Bundyite militia seizes federal building

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:09 pm UTC

Point. They likely have more contact.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby freezeblade » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:35 pm UTC

Cliven Bundy arrested in Oregon. Standoff to end tomorrow as militants may surrender.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/10/us/oregon-standoff/

Finally this will be all over? or at least, the standoff may end.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby commodorejohn » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:56 pm UTC

I'm sure various people here will be terribly disappointed that more of them weren't killed.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby sardia » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:03 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:I'm sure various people here will be terribly disappointed that more of them weren't killed.

I'm sure there are more who are disappointed this didn't end in open revolt.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Dauric » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:07 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:I'm sure various people here will be terribly disappointed that more of them weren't killed.

I'm sure there are more who are disappointed this didn't end in open revolt.


Apparently there was a live broadcast over the internet last night, the occupiers believed the feds were going to kill them all, and expressed .. I suppose 'bafflement' would be the right word.. that there weren't others joining their cause.

I only heard bits and pieces of the recording on NPR this morning, so I don't necessarily have the whole context of the broadcast.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby freezeblade » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:11 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:I only heard bits and pieces of the recording on NPR this morning, so I don't necessarily have the whole context of the broadcast.


The bits that I heard had lots of "well, where is America?!"
I can't understand how the four (ish) people there can still assume there is overwhelming support for their side.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:20 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Apparently there was a live broadcast over the internet last night, the occupiers believed the feds were going to kill them all, and expressed .. I suppose 'bafflement' would be the right word.. that there weren't others joining their cause.


It comes up now and then...people believe an injustice apparent to them is equally frustrating to all.

But, for the vast majority of people, it just doesn't impact their lives. Injustices that affect only a few rarely cause revolt/uprising/outpouring of support. They can be the trigger condition, but the stage has to be set by something that gravely affects people en masse.

Shortage of food? Widespread violence? These can create the conditions for a spark, but without something like that...nothing happens, spark or not.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:23 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:
Dauric wrote:I only heard bits and pieces of the recording on NPR this morning, so I don't necessarily have the whole context of the broadcast.


The bits that I heard had lots of "well, where is America?!"
I can't understand how the four (ish) people there can still assume there is overwhelming support for their side.


Search bubbles. The primary research mechanism in today's internet (ie: Google) tailors results based on your viewing history. Slowly, Google learns your preference and only gives you news that you agree with (people don't click on links they disagree with ya know... and clicks make Google ad revenue. So Google is financially incentivized to only give you news that agrees with your viewpoints). With networks like Facebook, you are connected to like-minded people and avoid those who disagree with you. Blogs, specific sub-reddits, and even forums like this one "XKCD's echochamber" are filled with like-minded people.

When you live within a search bubble, it makes it harder to estimate the general support of a cause. And breaking out of your own search bubble takes far more effort than you'd think. Just spend some time on /r/conspiracy or maybe Conservapedia and you'll get the culture. Those guys similarly look at "more liberal" sites like Wikpedia or Washington Post with disdain.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby morriswalters » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:00 pm UTC

One holdout left and he isn't completely rational. Now he complaining about abortion.

edit
Well it appears to be over, with no more deaths. Small favors.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:25 pm UTC

Guy seemed a bit nutters for sure. But hey, alls well that ends well.

Their view on the right of assembly certainly seems a bit broad, too. Kudos to the State Reps who offered to be human shields. It might not be all that common for people to like/trust politicians, but hey, it got the job done.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby sardia » Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:09 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Guy seemed a bit nutters for sure. But hey, alls well that ends well.

Their view on the right of assembly certainly seems a bit broad, too. Kudos to the State Reps who offered to be human shields. It might not be all that common for people to like/trust politicians, but hey, it got the job done.

Nutters will always jump onto the next hype train, and I'm not sure they need to watch the tone of the protest. The root cause hasn't been resolved though, the BLM is still afraid of running their lands cuz of all the death threats.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby PAstrychef » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:27 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:I'm sure various people here will be terribly disappointed that more of them weren't killed.

No, we were just pointing out that if this group hadn't been comprised of old white guys they likely would have been killed weeks ago, and wondering if their whiteness had anything to do with that.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby morriswalters » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:36 am UTC

Kick em when they're down.
Judge Steven E. Grasty of Harney County, who also serves on the county commission, said the total cost to the county could reach $500,000. Judge Grasty said the county planned to seek reimbursement directly from the occupiers, and was prepared to take legal action.

“If you’re going to come in and undo a little a community, come prepared to pay the cost of it,” he said.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:11 pm UTC

PAstrychef wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:I'm sure various people here will be terribly disappointed that more of them weren't killed.

No, we were just pointing out that if this group hadn't been comprised of old white guys they likely would have been killed weeks ago, and wondering if their whiteness had anything to do with that.


I'm pretty sure that we've figured out it had more to do with 80s era and 90s era policing, rather than race. Waco / Ruby Ridge and all... the police just killed them all. Kill all the white people.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby freezeblade » Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:49 pm UTC

Oregon Occupier Countersues For $666 Billion, Citing 'Works Of The Devil'

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... -the-devil

This is beginning to look more and more like an onion article.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:41 pm UTC

Final moments of LaVoy Finicum have hit Youtube.

From inside the truck, before the shooting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEswP_HSFV4

Aerial helicopter recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gXbyZefXdc

LaVoy Finicum continued to taunt Police till the end. "Go ahead and shoot me". You can clearly see that he reached for something in his belt in the aerial footage right before getting shot (although he initially came out of the vehicle with his hands up)
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby leady » Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:52 pm UTC

Death by stupidity then as usual

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby SDK » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:15 pm UTC

The cell video is a bit unnerving, though. How they continued to shoot at the vehicle for several minutes before demanding the people exit? What were the feds trying to accomplish?
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:25 pm UTC

"well, we carried these bullets all the way out here AND put them in the gun. Taking them out would be just too much work"

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby SDK » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:28 pm UTC

I just can't think of what purpose that would serve, which leaves me wondering whether they were just trying to goad the occupants into retaliating (though I can't imagine why the feds would want to get shot at - maybe they figured they wouldn't get a shot off given how many laser sights you can see flying around there).
Last edited by SDK on Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:30 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:30 pm UTC

Probably a mix of paranoia and contagious fire.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby SDK » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:31 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Probably a mix of paranoia and contagious fire.

Totally would have understood hailing bullets for the first 10 seconds or something. But a few sparse shots per minute for several minutes afterwards? They must have been trying to do something, not just some rookie with a trigger finger.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:33 pm UTC

There's at least SOME level of incompetence there, because even if you're trying to provoke them, if the initial hail of gunfire doesn't, fucking around with plinking random shots probably won't.

Intended provocation or too panicky to stop shooting for MINUTES...either way looks sort of bad.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:37 pm UTC

IIRC, it was Oregon cops who were at that scene with assistance of FBI. So I'd bet on incompetence. (It only takes one dumbass to be incompetent). Its not like local cops come into a situation with armed (but arguably "peaceful") protesters very often.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:41 pm UTC

Honestly, I wouldn't assume that feds are necessarily far more competent.

Plenty of feds involved in the waco mess.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:55 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Honestly, I wouldn't assume that feds are necessarily far more competent.

Plenty of feds involved in the waco mess.


It really depends on local conditions, really. A lot of local cops straight up don't get policing experience, at all. Sometimes a local area is just too peaceful so there won't be much practical on-the-job experience. Or in the case of horribly awful cities ("murder capitals" like LA, Baltimore or whatever), the only cops who end up on those forces are the cops who aren't able to choose a more peaceful / less stressful region (IE: more experienced cops grow out of the city, and move to suburbia). So too much crime causes you to lose experienced members, while too little crime means everyone stays a newbie cause no real work experience ever happens.

In any case, I don't hold Feds in general in high regard. DEA and ATF are much less competent than FBI. (ATF being the specific agency that handled the Waco seige). So its more about the names being dropped here specifically: FBI was involved in this Oregon thingy, but it seems like Oregon cops were still the ones who handled the arrest specifically.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby sardia » Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:07 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Honestly, I wouldn't assume that feds are necessarily far more competent.

Plenty of feds involved in the waco mess.

Weren't the feds seeing this as another Ruby ridge, which they did not want to repeat.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:17 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Honestly, I wouldn't assume that feds are necessarily far more competent.

Plenty of feds involved in the waco mess.


It really depends on local conditions, really. A lot of local cops straight up don't get policing experience, at all. Sometimes a local area is just too peaceful so there won't be much practical on-the-job experience. Or in the case of horribly awful cities ("murder capitals" like LA, Baltimore or whatever), the only cops who end up on those forces are the cops who aren't able to choose a more peaceful / less stressful region (IE: more experienced cops grow out of the city, and move to suburbia). So too much crime causes you to lose experienced members, while too little crime means everyone stays a newbie cause no real work experience ever happens.

In any case, I don't hold Feds in general in high regard. DEA and ATF are much less competent than FBI. (ATF being the specific agency that handled the Waco seige). So its more about the names being dropped here specifically: FBI was involved in this Oregon thingy, but it seems like Oregon cops were still the ones who handled the arrest specifically.


The same thing would apply to the feds as well, would it not?

The FBI did indeed say they wanted this to not be a similar clusterfuck. Which, of course, is what they would say regardless. Cops rarely come out publicly as being explicitly pro-murder, even when their actions are kinda murdery.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Mar 17, 2016 7:00 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Honestly, I wouldn't assume that feds are necessarily far more competent.

Plenty of feds involved in the waco mess.


It really depends on local conditions, really. A lot of local cops straight up don't get policing experience, at all. Sometimes a local area is just too peaceful so there won't be much practical on-the-job experience. Or in the case of horribly awful cities ("murder capitals" like LA, Baltimore or whatever), the only cops who end up on those forces are the cops who aren't able to choose a more peaceful / less stressful region (IE: more experienced cops grow out of the city, and move to suburbia). So too much crime causes you to lose experienced members, while too little crime means everyone stays a newbie cause no real work experience ever happens.

In any case, I don't hold Feds in general in high regard. DEA and ATF are much less competent than FBI. (ATF being the specific agency that handled the Waco seige). So its more about the names being dropped here specifically: FBI was involved in this Oregon thingy, but it seems like Oregon cops were still the ones who handled the arrest specifically.


The same thing would apply to the feds as well, would it not?


Yes, of course. Which is maybe why DEA and ATF don't seem to have as good of a record IMO. FBI though is famous for its strict requirements: college degree (bachelors or higher). A tough boot-camp that has a relatively high failure rate, a whole slew of training that few other police forces have at all. FBI also has a huge budget to afford that level of training and personnel.

You compose an entire force out of college-educated personnel with 3-years experience with a good record, you're gonna get better results. Not that the FBI is impervious to mistakes mind you, but these sorts of things have a compounding effect with regards to the quality of police work that they do. At very least, you get a very different culture with a relatively elite group of officers in the FBI than you do with the ATF or with the DEA.

Basically, not all feds are the same. And the quality of police forces is proportional to their education and training requirements, which is driven by budgetary requirements. In any case, your typical FBI agent will have better education and better experience than your typical local police officer. (With other demanding requirements: like vision, hearing, and other physical entry requirements of the force). And the scope of training doesn't stop upon entry, the FBI Academy is one of the most elite police academies in the US. Its the nature of the national-scale level of budget and training the FBI has (which is unusually high... above and beyond even other federal police agencies)

--------

Your typical cop in the middle of say... Ferguson... won't even get regular sensitivity (aka: anti-racism) training. A lot of local police forces just can't afford even the bare essential training like that (or afford basic equipment like police cameras...). Is it really a surprise when your untrained officers make a ton of mistakes?

Anyway, not to knock on Oregon or anything. I really don't know much about their local police force. But in general, I set my expectations much lower when I hear that local cops are handling a specific case.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby morriswalters » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:52 pm UTC

Most of the shots, including the fatal ones were shot by the State Police. Two more shots were fired by the HRT(Hostrage Rescue team) and those are being investigated since they weren't reported. If the HRT's training isn't sufficient then you probably can't train anyone well enough. Most of the rest of the hits shown on the camera phone were evidently bean bags or gas rounds intended to do whatever they are intended to do.

From the Washington Post on the two bullets not fired by the OSP.
The Office of the Inspector General for the Department of Justice is investigating the incident. The new information provides circumstantial evidence of possible misconduct, officials said, but is not conclusive.
Tyndmyr wrote:Cops rarely come out publicly as being explicitly pro-murder, even when their actions are kinda murdery.
Would you? Seems kind of stupid to do if you committed murder. Finicum was a fool, and as unpopular as that may be to say, it is true. He believed in a lie, the lie that the cops wouldn't shoot. That doesn't remove the FBI from liability for whatever they did if it turns out they covered up firing. But all he had to do at the first stop was shut up and sit still. He had nowhere to go. Tell me you have a gun and are willing to use it and I will shoot you and argue my case in court. I won't wait.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:16 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Most of the shots, including the fatal ones were shot by the State Police. Two more shots were fired by the HRT(Hostrage Rescue team) and those are being investigated since they weren't reported. If the HRT's training isn't sufficient then you probably can't train anyone well enough. Most of the rest of the hits shown on the camera phone were evidently bean bags or gas rounds intended to do whatever they are intended to do.


Less lethal rounds fired are still rounds fired.

"whatever they are intended to do" seems...not sufficiently like an explanation.

Tyndmyr wrote:Cops rarely come out publicly as being explicitly pro-murder, even when their actions are kinda murdery.
Would you? Seems kind of stupid to do if you committed murder. Finicum was a fool, and as unpopular as that may be to say, it is true. He believed in a lie, the lie that the cops wouldn't shoot. That doesn't remove the FBI from liability for whatever they did if it turns out they covered up firing. But all he had to do at the first stop was shut up and sit still. He had nowhere to go. Tell me you have a gun and are willing to use it and I will shoot you and argue my case in court. I won't wait.


Finicum was saying the exact opposite. And the group for which he acted as a spokesman had previously expressed a belief that the police were chomping at the bit to kill them.

Sure, he acted stupidly, but I don't see any reason to believe that they thought the police would never shoot.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby morriswalters » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:20 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:"whatever they are intended to do" seems...not sufficiently like an explanation.
It wasn't an explanation, certainly Law Enforcement hasn't offered one. However since no one else died we can assume they weren't trying to kill them, unless you subscribe to the idea that cars are bullet proof.
Tyndmyr wrote:Sure, he acted stupidly, but I don't see any reason to believe that they thought the police would never shoot.
Right. They left the refuge and were driving a hundred miles, without cover. I don't know about you, but if I had made my brags, I would have stayed put at the refuge rather than to have made myself the main course on an isolated road in the middle of nowhere with no cell service. And either he was suicidal or he believed in fairy tales. This wasn't the middle of the street in Ferguson, with no one going in thinking of shooting. This was a planned take down, with road blocks, nail strips, the HRT, and a helicopter with cameras and a spotlight, and coordination between the FBI and the OSP after a long standoff. He thought this was Arizona all over again I suppose. Only this time there was no group of ranchers in the background with weapons they were prepared to use. I'm sorry Finicum is dead, but I'm not surprised nor do I think that OSP acted improperly. I'll reserve my opinion on what the HRT people were doing till after the investigation.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby sardia » Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:48 am UTC

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/28/us/bu ... efuge.html
Militants found not guilty.
The surprise acquittals of all seven defendants in Federal District Court was a blow to government prosecutors, who had argued that the Bundys and five of their followers used force and threats of violence to occupy the reserve. But the jury appeared swayed by the defendants’ contention that they were protesting government overreach and posed no threat to the public. In a sign of the tension that ran through the trial, Ammon Bundy’s lawyer, Marcus R. Mumford, frustrated that the Bundys were not being released, was restrained by four United States marshals after an outburst.
“I knew that what my husband was doing was right, but I was nervous because the judge was controlling the narrative,” said Ryan Bundy’s wife, Angela Bundy, 39, in a telephone interview from the family ranch in Bunkerville, Nev. “But they saw the truth. I am just so grateful they saw it.”
It was not immediately clear how the not-guilty verdicts would affect the government’s strategy in another case stemming from the Oregon occupation, or a trial in Nevada that the Bundy brothers and their father, Cliven Bundy, face for an armed standoff there.
There's no real details as to why they were all acquitted. At first, I assumed it was civil disobedience, but to not be guilty at all? It could be government misconduct in their handling of the case, or technicalities, or biased jurors. It seems odd to march into a federal building with guns and cause all that ruckus, without a crime being committed.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:39 am UTC

sardia wrote:There's no real details as to why they were all acquitted. At first, I assumed it was civil disobedience, but to not be guilty at all? It could be government misconduct in their handling of the case, or technicalities, or biased jurors. It seems odd to march into a federal building with guns and cause all that ruckus, without a crime being committed.


The jury can acquit for whatever reason they want basically. I'm sure the FBI did their best to present a case, but if the jury were pro-Bundy, then they would have acquitted regardless of the facts presented.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Angua » Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:23 am UTC

I wish we could see what would have happened if none of them were white.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Diadem » Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:58 am UTC

Yeah that acquittal is weird. Perhaps they had no intention to harm the public, as their lawyer argued, but that's not the only thing that matters. A drunk driver has no intention to harm the public either. If I plant a bomb somewhere and then warn them about it, I have no intention to harm the public, but it's still bloody terrorism. They threatened people with guns. "Well, I didn't really mean it, I was just bluffing" should never be an allowed defense.

So what happens next? I assume this will be appealed?


Then on the other hand there are articles like this on Vox that just piss me off. Yeah, racism is a problem, but not every problem is racism. I don't doubt that these guys wouldn't have gotten away with it if they were black, but that is not the problem here. Because 'them not getting away with it' is the correct state of affairs. You can cite research showing that black men get 13.1% longer sentences than white men, and that's terrible, but 13.1% more than zero is still zero. And even during the heights of slavery white men committing crimes [against other white men] where still generally found guilty and appropriately punished.

The problem is that in some areas in the US a significant fraction of the population sees the federal government as illegitimate and is sympathetic towards violence against the [federal] government.
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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby morriswalters » Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:16 am UTC

Diadem wrote:So what happens next? I assume this will be appealed?
If they were acquitted, it's over.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Alexius » Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:28 pm UTC

Angua wrote:I wish we could see what would have happened if none of them were white.


Dennis Banks and Russell Means (both Native American) were acquitted on similar charges after the Wounded Knee incident, which involved actually exchanging gunfire with federal agents.

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Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby Lazar » Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:31 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:So what happens next? I assume this will be appealed?

Nope. The US has a stricter prohibition on double jeopardy than most other countries (see the commentary around the Amanda Knox case), meaning that if a court acquits you at any level, the case is over.
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KnightExemplar
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Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:58 pm UTC

Re: Bundyite militia seizes federal building

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:16 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:
Diadem wrote:So what happens next? I assume this will be appealed?

Nope. The US has a stricter prohibition on double jeopardy than most other countries (see the commentary around the Amanda Knox case), meaning that if a court acquits you at any level, the case is over.


Jury Nullification.

AKA: Fuck the facts, this guy is innocent.

I want to know just how stacked that jury was... it really makes you wonder. Granted, Oregon had a representative cheering the militia on. So this was a risk I guess... those anti-fed militia are more popular than I thought.
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