British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby PeteP » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:47 pm UTC

You are supposed to just quietly whisper those parts to yourself, that is why they are tiny!

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Jumble » Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:09 pm UTC

I am enjoying the growing belief in the UK that the US election works quite well for us. The UK press, obviously renowned for its balance and careful research, has concluded that a Trump executive will be our friend, will strike trade deals with us in preference to the EU, will preserve the ‘special relationship’. Trump talks of Theresa May as his Maggie Thatcher. Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson believes we should get over ourselves and stop the ‘whingeathon’.

Funny thing is that FS BoJo is a pathetic, pale reflection of the US president-elect. Serial adulterer, media-whore, demonstrably (thanks to Brexit) happy to sell out his friends, colleagues and supporters for any shot at power and utterly, hopelessly unqualified and unsuited for the role into which he has been appointed.

I don’t think the Donald will show any loyalty to the UK, any more than he will the US or those who supported him. We are, post Brexit, tiny and insignificant. He hopes that claiming May is his Maggie will give him the legitimacy he totally lacks. He hopes that a weakened and self-isolated UK can be pushed around on trade deals. He will cease to show any interest in us once he realises that we have nothing to offer.

It’s too late to ask my country to grow up and act like adults. However, sucking up to Trump is a new low, even for you.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:33 pm UTC

Boris is educated but got where he is, in part, by covering his machinations with an obfuscating stupidity, making him look 'harmless' until he got within harpooning distance of power (missed his first shot, probably his elbow was knocked by a trusted comrade, got given a chance at a possibly temporary consolation prize).

Donald has approached the problem from the other side, as far as I can see. Proclaiming everything that he does as 'genius', despite copious evidence to the contrary.

The former tactic works better in Britain1, the latter seems to be the way to entice people in the US. Reflects our respective national steretypes I suppose. Brash Yanks and Chinless Limeys...


1 I'd say Farage doesn't do that. He plays smart, and appears smart and gets away with it, though I wish he wouldn't. Although, much as I disagree with him, I'm not sure he isn't sincere in his absolute face-value, and I think he probably is fed up of being our local Come-Back Kid...

(ETA: But on that stage with Trump, he was clearly the brightest person in the room, even if he failed to change his performance to allow the baying mob to reach their usual levels of cheering excitement...)

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby quantropy » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:23 am UTC

Angela Merkel suggests she is willing to compromise on free movement
telegraph.co.uk wrote:Angela Merkel has for the first time signalled that she is willing to compromise on the issue of freedom of movement in the wake of Britain’s Brexit vote.
In comments seen as a significant shift, the German Chancellor suggested that the European Union needs to “discuss further” the rules around freedom of movement.

I think this could be hugely significant, even though it doesn't seem to have had much mention in the news so far. It could give moderates in other European countries the impetus to change their policies on immigration, in order to limit the popularity of right wing parties that has become apparent in the last year. This will put pressure on the EU to limit free movement. If that happens then I could well see Theresa May calling a general election on the ticket of staying in a modified EU with limits on freedom of movement.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Zamfir » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:23 am UTC

The telegraph might be overstating what Merkel is saying. The relevant section of the speech is below
-------
First, she says that freedom of movement is crucial, and it can't be the case that Britain gets special treatment, because everyone is going to demand special treatment on this or that.

Then she says that the EU should look at the time it takes before foreign workers become part of the host country's social benefit system. She clearly suggests that this should take longer. This is the part that the Telegraph talks about. But this was always Germany's position. For example, Germany, the UK , the Netherlands and Austria wrote a formal complaint together on this issue to the EU presidency back in 2013. There's no change here from Merkel, she's just using the new situation to reopen the discussion with other EU countries.

The the final paragraph below is fairly agressive towards Britain, by Merkel standards. She says the freedom of movement itself should not be touched. Then calls out a paradox. For years, Britain insulted (her word) Germany for demanding a transition period on access for Eastern European workers. While now the Brits complain that they, by their own choice, didn't have such a transition period, and now hope to end freedom of movement in the entire EU. She says she won't negotiate at all, until the Brits make up their mind about how they want to leave.
--------

EDIt: If I read the tea leaves correctly, then this is mostly a statement from Merkel towards emigration countries in the EU. She says that Germany will support them in a hard stance towards Britain, about freedom of movement as a condition for the common market. Even though Germany has relatively much to lose if Britain leaves the common market. But in return, she wants that those countries accept a longer time before their migrants can access social benefits in Germany. And she makes this statement at the German Employer Union. People who don't want Britain out of the common market, but who might be placated by the social benefit stuff.

https://m.bundeskanzlerin.de/Content/DE/Rede/2016/11/2016-11-15-rede-merkel-bda.html
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Da will ich nochmals darauf hinweisen – und ich bin auch dankbar dafür, dass die BDA das genauso sieht –: Die Europäische Union entfaltet ihre Vorzüge nur auf der Basis bestimmter Grundsätze; und zu diesen Grundsätzen zählen die vier Grundfreiheiten, also die Freiheit der Bewegung von Personen, von Dienstleistungen, von Gütern und von Finanzmarktprodukten. Gesetzt den Fall, wir machen für Großbritannien bei der Personenfreizügigkeit eine Ausnahme, dann würde dies bedeuten, dass wir die Grundsätze des gesamten Binnenmarkts der Europäischen Union in Gefahr bringen, weil alle anderen dann auch Ausnahmen haben wollten.

Deshalb glaube ich persönlich: Wir werden uns noch einmal auf eine Diskussion mit der Kommission über Freizügigkeit einrichten müssen. Denn wenn zum Beispiel jemand im Rahmen der Freizügigkeit aus einem osteuropäischen Land nach Deutschland kommt, nur kurzzeitig erwerbstätig ist, aber hier damit einen lebenslangen Anspruch auf dauerhafte Sozialleistungen erwirbt, dann sehe ich darin schon eine Frage, über die wir noch einmal reden müssen. Denn Freizügigkeit gilt für mich in dem Sinne, dass der Arbeitnehmer das Geld, das er für sich und den Unterhalt seiner Familie braucht, auch in einem anderen Mitgliedstaat verdienen kann. Insofern muss über die Frage, ab wann lebenslange Sicherheiten nach dem Sozialstandard des aufnehmenden Landes gelten, sicherlich noch geredet werden.

An der grundsätzlichen Frage der Freizügigkeit dürfen wir nach meiner festen Überzeugung aber nicht rütteln. Aber es ist wiederum ein Paradoxon, dass die Briten uns jahrelang beschimpft haben, dass wir mit Blick auf Polen und andere osteuropäische Länder Übergangsfristen in Anspruch genommen haben, und heute diejenigen sind, die darüber klagen, dass sie diese Übergangsfristen nicht in Anspruch genommen haben, und die Freizügigkeit in ganz Europa beschneiden wollen. Das geht nicht. Bevor wir faire Verhandlungen führen, muss Großbritannien allerdings auch erst einmal erklären, in welcher Weise es den Austritt wünscht, was ja nach Aussagen der britischen Premierministerin bis März nächsten Jahres erfolgen soll

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby PeteP » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:29 am UTC

Good, freedom of movement is for me an important part of the EU and I would be annoyed if the UK managed to damage it while leaving. (And yeah I agree with Zamfirs reading of the speech.)

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby svenman » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:20 pm UTC

Zamfir, paraphrasing Angela Merkel, wrote:[...]For years, Britain insulted (her word) Germany for demanding a transition period on access for Eastern European workers. While now the Brits complain that they, by their own choice, didn't have such a transition period, and now hope to end freedom of movement in the entire EU.[...]

https://m.bundeskanzlerin.de/Content/EN/Artikel/2016/11_en/2016-11-11-integrationsgipfel_en.html?templateQueryString=Search+term
[...]Aber es ist wiederum ein Paradoxon, dass die Briten uns jahrelang beschimpft haben, dass wir mit Blick auf Polen und andere osteuropäische Länder Übergangsfristen in Anspruch genommen haben, und heute diejenigen sind, die darüber klagen, dass sie diese Übergangsfristen nicht in Anspruch genommen haben, und die Freizügigkeit in ganz Europa beschneiden wollen. Das geht nicht.[...]

Zamfir, the link you've provided doesn't take me to a source for the orignal text that you've, thankfully, provided as well.

Also I'd consider "insulted" a mistranslation. Within context, I'd think a better representation of the original meaning could go along the lines of "For years, Britain cussed Germany out for demanding a transition period..." (the corresponding sentence in German was phrased less colloquially, but not by much). 'Insult' seems like a fairly strong accusation which is a meaning I don't get from the original German.

Other than that I'm generally in agreement with you, though.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Zamfir » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:59 pm UTC

Changed the link, sorry. I tried to find an English version, then accidentally copied the failed search attempt in...

I struggled on 'beschimpft', yeah. In this context, something between 'berate' and 'cuss out'? The implication is clearly that the Brits were nasty about it, not just voicing a disagreement.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby svenman » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:55 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Changed the link, sorry. I tried to find an English version, then accidentally copied the failed search attempt in...

Thanks.

I struggled on 'beschimpft', yeah. In this context, something between 'berate' and 'cuss out'?

Pretty much, or if you'd want to reformulate it in a less colloquial way, 'strongly criticise'.

The implication is clearly that the Brits were nasty about it, not just voicing a disagreement.

Not so clear from my perspective (native German speaker, resident of Germany, familiar with Merkel's use of language). "Beschimpfen" has a range of possible interpretations as far as degree of nastiness is concerned. From context, Merkel's point seems less about any degree of nastiness of the UK government's criticism and more about the fact that it happened at all, in particular considering that the UK's not choosing to do the same as Germany appears to have led to an amount of EU nationals' immigration to the UK which engendered a degree of resentment among the UK population that strongly contributed to the Brexit vote.

[Edit:] And indeed, by a literal reading it would seem that Angela Merkel claims that somehow, through the process of leaving the EU, the UK at the same time tries to reduce freedom of movement throughout the EU, which makes little sense. I think the intended meaning is: by leaving the EU, the UK intends to reduce the applicability of freedom of movement concerning the territory of the UK.

Regarding the paradox, that is of course easily resolved: the UK doesn't like a detriment to itself but is perfectly happy to see a similar detriment to another country as long as that seems to be good for the UK.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Zamfir » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:32 pm UTC

And indeed, by a literal reading it would seem that Angela Merkel claims that somehow, through the process of leaving the EU, the UK at the same time tries to reduce freedom of movement throughout the EU, which makes little sense. I think the intended meaning is: by leaving the EU, the UK intends to reduce the applicability of freedom of movement concerning the territory of the UK.

Perhaps, yes. Though you get another reading ic you combine it with her earlier point, that granting Britain's demands would lead to other countries demanding exemptions, until most of the current freedoms are gone. In that sense, Britain is indeed asking for the end of freedom of movement throughout Europe. Not as a goal in itself, but as a consequence of their demands.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby svenman » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:03 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
And indeed, by a literal reading it would seem that Angela Merkel claims that somehow, through the process of leaving the EU, the UK at the same time tries to reduce freedom of movement throughout the EU, which makes little sense. I think the intended meaning is: by leaving the EU, the UK intends to reduce the applicability of freedom of movement concerning the territory of the UK.

Perhaps, yes. Though you get another reading ic you combine it with her earlier point, that granting Britain's demands would lead to other countries demanding exemptions, until most of the current freedoms are gone. In that sense, Britain is indeed asking for the end of freedom of movement throughout Europe. Not as a goal in itself, but as a consequence of their demands.

Sure, abandoning freedom of movement as a principle of the EU could be a political price that, if paid, would probably be sufficient to result in the UK's remaining in the EU, if that is what you're trying to get at. However, not only is that not on the table, but neither do May and her government seem to expect it could be.

A scenario, however, where the UK leaves the EU but successfully negotiates to retain access to the Common Market while still getting out of the obligation to abide by freedom of movement seems a little more realistic, admittedly, and maybe that is what you mean. And I agree that this would be still sending a bad message, but it would still involve leaving the EU to get exceptions, and retaining an amount of benefits directly related to your economical bargaining power as a nation – and the UK still has one that among the other EU countries, IMO, none except France and Germany can match.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Zamfir » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:28 am UTC

We're getting perhaps too deep in what we think that Merkel perhaps might be saying about how things might work out...

It's confusion overall. We don't know how things will play out, we can only guess. And Britain's position is completely unclear, even to its leadership.

If the support for Brexit had been stronger, and more widely shared among politicians and the civil service, they might have moved faster. Just do it, accept some losses on the details, fix them later on. But now they want some optimal Brexit strategy, and that's hard and divisive.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:56 pm UTC

Given that the UK was a hair's-breadth from flipping a coin to see who had actually 'won' this apparently decisive (and definitely devisive) referendum, I'm totally not surprised that we're unclear what we apparently voted for.

Slightly over a third of voters/potential voters (numbering a mere quarter of the whole population) voted one way, slightly less slightly over a third of voters/potential votets (a tad under a quarter of the population) voted the other way and the remaining just-less-than-a-third of voters/potential voters did not express their opinion, or even had not registered. (And this also means that half the population, including a large pool of politically thoughtful and vocal but currently not yet enfrachised-to-vote youngsters, might feel their feelings were not heard.)

Not to say that the temporary silent/apathetic, or not inactive but voiceless, would have plumped for either side (I know of some who publicly swung most definitely their parents' way, surprise surprise, and the opposite was often true), but the will of the UK population is far from clear.

An individual in a similar bind, asked whether he wants pizza or chips, might well go "ummm... Ahhh.. I don't know... Chips. Maybe?" and then later be kicking himself for not specifying that in that decision he wanted the good chips, from the better of the town's two chippies,. And haddock, please. Not too much vinegar, just a sprinkling, in fact can he be there to do it himself just how he likes it, instead of getting them drenched in the stuff? Whereas if he'd have gone for pizza he might have had to choose between pepparoni, hawaiian and margarita, but he at least knows roughly what he'd be getting, even if he doresn't like the crispy edge crusts.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:28 pm UTC

The British public will not accept a Brexit deal that leaves them worse off financially, a new poll suggests.

In a sign that a majority of the public would be unwilling to accept an economically damaging hard Brexit, half of those who voted to leave the EU [and presumably all of those who voted to remain] would not be willing to lose any money at all as a consequence of Britain’s withdrawal.

Italics mine.

The reality is hitting home. I'd tell them I told you so but it's a pyrrhic victory given that it'll be my pocket suffering too.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:36 pm UTC

I'm honestly wondering when the government is going to give up their approach of living in a fantasy, and literally saying they can have their cake and eat it. I mean... how do you even parody this shit any more.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:52 pm UTC

UK businesses will have to deal with 60m more pieces of paperwork each year if Britain leaves the customs union as it departs the EU, according to research from a group campaigning to keep trade links with the bloc after Brexit.

According to Open Britain, which has support from remain MPs in the three main Westminster parties, customs data shows that last year the UK made 70.5m import declarations and 6.5m export declarations over trade in non-EU goods.

The group says that if leaving the customs union involved a similar level of customs paperwork, it would require businesses to complete more than 45m import declarations and 15m export declarations every year.


I mean, that's obvious, isn't it? If you leave a union then the amount of paperwork required to trade with that union will go up, not down.

Oh. Wait.

This contradicts the arguments of pro-Brexit campaigners made before the June referendum, namely that leaving the EU would save businesses from EU-related bureaucracy.


Hmm. Surely they didn't just say the opposite of the truth just because people wanted to hear it..?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:00 pm UTC

The UK's ambassador to the EU, Sir Ivan Rogers, has resigned.

Sir Ivan, appointed to the job by David Cameron in 2013, had been expected to play a key role in Brexit talks expected to start within months.

Last month the BBC revealed he had privately told ministers a UK-EU trade deal might take 10 years to finalise, sparking criticism from some MPs.

Ministers have said a deal can be done within two years.
MP Hilary Benn, who chairs the Brexit select committee, said it had come at a "crucial" point and urged the government to "get its skates on" in finding a replacement. "It couldn't be a more difficult time to organise a handover," he added.
Former Conservative cabinet minister John Redwood said Sir Ivan had made a "very wise decision", saying his leaked advice suggested he did "not really have his heart in" Brexit, believing it to be "very difficult and long-winded".

He said the new ambassador should be someone "who thinks it's straightforward".
The Treasury's former top civil servant, Lord Macpherson - who is now a crossbench peer - said his departure marked a "wilful" and "total destruction" of EU expertise within Whitehall.

More than ever in this post-truth age, it's important to drive out all contradictory voices no matter how well informed they might be. Faith is more important than reason.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Angua » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:51 pm UTC

Um, do you really think that someone whose job for the last 3 years has been to negotiate with the EU could have any sort of valid opinion on how long it would take to negotiate with the EU?

As opposed to those who want to have a 'red, white and blue Brexit?'.

Blasphemy.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:19 am UTC

This is an opportunity to put a Brexiteer in charge of the negotiations who thinks it's all going to be oh so simple, and give them a strict definition of what success looks like, and tell them they'll be kicked out of the party if they fail to deliver in two years.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:18 pm UTC

Well, there's always Boris... It would show how seriously most of the country want Brexit...

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Liri » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:47 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:Well, there's always Boris... It would show how seriously most of the country want Brexit...

There's always Nigel...
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Jumble » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:15 pm UTC

Liri wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:Well, there's always Boris... It would show how seriously most of the country want Brexit...

There's always Nigel...

Sorry, there's never Nigel. There are pieces of orange peel floating down the Thames with more opinion.

And Boris? Don't shop me but no, he doesn't have an opinion that mummy Theresa hasn't signed off on...
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:17 am UTC

Hard Brexit, here we come.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38641208

The UK will not retain "partial" membership of the EU once it leaves, Theresa May will say in her much-anticipated Brexit speech.

The PM will tell other European countries the UK wants to trade with them "as freely as possible" but will not be "half-in, half-out" of the EU.

Her speech is expected to include further hints Britain could leave the EU single market.


Part of me wonders if May, who backed Remain, wants to preserve the EU by making sure leaving it is as disastrous for the UK as possible.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elasto » Tue Jan 17, 2017 11:48 am UTC

Not sure if you're saying the same thing, but if there's some kind of Machiavellian scheme going on, it's not impossible that she's trying to make Brexit look as painful as possible for all concerned in the hope that some kind of u-turn becomes possible.

eg. What if we get to the end of the EU negotiations and, somehow, Europe makes a huge concession on free movement? Maybe we could have a second in-out referendum which probably Remain would win. It's not impossible because there are other countries (or, political parties at least) in the EU who'd like major reform to immigration too.

Sadly, I doubt there's any such scheming in play; I think it's the simple reality that a soft-Brexit is just wishful thinking. Immigration was the main reason for the vote so a hard Brexit is the only realistic outcome - just like Remain warned... :(

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:12 pm UTC

Yes I agree, it was long pointed out that we could either stay in the single market, or have immigration control, not both. The assumption was that we'd clearly be forced to continue allowing free movement of people, because we wouldn't be so stupidly self-destructive as to leave the single market... right? Nope, turns out allowing free movement of people is so unacceptable that we're willing to destroy our economy to stop it.

EDIT: Is there any data supporting the idea immigration was the main reason for the leave vote? The survey I saw suggested "sovereignty" was the chief reason given.

EDIT2: Update to the story, May has spelt it out:

Theresa May has said the UK "cannot possibly" remain within the European single market, as staying in it would mean "not leaving the EU at all".

But the prime minister promised to push for the "greatest possible" access to the single market following Brexit.

In a long-awaited speech, she also announced Parliament would get a vote on the final deal agreed between the UK and the European Union.

And Mrs May promised an end to "vast contributions" to the organisation.

In her speech, Mrs May announced:
The final Brexit deal agreed between the EU and the UK would be voted on by both Houses of Parliament before it comes into force
The government would work to maintain the "common travel area" between the UK and Irish Republic
Ministers would work for the "freest possible" free trade

She wanted a customs agreement with the EU, but had no "preconceived position"


Will be interesting to see how we maintain free movement of people with Ireland, while Ireland maintains free movement with the EU, yet somehow the UK doesn't have free movement with the EU.

Anyway, financial workers in Paris and Frankfurt will be leaping for joy right now. Much of the UK's GDP will be coming their way soon.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:08 pm UTC

Britain could have passport checks with Ireland, but let anyone with Irish ID in without question? It'll be difficult since Ireland and NI have so many roads so there'd have to be so many checkpoints, not to mention that it very well could add some tensions just as people got used to no Troubles, but the reality is most illegal immigrants currently come through the Chunnel. The Syrians at least; that's kind of who this is about.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:19 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Britain could have passport checks with Ireland, but let anyone with Irish ID in without question? It'll be difficult since Ireland and NI have so many roads so there'd have to be so many checkpoints, not to mention that it very well could add some tensions just as people got used to no Troubles, but the reality is most illegal immigrants currently come through the Chunnel. The Syrians at least; that's kind of who this is about.


Plenty of people live in NI and work in ROI, and vice-versa. So, having to go through checkpoints would be a terrible, terrible solution, and probably cause NI to break away from the UK. And this isn't really about the illegal immigrants, it's about eastern Europeans who came to the UK in large numbers in the last few years. Brexit by itself doesn't really change the refugee situation, at least with the illegal immigrants - they'll come here anyway, in larger numbers once the French stop bothering to stop them. It changes the situation with the ones we might have been forced to accept to be relocated here, but that's a separate topic from the border with Ireland.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby HES » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:32 pm UTC

The only way the Ireland situation will work is to have border checks between (mainland) EU and Ireland, nothing between Ireland and Northern Ireland, and border checks between Northern Ireland and (mainland) UK.

EU Citizens can freely access EU, Ireland, NI
Ireland Citizens can freely access EU, Ireland, NI, UK
UK Citizens can freely access Ireland, NI, UK

Putting border checks between NI and the south is out of the question.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Liri » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:54 pm UTC

Or, NI holds that referendum they're bound to and quit the UK.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:57 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The Syrians at least; that's kind of who this is about.
I imagine that it was "what it was all about" for many (I know someone for whom it definitely was, with some of the other factors also added on, like not wanting a "European Army", for... reasons), even though the UK was actually made exempt from the most significant "take these non-EU refugees and spread them around your counties" programme, that it effectively maintained a refugee border at the Channel ports/Chunnel (that wasn't impermeable, but was far from "free movement") and remained isolated from most of the financial repercussions as well (may possibly have done well out of it)...

Aforesaid aquaintance would very much love it if Europe fragmented, the 'border nations' collapse like dominoes under outside pressures (of various kinds), potentially pushing the dominoes over that are the secondary border nations as we get the likes of Greek refugees fleeing their collapse, and continuing even as far as La Manche... So that it can stop there, we can laugh and declare Europe dead. Compared to that nihilism, I think pressing for diamond-hard Brexit and destroying (most of?) the British Isles in various political and financial ways is a less worse option, and that really was my instinct when I learnt which idiotic route the 'people' (slightly over a third of them, at least) were demanding.

Right now, I'm open to a little upheval to demonstrate problems with the proposotion, just so long as we don't step over that "take backsies" line.


Oh, and if nobody else has yet mentioned it, there's a snap election in Norn Irland less than a month before the proposed Article 50 triggering. That'll be loaded with meaning, I imagine, even considering it is already known to be a Remain-majority province. Even more so than these by-elections we've been having.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:10 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:(I know someone for whom it definitely was, with some of the other factors also added on, like not wanting a "European Army", for... reasons)


The irony there is we can only stop the creation of a European army with the veto we currently have as an EU member.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby sardia » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:55 pm UTC

Quick note, saying Theresa was a remain side isn't accurate. She prefers remaining but she wanted serious reforms. She can accompany those reforms no matter if the UK leaves or remains.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:58 pm UTC

A lot of remainers wanted reforms.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby stopmadnessnow » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:29 pm UTC

How the Hell do you "remain membership"? Should be retain.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:31 pm UTC

stopmadnessnow wrote:How the Hell do you "remain membership"? Should be retain.


Remain part of the EU.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Mutex » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:33 pm UTC

stopmadnessnow wrote:How the Hell do you "remain membership"? Should be retain.


The only search result for "remain membership" I can find on this page or in the news article is your post, what are you referring to?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby stopmadnessnow » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:38 pm UTC

On the ballot paper, I think.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby elliptic » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:52 pm UTC

The exact question on the ballot was: "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"

Which you presumably know already, given your location. Anyway, no-one else in the UK seemed to have any difficulty parsing it.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:54 pm UTC

stopmadnessnow wrote:On the ballot paper, I think.

"Remain a member of the European Union"
"Leave the European Union"

Ninjaed. These are the answers to the question eliptic quoted.

(Didn't stop misinterpretations. Such as "Voting for this option will abolish the £", "We'll keep all the benefits while saying No to anything more spicy than a garlic bread" or "I don't like Cameron, please make him quit". Although the last of these did happen, so...)

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

Postby HES » Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:08 pm UTC

You retain membership by remaining a member.
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