Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app store

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Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app store

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:34 pm UTC

http://www.cultofmac.com/320141/apple-r ... ble-watch/

Now that Apple has made the "Apple Watch", they have begun their anti-competitive practices and begun to ban Pebble Smartwatch apps from their app store. We can expect that Apple will begin rejecting the other smartwatch accessories and associated applications from their App Store. (Nike Fitband, Microsoft Band, etc. etc.)

I think this is a sign that Apple is becoming anticompetitive. If you want to use a Pebble, Nike Fitband or Microsoft Band with your iPhone... its kind of the beginning of the end.
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby commodorejohn » Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:51 pm UTC

"Is becoming?"
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby Chen » Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:31 pm UTC

Note the reasoning was because it mentioned the other mobile platform (Pebble watch) in the metadata on the App store. That's apparently always been forbidden. Presumably its only being enforced now though due to the Apple Watch release. That or perhaps the "other mobile platform" didn't include Smartwatches prior to Apple making one.

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/r ... /#metadata

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:58 pm UTC

Chen wrote:That or perhaps the "other mobile platform" didn't include Smartwatches prior to Apple making one.


That's the issue. Pebble apps have been supported since 2013 in the Apple Store. But now that Apple has made a watch, they are beginning to classify the Pebble as an "other mobile platform".

Whether or not they "technically changed the rules" is irrelevant. Apple's policy is clear: don't compete against us.
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:01 pm UTC

I really wish they'd take the reasoning to its logical conclusion and just reject all apps categorically for being not Apple software. It's frustrating that the market is so thin that big players can be such poor community members and maintain relevance. #thousandsofsmallfirms
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:57 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:I really wish they'd take the reasoning to its logical conclusion and just reject all apps categorically for being not Apple software. It's frustrating that the market is so thin that big players can be such poor community members and maintain relevance. #thousandsofsmallfirms


But where will Apple get all of their ideas from?

This isn't the first time Apple has done this. Apple has been basically using the "App Store" as their testing zone. As soon as a programmer makes a hit app, Apple clones it with their own programmers and then shuts off the original programmer from the app store.

This is even worse than Microsoft's practices in the 90s. At least back then, you didn't pay Microsoft 30% of your revenue for the privilege of getting your app ideas stolen from you. Microsoft stole them fair-and-square (erm... relatively). And even then, Microsoft never straight up banned competitor applications from its OS. (Netscape vs IE was a "valid" fight, as was WordPerfect vs Word vs LotusNotes)
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby morriswalters » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:28 pm UTC

The answer is pretty clear, don't buy Apple. Or conversely, buy Apple exclusively. Personally I'm looking to reduce device counts. Smart watches are just another thing to keep track of. I'd like to see something like Google Glass without the camera, just the capacity to display the screen from my phone. Maybe something on the order of Microsoft's Hololens, assuming that it ever happens

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:32 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:The answer is pretty clear, don't buy Apple. Or conversely, buy Apple exclusively.


Perhaps. But I was excited for Pebble Smartwatch. And those guys went out of their way to support Android AND iPhones. Part of what made Pebble Smartwatch cool was their cross-platform nature.

At this rate, Pebble is going to be forced to become Android-only, which hurts Pebble users significantly. This dumb decision hurts Apple as well, but it hurts Pebble more, since they're a small kickstarter company and don't really have the funds to compete against Apple's Watch.

As far as I know, Pebble Watch is the only watch that has more than 2 days worth of battery time, thanks to the color e-ink screen they use. They're also the first smartwatch, and are the guys who kicked off this whole smartwatch "craze" that the tech companies are going through right now. I'd like to imagine that the innovative small company "Pebble" would be rewarded for their innovation. But instead, Apple's anticompetitive practices are going to discourage future inventors from innovating in this field.

After all, if the inventors of the SmartWatch (specifically, watches that sync with a phone and have app support) fail to the army of clones from larger companies (Microsoft Band, Apple Watch, Android Wear, Samsung Gear...), what's the point of being a smalltime inventor today?
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby morriswalters » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:07 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Perhaps. But I was excited for Pebble Smartwatch.
Ok. But can you answer the question , why? If you just need a watch then battery life can be measured in months or years. And I don't see sufficient utility in a watch sized device that is to limited by its battery to be as convenient as a real watch, or as powerful enough to be as useful as my phone. Pebble will survive as a product if they can leverage what they have in a way that is useful.

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:28 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:After all, if the inventors of the SmartWatch (specifically, watches that sync with a phone and have app support) fail to the army of clones from larger companies (Microsoft Band, Apple Watch, Android Wear, Samsung Gear...), what's the point of being a smalltime inventor today?

There are advantages to being the first-mover in a field but there are also advantages to being the second-mover.

There's a skill to timing entry to a market - for example Google has many good ideas but they are frequently too ahead of their time to be workable (eg. Google Glass) - but there is also a skill to timing when to exit.

"What's the point of being a small-time inventor today?" You can still make enough money from an invention to never need to work again. It's just asking a lot to expect as a smalltime inventor to dominate your market not simply in the first year but the tenth. It's unusual for the same person to have the requisite skills to flourish in both a new market and a mature one. The slightly depressing reality is that a more sensible strategy is probably to create a market and then look to sell out for as much money as possible...

I am minded of FriendsReunited in the UK: Created by a couple in a bedroom in 2000, it was sold in 2005 for $200m. In 2009 it was resold for $40m and in 2011 was valued at $8m. There were just too many others in a mature market for FR to compete despite being a first-mover in the UK.

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:16 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Perhaps. But I was excited for Pebble Smartwatch.
Ok. But can you answer the question , why? If you just need a watch then battery life can be measured in months or years. And I don't see sufficient utility in a watch sized device that is to limited by its battery to be as convenient as a real watch, or as powerful enough to be as useful as my phone. Pebble will survive as a product if they can leverage what they have in a way that is useful.


Mainly because the Pebble Smartwatch doesn't have the faults of the other watches.

Apple Watch for example has a three day battery, but it only gets there by wtf turning off the screen every 5 seconds and waking up whenever you shake your wrist. Android Gear and other watches barely get to the full day mark, requiring you to charge your watch every night. Pebble Smartwatch gets the full 7 days of battery on one charge, has the screen to read text messages / phone IDs. IIRC, there's some pebble apps that are syncing with Evernote for grocery lists and other such small-item stuffs.

I admit though, I'm not planning on buying one. Practically speaking, I'm going extremely low tech and practically carry around a small 4x3 inch notebook in my pocket + a pencil. With a normal $30 watch with time / day functionality. And this has been sufficient for virtually all of my on-the-go tasks.

But when I see stories like this one, where the Apple Watch has actually sold out, it bothers me immensely. Apple can make a watch with less than half the battery life, with only 5-seconds of viewing time per wrist flick compared to the original Pebble Smartwatch... sell it at significantly higher costs than the Pebble to boot. And yet people buy it on brand recognition alone. (I guess Apple Pay on the watch is useful, but that is probably the only innovation I've seen on the part of Apple here).

Apple's $20,000 Gold Watch has also sold out FYI. So its not like "practical" people are buying these things.

Especially as Apple then starts to take anti-competitive stances on its App Store, to hamstring Pebble even further.

Anyway, Pebble is the closest thing to practical right now. Its got the screen that doesn't shut off all the time. Its got a 7 day battery life (multiple times longer than the rest of the competition). Its got a solid app Android AND iPhone marketplace right now (until Apple cuts off half of that...). It actually fits standard 22mm wrist straps, instead of the custom stuff that have to be made for Apple Watch... etc. etc. Its just... a practical design and it bothers me that less practical designs are getting commercial success.
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby Dauric » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:24 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:"Is becoming?"


This is the thing.

Apple has always has an ethos of developing computers that maximize user friendliness, from interior design applied to their cases to being able to work out of the box without setup or configuration by people who don't have an understanding of computers and for whom the innards of the device are sufficiently advanced enough to be magic.

The only way to make the latter true is to lock down the device and prevent end users from messing with it, and to tightly control the peripherals and software that can be used with that device to ensure they meet the tightest "user friendliness" standards.

At least that's Apple's corporate philosophy (as paraphrased from an Apple Fanboy I was talking with...) and it's been a part of Apple since the earliest Macintosh. Come out with a new app or peripheral, and in order to maintain that ethos Apple has to make their own version to maintain the compliance with "no setups" ideal.

For the rest of us though it makes Apple look like massive assholes, and is a reason some people (myself included) will not buy Apple products.
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby Positron » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:44 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:They're also the first smartwatch...

While Pebble were major players, and probably did kick off interest in smart watches, they were not the first. The earliest I know of to have similar functionality to the Pebble was the Sony Ericsson LiveView, which was released 2-3 years before the first Pebble, near as I can tell, and there's comments mentioning earlier watches with similar functionality on an Engadget review of the LiveView from 2010: http://www.engadget.com/2010/12/01/sony ... ew-review/. Pebble's innovation was more in features like the ePaper screen, the customisability by default (rather than aftermarket hacks), and being the first to work on iOS.

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:49 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Apple has always has an ethos of developing computers that maximize user friendliness, from interior design applied to their cases to being able to work out of the box without setup or configuration by people who don't have an understanding of computers and for whom the innards of the device are sufficiently advanced enough to be magic.


Yup, and that is the explanation of why the iWatch has sold in such large numbers: People trust that it will be easy to use whereas Pebble never persuaded people in the same numbers.

That the Pebble is the technically superior product is irrelevant: Most ordinary people don't have 'technical superiority' as the overriding priority - and they're not wrong to think that: Better an inferior product they'll use every day than a superior one they'll just stick away in a drawer through getting frustrated with it. (Again, not saying that the Pebble falls into that category - merely that they failed to persuade users that it didn't.)

Apple's reputation as 'easy to use' is well-earned. There's no way I'd recommend anything but an Apple product to my pensioner parents for example; 'Value for money', 'technical superiority' and so on are irrelevant. 'Does it do the job' and 'is it intuitive to use' are much more important considerations...

It's also an example of the sort of skill that a first-time mover isn't necessarily going to have. What's simple and intuitive and important to a 'techie' isn't often going to be true for a 'non-techie'. And, unlike for a new market, 'non-techies' will make up the majority of the userbase for a mature market...

Personally I agree with others here that a smartwatch has no use for me. A smartphone has more functionality and is just as accessible, and a Google glass product without the camera I could see a use for, but a smartwatch kinda falls in between.

Apple have made at least one innovation though, haven't they? The new haptic feedback sounds interesting... For example you could make it give a coded buzz if you get an email from an important sender. Or it could act as a silent alarm in a situation where a noisy ringtone might be rude or intrusive.
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:53 pm UTC

Elasto: if Apple were competing fairly against Pebble in the marketplace, perhaps you could make that argument.

But they're not. If this "SeaNav" app is of any indication, then Pebble apps are not welcome on iOS. Pebble will be made less useful by Apple's design and unfair competition.
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby morriswalters » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:54 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:But when I see stories like this one, where the Apple Watch has actually sold out, it bothers me immensely.
I got over it. I worked in retail and learned quickly that for some subgroups that fashion outweighed utility. I have held in my hands a dress that cost more then some of the cars I have owned. The easy thing to forget is that it will pass. The same people that live and die by Apple will drop Apple like their discarded underwear when some other new toy comes along.
elasto wrote:'Does it do the job' and 'is it intuitive to use' are much more important considerations...
A watch does the job already. And your elders already know how to use them.

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:58 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Elasto: if Apple were competing fairly against Pebble in the marketplace, perhaps you could make that argument.


How are they not competing fairly? This is Apple's private marketplace!

Pebble are presumably perfectly at liberty to encourage people to unlock their phones and sell to them directly - there's no law against that even in the US - but until they do Pebble are piggybacking on the enormous marketplace Apple has opened up. Without Apple, Pebble would not have sold in anything like the numbers they did...

morriswalters wrote:
elasto wrote:'Does it do the job' and 'is it intuitive to use' are much more important considerations...
A watch does the job already. And your elders already know how to use them.

Since you missed the context of my sentence (I wasn't talking about watches) - I'll reiterate: No matter what the product - phone, tablet, computer or smartwatch - if my parents were looking to buy something in that area I'd recommend Apple.

My Mum can't work her DVD recorder - and before that couldn't work her video recorder - but she is fine with her iPad. They must be doing something right...

I have held in my hands a dress that cost more then some of the cars I have owned. The easy thing to forget is that it will pass. The same people that live and die by Apple will drop Apple like their discarded underwear when some other new toy comes along.

I think that's unfair. A dress is nothing but a fashion statement. A tablet is much more functional. My Mum uses her tablet for emailing, for making video calls and so on. It adds genuine utility to her life. If something better comes along it will be because it has even greater utility, not because it is more fashionable. (Now in her 70s my Mum hardly has 'fashion' at the front of her mind after all...)
Last edited by elasto on Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:11 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:10 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Elasto: if Apple were competing fairly against Pebble in the marketplace, perhaps you could make that argument.


How are they not competing fairly? This is Apple's private marketplace!


Its impossible to make any other marketplace with Apple. They have a closed system. The system Apple made is by design in Apples favor. Even Microsoft allows sideloading on their phones and OSes.

Pebble are presumably perfectly at liberty to encourage people to unlock their phones and sell to them directly - there's no law against that even in the US


http://www.wired.com/2010/07/feds-ok-ip ... lbreaking/

Sorta. Jailbreaking on iPhones is only possible because hackers constantly break the phone each iteration. Apple's "closed market" is unprecedented from a computing perspective. And honestly, you should care about this sort of stuff.

elasto wrote:
morriswalters wrote:
elasto wrote:'Does it do the job' and 'is it intuitive to use' are much more important considerations...
A watch does the job already. And your elders already know how to use them.

Since you missed the context of my sentence (I wasn't talking about watches) - I'll reiterate: No matter what the product - phone, tablet, computer or smartwatch - if my parents were looking to buy something in that area I'd recommend Apple.

My Mum can't work her DVD recorder - and before that couldn't work her video recorder - but she is fine with her iPad. They must be doing something right...


And my mom can't close windows in Mac OSX, but can send emails just fine in Windows. She also uses a Surface quite well. So... counterexamples ftw?

Pebble are presumably perfectly at liberty to encourage people to unlock their phones and sell to them directly - there's no law against that even in the US - but until they do Pebble are piggybacking on the enormous marketplace Apple has opened up. Without Apple, Pebble would not have sold in anything like the numbers they did...


Without Pebble, Apple wouldn't have made the Apple Watch.

I mean, come on. The Apple watch is a blatant ripoff of the Pebble watch. From the APIs they copied to the concept of a bluetooth phone-connected watch device. Its not even anywhere close to subtle. All Apple added was "heartbeat sharing" and "Apple Pay". Everything else is a blatant ripoff of the original Pebble watch.

I'm pissed because the free market is clearly not working here anymore. If Apple can bully smaller companies with these sorts of tactics, they seriously are reaching anti-trust status IMO.
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:21 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Its impossible to make any other marketplace with Apple. They have a closed system.

How is it impossible if I have an unlocked iPhone and iPad right now? Jailbreaking is not simply possible but legal. Apple fight it every iteration but they have never succeeded and will never succeed.

Apple's "closed market" is unprecedented from a computing perspective. And honestly, [url=https://xkcd.com/743/]you should care about this sort of stuff

Why should I care about it? A closed market isn't detrimental to the end user it's a trade-off: It's because they control every aspect of the technology from end to end that they can guarantee the user-friendliness and user-experience that they do.

And my mom can't close windows in Mac OSX, but can send emails just fine in Windows. She also uses a Surface quite well. So... counterexamples ftw?

It's not an 'example' I gave it's an illustration of why Apple dominates the non-techie market. Your Mum isn't a 'counter-example' so much as an illustration of the fact that Apple doesn't have 100% dominance - but I never claimed that they did... In fact my understanding is that Apple doesn't even have 50% of the market.

Still, I stand by my assertion that the more 'non-techie' the user, the more I'd recommend Apple. (I'd also recommend Apple for techies though simply because it's so trivial to unlock. It's only people who need cutting edge tech or who are on a budget I'd recommend against buying Apple)

Without Pebble, Apple wouldn't have made the Apple Watch.


They might not have made it now but I'm sure they'd have made it. The iPad wasn't the first tablet, the iPhone wasn't the first iPhone, the iWatch wasn't the first smartwatch - but then nor was the Pebble.

I'm pissed because the free market is clearly not working here anymore. If Apple can bully smaller companies with these sorts of tactics, they seriously are reaching anti-trust status IMO.

The US has never had a free market. Other countries have far better protections for consumers. That's a subtly different debate though.
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:23 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Its impossible to make any other marketplace with Apple. They have a closed system.

How is it impossible if I have an unlocked iPhone and iPad right now? Jailbreaking is not simply possible but legal. Apple fight it every iteration but they have never succeeded and will never succeed.


Jailbreaking is not a "feature" put there by Apple. It is a "mistake" Apple makes in each version that hackers discover. Jailbreaks for a specific version of IOS may take months or longer to come out.

Apple's "closed market" is unprecedented from a computing perspective. And honestly, [url=https://xkcd.com/743/]you should care about this sort of stuff

Why should I care about it? A closed market isn't detrimental to the end user it's a trade-off: It's because they control every aspect of the technology from end to end that they can guarantee the user-friendliness and user-experience that they do.


Okay then. So tell me.

Where does banning SeaNav from the Apple Store guarantees "user-friendliness" and "user experience" ? All it does is piss off Pebble customers and strengthen's Apple's position as a horizontally constructed monopoly. The Apple Watch is an inferior device at a higher cost... and yet it will be "more useful" because of Apple's tactics here.

Not because Pebble made a mistake. But because Apple is now actively designing their stores / devices to make Pebble weaker and harder to use. Apple owns the store you buy apps from, it owns the device you're using, and now its using its control of those two elements to start hampering its competitors.

The US has never had a free market.


Indeed, and I think it is about time that those powers stepped in and stopped Apple's abusive tactics.
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby Dauric » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:34 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
elasto wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Its impossible to make any other marketplace with Apple. They have a closed system.

How is it impossible if I have an unlocked iPhone and iPad right now? Jailbreaking is not simply possible but legal. Apple fight it every iteration but they have never succeeded and will never succeed.

Jailbreaking is not a "feature" put there by Apple. It is a "mistake" Apple makes in each version that hackers discover. Jailbreaks for a specific version of IOS may take months or longer to come out.


I find this amusing. The "Jailbreakable" defense of Apple's devices hinges on them never being able to defend their hardware from hackers. I believe this qualifies as "Damned by faint praise."
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:34 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Jailbreaking is not a "feature" put there by Apple. It is a "mistake" Apple makes in each version that hackers discover. Jailbreaks for a specific version of IOS may take months or longer to come out.

So what? Unless I absolutely need the latest iProduct with the latest o/s why does it matter? I can just buy an older version and/or with an older o/s.

Okay then. So tell me.

Where does banning SeaNav from the Apple Store guarantees "user-friendliness" and "user experience" ?

The general principle is that the more control Apple exerts, the better user-friendliness and user-experience the average product has.

As I said in a previous post (we are both posting then adding to our posts here haha) if you're asking if the USA is really a free market then it's absolutely not. Other countries have far better consumer right protections and anti monopolistic policies. Just look at the state of cable tv and ISPs for you guys. Or look at how seriously the European courts came down on first Microsoft and then Google.

In this particular case Apple are absolutely exploiting the fact that the Apple marketplace is a private marketplace not a publicly owned one, and that Pebble is a guest not a company that has a fundamental right to participate.

If you're asking should Apple be forced to hive off their app marketplace and lose all quality assurance then I could possibly agree - however it would be a trade-off not a universal good...

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:39 pm UTC

The European Courts came down on Microsoft because MS pre-bundled Internet Explorer with their OS, "discouraging competition". Apple has SOOO cross the line with this SeaNav ban, that it isn't even close.

I'm not necessarily saying that Apple needs to give up its marketplace. But if it wants to be the sole-supplier of apps for its ecosystem, it damn well better play fair with its competitors.

So what? Unless I absolutely need the latest iProduct with the latest o/s why does it matter? I can just buy an older version and/or with an older o/s.


I'm happy with this response, because I think that's a tacit implication that I've won this subdebate. :D :D. Do you have any stronger argument than that?
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:42 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I'm not necessarily saying that Apple needs to give up its marketplace. But if it wants to be the sole-supplier of apps for its ecosystem, it damn well better play fair with its competitors.

It will. Apple is just flexing to do everything possible to boost sales. Mark my words, Pebble will return, and likely very quickly.

Didn't a similar thing happen with Google Maps when Apple launched their own mapping service?

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby Dauric » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:47 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:The European Courts came down on Microsoft because MS pre-bundled Internet Explorer with their OS, "discouraging competition". Apple has SOOO cross the line with this SeaNav ban, that it isn't even close.

I'm not necessarily saying that Apple needs to give up its marketplace. But if it wants to be the sole-supplier of apps for its ecosystem, it damn well better play fair with its competitors.


Perhaps there's a bit of a perception difference here:

Apple doesn't have as large a share of the marketplace as Android in Europe, around 20%-ish, but in the U.S. iPhone sales are just under 50% of the market.

elasto wrote:Didn't a similar thing happen with Google Maps when Apple launched their own mapping service?


That was because Apple's mapping service was hilariously inaccurate, well beyond "3 hour battery" hilarious, it as utterly without use except as the butt of a joke.
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:56 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
So what? Unless I absolutely need the latest iProduct with the latest o/s why does it matter? I can just buy an older version and/or with an older o/s.


I'm happy with this response, because I think that's a tacit implication that I've won this subdebate. :D :D. Do you have any stronger argument than that?


How so? The sub-debate started when you said 'Its impossible to make any other marketplace with Apple. They have a closed system.' and I pointed out that not only is it possible but that they already exist and have done for years. The only limitation is that you can't have the latest product + os combo until it's been jailbroken, but in practice that's hardly debilitating.

Something like 5% of iPhones are jailbroken right now and that number will rise if Apple try to flex their muscles too hard. Historically and in certain markets much higher numbers have been jailbroken too - for example a few years ago around 30% were jailbroken in China.

The free market is somewhat self-correcting in this respect.

Dauric wrote:That was because Apple's mapping service was hilariously inaccurate, well beyond "3 hour battery" hilarious, it as utterly without use except as the butt of a joke.

Yup. Some of Google's products are so far ahead of the opposition everyone looks inept in comparison ^^

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby Dauric » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:01 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:
So what? Unless I absolutely need the latest iProduct with the latest o/s why does it matter? I can just buy an older version and/or with an older o/s.


I'm happy with this response, because I think that's a tacit implication that I've won this subdebate. :D :D. Do you have any stronger argument than that?


How so? The sub-debate started when you said 'Its impossible to make any other marketplace with Apple. They have a closed system.' and I pointed out that not only is it possible but that they already exist and have done for years. The only limitation is that you can't have the latest product + os until it's been jailbroken, but in practice that's hardly debilitating.

Something like 5% of iPhones are jailbroken right now and that number will rise if Apple try to flex their muscles too hard. Historically and in certain markets much higher numbers have been jailbroken too - for example a few years ago around 30% were jailbroken in China.

The free market is somewhat self-correcting in this respect.


So... You espouse the hardware that in order to have access to third-party software you have to install a back-door some hacker figured out and exploited? I know no hardware has perfect data security, but I'd rather not have data security I have to drill additional holes in to to get the functionality I want.

This goes especially for people without technical savvy to understand they're drilling holes in their security -and- use the device for their mobile banking apps...
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:05 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:
So what? Unless I absolutely need the latest iProduct with the latest o/s why does it matter? I can just buy an older version and/or with an older o/s.


I'm happy with this response, because I think that's a tacit implication that I've won this subdebate. :D :D. Do you have any stronger argument than that?


How so? The sub-debate started when you said 'Its impossible to make any other marketplace with Apple. They have a closed system.' and I pointed out that not only is it possible but that they already exist and have done for years. The only limitation is that you can't have the latest product + os combo until it's been jailbroken, but in practice that's hardly debilitating.

Something like 5% of iPhones are jailbroken right now and that number will rise if Apple try to flex their muscles too hard. Historically and in certain markets much higher numbers have been jailbroken too - for example a few years ago around 30% were jailbroken in China.

The free market is somewhat self-correcting in this respect.


As Dauric notes, you are relying upon exploits of hackers for this feature. Apple has demonstrated their intent and that is all that matters to me personally. Frankly, if I'm going to work with Apple, I'm going to want to work with their rules, no matter how dumb or ridiculous it gets. Its just the fact of a company that has the greatest cash hoard + highest valuation + huge userbase. They are the 800-lb gorilla, and I'm not going to challenge them.

Your argument relies on challenging Apple directly. I say... good luck to you bro, I agree with what you're trying to do. But I'm not going to join that right.

Dauric wrote:That was because Apple's mapping service was hilariously inaccurate, well beyond "3 hour battery" hilarious, it as utterly without use except as the butt of a joke.

Yup. Some of Google's products are so far ahead of the opposition everyone looks inept in comparison ^^


Bing actually got 3d maps working before Apple and Google did. No one cared though.
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:11 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:So... You espouse the hardware that in order to have access to third-party software you have to install a back-door some hacker figured out and exploited? I know no hardware has perfect data security, but I'd rather not have data security I have to drill additional holes in to to get the functionality I want.

This goes especially for people without technical savvy to understand they're drilling holes in their security -and- use the device for their mobile banking apps...

'Espouse'? Not sure I ever expressed approval of the practice - though it's certainly true that my own iProducts are jailbroken.

There are multiple issues being debated in this thread and jailbreaking is merely the counter-argument to it being 'impossible to have a non-approved app on your device'.

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:17 pm UTC

Frankly, if I'm going to work with Apple, I'm going to want to work with their rules, no matter how dumb or ridiculous it gets. Its just the fact of a company that has the greatest cash hoard + highest valuation + huge userbase. They are the 800-lb gorilla, and I'm not going to challenge them.

Your argument relies on challenging Apple directly. I say... good luck to you bro, I agree with what you're trying to do. But I'm not going to join that right.


Huh? I'm not fighting them either. I am an app developer for Apple and I'm going through the marketplace and 'playing by their rules'. I imagine Pebble will too and will quickly rejoin the fold. I could develop for Android as well but Google's lack of oversight means piracy is rife and it wouldn't be worth my time. Apple's lockdown not only benefits the average user it benefits me too.

This conversation is getting confusing ^^

Bing actually got 3d maps working before Apple and Google did. No one cared though.

Then either it didn't work well or wasn't marketted well. Making the product is much less than half the battle - and rightly so: User experience trounces technical superiority every day of the week when it comes to sales.

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby Dauric » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:43 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
Dauric wrote:So... You espouse the hardware that in order to have access to third-party software you have to install a back-door some hacker figured out and exploited? I know no hardware has perfect data security, but I'd rather not have data security I have to drill additional holes in to to get the functionality I want.

This goes especially for people without technical savvy to understand they're drilling holes in their security -and- use the device for their mobile banking apps...

'Espouse'? Not sure I ever expressed approval of the practice - though it's certainly true that my own iProducts are jailbroken.

There are multiple issues being debated in this thread and jailbreaking is merely the counter-argument to it being 'impossible to have a non-approved app on your device'.


The point I've been making is it's a pretty lousy counter argument. Especially when combined with Apple's emphasis on catering to a non-techie customer base, it means you've got people who don't really understand their hardware hearing about "jailbreaking" from the news (ahh the joys of tech/science journalism) opening their devices up by exploiting hacks made by people who clearly do not have the user's best interests at heart, quite possibly on the same piece of hardware they're doing banking transactions on.

But, y'know its -technically possible- to install a non-approved app on your iPhone, regardless of the inherent hazards or the user's understanding of those hazards...
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:55 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
Bing actually got 3d maps working before Apple and Google did. No one cared though.

Then either it didn't work well or wasn't marketted well. Making the product is much less than half the battle - and rightly so: User experience trounces technical superiority every day of the week when it comes to sales.


Because no one wants or cares for 3d maps.

It was just a big dick waving contest between Apple and Google, that got hilarious because Apple's maps were abysmally bad. And those maps still are abysmally bad.

I really don't think you should be talking about "good user experience" when we're talking about the Apple Maps catastrophe. The only real explanation here is the iCult fashion appeal of Apple's stuff honestly.
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby morriswalters » Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:21 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Since you missed the context of my sentence (I wasn't talking about watches) - I'll reiterate: No matter what the product - phone, tablet, computer or smartwatch - if my parents were looking to buy something in that area I'd recommend Apple.

My Mum can't work her DVD recorder - and before that couldn't work her video recorder - but she is fine with her iPad. They must be doing something right...
Okay. I might to. Assuming that they would get the price down. However Apple is selling something in addition to their hardware, a cache, that says Apple is something to be desired, because it is Apple. And the ease of use thing is a thin argument.

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:34 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:The point I've been making is it's a pretty lousy counter argument.

Huh? It's a lousy counter-argument because that's all that's needed to counter the argument of 'it's impossible to install a non-approved app on your phone'.

If you want another counter-argument: 'Avoid buying an Apple phone'. There. Yet another way to get apps not approved by Apple onto your smartphone.

---

The reason the app and smart-device market is so huge in 2015 is down to Apple. They are even the reason why the Android market exists. Before Apple came along it was basically just techies and nerds - of which I am one so I don't use the term pejoratively!

It's a glass half-full/half-empty situation for Pebble as their app has infringed the TOS for years, so they have made many more sales than they would have, and in a marketplace that largely wouldn't exist without Apple.

They'll go away and ensure their app complies and probably be back in a matter of days. No big deal.

(And, note, Apple's trailblazing isn't especially on the technical side - it's on managing to make phones and apps both userfriendly and, above all, sexy. That benefits all of us who follow - whether within Apple's walled-off-garden or outside. And that includes Pebble.)

KnightExemplar wrote:Because no one wants or cares for 3d maps.

Oh, the fight was over 3d maps not 2d ones? How bizarre. I assumed you were saying Bing created better 2d maps than Google did subsequently and noone cared.

Of course 2d mapping was around way before Bing or Google. I remember using Multimap more than a decade ago - and note that Bing actually bought them out. In their day MM was more than decent.

morriswalters wrote:However Apple is selling something in addition to their hardware, a cache, that says Apple is something to be desired, because it is Apple.

People buy Apple products because they are Apple, yes, but Apple's reputation isn't baseless and circular. It's is justified: People buy Apple because they trust the user-experience will be better than other companies - because in the past it has been better than from other companies.

Not perfect - as we saw with mapping - just better.

It's the same reason I prefer Windows to Linux: Linux is undoubtedly the technically superior offering, but I just find Windows more user-friendly and always have. (I don't have any recent experience with MacOS to be fair)

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:45 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Because no one wants or cares for 3d maps.

Oh, the fight was over 3d maps not 2d ones? How bizarre. I assumed you were saying Bing created better 2d maps than Google did subsequently and noone cared.


Yup. 3d maps baby. Look at this older article for example.

http://gizmodo.com/5945082/apple-knows- ... get-better

Image

It is very clear that Apple's problem was their unnecessary "3d-ification" of the maps. They just wanted to have some feature that distinguished them from Google during the whole iMap vs Google Maps spat. It's hilarious in hindsight.

Then, Bing then implemented their "birds eye view" maps and have very good "3d effects". You can definitely tell height and such from Bing's perspective. I figure Apple and Google have fixed their 3d map views by now... but Microsoft Bing was definitely the first that got it right... for whatever matter that was worth.

But yeah, such a big spat over a feature that really doesn't matter.
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby elasto » Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:50 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Bing then implemented their "birds eye view" maps and have very good "3d effects". You can definitely tell height and such from Bing's perspective. I figure Apple and Google have fixed their 3d map views by now... but Microsoft Bing was definitely the first that got it right... for whatever matter that was worth.

Ah. Fair play to them. I have nothing against Windows, and, as the addition to my last post says, am actually a big fan. As a coder, Visual Studio is an amazing product for example, and massive kudos to MS for basically giving it away for free.

In a way Apple to Android is a bit like Windows to Linux: Android and Linux are indisputably the technically superior products (and patently far less locked down), but Apple and Windows are the ones that exploded the marketplace and the ones I'd recommend to any ordinary user. But all of us are the beneficiaries of the trailblazing that Apple and MS did - even those who use Android and Linux exclusively.

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby Tirian » Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:55 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Of course 2d mapping was around way before Bing or Google. I remember using Multimap more than a decade ago - and note that Bing actually bought them out. In their day MM was more than decent.


Goes back longer than that. I think one of the most noble things Microsoft ever did was buying Automap in 1984 and changing the price point from ~$500 to ~$30. Putting perfectly competent route planning software in the hands of the masses.

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby K-R » Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:07 pm UTC

Wait, are there seriously people in this thread suggesting that Apple should be forced to sell a product they don't want to sell, in the name of the "free market"?

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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:12 pm UTC

K-R wrote:Wait, are there seriously people in this thread suggesting that Apple should be forced to sell a product they don't want to sell, in the name of the "free market"?


Nope. I'm saying they should be forced to do so in the name of "competition", since it is clear that the free market is failing at providing fair competition at this juncture.
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Re: Apple bans Pebble Smartwatch App "SeaNav" from its app s

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:13 pm UTC

K-R wrote:Wait, are there seriously people in this thread suggesting that Apple should be forced to sell a product they don't want to sell, in the name of the "free market"?


Not universally. I think most folks are entirely okay with the idea of apple screening apps for a wide number of reasons.

Just not using dominance in one area to try to get a monopoly in another area. Even the most pro-market folks tend to be anti-monopoly, because monopolies break markets. No surprises there.


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