Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

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CorruptUser
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:43 pm UTC

Most of the Baathists didn't join ISIS. What happened in Iraq was that we "won" the peace by hiring the Sunni insurgents, used them as death squads to eliminate the Shia militias, pull out of Iraq because the Iraqis refused to continue to give US troops immunity, Maliki (a Shia) then stops paying the mercenaries (Cardinal rule of war; pay the mercenary), Maliki fires the second in command of Iraq (a Sunni) which makes it looks like he's about to start some ol' fashioned oppression, Sunnis rebel again.

As for the Iraq army, useless piece of shits mostly, but most of their troops only existed on documents; commanders would claim a thousand paychecks for a hundred troops. Then when ISIS came, the remaining soldiers didn't feel like spilling their blood to protect Sunni or Kurdish cities, and well, now.


Also, it's not as far fetched that the Sunnis and Shia work together as you think. Remember the Khobar Towers bombing? That was Osama working with IRAN. Osama's whole shtick that was the game changer was rather than focus on the near enemy (Egypt/Saudi Arabia), then the heretics (Shia), then the far enemy (Israel), then the world, the supporter of the near enemy was the US so target then first. Forget the Shia Sunni war; live as brothers and accept all Muslims as long as they murder the fuck out of the West. It kind of worked; we became less friendly to the Saudis thanks to Osama.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:58 pm UTC

No one wants the land? I bet that if we had Turkey, Syria, and Iraq give up a portion each you could make a nice little Kurdistan that the Kurds would be very happy to maintain and kick the shit out of Daesh.
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Lazar » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:23 pm UTC

I could see a small independent Kurdistan emerging from Iraqi and Syrian territory, but Turkey would never cede anything to them.
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:09 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:The overwhelming majority of Muslim attacks do seem to "go for mass casualties", unlike Right-Wing extremists. So I'll give you that much. Nonetheless, there are far more right-wing extremists than Muslim extremists in America. And overall, the casualties since 9/11 still lean towards right-wing extremist groups.


You're missing the issue here.

First off, categorizing all non-jihadists as "right wing extremists" is...wildly strange, and bordering on intellectually dishonest.


Aside from the "Mother Jones" article, all the statistics I've been posting are right-wing extremists numbers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opini ... hreat.html


Wow, Mother Jones is awful.

First off, we've got some broken links for their sources. And numerous citations like "an officer". Wow, couldn't even ID his department? And, I have significant doubt that most of these incidents listed are in fact right wing people. This looks like a hit piece designed to bash right wing folks.

And in their best and shining examples, they're rapidly down to "guy wanted to rob an armored car, but got caught". Wow. That's a horrifying threat right there. That's less terrorism, and more of "crazy guy commits crime".

There's no understanding of proportionality there. Even if those numbers are all correct(which does not seem transparent to check), the rate is ridiculously unequal, and does not match their conclusion.

Look, all the specific events they cite, add up to a total of one death. One. That's not particularly terrifying. And if that's the best evidence they have, that tells me that all the deaths in their numbers are from events that are much, much less persuasively attributable to right wing folks.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby BeerBottle » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:06 pm UTC

Koa wrote:No condemnation of that sort is necessary, just reform to create a type of Islam that doesn't generate violent radicals. A new Quran with more of a focus on the shared humanist values of the modern peaceful Muslims. Deconvolute the ideology and the battlefield so that people can talk about it without alluding to the billions of the faith with every act or critique.
Not sure if a serious suggestion, but changing the Quran is pretty much not going to happen. The Quran is seen as the literal word of god, so "editing" it isn't really possible. However, what most people don't relise is that the Quran isn't the problem, it is the Hadith an Sunnah that are the root of this kind of violence. Sure, you can quote a Quran verse out of context, but in a nutshell, the overall view of the Quran on war is rather conservative by modern standards, certainly by western standards.

Essentially, only fight those who fight you first - do not be aggressive - and if your opponent asks for peace you must accept. Do not conquer territory except what an enemy takes from you first. That is not a violent philosophy, it is really as close as a real world society can be to pacifism.

The quran has no punishment for apostasy (although you will find several convoluted discussions (from non muslims) online trying to state that it does). There is no compulsion in religion.
In personal affairs, pacifism is encouraged (even if it leads to ones death)
All the crazy bad stuff comes from the Hadith (supposed sayings of the prophet). What does the Quran say about hadith?

"Among the people, there is one who trades in baseless hadith to mislead from the path of God without knowledge and he does it as a mockery. For these is a humiliating punishment.” 31:6

http://www.quran-islam.org/home_(P1).html

Maybe this is the reformed Islam of which you seek? Not through changing the Quran but actually following it.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby eran_rathan » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:13 pm UTC

BeerBottle wrote:
Koa wrote:No condemnation of that sort is necessary, just reform to create a type of Islam that doesn't generate violent radicals. A new Quran with more of a focus on the shared humanist values of the modern peaceful Muslims. Deconvolute the ideology and the battlefield so that people can talk about it without alluding to the billions of the faith with every act or critique.
Not sure if a serious suggestion, but changing the Quran is pretty much not going to happen. The Quran is seen as the literal word of god, so "editing" it isn't really possible. However, what most people don't relise is that the Quran isn't the problem, it is the Hadith an Sunnah that are the root of this kind of violence. Sure, you can quote a Quran verse out of context, but in a nutshell, the overall view of the Quran on war is rather conservative by modern standards, certainly by western standards.

Essentially, only fight those who fight you first - do not be aggressive - and if your opponent asks for peace you must accept. Do not conquer territory except what an enemy takes from you first. That is not a violent philosophy, it is really as close as a real world society can be to pacifism.

The quran has no punishment for apostasy (although you will find several convoluted discussions (from non muslims) online trying to state that it does). There is no compulsion in religion.
In personal affairs, pacifism is encouraged (even if it leads to ones death)
All the crazy bad stuff comes from the Hadith (supposed sayings of the prophet). What does the Quran say about hadith?

"Among the people, there is one who trades in baseless hadith to mislead from the path of God without knowledge and he does it as a mockery. For these is a humiliating punishment.” 31:6

http://www.quran-islam.org/home_(P1).html

Maybe this is the reformed Islam of which you seek? Not through changing the Quran but actually following it.


Most (if not all) of my (American) Muslim friends say the same thing. Ignore the hadiths, and you end up with a fairly amiable religion (heck, Muhammed himself drafted a constitution for a multicultural society to work together, which included Pagans, Muslims, and Jews.)
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby sardia » Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:13 pm UTC

The Jews and Christians said the same thing before they got 'improved' by the subsequent religion. Islam is no different.

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CorruptUser
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:22 am UTC

Except without the Hadiths, there is no way to handwave the numerous, numerous contradictions in the Quran. As for multicultural? Umm....

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Mambrino » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:23 am UTC

Central Brussels was almost empty on Saturday night as a terror alert led restaurants and bars to shut early amid fears of a Paris-style attack. (BBC)

BBC wrote:Soldiers patrolled the streets as a manhunt continued for the fugitive Salah Abdeslam, who is wanted in connection with last week's attacks.

Friends said he was in the Brussels area and trying to get to Syria.

The city was a base for the attackers - Islamic State militants - who killed 130 people in Paris.

The Belgian authorities placed Brussels on its highest level of alert late on Friday.

Prime Minister Charles Michel said later there had been "quite precise information" that "several individuals with arms and explosives could launch an attack... perhaps even in several places".

(...)

Friends of Abdeslam told ABC News they had spoken to him on Skype and said he was hiding in Brussels and desperately trying to get to Syria.

They said he was caught between European authorities hunting him and so-called Islamic State members who were "watching him" and were unhappy that he had not detonated his suicide belt.

Brussels residents were told to avoid crowds, the metro was closed along with cinemas and shopping malls, cafes and restaurants were asked to shut at 6pm and soldiers deployed on the streets.

The US embassy told Americans in the country to stay indoors and the US European Command issued a 72-hour restriction on travel to the city by all military personnel and contractors.


Reminiscent of the Boston shutdown, yes? I can give them that they apparently now know there is this quite likely a possibly unstable fellow wearing a suicide vest hiding somewhere, and possibly more evidence about some larger terror attack plan. On the other hand, these people's mere existence is able to shut down a whole city, maybe for a indefinitely long time period.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby commodorejohn » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:54 pm UTC

They said he was caught between European authorities hunting him and so-called Islamic State members who were "watching him" and were unhappy that he had not detonated his suicide belt.

Geez Louise, what a macabre situation to find yourself in. It's almost enough to make me feel a little sorry for this fuck.
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby KnightExemplar » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:55 pm UTC

Reminiscent of the Boston shutdown, yes? I can give them that they apparently now know there is this quite likely a possibly unstable fellow wearing a suicide vest hiding somewhere, and possibly more evidence about some larger terror attack plan. On the other hand, these people's mere existence is able to shut down a whole city, maybe for a indefinitely long time period.


The Boston shutdown was closer to the high-level of police action that occurred in Paris. 5000 rounds of ammunition and enough grenades tossed to destroy an entire floor of a building. The ringleader was later identified through partial palm prints. I'd argue that the Boston issue was closer to "revenge", as soon as the Police knew they had a chance at nabbing the perpetrator (dead or alive), they went for it, even if it meant shutting down a city.

Belgium was a different situation, since this is intelligence saying that a plot is eminent. There is almost always an eminent plot to attack some country somewhere, but such worries usually don't shut down a city.

Still, note that Belgium has the highest number of ISIS foreign fighters per capita. Belgium is expected to have ~520ish citizens who have become ISIS militants in a relatively small country. France is expected to have ~1600 citizens who have become ISIS Militants (greatest number of ISIS foreign fighters period), just in case you need a reference point.

commodorejohn wrote:
They said he was caught between European authorities hunting him and so-called Islamic State members who were "watching him" and were unhappy that he had not detonated his suicide belt.

Geez Louise, what a macabre situation to find yourself in. It's almost enough to make me feel a little sorry for this fuck.


Wow. I somehow missed that sentence until you highlighted it.
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CorruptUser
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:00 pm UTC

So, umm, capture him and offer "leniency" in exchange for providing good intelligence on other ISIS members?

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby dg61 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 10:08 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:So, umm, capture him and offer "leniency" in exchange for providing good intelligence on other ISIS members?


I was thinking more or less this-"Surrender, let us debrief you for intelligence, and we'll give you a false passport, a one-way ticket to Aruba or someplace else suitably pleasant and distant from anything much, and a bank account into which we will regularly deposit specially nontransferable payments".

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:39 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Except without the Hadiths, there is no way to handwave the numerous, numerous contradictions in the Quran. As for multicultural? Umm....


Well, the Bible has contradictions too...they just have different solutions for them. Interpretations, etc. And those definitely have changed. Building up a similar body of generally accepted practices could happen.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby Mambrino » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:58 am UTC

BBC: Paris attacks: 'Suicide bomb belt' dumped on street

French police are examining what appears to be a suicide bomb belt dumped on a Paris street following attacks that killed 130 people. It is said to resemble belts used by the attackers and was found in a suburb which a suspect is thought to have passed through after the attacks.


Someone nope'd a suicide mission? They just had an extra one? Has it been lying there all the time since the attacks? Huh.

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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby HES » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:26 am UTC

Mambrino wrote:Someone nope'd a suicide mission? They just had an extra one? Has it been lying there all the time since the attacks? Huh.

They may wear suicide vests not with the intention of using them, but as a backup if they get cornered. It's plausible that is was dumped once the job was done.
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Re: Over 100 dead in shooting, bombing in Paris

Postby eran_rathan » Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:46 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Except without the Hadiths, there is no way to handwave the numerous, numerous contradictions in the Quran. As for multicultural? Umm....


On my phone, but you can play the same game with the Bible and the Torah as well. Religion is not typically noted for its internal consistency.

The text of the Constitution of Medina, however, is pretty explicit about allowing each tribe to handle its own religious beliefs.

Edit: what Tyndmyr said.
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