypocritical.

poochyena wrote:I really don't like Anita. She complains that women are only portrayed as 'damsels in distress', so does she become a role model, showing people how women should act? Nope, she just follows the trope that she is apparently fighting against.
EVERYONE even remotely famous gets death theats, most of them to the mature thing and contact the FBI/local police and talk to them about what they should do. Anita just goes onto twitter and plays victim, and, by doing so, encourages even more threats.


That's not what Sarkeesian says, and you really have no idea about how she reacts to death threats: you see the tip of the iceberg and imagine you have seen the whole. And if you read the threat, its not against her, its threatening a massacre. You expect her to take up the possible responsibility for a massacre, as some sort of exemplar? I think you're nuts.


Why should this threat be taken seriously though?
I mean, is it really that easy? just send an e-mail threatening something/someone?
How exactly would the event have been safer if there were no threat, and this person just kept quiet?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H1PkyVzR-8

Its a tough subject.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:56 pm UTC

Is that the GamerInterNet's answer to the TeaBaggers?
Not an answer to them, directly.

He is a Child or GrandChild of a set of TeaBaggers?
They know ABOSUTlY. well... of course, they do.

That's dark news.
He is doing his civic duty.

It would be selfish of him to cover the exposed insulation behind him...
... there in ... his....Mom's garage?

I think he should cover the insulation.
What do you think?

EDIT: Here is a YouTube, too.
It, also, is old. 2008.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsFEV35tWsg

The speaker is Philip Zimbardo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Zimbardo

No Name. That man may Know His Stuff.
He says, 'Anonymity is a hallmark feature of Evil.'

Are the people of the internet of an Evil Sort?

Conforming to Authority?
Yes. Like people do.

Conforming to The Authority of The Bully.
For the Lutz. It's all for the Lutz.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KrytenKoro » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:45 am UTC

hobo386 wrote:Since this seems to be making the rounds, thoughts?

http://www.historyofgamergate.com/

It's a rant that's filled with double-speak crap and is complete bullshit. Most appallingly, the history starts off with claims that have been roundly debunked (that Zoe "bought" a good review from Nathan), and gives as its reason for denouncing the "totally small minority of 'jerks' (not monsters, 'jerks' it calls them)": "they make us look bad." Not, "they are doing awful things", not "they are ruining people's lives", but "it's bad for PR, and would be fine if we could only keep it on the down low."

What a fucking joke. Those are my thoughts.

As a white, upper middle class, cisgendered male, near-autism, non-white knight, avid gamer no less!

Having been doxxed, having had internet mobs decide the sanctity of my life is forfeit because my dad disagreed with someone on the internet about something that would never actually be a practical concern to either of them, I have no fucking sympathy for any of these pissbabies whining about the "ethics of journalism" when there's not a one among them that has studied ethics or journalism or knows what the fucking fuck they're talking about.

Why should this threat be taken seriously though?
I mean, is it really that easy? just send an e-mail threatening something/someone?
How exactly would the event have been safer if there were no threat, and this person just kept quiet?

Y'know, given that the general demographics for the gamergate crowd is identical to the one Elliot Rodgers was in.

Given that even gamergate posters itself like to trot out claims that people are being mailed "infected syringes".

Given that oh my fucking god are you seriously claiming that Anita was a "wimp" for not being willing to play into a school shooting threat and risk other people dying you unbelievable asshole.

Seriously.

Are you fucking kidding me?

Seriously.

PS. She did talk to the fucking police. They refused to institute requested safety measures because of the specifics of Utah's gun rights laws (which, in fairness, the law's the law), and only then did she say "fine, I'm not going to risk people's lives, because people's lives are not more important than freaking video games."

So, hey, she's living the exact principle she's trying to preach: that video games should be designed to complement and enhance society, not to plant seeds of its self-oppression.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KnightExemplar » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:59 am UTC

Regardless of your viewpoints, you have to admit that Sarkeesian is a badass to continue to show her face in public. The majority of people would have shut up and hid from the world at this point. I know Internet Trolls. They have her phone number at this point, and she's probably getting daily death threats against her, her loved ones, and her family by now. At this stage, the fact that she continues to show her face in public demonstrates her bravery.

That said, I'm inclined to disagree with her viewpoints and her articles. But I have nothing but respect for a person who can stand up against internet trolls of this type.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:03 am UTC

Wooooah, just noticed I made a hella bad typo there.

Should say "people's lives are more important than video games."

Really sounded like a crazy person for a sec, there.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:46 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:Wooooah, just noticed I made a hella bad typo there.

Should say "people's lives are more important than video games."

Really sounded like a crazy person for a sec, there.


I actually read it the way you meant it. I get this blindness towards negatives and accidentally invert sentences myself sometimes, it's great fun.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Felstaff » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:40 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:Should say "people's lives are more important than video games."

Debatable. I mean, I spent more on video games in the last month than I did on charity. Although I did click 'like' on that Syria crisis campaign...
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:52 pm UTC

Yeah but Bill Gates donates his profits to charity, so buying a video game from him does more for poor people than buying fair trade produce.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:45 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:PS. She did talk to the fucking police. They refused to institute requested safety measures because of the specifics of Utah's gun rights laws (which, in fairness, the law's the law), and only then did she say "fine, I'm not going to risk people's lives, because people's lives are not more important than freaking video games."


If you're only satisfied with suspension of the law, then...maybe you do indeed have unreasonable standards for "safety".

I saw it as an attempt to try to broaden the thing into gun control, so we can all pick predictable partisan sides and continue yelling at each other.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:43 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:PS. She did talk to the fucking police. They refused to institute requested safety measures because of the specifics of Utah's gun rights laws (which, in fairness, the law's the law), and only then did she say "fine, I'm not going to risk people's lives, because people's lives are not more important than freaking video games."


If you're only satisfied with suspension of the law, then...maybe you do indeed have unreasonable standards for "safety".

I saw it as an attempt to try to broaden the thing into gun control, so we can all pick predictable partisan sides and continue yelling at each other.

I'll freely admit that it's certainly possible that the mailer was bluffing, and I'll freely agree that, in general, people should not have their second amendment rights infringed in any way.

But if a specific threat has been made, I don't believe it's unreasonable to avoid triggering it further if the police are unwilling to tighten security enough to exclude weapons. If I'm recalling the specifics of the story correctly, the police were in fact unwilling to treat the threat as serious at all.

They may have been right, but that does not obligate Anita to take that risk with other people's lives. She would have been justified if she did, but she is no coward for not.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:52 pm UTC

She would not have been risking the lives of others. It was not her who threatened lives of others.

And I'm not sure that the moral of "threatening violence against third parties is a good way to acheive your objectives" is a positive outcome. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KrytenKoro » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:13 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:She would not have been risking the lives of others. It was not her who threatened lives of others.

And I'm not sure that the moral of "threatening violence against third parties is a good way to acheive your objectives" is a positive outcome. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not.

I agree with the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" principle in...principle, but I'm not quite sure that a talk about a luxury item is the most appropriate place to make that stand, from a moral or PR standpoint.

I mean, hell, let's stop playing devil's advocate and look at it from the flip side, that the threat was realistic. So, in a scenario where Anita refuses to "be scared off", has the talk, and a shooting happens. Is there any chance in hell that any of the MRAs claiming she's an "uppity woman constantly running false flag operations" would say "well, she stood up for her principles, I agree with her now"? Are those on the fence or who don't really care about video games gonna care more about the deaths or that Anita "didn't cowtow to the threat"?

To me, the fact that she was trying to work with the police and go ahead with the talk before the response became no more than "hope there's enough cool people in the audience with their own guns that only the shooter gets killed", is enough for me to consider her to have remained principled.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:54 am UTC

Ehhh... its probably best if I didn't post my opinion on this and instead just gave the news in the raw.

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/ ... ecause_of/

More #Gamergate stuff. Discuss as you'd like.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:25 am UTC

eeww.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:31 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Ehhh... its probably best if I didn't post my opinion on this and instead just gave the news in the raw.

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/ ... ecause_of/

More #Gamergate stuff. Discuss as you'd like.


Soooo...yeah.

There are posts in that thread, upvoted and all, about "making sure there is no cronyism is fine and all, but I just want meaniehead chocolate out of my video game peanut butter."

Even the ones responding to that with "that's fine, but the cronyism is more important right now" are still asking the people raging at percieved journalism unethical behavior to stick around and help support the push against "meaniehead"s.

In other words? They're talking out of two sides of their mouth, claiming that gamergate is not about being anti-feminist, while also trying to build support for removing "Feminazi Influence" from video games.

Example:
Spoiler:
No reason to fight about it.

I'm sick of meanieheads, too. But the first step is to secure our media. A fair and unbiased gaming media should, first and foremost, examine facts, especially before it takes a side. We've known for a long time we have facts on our side, and that any serious academic critique ends up tossing out the meaniehead garbage because it's bigoted bunk and socially regressive. It's a fad, but it has no real backing in facts and figures. Just like how Thompson's cases were based off one study that has been later shown to be false and out of context, meanieheads have a handful of "feminists" writing papers to give them legitimacy, but no real studies or empirical evidence, and they'd still need to contend with the thousands of other feminist writings that fly in the face of their conclusions. Anyone seriously investigating the issue is likely to side with us, so there's no real problem with advocating for transparency and letting both sides be heard, even if we "win" this.

To anyone worried that other supporters don't share your same enthusiasm, I recommend this: If you're here solely for the journalistic aspects, then that's great. This is, fundamentally, a problem with the gaming press and just the gaming press, where they push agendas and do favors for each other. If you're here because you love gaming and you hate what the media is doing, but you also want social justice (and the bigoted ideaology that it is) gone from gaming (and other media), then good, stick around. In the short-term, we need the gaming media to be secure and unbiased and help defend us from loonies like Jack Thompson or Anita Sarkeesian. And they used to perform that duty. We need that back. From there, our hobby can be relatively secure. The next step is to say, "We don't feel social justice is a good representative of feminist, nor social equality, and it advocates for bullying and unfair treatment of others to get what it wants". And I hope the people who are here just for the press collusion will be kind enough to help support that, because it's one of the reasons the press became so corrupt in the first place, and it's also one of the reasons that gaming might not be safe and could be co-opted again.

In other words, the short-term goal always needs to be press corruption and collusion, and establishing a new gaming press that is accountable and transparent, and hopefully can follow up their articles with research. The long-term goal is to push back social justice so it won't touch us, or hopefully other "geek culture" either, for a very long time, and expose it for a hateful ideaology. That requires a broader effort, wider education of their tactics and history, and teaching people that criticism != harassment, and that you can disagree with feminists, and many feminists do!


What.

A Bunch.

Of Duplicitous.

Bullshit.



On the ooooooother hand, in response to the news item that was OP for that thread, yeah, what the journalist posted was some grade-A toxic bullshit. Bullying is a fucking enormity, not something that should ever be encouraged, for any reason, whatsoever, in perpituity. That guy should have been fired on the spot for using his podium to say anything so heinous, and hopefully the other "anti-gamergate" voices have disavowed him.
From the elegant yelling of this compelling dispute comes the ghastly suspicion my opposition's a fruit.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:02 am UTC

May GamerGate die quietly in my sleep.

I am a "anti-gamergate" voice. I have disavowed him.
Who ever he is, consider him disavowed on your word.

As long as I don't have to know or care, that guy is Toast.
Happy?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:17 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:In other words? They're talking out of two sides of their mouth, claiming that gamergate is not about being anti-feminist, while also trying to build support for removing "Feminazi Influence" from video games.


meaniehead has been corrupted to mean something else on Reddit. Similarly, the word 'gamer' as in "End of Gamers" doesn't mean... what everyone the word "gamer" to mean.

As South Park put it, "faggot" kind of means something else now. In this #GamerGate case, meaniehead == "the enemies". And similarly, "Gamers" or "Misogynerds" also means "the enemy". Attacking "gamers" seemed to be a bad idea for anti-#GamerGate... as that is what ended up creating the tons of female gamers posting to #NotYourShield. Language changed quickly... to "Misogynerds"... but not quickly enough.

"Misogynerds" does play to the "bullying" argument of #GamerGate, hence why Mercedes Benz, Nintendo, and Intel have cut funding to Gawker Media.

Anyway, meaniehead is how the Reddit crowd refers to their opponents. "Gamer", "Misogynerd", and so forth are attempts the anti-GamerGate crowd to solidify their language for this discussion. The key is reading this line:

We don't feel social justice is a good representative of feminist, nor social equality, and it advocates for bullying and unfair treatment of others to get what it wants


Similarly, in "End of Gamers" and other similar articles, you'll notice that there's a strong trend of "I'm female and I play games" going on. Most gamers I know are quite welcoming of females in our hobby, because there honestly aren't very many of them. But the anti-#Gamergate crowd isn't using "Gamer" to talk about people I know, they're using the word to describe their "enemies", the "Gamers".

I dunno, it's probably just more appropriate to call their enemies who they are and be done with it. People aren't pissed at "Gamers" in general... and they certainly shouldn't be using "Misogynerds" as a description ("Nerd" is too much of a charged word). They should stick with the tired and true /b/tards name. No one likes the /b/tards, or what they have done to this discussion. The trolls and /b/tards with too much time on their hands are who are making death threats and blowing up this whole event.

/b/tards did it for the lulz. They did it to that suicide victim in "An Hero". They did it to scientology. They did it to the falsely accused Boston Marathon Bomber. Weev unified them against Kathy Sierra. They're around #GamerGate because its just a new target for them to attack. In a few months, they'll move on to another target.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:57 pm UTC

First off, apologies in advance if it sounds like I'm attacking you personally, as I recognize that a lot of what you're posting is explanations of what the GG people believe, rather than your own personal stuff. Please interpret my responses as being to a hypothetical "Average GGer" who is actually making these claims.
Spoiler:
KnightExemplar wrote:
KrytenKoro wrote:In other words? They're talking out of two sides of their mouth, claiming that gamergate is not about being anti-feminist, while also trying to build support for removing "Feminazi Influence" from video games.


meaniehead has been corrupted to mean something else on Reddit. Similarly, the word 'gamer' as in "End of Gamers" doesn't mean... what everyone the word "gamer" to mean.

As South Park put it, "faggot" kind of means something else now. In this #GamerGate case, meaniehead == "the enemies". And similarly, "Gamers" or "Misogynerds" also means "the enemy". Attacking "gamers" seemed to be a bad idea for anti-#GamerGate... as that is what ended up creating the tons of female gamers posting to #NotYourShield. Language changed quickly... to "Misogynerds"... but not quickly enough.

"Misogynerds" does play to the "bullying" argument of #GamerGate, hence why Mercedes Benz, Nintendo, and Intel have cut funding to Gawker Media.

Anyway, meaniehead is how the Reddit crowd refers to their opponents. "Gamer", "Misogynerd", and so forth are attempts the anti-GamerGate crowd to solidify their language for this discussion. The key is reading this line:

We don't feel social justice is a good representative of feminist, nor social equality, and it advocates for bullying and unfair treatment of others to get what it wants


Similarly, in "End of Gamers" and other similar articles, you'll notice that there's a strong trend of "I'm female and I play games" going on. Most gamers I know are quite welcoming of females in our hobby, because there honestly aren't very many of them. But the anti-#Gamergate crowd isn't using "Gamer" to talk about people I know, they're using the word to describe their "enemies", the "Gamers".

I dunno, it's probably just more appropriate to call their enemies who they are and be done with it. People aren't pissed at "Gamers" in general... and they certainly shouldn't be using "Misogynerds" as a description ("Nerd" is too much of a charged word). They should stick with the tired and true /b/tards name. No one likes the /b/tards, or what they have done to this discussion. The trolls and /b/tards with too much time on their hands are who are making death threats and blowing up this whole event.

/b/tards did it for the lulz. They did it to that suicide victim in "An Hero". They did it to scientology. They did it to the falsely accused Boston Marathon Bomber. Weev unified them against Kathy Sierra. They're around #GamerGate because its just a new target for them to attack. In a few months, they'll move on to another target.

If that terminology explanation was accurate, it would still be problematic, because it means that they're complaining about their "enemies" using words they don't like in a manner that "should" be ok, while also claiming they get to use words they're "enemy" doesn't like in a manner that "should" be ok. It's a rather obvious double standard.

The thing is, however, that post specifically talks about stuff that shines a light on misogyny, i.e. "making me feel evil because I have a penis". The fact that Sarkeesian is on the recieving end of this ire also further cuts through that illusion -- her viewpoints are very easy to confirm, and they're not "burn all men".

Similarly, in "End of Gamers" and other similar articles, you'll notice that there's a strong trend of "I'm female and I play games" going on. Most gamers I know are quite welcoming of females in our hobby, because there honestly aren't very many of them. But the anti-#Gamergate crowd isn't using "Gamer" to talk about people I know, they're using the word to describe their "enemies", the "Gamers".

You mean they're using the appellation that the Gamergate people specifically claimed?

How in the raging fuck is this the "meaniehead"s fault, then? People annoyed at the use of the label should yell at the Gamergate folks, then. This is like anti-abortion advocates telling people to get pissed at the pro-choice crowd by saying "well, I would certainly consider myself pro-life, thank you very much, but you're lumping me in with these whackos!"

No.

They're not.

That's childish.

If anything, the antigamergate crowd are extending them a courtesy to use the name their "opponent" has chosen rather than going with the (arguably more accurate) "self-centered bigoted pissbabies" for all uses.

Most gamers I know are quite welcoming of females in our hobby, because there honestly aren't very many of them.

Are you female? Have you asked females (preferably ones that don't know you well) whether they feel welcome/safe playing with you?

How do you respond to the near-constant reports of harassment/exclusion by female players? Have you ever used stuff like XBOX Live chat in a game? (and before we claim that it's all meaningless chatter, SWATting exists) How do you respond to that whole CAPCOM fighting game reality show debacle?

You may police your own behavior, but "being welcoming" would have to be determined by the recieving party. And "gamers I know" is tacitly not a representative sample of "all gamers".

*******

And the most hilarious thing is that, even if the "Evil Feminazis" are objectively evil, the Gamergate folks are whining about alleged censorship while demanding that censorship be enacted. If you don't like games with "meaniehead bullshit lolz" in them? No one's reaching into your wallet and forcing you to pay for them! People with the bare minimum of souls, who don't like reading gay lit or POC lit, they just don't read them, they don't start burning them in the streets and demanding the printers be shut down.

Polygon even put out a response article focusing on exactly this portion of the irrationality, pointing out that it would absolutely be a good thing for the Gamergate folks to add to the diversity of voices by going out and creating their own gaming review journals which review games in the gamecruft-oriented, non-commentary viewpoint that the folks are demanding. But it's incredibly plain to see that the Gamergate folk aren't looking for a platform to espouse their own views, they're looking for the ability to silence the views that make them uncomfortable. If they actually believed any of the s*** they've been talking, you'd see a lot of them taking training as journalists, or starting their own blogs, and in general, only attacking confirmed breaches of journalistic conduct, as well as defending themselves from direct attacks like "bring back bullying". From the FoI facet, we'd see behavior like wikileaks that merely sets out the documents and asks you to draw your own conclusions, not "stay on message, don't remind anyone that we're a hate group, we can snuff out the opposition after we've pulled in the rubes". But they're not. The simple fact that Anita is seen as someone to have her "flaws" exposed and be silenced is proof of that.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:45 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:I mean, hell, let's stop playing devil's advocate and look at it from the flip side, that the threat was realistic. So, in a scenario where Anita refuses to "be scared off", has the talk, and a shooting happens. Is there any chance in hell that any of the MRAs claiming she's an "uppity woman constantly running false flag operations" would say "well, she stood up for her principles, I agree with her now"? Are those on the fence or who don't really care about video games gonna care more about the deaths or that Anita "didn't cowtow to the threat"?


It will likely not convince the MRAs, because probably nothing will. Some people are not interested in reason and so forth.

But yes, a publicized killing of someone who is perceived as brave for standing up to a threat? That can indeed draw attention. Ideally, of course, things never escalate to this point, and really the ratio of internet threats to actual violence does seem...high....but in a worst case scenario, attempted violence on her would probably not make the angry, terrible people look good.

Vahir wrote:KrytenKoro, if gamergate was ruined forever when it was sucked into the morass of feminism in modern culture, as you seem to indicate, would you object to the seperation of the two issues? Why not have have two hashtags, #CorruptioninGames and #FeminisminGames, to clean up this mess? It would put the trolls and the meanieheads in one basket, those of us who want a constructive discussion on games media in the other, and save us needless angst over all the misunderstandings and strawmen that are being built.


That would be nice, but I suspect that at this point, it's unrecoverable. Just too many people all yelling and not listening. Impossible to get through the outrage.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:55 pm UTC

I have no idea what you are discussing.
But yes, a publicized killing of someone who is perceived as brave for standing up to a threat? That can indeed draw attention.

We have had a lot of that.
Many we don't know about.

Some we do know about.
Dr. King, comes to mind.

He was Threatened.
He was given a Chioce.

"You go home and shut your mouth, 'King'."
Spoiler:
The way those guys could say, King was so snarky and cynical.

"You and those four little children can live a quiet life In The South."

Dr. King was scared ShitLess.
They were good to their word.
Were they Not?

The digital world has such moments of conflict, too?

Good to know.
That is a world to avoid.
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Some of us see The Stars.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:41 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:First off, apologies in advance if it sounds like I'm attacking you personally


You're doing fine. I generally send PMs when people cross the line, followed by calls to moderators if it continues. You'll know when I get pissed.

You mean they're using the appellation that the Gamergate people specifically claimed?

How in the raging fuck is this the "meaniehead"s fault, then? People annoyed at the use of the label should yell at the Gamergate folks, then. This is like anti-abortion advocates telling people to get pissed at the pro-choice crowd by saying "well, I would certainly consider myself pro-life, thank you very much, but you're lumping me in with these whackos!"

No.

They're not.

That's childish.

If anything, the antigamergate crowd are extending them a courtesy to use the name their "opponent" has chosen rather than going with the (arguably more accurate) "self-centered bigoted pissbabies" for all uses.


But there aren't just two groups here. As soon as anti-gamergate started harping about "The End of Gamers", they've pissed off a number of minority / female gamers who didn't know anything about the controversy. #NotYourShield isn't the same movement as #GamerGate. Its a slightly different (but related) movement, started by female / minority gamers who were feeling alienated by the anti-gamergate people hating on their gaming habits.

Do remember, "anti-gamergate" represents the gaming media. Pretty much anyone who wrote an anti-Gamer piece a month or so ago counts. That's Gamasutra, Kotaku, Polygon and many more. Gamers felt like they were directly attacked by the very press that they trust for reviews and entertainment.

Image

#NotYourShield joined the fray after Quinnspiracy. When anti-gamergate extended their attacks against all gamers. (Again, with articles like "The end of the Gamer"). You can argue that Quinnspiracy was about "white cis-males attacking a woman". Part of the problem of course is that people read only the headlines to articles. "The End of the Gamer" was supposed to be about ending the "white cis-male stereotypical gamer", but "Gamers" have always been a diverse crowd who were shunned throughout grade school.

"Misogynerds" manages to characterize the opponents better. They no longer are criticizing female / minority allies within the gaming community, but are now playing into the "Bullying" argument on behalf of #GamerGate.

Most gamers I know are quite welcoming of females in our hobby, because there honestly aren't very many of them.

Are you female? Have you asked females (preferably ones that don't know you well) whether they feel welcome/safe playing with you?

How do you respond to the near-constant reports of harassment/exclusion by female players? Have you ever used stuff like XBOX Live chat in a game? (and before we claim that it's all meaningless chatter, SWATting exists) How do you respond to that whole CAPCOM fighting game reality show debacle?

You may police your own behavior, but "being welcoming" would have to be determined by the recieving party. And "gamers I know" is tacitly not a representative sample of "all gamers".


I don't even own an XBox. The XBox-live community is especially well known to be vicious. I don't associate myself with them. I do like Fighting Games and have gone to local tournaments, but the community... while supportive... is extremely clique-ish. It is very difficult to join a fighting-game community be it female or male. I admit that I do not know a single female player in the fighting game community.

But my "home" within gamers are the social gamers: I guess "Nintendo" gamers if I were to label them... these are the Pokemon Players, Mario Karters... and people who enjoy social gaming in person. This subset of gamers is who I know, and they are very open and welcome to female gamers. And that has been my experience in general. I meet them when I go to conventions. When I see a person (girl in this case) walking around with a Pokemon Cap on, I take out my 3DS and say "Do you want to battle?!?!". And we're awesome with it, two strangers, meeting on the street, showing off our Pokemons.

After the battle, we talk about some rare JRPGs, a few upcoming games and so forth. I wrote them down for memory and then moved on. It was awesome. I would assume she's feeling welcome / safe playing Pokemon with me on the street. She was cosplaying Pokemon after all.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sizik » Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:06 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:But there aren't just two groups here. As soon as anti-gamergate started harping about "The End of Gamers", they've pissed off a number of minority / female gamers who didn't know anything about the controversy. #NotYourShield isn't the same movement as #GamerGate. Its a slightly different (but related) movement, started by female / minority gamers who were feeling alienated by the anti-gamergate people hating on their gaming habits.


Except it wasn't

the article I linked wrote:As for #notyourshield, its first reference appears on the /v/ video games board on 4chan as a suggestion for responding to "social justice warriors" who claimed the #GamerGate campaign was misogynistic. "Something like #NotYourShield and demand the meanieheads stop using you as a shield to deflect genuine criticism," an anonymous user wrote on September 2.


Spoiler:
Image
gmalivuk wrote:
King Author wrote:If space (rather, distance) is an illusion, it'd be possible for one meta-me to experience both body's sensory inputs.
Yes. And if wishes were horses, wishing wells would fill up very quickly with drowned horses.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:58 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:In other news...

4 dead babies found in Winnipeg storage locker. Police are not releasing any more details at this point.

You did good, LaserGuy;
Enough to wake the imagination and make it hungry.

Not one bite of Real Food.
What does it make you think?

If the condition of the infants is that of careful buried little babes, in with a great deal of other Old Stuff.
It could be babies like my Auntie's baby. It died while too young for formal burial. She buried at Home.

I know it's creepy.
Not to people that are used to that sort of thing.

Aunties things might get mixed up with Mom's things.
They got Old and forgot What is What....You never cared.
When you get old and die, The guy at the Storage Shed gets Stuff that is New To Him.

This time while he is going though his New Stuff...
...He finds, "Babies!"
Real, Babies! (AAHHH!)

The police are the correct people to call.
They will get it figured out.

Babies and All.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:17 pm UTC

Extree extree, readallaboutit; Addams hungry for babies found in freezer! Just 5 cents!

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:09 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:After the battle, we talk about some rare JRPGs, a few upcoming games and so forth. I wrote them down for memory and then moved on. It was awesome. I would assume she's feeling welcome / safe playing Pokemon with me on the street. She was cosplaying Pokemon after all.

Those are good games for (on-the-street) community. It would be interesting to take a look at the inclusiveness of the online community.

However, even your post reads as kind of an implict admission that, at large, the gaming community is not so welcoming of women. Yeah, there are definitely "good guys", and there're definitely women who manage to live their gaming life without encountering this poison. But the meanieheads aren't saying "everyone who's ever played a game is personally terrible to women, every woman who's tried to play a game has been sexually harassed" -- that wouldn't make sense, because usually the ones saying meaniehead stuff are gamers themselves. They're saying "there is an extraordinarily obvious problem with how the community, on the whole, works to exclude women, both from the development side and the fandom side."

Hell, if we want to deal in anecdotes, I read "notalwaysworking.com" almost every day. This is not a website associated with meaniehead, it's just a website for bitching about stupid companies and their workers. In fairness, they usually exclude posts about "I had to deal with a cashier who was a dirty foreigner it was so terrible kthanxbaaaaaai". For a few years now, most all of their stories that take place in game retail shops, boardgame shops, that kind of thing? "Oh, you're a girl? You must be here either to pick up a gift for your boyfriend, or to get Nintendogs. You couldn't possibly be purchasing HALO or even Zelda."

This is...really gotdamn pervasive, dude, and it's bewildering to see people in the gamergate community act as if the gaming community is all sunshine and cuddles to women. The entire feel of this movement, it's flow and growth, is so gotdang identical to similar pushbacks against PoC or homosexuals in music and literature, to the kind of hypersensitive "Family Values" attacks against Harry Potter and the like. It's the same old song and dance we've all seen a million times, and sometimes it just gets...so damn depressing that there are still so manywho fall right into step with it.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:53 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:But the meanieheads aren't saying "everyone who's ever played a game is personally terrible to women, every woman who's tried to play a game has been sexually harassed" -- that wouldn't make sense, because usually the ones saying meaniehead stuff are gamers themselves. They're saying "there is an extraordinarily obvious problem with how the community, on the whole, works to exclude women, both from the development side and the fandom side."


I recognize the "real" message of the anti-GamerGate crowd. The problem is that they're tripping up on their language. The anti-GamerGate crowd has been using the term "Gamer" as a stand-in for their opponents.

When you read these articles, they aren't talking about "Gamers as a whole", but this subset that they are at war with. It doesn't matter, by using the language "gamer".

This isn't about talking about issues, its about politics. Building up a base and trying to prove moral superiority over the other side. Again though, this "Gamer" terminology is already somewhat dated, because the anti-Gamergate crowd has been switching their language to "Misogonerds" to better characterize their opponents.

By calling "Gamers" their enemies throughout September, they've alienated a lot of their would-be minority and female gamer allies in this fight.

This is...really gotdamn pervasive, dude, and it's bewildering to see people in the gamergate community act as if the gaming community is all sunshine and cuddles to women. The entire feel of this movement, it's flow and growth, is so gotdang identical to similar pushbacks against PoC or homosexuals in music and literature, to the kind of hypersensitive "Family Values" attacks against Harry Potter and the like. It's the same old song and dance we've all seen a million times, and sometimes it just gets...so damn depressing that there are still so manywho fall right into step with it.


Perhaps. But it was a horrible miscalculation on the part of the anti-Gamergate crowd to attack "Gamers" in general. No one is claiming that all of gaming is sunshine and rainbows, but the online community has more precise terms for discussing those issues. If you want to talk about Doxxing, Death Threats, Swatting, etc. etc, just go to Reddit and complain about Trolls, Hackers, and Doxxers. Call them fucking /b/tards. Everyone would know what you'd be talking about.

Poorly played politics has started to make major companies take the side of #GamerGate, even if they don't know about what is going on. Intel pulled ads from Gamasutra, and Mercedes Benz pulled ads from Gawker (aka Kotaku).

By using the term "Gamer" as the enemy, they've lost political capital that probably would have rallied under their cause. Female and Minority Gamers have taken the side of #GamerGate, because they've been alienated by the meanieheads.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Thesh » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:08 pm UTC

This has gone on for a couple of pages; it's probably about time to start a thread in SB.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:04 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:This has gone on for a couple of pages; it's probably about time to start a thread in SB.

uumm. Thesh;
They don't want to be Quarantined in a place where no one will see or hear them.
Their issue is So Important to them, they Must give the rest of us an opportunity to See The Fucking Light!

They look like the Evangelicals, to me.
They are driven to Explain It, to each other and then to us.

Of all people, you should have great understanding.
Word on your signature says, You have the Brain Worms, too.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:18 pm UTC

addams wrote:
Thesh wrote:This has gone on for a couple of pages; it's probably about time to start a thread in SB.

uumm. Thesh;
They don't want to be Quarantined in a place where no one will see or hear them.
Their issue is So Important to them, they Must give the rest of us an opportunity to See The Fucking Light!

I'd be perfectly happy with a separate thread. Only reason I haven't made it myself is because no one has made a specific request and I'm too tired to split it off myself and inform all the current participants of it.

Until these posts are moved:
Spoiler:
I recognize the "real" message of the anti-GamerGate crowd. The problem is that they're tripping up on their language. The anti-GamerGate crowd has been using the term "Gamer" as a stand-in for their opponents.

Which is so, so, so not an issue worth getting pissed about. Or sending threats about. Or anything at all. It's a quick request to say "hey can you use alternate terminology" "OK" "OK we're back to actually dealing with the oppression issue now instead of being pointless pissbabies".

Though, that's my response using quick, lazy logic. If we want to get into the whole detailed view of what's actually true, "NotAllMen" "YesAllWomen" would have something to say to this kind of pointless derail and whether it's actually productive at all. Like I said, this type of complaint that GamerGate is making? So, so extremely tired and pointless. I mean...dude, I'm basically every privileged demographic and every conservative viewpoint antithetical to the demographic of SJW-types, and the GamerGate platform is so trivially easy to see through. It is without substance.

When you read these articles, they aren't talking about "Gamers as a whole", but this subset that they are at war with. It doesn't matter, by using the language "gamer".

Yeah, it's called using words to mean things. Humans have done it forever. If anything, GamerGate has made a very bad show of proving the "NotAllGamers" derail they're attempting.

As an analogy -- it is perfectly reasonable to say "Ferguson police are corrupt and racist beyond reason[/i] even if there's a few Nice Guys who don't break the law but are unwilling to confront what their peers are doing, even if those few guys aren't really racist or corrupt.

Never even mind that the Gamergate folks have absolutely no reluctance to paint "feminists" or "meaniehead" or "game journalists" etc. with the same brush of alleged crimes.

This is...every. single. argument that Gamergate tries to make to excuse its actions reeks of double standards, hypocrisy, and insincere attempts to veil inherent bigotry and desires for censoring. And I don't even think the proponents are stupid for buying into them, because this kind of movement is tailor-made to exploit a lack of social experience to recognize what they're being told to attack and what the flaws with their arguments are, and feelings of lack of social power to make conspiracy theories attractive. But that doesn't make what they're saying any less flawed.

This isn't about talking about issues, its about politics. Building up a base and trying to prove moral superiority over the other side. Again though, this "Gamer" terminology is already somewhat dated, because the anti-Gamergate crowd has been switching their language to "Misogonerds" to better characterize their opponents.

Soooo...if the complaint is "you shouldn't use the term gamer", and the "meaniehead" change the term they use to one that is clearly not talking about all gamers, why is this even an issue that is brought up anymore?

Seriously. All the "NotYourShield" people should be completely satisfied and have gone home. Why are they still around if their complaints were sincere?

By calling "Gamers" their enemies throughout September, they've alienated a lot of their would-be minority and female gamer allies in this fight.

Only because the Gamergate organizers made a conscious effort to sheep's-clothing it in as an issue of social justice.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:30 pm UTC

Honestly, its very toxic discussion. I kind of don't want to give it the credit of its own thread personally. Thats my take on it.
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Re: Gamergate

Postby Paranoid__Android » Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:57 pm UTC

Funny that I would post here again after like four years of inactivity. In this thread of all threads.

Anyway.

I am very confused by this whole episode and so shall ask a question for clarification -

It seems as though there are two entirely separate issues at play and both sides of the argument are furious at the other for only talking about the issues that they 'care' about. One side seems to be going on about abuses against females in gaming, a very real and common problem. The other seems to be going on about ethical problems with gaming journalists having a cushy relationship with game developers, which appears to be a problem from some leaks etc. How the heck are these two issues even remotely related?!?! Thy both seem to have merit in their own right, but somehow have been brought together...

Now it seems if I say, "I have a problem with poor ethics in gaming journalism", I get attacked for hating women in gaming (????). If I say I want women in gaming and the industry to be better treated, I get attacked for being an meaniehead who is defending poor journalistic ethics. These issues have no overlap so far as I can see.

What is going on?
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Re: Gamergate

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:13 pm UTC

heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.


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