British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Diadem » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:37 pm UTC

Requiring someone to be a member for a minimum period of time before being allowed to vote in leadership elections is entirely logical, and it's weird that Labour didn't have such a rule on the book yet. Looks like that's going to cost them now.

I guess Labour's best option now is to lose horribly in the next elections and hope they can get rid of Corbyn then.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Echo244 » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:49 pm UTC

That was the PLP's plan ever since he got elected. They had it all lined up for the council elections, but they turned out to be... down from last time slightly but... not bad considering that last time had been very much a high point. Not quite the rout they needed to point to. Then the referendum came along and... I think someone panicked about a potentially looming GE and pushed the ditch-Corbyn-now button without making sure it would work first.

The problem that they've caused for themselves, however, is that pushing it too early causes a lot of other side-effects. There's already a lot of a push back against a number of MPs (note Angela Eagle here) and plans for deselection, because of this attempt to oust Corbyn. Some of the attempts to control that have become... frankly absurd, to the point of banning eye-rolling at meetings and the like. I would expect that, wherever possible, all those pushing for deselecting MPs (Momentum et al) will also be pushing for replacing those making decisions within the Labour Party that haven't been supporting the leader, or have been trying to stop meetings, ban eye-rolling etc. etc.

So a post-next-election Labour could look very different to current Labour.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:06 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Requiring someone to be a member for a minimum period of time before being allowed to vote in leadership elections is entirely logical

How so?

Sure, it'd be suspect to allow votes from people who joined after the candidates had been announced, because then you could get some tactical voting, but I fail to see the value in disallowing voting from people who join before the leadership contest has even been announced. They are plainly just normal supporters. My research suggests the Tory party have no equivalent six month rule for their membership.

(Bear in mind, there's already a restriction on people voting who previously belonged to other parties, which reduces skulduggery. The evidence points to the new members being genuine Corbyn supporters rather than troublemakers, and so their votes should be counted.)

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:22 pm UTC

(slightly ninjaed)

Diadem wrote:Requiring someone to be a member for a minimum period of time before being allowed to vote in leadership elections is entirely logical, and it's weird that Labour didn't have such a rule on the book yet. Looks like that's going to cost them now.
There was a deadline for memberships prior to the June 2015 leadership election, I definitely recall. Maybe it can be argued that it should have been prior to the resignation of Milliband (in May), if you wanted to prevent bandwagon-jumping upon an opportunistic chance for original non-members to get a foot in the door of the process, but it was so.

For this leadership contest, members were being excluded who joined long before the need for a contest became obvious. I can't work out what rule allowed that which was not available for use in the prior example. Maybe there was less sense/realisation of desperation at that time by those who perceive themselves as in the minority opinion and yet obviously more correct than their majority opponents...

I guess Labour's best option now is to lose horribly in the next elections and hope they can get rid of Corbyn then.
The next wholesale elections (unless the Tories cave in, or something massive happens, which I'm betting that they'll do all they can to avoid) will be 2020. Perhaps a by-election might happen in a suitablr constituemcy, where "Labour (PLP)" and "Labour (Membership)" can fight against each other to get an idea of the metal of each others' support ahead of such time (but a single locale is unlikely to be accepted as representative of national feelings by all those disadvantaged).

IMO, the Labour Party would suffer from Corbyn being outed in a putsch, I think, and Corbyn has a perfect right to continue without actually resigning (in the current circumstances, I can't see it being something he would consider beneficial to his take on the Labour movement) so long as he has support of the membership. It's the MPs that are obviously rocking the boat, inarguably, regardless of whether the captain can be perceived by one or other commentator as sailing it on the wrong course.

'Best' solution, perhaps, is for the MPs to jump into to PLP lifeboat, force multiple by-elections against new party-selected Labourites, risk being sidelined (and diluting both Labour votes behind some lower-rated party) and just accepting that the Real Labour and the Provisional Labour movements are on completely different tacks, then get everything back together (defections to Liberals? UKIP, even, as an ourside chance?) for a decent Opposition for the rest of the parliament (2020, or as Brexit pressures force the now more eager Tory hierarchy to break with their recently established 5-year cycle). Who knows, "SNP in England" candidates might even get organised and sufficient boost to become Opposition or the ruling party... Well, that one's a longshot, but I can think of a number of potential supporters... ;)

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:12 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:For this leadership contest, members were being excluded who joined long before the need for a contest became obvious. I can't work out what rule allowed that which was not available for use in the prior example.

There was no rule. The NEC waited until Corbyn had left the room to greet some supporters and then voted the new rule in.

Presumably they went for as long a retroactive ban as they thought they could get away with, to try to disenfranchise as many of the new JC supporters as they could.

Such Machiavellian shenanigans are unlikely to occur again (at least against JC) because...

Jeremy Corbyn has consolidated his grip on the Labour party after ... his supporters swept the board in elections to the party’s ruling National Executive Committee.

After another day of twists and turns in the fierce battle for the future of the party, some of Corbyn’s critics among Labour MPs were privately saying his position now appeared unassailable.

...

But as Corbyn’s backers, including shadow chancellor John McDonnell, condemned the plans for an appeal, it emerged that they will soon have decisive control of the NEC, after party members elected all six candidates on a pro-Corbyn slate.

Results of the NEC elections showed that the six members elected to represent constituency Labour parties were Corbyn backers, while his critics, including current member Johanna Baxter, who recently complained about bullying in the party, and the comedian Eddie Izzard lost out.

The new NEC members will take up their seats after September’s annual party conference. Labour MPs critical of Corbyn suggested last night that combined with the high court judgment, the triumph of the pro-Corbyn slate suggested he had significantly tightened his grip on the leadership. “This is very, very, very bad news,” said one.


link

---

Update: Unsurprisingly the PLP are going to appeal the judgement, since it's really the only play they have left:

Labour is challenging a High Court ruling giving recent members a vote in its leadership contest, with the appeal hearing expected on Thursday.

The party lost a legal challenge to its rules banning anyone who joined as a member after 12 January from taking part unless they paid an extra £25.

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell said Labour's appeal was "disappointing".

The party said it would defend the right of its governing NEC "to uphold the rule book".

Mr Corbyn, speaking in Bristol, where he is attending a campaign rally, said: "The judge seemed very clear that his decision was all members of the party should have a right to vote in the leadership contest. Surely that has to be the right decision."

Mr McDonnell, who is running Mr Corbyn's re-election campaign, claimed the decision to appeal had been taken by a "small clique" that opposed the Labour leader and warned it could cost the party "hundreds of thousands of pounds".

It was "an attack on the basic democratic rights of members in our party", he said.

Owen Smith said it was up to the NEC to decide whether to appeal and it was not right for Mr McDonnell, or himself, to "interfere" in its decisions.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Echo244 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:28 am UTC

This is the thing. When the only thing you have left to play is excluding people from the ballot... maybe it's time to build bridges with the other side rather than doubling down.

One or two things I've heard - mostly despair from opponents of Corbyn, and a suggestion from Smith that the contest should be extended so that these new members can "get to know" him and Corbyn - make me think that this is, barring exceptional circumstances, all over bar the recriminations.

Which will be... well, I hope for peace to break out but I'm more expecting equal-and-opposite reactions - mass deselections, pushing out from positions of power not only anyone involved in the plot against Corbyn, but also anyone who wasn't solidly, openly backing him...

I really hope we see a wave of people peeling away from the never-Corbyn-he's-destroying-the-party-we-must-get-rid-of-him-at-any-cost camp. There needs to be an olive branch waved from that quarter to begin things, really. With Corbyn's side having the likely majority as well as added (ha!) momentum from these court decisions, and after all the things that have gone on since Corbyn won the leadership, it's going to be difficult to argue that that side must be gracious in victory.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:02 am UTC

The problem is there is a great deal of anger in the rank-and-file of the Labour party going back a generation. Reaction to Blair's time in office ranged from disappointment to a feeling of genuine betrayal.

The Blair government made the tactical decision that you aim your policies to grab the middle ground because your core supporters are hardly going to vote for the opposition. Politically astute, but it sowed the seeds of the anger we see today. And, actually, it's not all that different to the Tory party trying for years to suppress the right-wing's annoyance over Europe and then that blowing up also.

The center ground is where you win elections, but you ignore the radical wing of your party at your peril.

The grass roots have decided that only a genuinely left wing government has a chance of fixing the deep inequalities and injustices that have accumulated in society over the last three decades - that a Tory-lite government is no more going to fix things than the Tories themselves would, so there's kinda nothing to lose by going for broke.

My prediction: The current crop of Labour MPs is going to get deselected by their constituencies, Labour will lose 150 seats at the next election (and I say that with some sadness cos I actually like a lot of JC's policies, though he also has some idiotic ones), and something will rise to fill the void on the center-left - hopefully the LibDems.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Echo244 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:48 am UTC

elasto wrote:The grass roots have decided that only a genuinely left wing government has a chance of fixing the deep inequalities and injustices that have accumulated in society over the last three decades - that a Tory-lite government is no more going to fix things than the Tories themselves would, so there's kinda nothing to lose by going for broke.


It's not exactly going for broke. There's a step before that. It's getting a Labour Party that represents them and their views. This is what the whole fuss is about. The PLP crowd are concerned with step 2, getting in to government, and have made some concessions towards the other side, while fighting tooth and nail for an "electable" leader, who will pivot and try to appeal to the floating voters come election time, and be in power to effect whatever change they feel they can squeeze through. The grass roots are concerned with step 1, they want a leader who represents them and their views, first, and *then* will they address the challenge of getting in to office.

Despite PLP concessions - Eagle and Smith both being apparent left-wingers, many policy offers shifting to the left etc. - there's a widespread feeling that ditching Corbyn means back to "business as usual" and throwing away any policy that doesn't go down well with the Daily Mail come election time. This is why trying to kick him out has gone down so very, very badly.

I very much hope that once this is all over, a load of the rebels will accept the loss of step 1 and work, properly, towards step 2. But there are definitely going to be some who either leave, get pushed out, or carry on trying to resist change from within.

elasto wrote:My prediction: The current crop of Labour MPs is going to get deselected by their constituencies, Labour will lose 150 seats at the next election (and I say that with some sadness cos I actually like a lot of JC's policies, though he also has some idiotic ones), and something will rise to fill the void on the center-left - hopefully the LibDems.


Hmmmm. I think 150 seats is over-egging things, especially after wipeout in Scotland. The Lib Dems will probably pick up some disenchanted Labour voters, though probably more party donors, MPs crossing the floor etc. than significant numbers of members. Labour will probably end up down some at the next election because of all this, though. And the Lib Dems will no doubt be more interested in pulling voters back off the Tories than picking up ex-Labour voters.

The Greens are probably in for a kicking, though. Might hold on to their MP but their share of the vote is going to fall.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:49 pm UTC

To Echo (and anyone else):

As someone clearly engaged with UK politics, if you haven't already, you should check out Matt Forde's podcasts. He does hour long interviews with politicians in a light-hearted way but without pulling any punches.

In an age when most politicians are limited to sound-bites, it's really fascinating to dig deeper into the character and beliefs of some of these guys.

He interviews people across the whole political spectrum, from George Galloway to Tommy Robinson (founder of the EDL). He even interviewed Blair - though personally I found that one of the least interesting due to how slick he is. You never really break through the persona.

(Forde also does about twenty minutes of political standup at the start, but personally I just skip right through that as I find his standup persona highly irritating! But each to his own :D )

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Echo244 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:14 pm UTC

Oooooh, interesting. Not sure I can find much time for them, but when I do find time for something a bit long-form it sounds like a good candidate. And one of my friends does a load of driving across northern England and Scotland, and is always looking out for good podcasts. ;-D
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:03 pm UTC

Isn't he starting a TV show soon that's along similar lines?

EDIT: This is what I was talking about: https://www.comedy.co.uk/tv/news/2169/u ... att_forde/

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:47 pm UTC

Bit worried the tv show has the balance the wrong way round for my taste: It reads more like a political comedy/satire show that includes some interviews. I really like how an hour long (and totally unedited) interview allows the time and space to really delve deep.

But thanks for the pointer!

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:56 pm UTC

I know what you mean. I watch Richard Herring's Leicester Square Theatre Podcast (it's on youtube, I've been to many of the recordings) where he interviews mostly comedians for an hour or more, and you get some really interesting insights into the interviewee. In a way you don't get with anything on TV anymore, it's all slick, tightly edited, short joke-packed snippets all the time. Example: Room 101 since Frank Skinner took over, in contrast to the earlier incarnations.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:06 pm UTC

Wow. Couldn't agree more on both counts.

But I was down at the skate park the other day and I overheard the cool kids calling it RHLSTP. Dunno if it will catch on

---

Another podcast with long interviews is The Comedian's Comedian - eg. his interview with Richard Herring is over 2 hours. They rarely dip under 90 minutes, so they are invariably interesting.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:58 pm UTC

Yeah I really like those. I like how they focus on discussing the technical aspects of comedy and go into a lot of detail about the process. And he asks pretty deep questions (like "are you happy?") and really gets to the heart of what makes the comedian tick. Apart from when he interviewed Stewart Francis, that was painful.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Echo244 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:38 am UTC

More shenanigans:

GMB union backs Owen Smith for Labour leader - note the question they asked:

Speaking to BBC News, Mr Roache (GMB general secretary) said the question put to members had been "very carefully couched", and asked who they thought was the best candidate to serve as prime minister.


Meanwhile Labour's appeal on leadership vote to be heard, but it's being pushed endlessly as a high stakes thing...

There has been speculation that Labour's general secretary Iain McNicol could face being ousted if the party loses.

A senior Labour source said: "If Labour loses the appeal, the position of Iain McNicol becomes untenable.

"Having spent nearly a quarter of a million pounds on this legal case and staking his professional reputation on the outcome, if he loses today then he simply can't stay in post."
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Lazar » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:09 pm UTC

Exit the vampires' castle.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:11 pm UTC


Haha! Some genuinely amusing replies there :D

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby kingofdreams » Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:30 pm UTC

i'd first assumed it was a sarcastic retort to whatever officiant lauded the eu as the winner in the medals table. my enduring naivete may be my best feature
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby SlyReaper » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:27 pm UTC

kingofdreams wrote:i'd first assumed it was a sarcastic retort to whatever officiant lauded the eu as the winner in the medals table. my enduring naivete may be my best feature

Was it not?
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Lazar » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:33 pm UTC

Exit the vampires' castle.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Sep 06, 2016 11:12 pm UTC

I find it more amusing that it looks like he's being labelled as one of Vaz's 'hired helpers'.

(But I still find it troubling that by saying <Insert Figure Of Hate Here> at one time supported <Insert Viewpoint Here> at one time you're then instantly taken as saying that <IVH> and people who are associated with <IVH> (but may or may not even think it themselves) are as bad as <IFOHH>. i.e. If I point out that the Godwinated one was once trying to make a living as a painter, I'm obviously viciously and steadfastly opposed to any funding at all going to the National Gallery on the grounds of their clear support of Fascism... There's actually more to Livingstone's comments than that, anyway, but right now it's difficult to get past the rabidly anti-antisemetic voices that seem to just want to shout and point and drown out the perceived offender to try to shut down any possibility of argument (counter to their own), which probably suits the blue labourites just fine as they see the possibility of weakening the deep-red labourites, etc...)

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Wed Sep 07, 2016 10:44 am UTC

Yes. I find it tiresome too.

So far as I can tell, Livingstone is saying factually accurate things; However, it's political idiocy to say and then repeat things that are so easy to misinterpret (or misrepresent) in an incendiary fashion.

I wish it were not so, and so does he apparently, but that's the world we live in.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby HES » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:24 pm UTC

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Diadem » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:48 pm UTC

I almost feel sorry for the guy. He's 49 and his political career is over. Normally a guy like him would be sent off to some nice cushy job in Brussels, but in his case I suspect he may not be the most welcome there.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:03 pm UTC

Can't see him being enobled, either. International talk circuits, like Blair? (Not sure he 'qualifies' as UN Ambassador/whatever, in any capacity, so he might have more time to talk wirh less time needed to sort out the Middle East, right?)

He must have had a plan for four years' time, though... Wonder if it still applies?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:19 pm UTC

I can't see him being asked for talks like Blair. Blair might have had... some dirt on his hands when he left office, but he's always had arguments for the actions he took and managed to leave office with his head held high. Cameron looked at what he'd done, said "oops" and sprinted out of the building in a cloud of dust heading for the horizon. He left politics with his head hung in shame. Likewise I don't see him becoming a Lord for much the same reasons.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Angua » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:20 pm UTC

I love how he's trying to spin it as 'I'm just such a huge persona in politics that May can't coexist without being over-shadowed by my greatness.'
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby charliepanayi » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:25 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:I almost feel sorry for the guy. He's 49 and his political career is over. Normally a guy like him would be sent off to some nice cushy job in Brussels, but in his case I suspect he may not be the most welcome there.


I definitely don't feel sorry for him. Was stupid enough to call a referendum that should never have happened (even if he'd won, it would not have stopped anything) and then ran off from the mess he made, safe in the knowledge that a useless media and a self-destructive opposition party would blame Jeremy Corbyn for the referendum defeat instead.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Zamfir » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:12 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:I can't see him being asked for talks like Blair. Blair might have had... some dirt on his hands when he left office, but he's always had arguments for the actions he took and managed to leave office with his head held high.

People don't pay former politicians for 'talks' or 'consultancy' because they looked nice in office. They pay the poliicians because they got friendly treatment when the politicians were in power, and the payers want to encourage future office holders to continue that friendly treatment. People paid Blair as a message to Cameron: be nice like Blair was and we'll be nice to you like we were to Blair.

Perhaps Cameron ignored those messages, because he's above that kind of mutual back scratching. Doesn't pass the laugh test, does it?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:44 pm UTC

Wasn't thinking about it like that. Is there evidence Blair had that arrangement? Not saying it's not depressingly plausible.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Echo244 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:41 pm UTC

Cameron is a millionaire and doesn't need the income. Blair's wealth grew due to investments during his time in office but then only truly blossomed post-office thanks to lucrative sinecure posts from people who had conveniently benefitted from his policies.

Oh, I'm sure someone will try to offer him a job, make him look like he's doing something good. But I really think he's going to crawl off into obscurity.

I mean, the best suggestion from Channel 4 News was that he was going to devote more of his time to the Big Society idea. Which is an entirely different digression of embarrassing ideas that only go to show how disconnected he is from public life and normal society.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:49 pm UTC

Echo244 wrote:I mean, the best suggestion from Channel 4 News was that he was going to devote more of his time to the Big Society idea.
Any normal politicianmwould be spending more time wirh their family, but they've probably been left, forgotten, in one or more pubs.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby HES » Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:56 pm UTC

How many times is Farage going to have to quit before it sticks?
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Mutex
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:04 pm UTC

All this talk about the possibility of hard Brexit is kinda disturbing. We all knew the EU wouldn't allow access to the single market without free movement of people (since that's one of the four freedoms). So, I assumed at some point the Brexit negotiators would sigh and admit they're not going to be able to restrict migration from the EU.

Nope, apparently Fox would happily cause enormous job losses in order to slightly reduce migrant numbers. At least there'll be fewer Romanians taking our jobs that don't exist anymore!

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CorruptUser
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:40 pm UTC

I was under the impression that it was Muslims, not Romanians, that was the tipping point for the Brexiters.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:53 pm UTC

Which is nonsensical, given that "the muslims" aren't the ones that EU free movement rules control/don't control.

(And I keep hearing things like "The Brexit vote clearly shows that...", ascribing the main reason to be regarding various (mutually exclusive) single issues, like this, or EU laws1 or largely unelected rulers (*cough*May*cough*) or Make Britain Geeat Again, Like When We Had The Empire (which we lost well before we joined the EU...). Also, 38% of potential voters voting Leave, 35% voting Remain and 27% not expressing an official preference either was hardly 'clear'.)

1 All of which are now going to be absorbed into British Law anyway until and unless someone bothers to remove them again...

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:57 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I was under the impression that it was Muslims, not Romanians, that was the tipping point for the Brexiters.


Not really. Well, the whole Syrian refugee crisis didn't help, but concern about large amounts of Eastern European immigration was a bigger issue economically.

There was basically a variety of issues and a few misconceptions (to put it charitably) that lead to the exit vote. EU migration (and non-EU, weirdly), the amount of money we send to the EU (always ignoring the money we get back, and *definitely* ignoring the boost to our economy being a member provided), sovereignty (because having no vote in issues that affect us is an improvement apparently), and also seeing pro-EU people as all being members of an elite ruling class, just as all Londoners live in ivory towers clinking champagne glasses and laughing about those poor, thick northerners, and so voting leave was a poke in the face for all the imaginary people you despise.

Soupspoon wrote:Which is nonsensical, given that "the muslims" aren't the ones that EU free movement rules control/don't control.

(And I keep hearing things like "The Brexit vote clearly shows that...", ascribing the main reason to be regarding various (mutually exclusive) single issues, like this, or EU laws1 or largely unelected rulers (*cough*May*cough*) or Make Britain Geeat Again, Like When We Had The Empire (which we lost well before we joined the EU...). Also, 38% of potential voters voting Leave, 35% voting Remain and 27% not expressing an official preference either was hardly 'clear'.)

1 All of which are now going to be absorbed into British Law anyway until and unless someone bothers to remove them again...


Oh god yes, everyone is pushing their own narrative onto the leave vote. Every day I see a brexit voter who apparently believes that every brexit voter voted for exactly the same reason as them. There was a survey on why leave voters voted the way they did, "taking back sovereignty" was the biggest reason, immigration was significantly less common. Yet apparently the leave vote showed an overwhelming support for reducing EU immigration, or whatever.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby HES » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:04 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:"taking back sovereignty" was the biggest reason

And how many of those people understand what that phrase actually means?
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:36 pm UTC

When it came to all the comments on the BBC website, it was all people bitching about how they would walk down London and wouldn't understand what was said. Rivers of blood and dogwhistles galore. But while a lot of it was against the Polish and other Eastern Europeans, the bulk was against the Muslims.


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