British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

Mutex
Posts: 1341
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:32 pm UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:31 pm UTC

The first time people didn't want to discuss it because it didn't really relate to the discussion that much and seem like a deliberate derailing. Because the current situation in the US isn't *any* of the proposed options. So it was like, "any really - they're all better".

User avatar
orthogon
Posts: 2935
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 7:52 am UTC
Location: The Airy 1830 ellipsoid

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby orthogon » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:13 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
orthogon wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:"Will of the People", etc, etc, yada yada yada… Complete mess.
Exactly. It's a horrible train-wreck of a political situation.
It's the kind of mess I was exploring with my "green/yellow, high/low" scenario here and here. In general though, people didn't want to discuss it without knowing which partisan side was which.

Jose

I suppose the normal response would be a compromise, so if the high/low is a continuous variable, you go for 52% of the way between low and high. You might say that the UK can't be 48% in and 52% out of the EU, but in a manner of speaking we already were about 60% in and 40% out (in the single market and customs union but not in Schengen or the Euro). And it's as likely as not that we'll end up trying to negotiate to be 48% in the EU (whatever that means specifically) after the transition period. (Whether we can achieve that is another question).

Democracy, at its best, is about trying to represent the people overall, more than it's about treating elections and referendums as win/lose things. It's built into the parliamentary setup, because a narrow General Election victory forces the government to try to placate the full range of views. Unfortunately, referendums don't automatically force compromise - quite the opposite in this case, in fact - which is one reason why we didn't use to have them and probably shouldn't have started.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3483
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:00 pm UTC

So, I reckon we're probably less likely to abandon British Summer Time, because if we're perverse enough to split from Europe we're perverse enough to not do the same thing as Europe off our own back.

Also having a bit of schadenfreude ('scuse my Deutsch) about British fishermen getting 'asked' not to fish in non-British waters, even if they're not the exact same ones who voted Brexit to stop non-British fishing of home waters. No, not exactly equivalent, being (the edge of) international waters, but the difference in official restrictions shows that we're not the ones universally disadvantaged.

User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 1806
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Sableagle » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:01 pm UTC

Saw a headline recently that our own tousled blond arsehole has claimed the Brexit negotiations are being "fixed" by the EU to be advantageous to nations other than the UK.

People from other countries want trade deals with the UK that aren't entirely in the UK's favour and a total disaster for all other countries involved.

No SHIT, Boris.

Current and recent Reuters articles for the subject:



In the crowded kitchen in Beaconsfield — an affluent commuter town outside London and Conservative stronghold — there was angry talk about how Prime Minister Theresa May had sold short Leavers’ dreams of making a clean break with the EU and reclaiming Britain’s sovereignty.

“She has misled the country by giving the impression that we are leaving when we are not,” Roger Kendrick, an investor in small businesses, told Reuters at the meeting, a fundraiser for the Campaign for Conservative Democracy.


Britons would choose to stay in the European Union if given the option, according to an opinion poll on Wednesday that showed a six-point swing away from Brexit and the highest support for EU membership in such a survey since the 2016 referendum.

Britain is due to leave the EU on March 29, 2019 but has yet to secure an exit agreement to define future relations with Brussels and manage the economic impact of ending over four decades of integration with the world’s largest trading bloc.

The government has ruled out holding a second referendum, and the opposition Labour Party is not advocating one either.


Well, it's turning into a clusterfuck. Man, I get tired of being right about that so often.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

SuicideJunkie
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:40 pm UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby SuicideJunkie » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:07 pm UTC

Why not have another referendum or three until you can call off the whole thing?
That's how it worked in the other direction, right?

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11206
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:17 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:Saw a headline recently that our own tousled blond arsehole has claimed the Brexit negotiations are being "fixed" by the EU to be advantageous to nations other than the UK.

People from other countries want trade deals with the UK that aren't entirely in the UK's favour and a total disaster for all other countries involved.

No SHIT, Boris.


I'm not sure what else could really be expected? Of course other countries seek advantage in trade deals. And if you are bailing on the EU, they don't have much motivation to make sure you get what you want out of it.

This is like...international politics 101. Disappointing.

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3483
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:06 pm UTC

Like Trump. He'd never want to make a deal with us that he cannot say (or claim) is not better for the US. What chance for us, then? That's why we're trying to get chummy with African states, et al?

And everyone who is pro-Brexit (of whatever degree, whether hard, soft, squashy or whatever) is 'confident' that a better deal can he made even with our (current, not future) European neighbours, forgetting that we're more likely to get a <1/28th influence upon deals in Europe than anywhere near a 50% influence on future UK/EU deal-making.

Still, people are 'confident' that given <insert circumstances here, e.g. Boris succeeding May> that "everyone that voted Brexit will get the Brexit they voted for". What? Every single nigglingly different (and sometimes mutually exclusive) mythical voted-for Brexit? Including the protest-voters who just wanted no Ever Greater Union? And then there's all those (a majority) who didn't vote for Brexit. Will they get the Brexit they want (assuming they're forced to accept a Brexit and discard their Bremaining or Brapathetic stances)?

I still don't like this damnfool thing. Think of all the other useful things that could be being done right now¹ if the ill-defined (if not outright undefined) Brexit preparations weren't being undergone. Far too late.

(Vote Leave, etc, just wore a coat-of-many-colours, remember. They told those who wanted out of seamless trade deals that they'd be out of those, but told those that just wanted out of open borders for people (as if we were in Shengen, which we weren't) that it would be able to retain trading with the EC. They also labelled Remain's arguments as Project Fear while creating their own equivalent Project Fear that "Remain" would inevitably lead to the dreaded Euro-Superstate. They said that the issue of Northern Ireland would be simple to solve (without consistency about how it would be) and because they were free to offer Pie In The Sky of many different fillings they, like the Devil, had all the best songs. And still they only just scraped a 'win', not really worthy of the title.)


I'm tired of it all. Someone wake me when it's all over. After the giant meteorite, perhaps.

¹ Unless you prefer to believe that what they're having to do now is less damaging than all the the other damnfool things they could have cooked up in other circumstances, I suppose.

elasto
Posts: 3516
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:14 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I'm not sure what else could really be expected? Of course other countries seek advantage in trade deals. And if you are bailing on the EU, they don't have much motivation to make sure you get what you want out of it.

Crazy isn't it.

And when the EU is portrayed as playing hard-ball with the negotiations, some jump on that pronouncing 'See? These guys totally don't have our backs! Proof that we are better off out than in!' - somehow totally forgetting that, when we were inside, those same people were fighting hard on our behalf during trade negotiations with the rest of the world...

It's very 'glass half full' to view being a member of the EU as 'losing some of our sovereignty' rather than gaining some sovereignty over everyone else in the EU... We had one of the loudest voices in it, and got our way far more often than we should have, proportionately :/

And we went and threw it all away to prevent 'a wave of Turkish EU immigrants flooding through our borders' or something...

User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 1806
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Sableagle » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:40 pm UTC

"So that the French can't force us to take any more Pakis in," according to someone I had the misfortune to know.

Dunlending tribesmen who fought for Saruman, trapped in the rubble after the collapse of Isengard? I'll save them.
That guy, though? I'd leave him to drown. At some of the others, I'd throw rocks.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 9992
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:46 am UTC

Was this before or after the sex trafficking scandals?

elasto
Posts: 3516
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:43 am UTC

The vote for Brexit was highest in the places with the lowest influx of immigrants. The places with large numbers of new immigrants tended to also have high levels of support for Remain.

In other words it's all based on fear of difference and of the unknown, which is why politicians and the media bear a great deal of culpability for the current mess.

In reference to your example, statistics show that, overall, immigrants commit crimes at lower rates than the native-born. Pointing that out doesn't sell newspapers though.

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3483
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:02 pm UTC

Ah, those sex 'trafficking' scandals. I was confused by that reference, and nearly made a bad taste joke without knowing what was meant. I was imagining the prior post was about immigrants, either as traffickers or trafficked. Not the overwhelmingly British-born people (maybe of immigrant parentage, or grandparantage, who would likely be horrified) who just preyed upon young people of all hues, but less¹ upon their own ethnicities because parents of their ethnicity are more smotheringly protective so they just had more opportunity² to cross the divide looking for victims.


¹ Not entirely! But the same cultural taboos has kept those victims silenced/punished by their own communities and off the front page still.
² Without blaming the parents of the others, just the phrase "low hanging fruit" is awkwardly apt.

User avatar
orthogon
Posts: 2935
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 7:52 am UTC
Location: The Airy 1830 ellipsoid

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby orthogon » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:43 pm UTC

Well ... yes one of my colleagues said he was going to vote Leave because he didn't like it that Southall station had a sign in Bengali. I didn't realise Bangladesh was even a candidate for EU membership, but then reporting of EU matters hasn't been all it could be.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

Mutex
Posts: 1341
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:32 pm UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:05 pm UTC

And yet a part of the endlessly repeated Leave rhetoric was that Remainers are all living in their ivory towers, blissfully unaware of the effect immigration is having on the poor, hard working, ordinary, honest people of Britain (aka Leave voters).

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 9992
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:06 pm UTC

The sex abuse gangs weren't shocking because Pakistani Muslims were running sex rings; regular ol' English do that too. What was shocking wasn't even the scale of the gangs, or that they happened in multiple cities with the same MO. What was shocking was that the local councils knew about the gangs for decades and had covered them up; they wouldn't have gotten so big if the councils had been doing their job in the first place. Why the cover ups? No one is really sure, but there are multiple possible reasons.

In order of severity:

1) The councils were involved, either through bribery or were johns themselves
2) The councils had an utter hatred for the working classes and just didn't care
3) The councils were afraid of the backlash against the Pakistani community and so they suppressed it
4) Labour did not want to piss off the Pakistani community and needed their votes

Whether or not all the reasons are true, it has at this point become a rallying cry for the various xenophobic nationalists (e.g., Tommy Robinson). And yeah, this is going to push a lot of people to vote "Leave" as a protest.

elasto
Posts: 3516
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:21 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:What was shocking was that the local councils knew about the gangs for decades and had covered them up

Have a citation for that?

Police investigations and judicial sentencing are a matter of public record by the way, so that's not something councils have any ability to 'cover up' - unless you're implying generations of politicians from every political party conspired to tie the hands of the police - which, again, they have no direct ability to do, what with the police having operational independence from politicians in the UK.


elasto
Posts: 3516
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:09 pm UTC

Ah, I see. I didn't know it went back so far.

Reading more into it, the fault seems to lie squarely with the police. If people are supplying drugs and engaging in sex with underage children it seems like it should be a slam-dunk conviction, and I am at a loss as to why that did not occur.

And don't tell me the police didn't know it was happening because social services covered it up; There would have been mountains of evidence right out in the open.

In order of severity:

1) The councils were involved, either through bribery or were johns themselves
2) The councils had an utter hatred for the working classes and just didn't care
3) The councils were afraid of the backlash against the Pakistani community and so they suppressed it
4) Labour did not want to piss off the Pakistani community and needed their votes

None of those reasons explain why the police didn't act. The councils don't run the police and the police aren't particularly beholden to the Labour party.

And if people are stupid enough to believe that keeping out immigrants is the solution when these criminals were born in the UK then more fool them.

(Social services are a cluster-f*ck in every country as far as I can make out, with a really skewed set of priorities. This particular department was more f*cked up than most though, absolutely.)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 9992
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:13 pm UTC

No, the councils and social services were covering it up too. Not just the police. Here's an article from Forbes as to why they were covering it up, or the TL;DR version, "Politikal Kurectniss Gonne Madd!" Not sure if that's the actual case, but it is the narrative being pushed by a combination of xenophobes, anti-muslims, and Putin.

As for why I brought it up, I'm wondering if Sable was talking to that bloke before or after the Rotherham story broke.

elasto
Posts: 3516
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:23 pm UTC

I'm saying that if the police had done their job there would have been nothing to cover up. Don't tell me that no parent ever went to the police saying that their child had been sold drugs or had sex. The police would (or should) have had much more information than social services ever did, meaning any cover up there was irrelevant.

(Remember, social services are not the police. Yes they have an obligation to report crimes to the police just as we all do, but, as I say, they have a f*cked up set of priorities; Always have had, always will have so far as I can tell.)

I'm not sure how much the council would have really known. They don't get involved in the day-to-day operations of social services and have nothing to do with the police.

Edit:

Here's an article from Forbes as to why they were covering it up


A fourteen-year old girl is taken into care by the social services unit of the town where she lives, because her parents are drug-addicted, and she has been neglected and is not turning up in school. She is one of many, for that is the way in Britain today. And local government entities—Councils—can be ordered by the courts to stand in for parents of neglected children. The Council places the girl in a home, where she is kept with others under supervision from the social services department. The home is regularly visited by young men who try to entice the girls into their cars, so as to give them drugs and alcohol, and then coerce them into sex.

Meanwhile she must accept weekly abuse, in return for drugs and alcohol. Soon she finds herself being taken to other towns in the area, and hired out for sexual purposes to other men. She is distraught and depressed, and at the point when she can stand it no longer, she goes to the police. She can only stutter a few words, and cannot bring herself to accuse anyone in particular. Her complaint is dismissed on the grounds that any sex involved must have been consensual.

See, that makes no sense to me. So far as I know a fourteen-year old cannot legally consent to sex with anyone. If that's true then the police broke the law.

(On a side-note, this reinforces to me yet again that drugs should be decriminalised and prescribed. If this girl never would have got into strangers cars and engaged in sex with them but for being a drug addict, once again society has caused misery through this senseless 'war on drugs'. Yet immigrants are the big boogie man go figure...)
Last edited by elasto on Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:34 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 9992
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:29 pm UTC

Kind of a moot point as to whether the blame for the cover up lies with the council/socialservices/police 33/33/33 or 25/25/50 or 20/10/70. Someone in government fucked up, but more importantly, it's led to a massive backlash against immigrants in general. And Xenophobia is not a precision weapon, so any hostilities against the Pakistani community is going to result in increased hostility towards Turks, Poles, Jews, Hindus, etc etc, and against any multinational organizations that would make it easier for non-citizens to immigrate, i.e., the EU. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if, had the gangs been taken down earlier (or not exposed until even later), the Brexit referendum wouldn't have passed.

elasto
Posts: 3516
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:41 pm UTC

Kind of a moot point as to whether the blame for the cover up lies with the council/socialservices/police 33/33/33 or 25/25/50 or 20/10/70.


I disagree. The failure of the police meant that whether or not social services covered anything up these people were never going to be stopped. If you have the girls themselves going to the police saying they've been raped and the police ignore it, well, everything else is pretty much irrelevant.

Social services are always going to be conflicted about what to do when an addict under their care willingly has sex in exchange for drugs. The police should not have any conflict about what to do under those circumstances.

(We are posting quickly so please note I edited my previous reply also.)

Anyhow, as I say, given that these were not immigrant criminals but UK born this was a stupid reason for Leavers to latch on to. Even if 'p0litical correctness' has gone too far that's still not something to blame innocent immigrants over.

I mean... Imagine if for some reason police were failing to investigate crimes committed by red-heads, and the reaction of the public was to vote to block red-heads to come into the country and to attempt to kick out all red-heads currently here... Talk about missing the point! And yet this misdirection happens time and time again: Immigrants get blamed for filling up school and GP places and yet government seemingly gets no blame for raking in all the lovely immigrant tax money and failing to spend it on schools and surgeries...

"We didn't mess up - it's the fault of all those dirty foreigners!"

And the public bought it! :(
Last edited by elasto on Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:18 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 9992
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:14 pm UTC

elasto wrote:I disagree. The failure of the police meant that whether or not social services covered anything up these people were never going to be stopped. If you have the girls themselves going to the police saying they've been raped and the police ignore it, well, everything else is pretty much irrelevant.


In terms of the cases themselves and preventing future cases, it's not a moot point. In terms of how the cases have affected the rest of the UK and lead to Brexit, it's mostly a moot point.

Anyhow, as I say, given that these were not immigrant criminals but UK born this was a stupid reason for Leavers to latch on to.

Even if 'p0litical correctness' has gone too far that's still not something to blame innocent immigrants over. That's a failure of government not immigrants who, as I say, statistics show commit crimes at a lesser rate than native-born citizens.


As I've said, xenophobia isn't a precision instrument; all immigrants are going to get the blame for the actions of a few.

elasto
Posts: 3516
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:22 pm UTC

Damn! I managed to edit just when you posted again.

As I've said, xenophobia isn't a precision instrument; all immigrants are going to get the blame for the actions of a few.

Yeah - except that these weren't immigrants. They were run of the mill UK-born criminals.

Anyhow. Thanks for bringing the details of the case to my attention, I guess. I had managed to avoid most of the gruesome detail, I suppose. I tend to avoid reading these kind of news stories in much depth in recent years; It's way too depressing and there's not much I can do about it personally.

Astonishing just how badly everyone involved failed here and my view of my country just dropped another couple of notches :/

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3483
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:39 am UTC


User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 1806
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Sableagle » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:28 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I'm wondering if Sable was talking to that bloke before or after the Rotherham story broke.
After, but I doubt it changed his opinion at all. If anything, it just made him feel more immune to disagreement when he expressed it.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 18 guests