British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby PeteP » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:44 pm UTC

cphite wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
cphite wrote:You can't just change the rules after the vote because you don't like the result.
Who's talking about changing the rules after the vote? This line of discussion started with the idea that the rule should have been made before the vote, except that it wasn't expected to succeed.


The line of discussion has also included holding a second vote, allowing specific states to hold a second vote, etc, etc.

All of which falls under changing the rules.

Add to this the multiple ideas presented on how the government could simply ignore the results, or slow-roll the process until people change their minds, and various other ways to manipulate the process to nullify the result...

Makes it really easy to see why a lot of those "leave" folks voted the way they did.

You are proposing they voted leave because they expect politicians to get out of it someway should they win? That is quite a bold claim! Do you have support for it?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:45 pm UTC

He is implying that the voters felt treated unfairly, and became suspicious and resentful of those in power.

This does seem to be kind of a trend in the west, I think.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:10 pm UTC

With some justification.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby commodorejohn » Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:48 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Let's be perfectly honest here: most of those leave folks voted the way they did because racism and xenophobia.

And you know that how, exactly?
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Adacore » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:05 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:The second scenario is where article 50 is invoked, talks to reach a favourable deal for Britain after leaving break down, the British economy tanks, the country spirals into a recession, leaving becomes deeply unpopular and 2 years down the line Britain comes back begging reentry. I don't think that's very realistic though, because deep recessions generally only increase nationalism.

I really don't know if this scenario is realistic or not, but it seems possible. Recessions do generally increase nationalism, but if the recession has a direct causal link to a nationalist movement, that might change things. Or, it might not, I don't know.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby elasto » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:37 am UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Let's be perfectly honest here: most of those leave folks voted the way they did because racism and xenophobia.

And you know that how, exactly?

I only really know of two core reasons for voting Leave.

The first is to reduce immigration. The second is to reduce the power the EU has over us. Both of those involve a fear of foreigners somehow messing up (or already having messed up) what otherwise would be fine - in the first case our public services, and, the in the second, our legislation.

Now, it's such an everyday form of xenophobia noone would bat at eyelid at the correctness of it, but it's misguided none-the-less.

In the first case, immigration doesn't mess up our public services (eg. our NHS, our schools getting overwhelmed etc.) because immigrants pay in more than they take out, so it's just a case of central government allocating the tax profits fairly rather than using them to cut taxes on the rich faster, say.

In the second case, it's not really the case that a German voter has different 'core values' than a British one, so its actually not 'dangerous' that a German voter has the same say in who is elected and appointed into the EU halls of power as a Brit. And, in any case, UK voters, through their democratically elected UK representatives, have a veto on all important changes. So, again, it's an unfounded fear over the power and reach foreigners have.

And some Brits definitely do cross the line between everyday, 'acceptable' xenophobia into just plain racism. That's clear when British Muslims get shouted at with 'we voted for you to leave, why aren't you gone already?'

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Lucrece » Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:19 am UTC

Are we seriously going to reduce reluctance to allow foreign nations to dictate policy to a sovereign nation as xenophobia?

It's pretty reasonable to think that foreigners don't hold your nation's interests in the same regard you do. Look at the US's meddling in other nations' governments and please tell me that it was unreasonable or xenophobic for those affected nations to see the US's efforts being all about their own gain.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Angua » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:00 am UTC

Um, the US does so unasked for from a position of power (and often without consent), while Britain gets a vote and a veto (I mean, Europe obviously can't dictate to us completely if we're still using the pound and the occassional imperial units)? I think you're being intentionally obtuse with that as an example.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:08 am UTC

While there are differences between the EU and Lucrece's hypothetical, I think it suffices for the point that not wanting to be subject to legislation from outside your country need not be an expression of xenophobia.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Angua » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:29 am UTC

Really? We're not going to look at the actual circumstances of that legislation affecting the country.

It's not like the EU invaded Britain and installed a puppet government, or has been quitely giving money to terrorist organisations to bring us down. Britain can propose changes to EU law, and can vote against them. It is not the same thing.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:33 am UTC

Nobody is saying that they're the same thing.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Angua » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:39 am UTC

Then there's not point in bringing it up?? Because it's completely irrelevant.

Not to mention, the whole treating the EU and Europe as a 'foreign body' is pretty xenophobic, as it's made up of lots of individual countries with their own individual say. Britain has as much of a say as any given country, but given that we act as though Europe is all one place then it gives an illusion that they have more power.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Zamfir » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:02 am UTC

Not to mention, the whole treating the EU and Europe as a 'foreign body' is pretty xenophobic,

Yeah, this. There are plenty the of non-xenophobic objections the EU, but comparisons to CIA plotting surely count as xenophobic?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby maybeagnostic » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:38 am UTC

elasto wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Let's be perfectly honest here: most of those leave folks voted the way they did because racism and xenophobia.

And you know that how, exactly?

I only really know of two core reasons for voting Leave.

The first is to reduce immigration. The second is to reduce the power the EU has over us.
I think there are other reasons one might consider to do it. Reasons to do with some glaring problems within the union that were exposed in the recent crises but no one is even thinking about fixing. Those are not the reason any significant number of English people voted to leave though and they were never a noticeable part of the discussion.


Lucrece wrote:Are we seriously going to reduce reluctance to allow foreign nations to dictate policy to a sovereign nation as xenophobia?

And if that is your view, not only is Brexit the only possible solution but you should have never been in the EU in the first place. EU laws affecting a state in the EU is a lot closer to US laws affecting a US state than this inaccurate idea of foreign nations dictating policy. The EU isn't a "foreign nation" and it isn't the Soviet Union where a single side dictated policy and demanded obedience.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby quantropy » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:11 am UTC

I voted for Remain, but the more I think about it, the more understandable the Leave vote becomes.

1: Immigration. The thing that no one seems to be considering is that England is a small densely populated country. It's also considerably richer than many of the countries which are joining the EU. So it acts as a magnet for those from other countries who want a better life, and who are willing to work for less than the current population. In a bigger country it might be possible to build lots of new houses, but here people just see wages stagnating and house prices going up - it's no wonder they vote against it

2:The political structure. There has been great resistance to a more federal structure, but this means that no one seems to be accountable for decisions made. My understanding is that it's the council of ministers who have the power, rather than MEPs, so it's not at all clear who you can vote for if you disagree with a decision. This gives the impression of decisions being imposed 'from above'

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:14 am UTC

Indeed (ninjaed... - not a reply to quantropy! ), the argument all along was "those unelected bureaucrats". Bureaucrats, maybe in part, as if that's a bad thing. Unelected, only if you ignore the MEPs from every country, as directly from the public vote as any MP or equivalent national-level representative - and there are ?73? of ours out of 751 total - plus those appointed by our own elected officials. And those people definitely include our own people. There are (or were?) 14 EU Commisioners from the UK, comparable with Germany and Italy, although Luxemberg outnumbers us both in absolute and thus of course vastly in per-head-of-population terms.

But then I never actually voted for David Cameron, any of his cabinet, even any of the shadow cabinet. I am represented (however well or badly) by an MP, but I have to recognise that just because the UK isn't a puppet head for the People's Republic Of South Yorkshire that the entire machinations of the elected Commons, the unelected (but, IMO, stablising1) second chamber and the whole Heath Robinson (US: Rube Goldberg) contraption that is Whitehall (getting things done properly, if not always simply) shouldn't be rejected as legitimate bracket of power over my life, and that we must instead declare independance from the UK immediately. Rise up, oh, rise up, the Workers! What few of them there are, in some parts...


1 Nobody has yet mentioned whether the Lords get a role in this whole debacle. I suspect they want to have as little to do with it as possible, at the moment, poisoned chalice as it is. Ditto, with Her Majesty, who should probably remain as publicly aloof as always, whatever is going on in the backchannels.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Fractal_Tangent » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:31 am UTC

quantropy wrote:
I voted for Remain, but the more I think about it, the more understandable the Leave vote becomes.

1: Immigration. The thing that no one seems to be considering is that England is a small densely populated country. It's also considerably richer than many of the countries which are joining the EU. So it acts as a magnet for those from other countries who want a better life, and who are willing to work for less than the current population. In a bigger country it might be possible to build lots of new houses, but here people just see wages stagnating and house prices going up - it's no wonder they vote against it


So, if I was in a crappy country and didn't have loads of money, if I could work in the UK for even a little bit more than what I got in my home country, it would probably make sense. I think that the resolution to people willing to work for less is to either have the government make sure everyone is paid a living wage so no-one is accidentally undercutting anyone else, or go after the companies that are exploiting people who are working for less. The issue with houses is more to do with lots of houses in the buy-to-rent market being sat on by older people (and in London, the very rich). People are buying properties for an investment.

Immigration is a great thing for our country and it really bothers me that nobody is willing to have a positive conversation about why hard working people who are propping our NHS up are worried about having to leave the UK. Hell, even vegetable pickers make some sort of positive contribution, they work long, physically grueling hours for pittance that hardly anyone from the UK would do.

Edit: not to mention that we have an aging population with issues about pensions. We need more young families coming over here to work to balance these issues.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Echo244 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:47 am UTC

Fractal_Tangent wrote:Immigration is a great thing for our country and it really bothers me that nobody is willing to have a positive conversation about why hard working people who are propping our NHS up are worried about having to leave the UK. Hell, even vegetable pickers make some sort of positive contribution, they work long, physically grueling hours for pittance that hardly anyone from the UK would do.


Yes, but it's impossible to have that conversation with anyone. The whole conversation has been made impossible by years if not decades of dripping poison about "taking our jobs" and the like. Nobody, but nobody (in England at least), would stick up in public for immigration. Hell, at the end, even the Remain side (OK, Cameron) was talking about having to seriously reduce immigration, rather than showing it as a positive thing. And now I've heard a Labour MP talking about finding a way to make a "progressive case" to reduce immigration.

I don't know any other solution to this than withdrawing to some kinder place while England demonises immigrants and chases them out, then has to suffer the consequences. Which is horrific, but I've been told that all the things showing immigrants to be positively contributing to society are "lies". How do you argue with that?
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Diadem » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:40 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Also, the UK isn't a democracy, so the complaint that people are suggesting something undemocratic seems misplaced.

How is the UK not a democracy? Please don't tell me your answer is "Because it's a monarchy", because if that's your argument I'm just going to point and laugh.

quantropy wrote:I voted for Remain, but the more I think about it, the more understandable the Leave vote becomes.

1: Immigration. The thing that no one seems to be considering is that England is a small densely populated country. It's also considerably richer than many of the countries which are joining the EU. So it acts as a magnet for those from other countries who want a better life, and who are willing to work for less than the current population. In a bigger country it might be possible to build lots of new houses, but here people just see wages stagnating and house prices going up - it's no wonder they vote against it

If I recall correctly then, excluding London, England per capita GDP is at 80% of the EU average. So the notion that hordes of EU citizens want to come there for its riches seems a bit of a stretch. London is a bit of an exception here, it's much richer than the rest of England, or, indeed, most of Europe. But London is rich because of immigration, not despite it. London's entire wealth is build on international businesses doing international things.

There's certainly an immigration crisis going on, and on the whole the EU's response to this crisis has been inadequate. But this has very little to do with the free immigration between member states that the EU enables. Syria is not in the EU. And leaving the EU won't solve the crisis. In fact it'll only exacerbate it. The EU's response to the crisis has been inadequate precisely because it was too much each country doing its own thing.

quantropy wrote:2:The political structure. There has been great resistance to a more federal structure, but this means that no one seems to be accountable for decisions made. My understanding is that it's the council of ministers who have the power, rather than MEPs, so it's not at all clear who you can vote for if you disagree with a decision. This gives the impression of decisions being imposed 'from above'

The EU is a bit complex and unwieldy, and it's power structures are a bit opaque. But all people in positions of power were elected by the European people, either directly or indirectly. Decisions will be made by people you don't know whose reasons aren't always clear. That's the case in the EU, but that's also the case in the UK, or in England, or even in your local city. That's how democracy works.

In the EU, England sometimes gets overruled by the other member states. But that's not different than Scotland sometimes getting overruled by the rest of the UK.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Xenomortis » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:05 am UTC

Apparently the SNP will be asking for official Opposition status in Westminster, citing the Labour leader's lack of support amongst his own MPs.
This seems more like a political stunt rather than a serious attempt - the SNP are the third largest party but only hold Scottish seats. They've dug up a rule requiring the opposition to be able to "assume power", but it's hard to claim the ability to control the House when you have less than 10% of the seats.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Diadem » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:35 am UTC

No doubt that's a political stunt. But as political stunts go, that's a pretty nice one.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:58 am UTC

Diadem wrote:No doubt that's a political stunt. But as political stunts go, that's a pretty nice one.


Me: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=113501&p=4019827#p4019827
Right now, I'm seriously wondering if the anti-UKIP stance could be servable by some form of "SNP in England" machine...


...maybe, then.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Xenomortis » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:04 am UTC

Except the SNP contest zero English, Welsh, or Northern Irish seats.
And remember, in the last election, the Conservatives consumed Lib Dem seats running on the campaign "vote for us, or SNP+Labour will rule England".
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:10 am UTC

Xenomortis wrote:Except the SNP contest zero English, Welsh, or Northern Irish seats.
And remember, in the last election, the Conservatives consumed Lib Dem seats running on the campaign "vote for us, or SNP+Labour will rule England".

Doesn't stop them raising candidates in the possibly forthcoming snap election.
And the jury is out whether the Conservatives ruling England is being seen in good light...

It is also already being considering what to do with parliament whilst much-needed refurbishment of the Houses Of Parliament is undertaken, as well, so perhaps they can be offered space up at Holyrood 'for the duration'? ;)

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby HES » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:47 am UTC

Soupspoon wrote:It is also already being considering what to do with parliament whilst much-needed refurbishment of the Houses Of Parliament is undertaken, as well, so perhaps they can be offered space up at Holyrood 'for the duration'? ;)

I thought they decided to stay put during the process, which of course would drag it out longer and increase costs.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:53 am UTC

HES wrote:I thought they decided to stay put during the process, which of course would drag it out longer and increase costs.
Hadn't heard that.

But who'd have thunk they'd have chosen pretty much the least efficient possible method... Consider my flabber thoroughly gasted.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:35 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Are we seriously going to reduce reluctance to allow foreign nations to dictate policy to a sovereign nation as xenophobia?

It's pretty reasonable to think that foreigners don't hold your nation's interests in the same regard you do. Look at the US's meddling in other nations' governments and please tell me that it was unreasonable or xenophobic for those affected nations to see the US's efforts being all about their own gain.


Xenophobia is one possible reason. It's certainly not the only possible reason.

I can't help but think sometimes that if the US were divided into smaller nations, perhaps local interests would be better represented. There are tradeoffs, obviously, but merely thinking about such possibilities doesn't mean one is consumed by fear or hate.

Not being from there, I can't really claim any special knowledge as to why the voters in general decided. There seems to be a theme of presenting "leave" voters as ignorant at the moment, but...if we're being honest about it, there are voters in every election who are ignorant. And it's common for them to get air time, because the media loves pointing out the unusual.

For instance, I followed up on the "Google trends says more people were googling 'What is the EU' post-brexit". Looking over the adwords data, yeah, there was a brief spike(about 250% of average), but this only makes up fewer than a thousand people altogether. People are googling this all the time, apparently, and it's not really that surprising that it had a slight blip of popularity when a big event happened. The number isn't really significant when compared against the voting population.

Fractal_Tangent wrote:So, if I was in a crappy country and didn't have loads of money, if I could work in the UK for even a little bit more than what I got in my home country, it would probably make sense. I think that the resolution to people willing to work for less is to either have the government make sure everyone is paid a living wage so no-one is accidentally undercutting anyone else, or go after the companies that are exploiting people who are working for less. The issue with houses is more to do with lots of houses in the buy-to-rent market being sat on by older people (and in London, the very rich). People are buying properties for an investment.


You can't very well do vast wage setting without causing further problems.

And it's not really exploitation when people freely choose to do it. At least, it's not any more or less of exploitation than any other job is.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:57 pm UTC

Angua wrote:Then there's not point in bringing it up??

As a response to elasto's claim that objections to the EU's power must be a matter of xenophobia.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Angua » Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:47 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Angua wrote:Then there's not point in bringing it up??

As a response to elasto's claim that objections to the EU's power must be a matter of xenophobia.

As already stated it is not relevant to to situation at hand therefore makes no sense bringing it up. Unless you think the two situations are equivalent, it doesn't speak to a non xenophobic reason for wanting the UK not to be part of the EU.

Also see other posts for why this example is a red herring and treating "Europe" and the EU as a foreign entity is pretty xenophobic.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby morriswalters » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:00 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I can't help but think sometimes that if the US were divided into smaller nations, perhaps local interests would be better represented.
Yeah, that worked so well in Europe. Two World Wars in the last century. 20 to 30 million dead.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:00 pm UTC

How are the various other countries that make up the EU/Europe NOT foreign, relative to England?

They're other countries, that's what that word means.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:24 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Let's be perfectly honest here: most of those leave folks voted the way they did because racism and xenophobia.

And you know that how, exactly?


"Most" is difficult to prove.

I think "lots" of people voted because of Racism / Xenophobia (where as low as 5% would qualify as "lots"): https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... -of-color/
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Zohar » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:28 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:How are the various other countries that make up the EU/Europe NOT foreign, relative to England?

They're other countries, that's what that word means.

You really don't understand the distinction between treating mainland Europe as one menacing block as opposed to treating it as a collection of entities? You really can't figure out that's what Angua meant? If you can't, well then now you know.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:29 pm UTC

The addition of "menacing" is not the only possible interpretation, I think.

It's entirely normal for folks in the US to mention blocs of countries like "Europe", "Eastern Europe", or "Africa". It doesn't necessarily imply fear or hatred.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Zohar » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:44 pm UTC

Of course it doesn't. But there's context involved, in both who's talking (a country in Europe) and what they're talking about. Both aspects have been explained and elaborated on. You so often post comments that are irrelevant, obvious, and seem designed at distancing the discussion away from the relevant topic and towards semantics. You're free to post whatever you want, of course, but it doesn't lead to anything productive, and it doesn't really promote discussion. You might want to open a thread for "pedantic comments about stuff in N&A" if this is the type of discourse you enjoy.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:45 pm UTC

Angua wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Angua wrote:Then there's not point in bringing it up??

As a response to elasto's claim that objections to the EU's power must be a matter of xenophobia.

As already stated it is not relevant to to situation at hand therefore makes no sense bringing it up.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the situation at hand." It's relevant as a response to the claim that the only reason people in one country would not want people in some other country or group of countries to have control over the first country is xenophobic mistrust of the people in the other countries. There's no need for Lucrece's example to be "equivalent" (whatever that means) to the UK for it to undermine the absurdly broad premise to which elasto was appealing.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:02 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Of course it doesn't. But there's context involved, in both who's talking (a country in Europe) and what they're talking about. Both aspects have been explained and elaborated on. You so often post comments that are irrelevant, obvious, and seem designed at distancing the discussion away from the relevant topic and towards semantics. You're free to post whatever you want, of course, but it doesn't lead to anything productive, and it doesn't really promote discussion. You might want to open a thread for "pedantic comments about stuff in N&A" if this is the type of discourse you enjoy.


Semantics matter. By layering on subjective words, you frame the discussion in a certain light. Adding descriptors such as "menacing" to a viewpoint is obviously attempting to show the holder negatively. You're welcome to justify that such a viewpoint applies generally, if you like, but getting annoyed that someone questioned you doesn't support anything.

This conversation tree stems from if opposition is necessarily xenophobic. With Angua and Elasto arguing that it must be(and gmalivuk arguing the slightly weaker, but still pretty strong "most"), and TGB arguing that it could be, but need not be. I'm merely participating in this, taking TGB's perspective. This isn't a diversion from the topic, it's something a fair number of people have talked about.

It seems as if the "Remain" crowd is very interested in tarring the "Leave" crowd as hateful, xenophobic people, but doesn't seem very interested in justifying these accusations. This, from my external viewpoint, looks a bit like sour grapes. They have just a touch of motivation to display their opposition poorly.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Zohar » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:12 pm UTC

Nothing about what you said is wrong, but nothing about it is relevant. Your comment about "all other countries are foreign to any specific country" doesn't add a layer of distinction to the debate, and it's clear to everyone what was meant. There's disagreement on whether that claim is accurate or not, but pretty much everyone knows what it means. Anyway, I'm definitely not going to get into a semantic argument with you, since (as I have mentioned), I find it completely unnecessary in this case.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:51 pm UTC

Claims are valid or not depending on their support. If someone offers a defense that they treat them as "foreign", and thus, must be xenophobic, clearly...that's not a very strong claim. Or they're using non traditional definitions of words. The fact that they are being described collectively is not sufficient to demonstrate that xenophobia is necessary. You STILL haven't shown why these words must refer to xenophobia, only repeated an assertion that they do.

The fact that people use similar language all the time in a non-xenophobic context is a pretty straightforward counter-example.

I'm not sure precisely what other form of argument you expect. Perhaps you're simply put out that there's any argument at all?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Zohar » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:01 pm UTC

I never claimed anything about what's xenophobic or not, so of course I won't try to explain it.
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