2016 US Presidential Election

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby addams » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:58 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:It shouldn't be a surprise that white, uneducated (I hate that word, it is demeaning)
Non-college graduates? I can't think of any unjumbled way to clearly and effectively say 'people who did not attend or graduate college'.

I do agree that it's probably not the best term to address them, as it carries very unnecessary implications;
Spoiler:
I do think being a non-college graduate can lead to technology and science appearing quite mysterious (if only because college teaches you the terminology with which to digest technological and scientific knowledge). And I think that as we become more reliant on technology and science -- and as less-tech-savvy people watch more-tech-savvy people perform feats that appear to be indistinguishable from dark sorcery -- those less-tech-savvy people begin to feel increasingly like they're being left behind.
Fear of irrelevancy even explains the hysteric, apocalyptic tone of Trump and his base. When you're feeling irrelevant, what's a quick way to gain some relevance back? Talk about the end of the world; talk about last elections, biblical plagues -- cats and dogs, living together.
Damn it!
My people don't know they don't know.

The uneducated do not have the tools of critical thinking.
The uneducated THINK they Do have decision making tools.

A self governing people must be an educated people.
The US has had a paradigm shift in last two decades.

Today, education is for money not for knowledge.

When the US constitution was written, only educated, literate, landowning men were allowed a voice.
There was a good reason for the restrictions of that time. By the 1950's most Americans could read.

We have lost ground. The American of today is highly likely to be functionally illiterate.
My people can't read. My people do not have critical thinking skills. My people ...

My people do not know what government can and should be doing.
My people do not know how to monitor their own government.

And; The government of my people has become more opaque.
It is difficult to impossible to find 'The responsible agency'.

Damn it!
It is SO upsetting!
I have spoken to the rank and file citizen.

These people do not know what the branches of government are.
Many believe One Senator Can and should change US Tax code.

Here: This is a Rachel Maddow clip.
Ms. Maddow is hand wringing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VslCHyJlOlc

The value in the clip is the voice of ex-Justice David Souter.
Ex-Justice Souter says we may have a fatal case of Civic Ignorance.

Civics is not the only thing the US, as a whole, is ignorant of!

edit: If you have the patience and attention span,
here is the whole of David Souter's speech.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVJhXQB1TAk
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby morriswalters » Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:29 am UTC

addams wrote:The uneducated do not have the tools of critical thinking.
The uneducated THINK they Do have decision making tools.
Just so you don't lose perspective, our leadership is well educated. Including Hillary and Trump. And that educated leadership has led us in to multiple wars since 1950. The other educated folks in the Financial field have managed to almost wreck the economy, twice since Bill's first term. The educated leadership of Volkswagen managed to deceive their customers and regulators. Clearly education isn't in and of itself, sufficient.

On the other hand millions of the uneducated work hard to make sure that their children do get educated. Working hard at low status jobs and sacrificing to make sure it happens. Which is at least one reason that educational attainment rates have been climbing since the sixties.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:45 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:Just so you don't lose perspective, our leadership is well educated. Including Hillary and Trump. And that educated leadership has led us in to multiple wars since 1950. The other educated folks in the Financial field have managed to almost wreck the economy, twice since Bill's first term. The educated leadership of Volkswagen managed to deceive their customers and regulators. Clearly education isn't in and of itself, sufficient.
Hard to say, without a parallel universe for comparison, but had some of those various wars not been fought, who knows what the not-fought-against ideology might have become (c.f. Syria, not stopped from descending into multi-faction chaos because of fears that intervening would create a lesser-factions chaos). If educated people hadn't been running the economic machinery, it might have crashed worse. Volkswagon is indicative of sufficiently educated people not working in the regulators (maybe a near copy of the financial scenario) and customers weren't especially deceived anyway (they gained a net benefit!).

Better top-up education across the board might end all war, financial crashes and any other self-interested minority decisions. Might. A pipe-dream. But not for Big Tobacco. ;)

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:52 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Good, I hope that means Hillary is also turning more "Bernie or Bust" types, and I hope the trend continues


Please, please, I hope so. The notion of people who supported Sanders or Stein turning the tide and resulting in a Trump would be table flippingly horrifying.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Thesh » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:01 pm UTC

Trump's really not that bad: he's just a horrible person in general who believes every conspiracy theory about Democrats, has horrible communication skills, zero attention span, does not seem to care or have any knowledge about issues that don't affect him personally (or that he perceives to), and has no qualifications whatsoever, while lacking every skill a President needs to be effective. Huh, maybe he is that bad.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Dark567 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:14 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Trump's really not that bad: he's just a horrible person in general who believes every conspiracy theory about Democrats, has horrible communication skills, zero attention span, does not seem to care or have any knowledge about issues that don't affect him personally (or that he perceives to), and has no qualifications whatsoever, while lacking every skill a President needs to be effective. Huh, maybe he is that bad.
I think that actually undersells how bad it is. If it were just the above I would be less afraid. The above just sounds like a stupid person, but Trump is an angry stupid bully. When Trump is pressed for a solution he just makes one up without thinking about it and bully out any opponents and that you just need to be strong and his solution will work. His thin skinnedness and quickness to tantrums would also play terribly on the international stage putting millions of lives at risk. It's actually hard to oversell how bad of a candidate he is.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby nicklikesfire » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:31 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
addams wrote:The uneducated do not have the tools of critical thinking.
The uneducated THINK they Do have decision making tools.
Just so you don't lose perspective, our leadership is well educated. Including Hillary and Trump. And that educated leadership has led us in to multiple wars since 1950. The other educated folks in the Financial field have managed to almost wreck the economy, twice since Bill's first term. The educated leadership of Volkswagen managed to deceive their customers and regulators. Clearly education isn't in and of itself, sufficient.

On the other hand millions of the uneducated work hard to make sure that their children do get educated. Working hard at low status jobs and sacrificing to make sure it happens. Which is at least one reason that educational attainment rates have been climbing since the sixties.


Our current educational system does very little to foster critical thinking skills. It is a huge mistake to conflate education with critical thinking. I'd actually be surprised if there was much of a correlation between the two.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:51 pm UTC

It's not a lost cause. There's perhaps stuff like this (especially @12:31ish), but that's rare and unrepresentative and probably a little unrealistic too. But it's not a lost cause. Just elusive.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Whizbang » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:13 pm UTC

Things are quiet on the antics side of things the past week or so.

... a little too quiet...:shiftyeyes:

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby sardia » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:21 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:Things are quiet on the antics side of things the past week or so.

... a little too quiet...:shiftyeyes:

Every day that Trump keeps his fat mouth shut, is another day Republicans have to forget he's a horrible sexual predator and terrible candidate. So you can see Trump's chance of winning rising. Clinton can probably run out the clock since we only have a couple weeks for the polls to change. So Trump is running out of time.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Thesh » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:21 pm UTC

Trump hasn't really been campaigning these last few days, leading to suggestions that he's given up, or possibly just resting up for his post-election whine fest.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:04 pm UTC

In the final week I'm expecting something Hueg! from the Trump camp/Wikileaks/external-influences(delete if inapplicable).

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:08 pm UTC

sardia wrote:http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/election-update-is-the-presidential-race-tightening/
Clinton maintains her lead as Trump gains in the polls. How? By pillaging third party voter bases. , Trump and Clinton have managed to convince America that third parties are for losers.
McMullen is still tied in Utah though.


Not really that unusual, honestly. Undecided/third party do break for the main parties as election day approaches. McMullen polling as well as he is definitely is unusual though. Guess he made it over the hump in Utah to become a viable contender.

Honestly, I kind of hope he pulls the win there. Probably still irrelevant overall, but it'd be interesting.

Thesh wrote:Trump's really not that bad: he's just a horrible person in general who believes every conspiracy theory about Democrats, has horrible communication skills, zero attention span, does not seem to care or have any knowledge about issues that don't affect him personally (or that he perceives to), and has no qualifications whatsoever, while lacking every skill a President needs to be effective. Huh, maybe he is that bad.


That's pretty accurate. On the one hand, that outlines just how horrible he is as a person, but on the other hand, from a partisan viewpoint, he'd probably be fairly ineffective at anything where he faces determined opposition, and lacks the power to just demand his way. The guy has one strategy, really. It's a little discomforting that this single strategy has worked as well as it has so far, but it clearly has limits.

sardia wrote:Every day that Trump keeps his fat mouth shut, is another day Republicans have to forget he's a horrible sexual predator and terrible candidate. So you can see Trump's chance of winning rising. Clinton can probably run out the clock since we only have a couple weeks for the polls to change. So Trump is running out of time.


True. Trump's probably past the point where coasting is a viable strategy. It might reduce the margin somewhat, but he'd still have to hope there's a major polling error or something there. Right now, still have 7.2% polling for gary/other. Trump'd have to get like, 90% of those to get the popular vote. He needs to both appeal to the base AND those uncommitted voters now. Gonna be hard.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby GodShapedBullet » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:15 pm UTC

The dueling narratives of a McMullin win are fascinating for the future of the GOP.

"Republicans can't win the presidency if they don't take the Never-Trump wing of the party seriously."

vs.

"The Never-Trump wing has betrayed the Rupublican party."

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:18 pm UTC

It's not necessarily that either of those narratives are true. Losing Utah honestly isn't that big in the grand scheme of things.

But the frequent use of the term "betrayal" is interesting, I think. The establishment really does seem to feel as if it's owed support and allegiance. It's a very negative viewpoint, and a very partisan one. It doesn't bode well for appealing to the other side.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby GodShapedBullet » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:30 pm UTC

I agree that in the grand scheme of things losing or winning Utah isn't going to matter... Chances are if Trump loses Utah, it's not like he's going to be crushing it elsewhere. But if I were a Romney-esque Republican vying for the heart of the GOP, I'd really like that to be the narrative.

For this specific election, if you are playing around on 270 to Win and you DON'T give Trump Utah, you are going to have to do something relatively implausible to get him to 270. So maybe the narrative has legs, even if it isn't 100% true?

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:37 pm UTC

*shrug* Giving him all the other grey states will do it. Barely. He could lose a small state and still make it. That's an optimistic read, though.

I'd see it as more likely that he'd pick up a state like PA, and lose maybe NC or something.

Some states he basically has to have, though. It's hard to envision Trump losing Florida and still pulling the win, for instance. Utah, much less critical.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:41 pm UTC

GodShapedBullet wrote:For this specific election, if you are playing around on 270 to Win and you DON'T give Trump Utah, you are going to have to do something relatively implausible to get him to 270. So maybe the narrative has legs, even if it isn't 100% true?


Only because current polls make any Trump win at all implausible right now.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Xenomortis » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:42 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Trump's really not that bad: he's just a horrible person in general who believes every conspiracy theory about Democrats, has horrible communication skills, zero attention span, does not seem to care or have any knowledge about issues that don't affect him personally (or that he perceives to), and has no qualifications whatsoever, while lacking every skill a President needs to be effective. Huh, maybe he is that bad.

The world will not end if Trump was elected President.
Likely there'd be a lot of self-serving noise coming from his mouth, but little action. Nothing "catastrophic" would happen.
I'd actually expect him to be relatively moderate.

But, speaking as a foreigner, electing him will make America look like a joke.
We thought Bush was hilarious; he played right into the "those dumb Americans" stereotype. But Trump? You might as well elect a real fucking elephant.
But maybe the damage has been done - the world keeps an eye on your Presidential election and this one has been a complete farce.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby trpmb6 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:47 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Trump hasn't really been campaigning these last few days, leading to suggestions that he's given up, or possibly just resting up for his post-election whine fest.


Trump has been campaigning... several rallies each day actually. He just hasn't said anything stupid the last week, so the media doesn't cover it.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:48 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:
Thesh wrote:Trump's really not that bad: he's just a horrible person in general who believes every conspiracy theory about Democrats, has horrible communication skills, zero attention span, does not seem to care or have any knowledge about issues that don't affect him personally (or that he perceives to), and has no qualifications whatsoever, while lacking every skill a President needs to be effective. Huh, maybe he is that bad.

The world will not end if Trump was elected President.
Likely there'd be a lot of self-serving noise coming from his mouth, but little action. Nothing "catastrophic" would happen.
I'd actually expect him to be relatively moderate.


Have you looked at the Philippines recently?
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby trpmb6 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:52 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:In the final week I'm expecting something Hueg! from the Trump camp/Wikileaks/external-influences(delete if inapplicable).


The newest Podesta email was intriguing. Even he seemed to think Hillary's use of a private email server was stupid. (I think everyone agrees it was stupid, but the way the email is phrased it seems like he was actually completely unaware that she did it.)

Another one showed how they leaked a picture of Bernie sanders in his swimsuit to the NYpost.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby GodShapedBullet » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:53 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:Another one showed how they leaked a picture of Bernie sanders in his swimsuit to the NYpost.


Nice.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:10 pm UTC

So far, the worst thing I've seen come out of the Podesta grab, which demonstrates exactly what I expect every campaign to be doing behind the scenes, is that there are still apparently intelligent people who fall for obvious spearphishing links.

Though I haven't seen the pic of Bernie in his swimming clobber (budgie smugglers?), so I'll have to reserve my final judgement on that...

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Thesh » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:19 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Thesh wrote:Trump's really not that bad: he's just a horrible person in general who believes every conspiracy theory about Democrats, has horrible communication skills, zero attention span, does not seem to care or have any knowledge about issues that don't affect him personally (or that he perceives to), and has no qualifications whatsoever, while lacking every skill a President needs to be effective. Huh, maybe he is that bad.


That's pretty accurate. On the one hand, that outlines just how horrible he is as a person, but on the other hand, from a partisan viewpoint, he'd probably be fairly ineffective at anything where he faces determined opposition, and lacks the power to just demand his way. The guy has one strategy, really. It's a little discomforting that this single strategy has worked as well as it has so far, but it clearly has limits.


I disagree, I think it doesn't need to take a lot of effort to do a huge amount of damage. Appointing radicals as heads of the State Department, DOJ, DOD, CIA, DHS, NSA, etc. can have a huge backlash on society and our freedom as Americans, foreign relations, and global geopolitical stability. By appointing the heads of organizations like the EPA, Department of Labor, Department of Housing and Urban Development, and other departments, he can select people that can benefit him greatly while doing a great deal of irreversible damage to the environment, while harming working conditions and especially harming the poor. After appointing positions, the President's primary job is, in my opinion, a diplomat, someone to help make deals and get other countries to work together with us.

Then there is the Supreme Court. Say goodbye to civil rights, welcome to the religious right's version of America, AKA "The first amendment doesn't apply to non-Christians, this is a Christian country. You will now read, out loud, every single day at the start of class from your school-issued bible that you are forced to pay for if lost or damaged, and if you are not Christian then you can sit there and listen while we exercise our first amendment rights! - See? Freedom! Oh, and no mosques within 5,000 miles of a school, church, burial site, or death out of respect for the victims of terrorist attacks." Also, the President has the right to try any illegal immigrant as a foreign spy and have them executed if they are wearing locally purchased clothing and are blending in.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Dauric » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:20 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Xenomortis wrote:
Thesh wrote:Trump's really not that bad: he's just a horrible person in general who believes every conspiracy theory about Democrats, has horrible communication skills, zero attention span, does not seem to care or have any knowledge about issues that don't affect him personally (or that he perceives to), and has no qualifications whatsoever, while lacking every skill a President needs to be effective. Huh, maybe he is that bad.

The world will not end if Trump was elected President.
Likely there'd be a lot of self-serving noise coming from his mouth, but little action. Nothing "catastrophic" would happen.
I'd actually expect him to be relatively moderate.


Have you looked at the Philippines recently?


I doubt that Trump could actually pull off something equivalent to Duterte's civilian-anti-drug-hit-squads.. not that he hasn't been trying to stoke that kind of violent rhetoric, but the majority of law enforcement is fairly decentralized and is unlikely to appreciate civilian vigilantism. Not that we don't have problems with police acting as hit squads to begin with, but that's already a problem, and local police aren't likely to appreciate civilians 'muscling in on their turf'.

The problem with a Trump presidency is less that Trump would do or not do something, but rather that someone with a silver tongue could talk him into doing something, especially if it served Trump's own personal interests. To wit: Russia has not been friendly to U.S. interests, yet Trump has been buddy-buddy (at least rhetorically if nothing else) with Putin despite Russia's.. questionable tactics, to put it generously, in Syria. With NATO deploying increased forces to the borders of the balkan states to counter attempted Russian expansion as what happened in Crimea, a Trump administration would make our NATO allies at the very least question our commitment to the NATO treaty.

Beyond that on the domestic side (further) neutering Occupational Safety and Hazard Administration (OSHA), and Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to benefit corporate profits at the expense of workers and people living near industrial sectors would be a credible threat of such an administration. Again, Trump travels in circles of the fabled "1%", people who he respects and admires aren't the "American People" as a whole, he respects those who have achieved success by his own inflated yardstick. The rest of us day-to-day working types, small business entrepreneurs, stay-at-home parents, people with chronic illnesses or mental health problems, etc. etc. etc. simply haven't worked hard enough to get the necessary success to be worthy of consideration.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:29 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:
Xenomortis wrote:
Thesh wrote:Trump's really not that bad: he's just a horrible person in general who believes every conspiracy theory about Democrats, has horrible communication skills, zero attention span, does not seem to care or have any knowledge about issues that don't affect him personally (or that he perceives to), and has no qualifications whatsoever, while lacking every skill a President needs to be effective. Huh, maybe he is that bad.

The world will not end if Trump was elected President.
Likely there'd be a lot of self-serving noise coming from his mouth, but little action. Nothing "catastrophic" would happen.
I'd actually expect him to be relatively moderate.


Have you looked at the Philippines recently?


I doubt that Trump could actually pull off something equivalent to Duterte's civilian-anti-drug-hit-squads.. not that he hasn't been trying to stoke that kind of violent rhetoric, but the majority of law enforcement is fairly decentralized and is unlikely to appreciate civilian vigilantism. Not that we don't have problems with police acting as hit squads to begin with, but that's already a problem, and local police aren't likely to appreciate civilians 'muscling in on their turf'.

The problem with a Trump presidency is less that Trump would do or not do something, but rather that someone with a silver tongue could talk him into doing something, especially if it served Trump's own personal interests. To wit: Russia has not been friendly to U.S. interests, yet Trump has been buddy-buddy (at least rhetorically if nothing else) with Putin despite Russia's.. questionable tactics, to put it generously, in Syria. With NATO deploying increased forces to the borders of the balkan states to counter attempted Russian expansion as what happened in Crimea, a Trump administration would make our NATO allies at the very least question our commitment to the NATO treaty.

Beyond that on the domestic side (further) neutering Occupational Safety and Hazard Administration (OSHA), and Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to benefit corporate profits at the expense of workers and people living near industrial sectors would be a credible threat of such an administration. Again, Trump travels in circles of the fabled "1%", people who he respects and admires aren't the "American People" as a whole, he respects those who have achieved success by his own inflated yardstick. The rest of us day-to-day working types, small business entrepreneurs, stay-at-home parents, people with chronic illnesses or mental health problems, etc. etc. etc. simply haven't worked hard enough to get the necessary success to be worthy of consideration.


I'm not only talking about the Death Squads.

I'm talking about them turning their back on the US and marching towards becoming China's lapdog. Duterte is pro-China and taking an anti-American stance on a lot of issues.

Trump's attitude towards Russia is very similar to Duterte's attitude towards China. China / Philippines are locked into serious territorial disagreements, and Duterte rewards China with his rhetoric... while biting the US which has always taken the Philippine's side. I don't really see how Duterte's strategy is helping the Philippines on the world stage.

Similarly, I'd expect Trump to give up on Syria, ceding the area to Russia. Maybe not "world ending" but certainly not towards the US's best interests.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:43 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Thesh wrote:Trump's really not that bad: he's just a horrible person in general who believes every conspiracy theory about Democrats, has horrible communication skills, zero attention span, does not seem to care or have any knowledge about issues that don't affect him personally (or that he perceives to), and has no qualifications whatsoever, while lacking every skill a President needs to be effective. Huh, maybe he is that bad.


That's pretty accurate. On the one hand, that outlines just how horrible he is as a person, but on the other hand, from a partisan viewpoint, he'd probably be fairly ineffective at anything where he faces determined opposition, and lacks the power to just demand his way. The guy has one strategy, really. It's a little discomforting that this single strategy has worked as well as it has so far, but it clearly has limits.


I disagree, I think it doesn't need to take a lot of effort to do a huge amount of damage. Appointing radicals as heads of the State Department, DOJ, DOD, CIA, DHS, NSA, etc. can have a huge backlash on society and our freedom as Americans, foreign relations, and global geopolitical stability. By appointing the heads of organizations like the EPA, Department of Labor, Department of Housing and Urban Development, and other departments, he can select people that can benefit him greatly while doing a great deal of irreversible damage to the environment, while harming working conditions and especially harming the poor. After appointing positions, the President's primary job is, in my opinion, a diplomat, someone to help make deals and get other countries to work together with us.

Then there is the Supreme Court. Say goodbye to civil rights, welcome to the religious right's version of America, AKA "The first amendment doesn't apply to non-Christians, this is a Christian country. You will now read, out loud, every single day at the start of class from your school-issued bible that you are forced to pay for if lost or damaged, and if you are not Christian then you can sit there and listen while we exercise our first amendment rights! - See? Freedom! Oh, and no mosques within 5,000 miles of a school, church, burial site, or death out of respect for the victims of terrorist attacks." Also, the President has the right to try any illegal immigrant as a foreign spy and have them executed if they are wearing locally purchased clothing and are blending in.


I mean, the presidency is still important of course.

But you're maybe overselling this. The kind of cases they'd hear would be more along the lines of "You don't have to make a cake for people you dislike".

We've had partisan judges before, and even a majority of republican judges, and it didn't descend into a hellscape theocracy. Not that Trump is particularly theocratic. More practical problems are things like "Trump continues to be bombastic and stupid, and is unhelpful to the cause of diplomacy with numerous nations".

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:48 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:The world will not end if Trump was elected President.
Likely there'd be a lot of self-serving noise coming from his mouth, but little action. Nothing "catastrophic" would happen.
I'd actually expect him to be relatively moderate.

But, speaking as a foreigner...
Y'know, while I respect outside opinions as a source of fresh perspective, I'm continually baffled by people outside the US who tell Americans that electing him wouldn't be a big deal. Maybe not for the world, yeah -- but for America?

Do you *live* here? Are you familiar with our cultural climate? With our media, our election cycles, our history, our government? Because if you think electing Trump wouldn't be a big deal for America, the answer to those questions is PROBABLY "no".

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:50 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Xenomortis wrote:The world will not end if Trump was elected President.
Likely there'd be a lot of self-serving noise coming from his mouth, but little action. Nothing "catastrophic" would happen.
I'd actually expect him to be relatively moderate.

But, speaking as a foreigner...
Y'know, while I respect outside opinions as a source of fresh perspective, I'm continually baffled by people outside the US who tell Americans that electing him wouldn't be a big deal for America.

Do you *live* here? Are you familiar with our cultural climate? With our media, our election cycles, our history, our government? Because if you think electing Trump wouldn't be a big deal for America, the answer to those questions is PROBABLY "no".


The very thing distance is important for is perspective.

EVERY election is spun to be the end of the world here. Obama was the antichrist, who would plunge the world into a thousand years of darkness, remember?* Being free of that spin is GOOD.

*This is not hyperbole, celebrities and such literally said this.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:03 pm UTC

Like, we're not talking about world ending catastrophe here; we're talking about the legitimization of Trump's narrative; the legitimization of a narrative that describe a Hillary victory as "the last election". A narrative that is deeply anti-science, Islamophobic, racist, nativist, anti-woman... We're talking about electing a man who is -- and is perceived AS by his supporters -- a vindictive bully. If this guy wins, at the VERY least, the message it sends to American politics is that these tactics are credible, and should be replicated. If you don't think that a Trump victory wouldn't be a watershed moment in American politics...

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:14 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Like, we're not talking about world ending catastrophe here; we're talking about the legitimization of Trump's narrative; the legitimization of a narrative that describe a Hillary victory as "the last election".


Both sides do that. This very thread has had people labeling Trump as likely to end democracy and crap.

A narrative that is deeply anti-science, Islamophobic, racist, nativist, anti-woman... We're talking about electing a man who is -- and is perceived AS by his supporters -- a vindictive bully. If this guy wins, at the VERY least, the message it sends to American politics is that these tactics are credible, and should be replicated. If you don't think that a Trump victory wouldn't be a watershed moment in American politics...


He is all of these things. Well, maybe not anti-science. He strikes me as not particularly caring about science either way.

He made it to the nom. If you desire the lesson that these tactics can't work, it's already too late. Had he also been slightly less egocentric and a better strategist, these tactics could have resulted in him doing even better.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby trpmb6 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:15 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Like, we're not talking about world ending catastrophe here; we're talking about the legitimization of Trump's narrative; the legitimization of a narrative that describe a Hillary victory as "the last election". A narrative that is deeply anti-science, Islamophobic, racist, nativist, anti-woman... We're talking about electing a man who is -- and is perceived AS by his supporters -- a vindictive bully. If this guy wins, at the VERY least, the message it sends to American politics is that these tactics are credible, and should be replicated. If you don't think that a Trump victory wouldn't be a watershed moment in American politics...


I'm less concerned with your fear of what a Trump presidency might mean, and more concerned with why you don't have a hippo as your avatar when your name is clearly "The Great Hippo"

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:16 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Like, we're not talking about world ending catastrophe here; we're talking about the legitimization of Trump's narrative; the legitimization of a narrative that describe a Hillary victory as "the last election". A narrative that is deeply anti-science, Islamophobic, racist, nativist, anti-woman... We're talking about electing a man who is -- and is perceived AS by his supporters -- a vindictive bully. If this guy wins, at the VERY least, the message it sends to American politics is that these tactics are credible, and should be replicated. If you don't think that a Trump victory wouldn't be a watershed moment in American politics...

And all that said, I think given how successful Trump has been in the political sphere has already damaged the sense of propriety surrounding it. Republicans have seen now how easy it is to draw enormous support by being as bigoted as they want to be, and I wager we'll see a lot more of it in elections to come.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:16 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Like, we're not talking about world ending catastrophe here; we're talking about the legitimization of Trump's narrative; the legitimization of a narrative that describe a Hillary victory as "the last election". A narrative that is deeply anti-science, Islamophobic, racist, nativist, anti-woman... We're talking about electing a man who is -- and is perceived AS by his supporters -- a vindictive bully. If this guy wins, at the VERY least, the message it sends to American politics is that these tactics are credible, and should be replicated. If you don't think that a Trump victory wouldn't be a watershed moment in American politics...


I'm less concerned with your fear of what a Trump presidency might mean, and more concerned with why you don't have a hippo as your avatar when your name is clearly "The Great Hippo"

Huh? That's definitely a Hippo. What do YOU think a Hippo is?
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:17 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Like, we're not talking about world ending catastrophe here; we're talking about the legitimization of Trump's narrative; the legitimization of a narrative that describe a Hillary victory as "the last election". A narrative that is deeply anti-science, Islamophobic, racist, nativist, anti-woman... We're talking about electing a man who is -- and is perceived AS by his supporters -- a vindictive bully. If this guy wins, at the VERY least, the message it sends to American politics is that these tactics are credible, and should be replicated. If you don't think that a Trump victory wouldn't be a watershed moment in American politics...


Trump already won the Republican primary, demonstrating that the tactics are credible and should be replicated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLKWw542g

Trump is what we call a "demagogue". Demagogues have existed for the entire history of the USA, and will always exist in a democracy. And yes, Demagogues sometimes get elected.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:23 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:I'm less concerned with your fear of what a Trump presidency might mean, and more concerned with why you don't have a hippo as your avatar when your name is clearly "The Great Hippo"
? My avatar IS a hippo.
KnightExemplar wrote:Trump is what we call a "demagogue". Demagogues have existed for the entire history of the USA, and will always exist in a democracy. And yes, Demagogues sometimes get elected.
Can you think of any comparable demagogue in modern American history that's gotten this close to the presidency? I can't, but maybe I'm not trying hard enough.
Last edited by The Great Hippo on Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:25 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:24 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Trump is what we call a "demagogue". Demagogues have existed for the entire history of the USA, and will always exist in a democracy. And yes, Demagogues sometimes get elected.
Can you think of any demagogue in modern American history that's gotten this close to the presidency? I can't, but maybe I'm not trying hard enough.


Nixon.

Its no small secret he started the war on drugs because he didn't like hippies or black people.
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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:30 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Nixon.

Its no small secret he started the war on drugs because he didn't like hippies or black people.
I post edited to add "comparable" in front of demagogue just after you posted.

It's no small secret, but it was still largely a secret; Nixon wasn't in the business of publicly advocating war crimes or tearing his party apart. Nixon RESIGNED, remember? Can you imagine Trump resigning? Hell no; he won't even secede a lost election. He'd drag everyone down with him.

Nixon was a demagogue, but not to this level, and not with this degree of destructiveness and volatility.

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Re: 2016 US Presidential Election

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:32 pm UTC

Nixon resigned only because he got caught, and the alternatives were worse. Resignation was the smart way out. You're right in that Trump probably wouldn't take the smart way out. Also, people who can keep secrets are more dangerous than people who just blab whatever.

Trump's awful, but Nixon was really dangerous in a way that Trump can't be.


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