Bundyite militia seizes federal building

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Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Lazar » Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:45 am UTC

An armed group associated with the Bundy family, with about 150 members, has seized an unoccupied building belonging to a federal wildlife refuge in Oregon. Apparently this is in retaliation for a pair of ranchers being convicted of arson. They claim to be preparing for a long standoff – no doubt encouraged by the tepid federal response to their antics in 2014.

They've already caused disruption to the nearby community, which has canceled school for the week.
Last edited by Lazar on Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:05 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Angua » Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:00 pm UTC

But it's ok, they aren't terrorists. Despite things like saying goodbye to their family, and wanting to die a free man.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby leady » Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:43 pm UTC

I suspect if isis did nothing more than token occupations of meaningless buildings then no one would care about them either

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby sardia » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:34 pm UTC

There's local support for whatever grievance they have affiant federal control over grazing rights. If you read the NPR article it states a boring " protestors gather at wild life refugee building, some opt to stay as most leave ".
That Bundy guy is racist, but this is like occupy Wall St but with guns.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Angua » Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:17 pm UTC

leady wrote:I suspect if isis did nothing more than token occupations of meaningless buildings then no one would care about them either


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2331

(5) the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

Definitely fits criteria Bii and C, and I would argue fits criterion A due to the fact they self-describe themselves as a 'militia'. If that's not a threat then don't know what is.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/drama_in_burns_ends_with_quiet.html
In phone interviews from inside the occupied building Saturday night, Ammon Bundy and his brother, Ryan Bundy, said they are not looking to hurt anyone. But they would not rule out violence if police tried to remove them, they said.

"The facility has been the tool to do all the tyranny that has been placed upon the Hammonds," Ammon Bundy said.

"We're planning on staying here for years, absolutely," he added. "This is not a decision we've made at the last minute."

...

Among those joining Bundy in the occupation are Ryan Payne, U.S. Army veteran, and Blaine Cooper. Payne has claimed to have helped organize militia snipers to target federal agents in a standoff last year in Nevada. He told one news organization the federal agents would have been killed had they made the wrong move.


Edit- also of note:Image (note the 'seize/take' bit at the end.)

Edit2 -
sardia wrote:There's local support for whatever grievance they have affiant federal control over grazing rights. If you read the NPR article it states a boring " protestors gather at wild life refugee building, some opt to stay as most leave ".
That Bundy guy is racist, but this is like occupy Wall St but with guns.
If you read the OP - schools in the area have shut for the week. Someone thinks it a bit more serious than Occupy Wall Street, or a 'boring protestors gather'.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby KnightExemplar » Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:03 pm UTC

leady wrote:I suspect if isis did nothing more than token occupations of meaningless buildings then no one would care about them either


It isn't meaningless if the Bundy group is making reasons for it. That's the problem.

If Feds attack, its "Big Government disrespects our freedom" (for... something). If Feds do nothing, Bundy group will just come back in a few years and grab a bigger target. I say we send tanks at them, or otherwise severely armored units with little chance to get damaged by small-arms fire. With cameras, to prove whether or not "Bundy shot first".

The only problem is that sending tanks is innately "offensive" and probably will set them off. Maybe if the tank-drivers had a publicity stunt ("I'm a Major in the American Army, and I've been commanded to defend the Constitution against the rebellious Bundy groups. I'm going in with my Tank, in hopes that they peacefully comply and surrender."). Tweet the whole thing out live, escalate a social-media war over it.

EDIT: Oh right, its a wildlife preserve. Probably not a good place to send tanks and burn everything. Bundy group would probably shoot and lots of people would get hurt anyway.

I'm just concerned because if the group is really of size ~150 or so, they've reached cult status. They probably don't give a fuck about anyone that they inconvenience at this point. Counter-protesters have already posted signs urging them to go home, and that's obviously not going to work. If the group is ~150 or so maybe its best to just starve them of supplies (ie: arrest anyone who goes to town for supplies).

-------

In any case, if anyone wants to hear Bundy's point of view
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby sardia » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:18 pm UTC

Why haven't the cops considered sending in a few sacrificial police officers. Send them in with batons, tasers and handcuffs. Shoot everyone if the cops don't come back out.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Thesh » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:47 pm UTC

Surround the building, cut off their water and electricity, shine flood lights, blast loud music, and wait them out.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:48 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:If Feds attack, its "Big Government disrespects our freedom" (for... something). If Feds do nothing, Bundy group will just come back in a few years and grab a bigger target. I say we send tanks at them, or otherwise severely armored units with little chance to get damaged by small-arms fire. With cameras, to prove whether or not "Bundy shot first".


Couple of predator drones hovering overhead for awhile would probably do the trick. No need to put anybody at risk. If they want to play terrorist, treat them like terrorists.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby morriswalters » Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:51 pm UTC

Kill the power and water to the site. Other than that let it go. Don't let anyone else in. It's winter. It's cold, and if no one can get in then food can't. They consider themselves pioneers. Let them hunt for their food. Chop wood for their fuel and figure out how to balance their diet without fresh vegetables. The park will recover from the damage and the locals will get to see if having the park makes a difference, when no one can use it. Park a surveillance dirigible at high altitude and watch them so if they leave you can keep them from coming back. When it all said and done and they want to leave, then let them. And then sue them for damages and take their property if they lose.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:46 am UTC

I still don't think that killing them is the right answer.

Still though...

And then sue them for damages and take their property if they lose.


Ted Bundy owes the government millions of dollars because of the rancher case from a few years ago. I somehow doubt that this group respects official court orders or documents.

So maybe force is all that is left.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby sardia » Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:23 am UTC

Don't most sieges end badly? Are we really at the point where the total crimes equal death? These aren't darkies, gotta treat them with a modicum of respect, or else all that racism was pointless.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:26 am UTC

Be that what it may, the local news (in my area anyway) is treating them as simple protesters right now. My local news hasn't mentioned that they are armed or anything. You can't just go in guns a blazing vs "simple protesters".
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:22 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:My local news hasn't mentioned that they are armed or anything.
The Times and the WaPo disagree.
sardia wrote:These aren't darkies, gotta treat them with a modicum of respect, or else all that racism was pointless.
It should be telling to you about how Americans feel about race when a substantial number of people see these fools as hero's. Really shitty isn't it, how white people are like that.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:50 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:My local news hasn't mentioned that they are armed or anything.
The Times and the WaPo disagree.


I recognize that.

It doesn't change how my local news is reporting on the issue however. Its "Oregon protesters standoff against Federal Agents" as a short headline on this issue.

EDIT: They seem to have updated the story to "armed protesters" at this point. Maybe local news was a bit late on the issue.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:06 am UTC

Angua wrote:Edit2 -
sardia wrote:There's local support for whatever grievance they have affiant federal control over grazing rights. If you read the NPR article it states a boring " protestors gather at wild life refugee building, some opt to stay as most leave ".
That Bundy guy is racist, but this is like occupy Wall St but with guns.
If you read the OP - schools in the area have shut for the week. Someone thinks it a bit more serious than Occupy Wall Street, or a 'boring protestors gather'.


Schools get shut down for all kinds of stupid reasons. You can shut down a school with bathroom graffiti (not an isolated case btw) It's always some kid who wants attention or isn't ready for their finals/midterms, actual violence is never really on the table.

These bozos may mean business, but unless the school is like, across the street from the occupied building (it's not, I looked on google maps), I'm not sure what danger closing the school is supposed to protect against. Somebody just wanted to be seen 'Doing Somethingtm' and 'Thinking of the Childrentm'. That or a week longer of winter break.

As far as dealing with this specific situation:

Attention is what they want and giving it to them will only encourage them and others to take more drastic actions. As such, minimal media coverage is for the best, and the government reaction should be swift and decisive to further limit exposure.
There are noxious crowd-dispersal chemicals that could probably get them out of the building in short order. Though there's always the chance that they could counter-act or otherwise withstand the effects for several days which would be much too long. I'd give them a 24 hour deadline, during which the chemicals are employed along with LRADs and bright lights, etc. If anyone is left when the deadline expires, drop a Hellfire on the building. The structure probably wouldn't be re-usable after the noxious gas exposure anyway.
The Russians would probably just give them until the count of three and then drop a nerve agent or something on them. There are extremely deadly chemical weapons that degrade rapidly in the environment, but I don't think there are any effective non-lethal chemical agents that are as easy to clean up. Not that there aren't plenty of other reasons to avoid spraying nerve gas all willy-nilly like.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Zamfir » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:47 am UTC

What if they just do nothing for a few months, perhaps send them a bill for the use of the building? Noxious gas might be exactly what they are looking for. Martyrdom without real consequences.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby leady » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:43 am UTC

Oh its definitely sedition, but I can't think the last time that law was used in the west - generally doesn't play well to a open governmental system. Terrorism is far less obvious through, even if they can strictly match the criteria, one of the underpinning intents of terrorism is to well cause terror. Well I don't see anyone being afraid of the brutal occupation of an abandoned nature reserve, in the way that a real "occupy with rifles" actually would.

A couple of weeks of no light food or power will work its magic - if not then the ATF can always WACO them

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Lazar » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:03 am UTC

leady wrote:Oh its definitely sedition, but I can't think the last time that law was used in the west - generally doesn't play well to a open governmental system.

Um, 2010? You're probably thinking of things like the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 or the Sedition Act of 1918, which were clear cases of overreach, but seditious conspiracy as defined in the statute that Angua linked is a perfectly reasonable thing to prosecute someone for.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby leady » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:47 am UTC

fair enough - but you'll note that all those recent examples are good old fashioned American justice system extras rather than a pure sedition prosecution. Basically they murdered people and this is used to prove the sedition. I don't think anyone would (or should) accept sedition laws being used on their own - after all a lot of minority groups are essentially seditious in the broadest sense (or at least were)

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:39 pm UTC

It's a balmy 9 degrees in the Park this morning. The only trees in sight are at the Station. The weather forecast calls for a rain/snow mix. With daytime temperatures hovering slightly below freezing. No fuel is available at the station, gotta go to town.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:07 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Why haven't the cops considered sending in a few sacrificial police officers. Send them in with batons, tasers and handcuffs. Shoot everyone if the cops don't come back out.


This sounds like a horrible plan. Sacrificing people as a justification to kill more seems wildly unnecessary.

This is, in the end, merely armed tresspassing. Also known as a misdemeanor in Oregon. Maaaaybe that shouldn't call for widespread demands of murder and sending in tanks. You wanna know why police militarization is a problem? This attitude right here.

Tresspassing as part of a protest isn't really all that uncommon, anyway. Maybe not a good decision on their part(though, yknow, getting attention is sort of the point, and they did do that), but it's not really all that odd.

sardia wrote:Don't most sieges end badly? Are we really at the point where the total crimes equal death? These aren't darkies, gotta treat them with a modicum of respect, or else all that racism was pointless.


The purpose of pointing out racial abuses is to STOP racial abuses. Not to promote them happening to more people.

Zamfir wrote:What if they just do nothing for a few months, perhaps send them a bill for the use of the building? Noxious gas might be exactly what they are looking for. Martyrdom without real consequences.


Well, yes, they have a persecution complex. More persecution will only provide more evidence for them that they are justified. Sending them a bill for any use or damages seems quite fair, and undercuts their message. All their bravado about being willing to face whatever horrible things the government will do to them ends up looking pretty weak if the only thing they have to face is boredom.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:11 pm UTC

When the "protesters" have rocks, you arm your police with Riot Shields and helmets so that the Police don't get hurt when they're interacting with the protesters. When the protesters have guns, your options are much more limited. APCs and Tanks are the minimum protection needed, since it is relatively unlikely for the protesters in that building to have anti-tank or anti-armor weaponry.

Tanks vs Protesters with rocks == bad idea. Riot Shields and Helmets are probably sufficient. Tanks vs Guns... well... I'm much more supportive for that.

If they actually brought RPGs with them, then I dunno what can be done.

Tyndmyr wrote:
Zamfir wrote:What if they just do nothing for a few months, perhaps send them a bill for the use of the building? Noxious gas might be exactly what they are looking for. Martyrdom without real consequences.


Well, yes, they have a persecution complex. More persecution will only provide more evidence for them that they are justified. Sending them a bill for any use or damages seems quite fair, and undercuts their message. All their bravado about being willing to face whatever horrible things the government will do to them ends up looking pretty weak if the only thing they have to face is boredom.


I do like the idea, but what happens if they decide not to pay up?
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:25 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I do like the idea, but what happens if they decide not to pay up?


Fines, fees. Eventually a court case. Which they lose if they don't show up to. Eventually wage garnishment or withholding of tax refunds.

Like any debts, really. It's a long, slow process, but that's fine.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:28 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:What if they just do nothing for a few months, perhaps send them a bill for the use of the building? Noxious gas might be exactly what they are looking for. Martyrdom without real consequences.

The longer this goes on, the more attention it gets and the worse/more numerous potential follow-up demonstrations/attacks will be. Lazar is essentially correct that the (lack of) Federal response to the 2014 incident lead directly to this.
Ignoring it and sending a bill when they finally give up would work, but only if the media can ignore it also, which they won't.
I don't believe they should be killed if it can be avoided, but doing so sooner rather than later is going to be less likely to create martyrs.

I'm specifically advocating for use of non-lethal crowd-dispersal agents that should force them out without much in the way of negative health effects, and only move on to lethal means if that fails to work in a timely manner.

What probably will happen though is a protracted siege which ends with a Waco reenactment.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:33 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
Zamfir wrote:What if they just do nothing for a few months, perhaps send them a bill for the use of the building? Noxious gas might be exactly what they are looking for. Martyrdom without real consequences.

The longer this goes on, the more attention it gets and the worse/more numerous potential follow-up demonstrations/attacks will be. Lazar is essentially correct that the (lack of) Federal response to the 2014 incident lead directly to this.


Sort of. The fact that the Bundy kids are in this mob, sure. That follows. But they're just a couple of people, that the media is playing up because of a relationship to something similar. It isn't their party, precisely, though. I mean, sure, they're co-opting the existing grievance to further their own ends, but they didn't start the troubles.

Those were pre-existing, and go way back. There's a long trend of rancher/federal land disputes, with a lot of folks with similar concerns in that part of the country. You don't get a whole bunch of people willing to march without some sharing of concerns.

Ignoring it and sending a bill when they finally give up would work, but only if the media can ignore it also, which they won't.
I don't believe they should be killed if it can be avoided, but doing so sooner rather than later is going to be less likely to create martyrs.

I'm specifically advocating for use of non-lethal crowd-dispersal agents that should force them out without much in the way of negative health effects, and only move on to lethal means if that fails to work in a timely manner.

What probably will happen though is a protracted siege which ends with a Waco reenactment.


If they've got military gear, gas masks are fairly trivial to use.

I also don't think that "kill them to prevent more demonstrations in the future" is a valid strategy if you're promoting democracy, and not some kind of totalitarian murder-fest.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:44 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
I also don't think that "kill them to prevent more demonstrations in the future" is a valid strategy if you're promoting democracy, and not some kind of totalitarian murder-fest.


Well it depends on if you view them as terrorists or not.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:08 pm UTC

Time is on the governments side. It's cold and isolated. Doing nothing gives the idiots inside nothing to do and nothing to rail against. They're out in the middle of nowhere. Try and see if they get tired and just go home. It would be nice if they could kill the power.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby ijuin » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:29 pm UTC

It must be a sign of how twisted I am that the name "Bundy" made me think first of "Married...With Children" and that this was a "NO MA'AM" protest.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby commodorejohn » Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:26 pm UTC

It absolutely boggles my mind how many allegedly civilized human beings are apparently cool with killing people for essentially no crime greater than "trespassing while being creepy." I mean, if they were actually pulling guns on the cops or something that would be one thing, but jeezus.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:39 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:It absolutely boggles my mind how many allegedly civilized human beings are apparently cool with killing people for essentially no crime greater than "trespassing while being creepy." I mean, if they were actually pulling guns on the cops or something that would be one thing, but jeezus.


What do you feel that the correct response to an armed uprising within your country should be?

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:45 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:It absolutely boggles my mind how many allegedly civilized human beings are apparently cool with killing people for essentially no crime greater than "trespassing while being creepy." I mean, if they were actually pulling guns on the cops or something that would be one thing, but jeezus.

Nono, I totally agree, the way our cops kill people of color for no other crime than 'being a person of color' is absolutely mindblowing.

Oh, that's not what you were talking about was it?
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby commodorejohn » Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:48 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:What do you feel that the correct response to an armed uprising within your country should be?

Well, I'd prefer one that didn't involve the mass slaughter of people who, as yet, haven't killed anybody. You know, because this is civilization and all. But I'm just weird like that.

Izawwlgood wrote:Nono, I totally agree, the way our cops kill people of color for no other crime than 'being a person of color' is absolutely mindblowing.

Oh, that's not what you were talking about was it?

I don't disagree in the slightest, but no, it's not what I was talking about, except in the general sense that I'm opposed to people who haven't done anything that deserves death being killed by agents of an allegedly civilized country.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Jan 04, 2016 6:58 pm UTC

The double standard is that people of color are being killed for doing virtually nothing, but white people are fully arming themselves, writing suicide letters/saying goodbye to their family, and taking over buildings while issuing threats to the Federal Government, and you're arguing for restraint.

This to me is why BlackLivesMatter is such an important movement, as well as why while I'm not for nuking the compound from orbit, I would have little issue with an armed response to remove these people from the premises. They are actually factually breaking the law, violently and threateningly, and you're suggesting that we 'just keep cool'.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby commodorejohn » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:05 pm UTC

No, I'm suggesting that we try to avoid escalating to mass slaughter for hypothetical political convenience as a number of people in this very thread have suggested that we do (even to the absolutely jaw-dropping point of suggesting that we send people in to be killed as a pretext for killing them!)
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morriswalters
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:06 pm UTC

What do you feel that the correct response to an armed uprising within your country should be?
When they start shooting, shoot back. Until that happens this is a protest.

Tyndmyr
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:41 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
I also don't think that "kill them to prevent more demonstrations in the future" is a valid strategy if you're promoting democracy, and not some kind of totalitarian murder-fest.


Well it depends on if you view them as terrorists or not.


Definitely not. Idiots. Petty criminals. Attention seeking, sure. But not terrorists. They ain't killin' folks, they deliberately went where people were not. That's the opposite of what terrorists do.

commodorejohn wrote:It absolutely boggles my mind how many allegedly civilized human beings are apparently cool with killing people for essentially no crime greater than "trespassing while being creepy." I mean, if they were actually pulling guns on the cops or something that would be one thing, but jeezus.


Yeah, this. Apparently half of facebook and twitter thirsts for blood. It's incredibly disturbing.

LaserGuy wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:It absolutely boggles my mind how many allegedly civilized human beings are apparently cool with killing people for essentially no crime greater than "trespassing while being creepy." I mean, if they were actually pulling guns on the cops or something that would be one thing, but jeezus.


What do you feel that the correct response to an armed uprising within your country should be?


It isn't an uprising, either. If you're doing an uprising, you, yknow, rise up against the people in charge. Not against an empty cabin in the woods.

Izawwlgood wrote:The double standard is that people of color are being killed for doing virtually nothing, but white people are fully arming themselves, writing suicide letters/saying goodbye to their family, and taking over buildings while issuing threats to the Federal Government, and you're arguing for restraint.

This to me is why BlackLivesMatter is such an important movement, as well as why while I'm not for nuking the compound from orbit, I would have little issue with an armed response to remove these people from the premises. They are actually factually breaking the law, violently and threateningly, and you're suggesting that we 'just keep cool'.


And literally nobody here is arguing in favor of minorities being killed for doing virtually nothing.

So, take yer straw man elsewhere, please.

cphite
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby cphite » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:52 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:It absolutely boggles my mind how many allegedly civilized human beings are apparently cool with killing people for essentially no crime greater than "trespassing while being creepy." I mean, if they were actually pulling guns on the cops or something that would be one thing, but jeezus.


What do you feel that the correct response to an armed uprising within your country should be?


In this case, relatively little. Cut the water and power, wait them out, arrest them when they surrender. When you throw around broad labels like "armed uprising" it's easy to get carried away.

And really, calling this an "armed uprising" is a bit of a stretch. It's more of an armed sit-in.

Just out of curiosity, would you have advocated an armed response against the Occupy Wall Street folks? They didn't have guns, but they were actively holding public land, and technically by force. They were throwing rocks and bottles at police and at innocent bystanders, there were several incidents of physical assault on bystanders, fires, damage to property... all in all, they were demonstrably more violent and destructive than these folks in Oregon.

Does mere possession of a weapon make an otherwise peaceful protester worse than some thug throwing bottles of piss and shit?

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LaserGuy
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:02 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:What do you feel that the correct response to an armed uprising within your country should be?


Well, I'd prefer one that didn't involve the mass slaughter of people who, as yet, haven't killed anybody. You know, because this is civilization and all. But I'm just weird like that.

Izawwlgood wrote:Nono, I totally agree, the way our cops kill people of color for no other crime than 'being a person of color' is absolutely mindblowing.

Oh, that's not what you were talking about was it?


I don't disagree in the slightest, but no, it's not what I was talking about, except in the general sense that I'm opposed to people who haven't done anything that deserves death being killed by agents of an allegedly civilized country.


We routinely kill far more people for doing far less than these guys have. This is a country that defines a "militant" worthy of execution as "a male of military age".

cphite wrote:Does mere possession of a weapon make an otherwise peaceful protester worse than some thug throwing bottles of piss and shit?


Consider two scenarios. In one, I come to your house and complain that your dog has been barking all night and it kept my baby from sleeping. In the other, I come to your house and complain that your dog has been barking all night and it kept my baby from sleeping, and I'm carrying my AR-15 while I'm talking to you. Do you believe those scenarios are identical?

[edit]Fixed quotations.

Mutex
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Mutex » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:07 pm UTC

And in the second scenario on top of having an AR-15, you made lots of threats trying to provoke a reaction.


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