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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:16 pm UTC
by Tyndmyr
Well, that's what that conversational thread is discussing. If you're not interested in that, cool. Nobody's making you discuss it.

However, looking back over the thread you joined, I have very little idea of what you hope to get out of this. Nor of precisely how you see this discussion as pedantic and off topic, but not your own diversion. It's a bit baffling.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:24 pm UTC
by Angua
Sigh. Again we are specifically talking about the context of Britain with respect to the EU. We are not talking about the US making puppet governments or Anguilla breaking free from St Kitts and Nevis. We are talking about a specific situation. Derailing the discussion away from the xenophobia at the route of this specific situation is not helpful.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:26 pm UTC
by Tyndmyr
Those are simply counterexamples to rebut a specific point. They are not a topic change.

People have differing interests from a given group all the time, and choose not to partake in that group without it being labeled xenophobia.

Why, in this particular instance, can there be no other explanation?

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:32 pm UTC
by TheGrammarBolshevik
Angua wrote:Sigh.

Look, if you want to discuss this without the constant asides and accusations of bad faith, I'll be around.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:40 pm UTC
by cphite
PeteP wrote:Makes it really easy to see why a lot of those "leave" folks voted the way they did.

You are proposing they voted leave because they expect politicians to get out of it someway should they win? That is quite a bold claim! Do you have support for it?[/quote]

Not even remotely. That's actually kind of a silly thing to suggest...

What I am proposing is that a lot of them are angry because they don't believe the people they elected to represent them, are actually representing them. A lot of them don't believe that the EU has their interests in mind, or the interests of their country in mind. A lot of them are upset by the fact that, when they express legitimate concerns about immigration for example, they're dismissed as racists and xenophobes and ultimately ignored. They're upset by what they see as too much power over their lives being handed to people in a central government that neither knows them nor cares to know them.

As an aside, I believe this same thing explains how in USA we have so many people supporting someone as awful as Trump. Sure, some people may like him; and some may even like what he's proposing... but I think a lot of people are just enticed by the notion of having someone other than the long list of horrible people who keep getting into power.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:28 pm UTC
by Angua
As far as I can see, elasto made the claim that the main reason for this campaign was xenophobia. Then lucrece went on a tangent about situations where one nation might not like another nation interfering in their politics using the US as an example which doesn't correlate with this situation.

We're basically talking about someone being murdered by a serial killer and other people jumping in on whether killing someone in a war as part of the military ever justified. (Yes I know this is hyperbole and I am not comparing brexit to being murdered, I am comparing two tangential arguments).

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:42 pm UTC
by Diemo
Wlso, immigrants are on the whole beneficial to the UK. So when someone in the UK is anti-immigration, that is an immediate red flag for racism.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:55 pm UTC
by Lucrece
Angua wrote:Sigh. Again we are specifically talking about the context of Britain with respect to the EU. We are not talking about the US making puppet governments or Anguilla breaking free from St Kitts and Nevis. We are talking about a specific situation. Derailing the discussion away from the xenophobia at the route of this specific situation is not helpful.



Here you go again stating that there's xenophobia at the root of a majority vote's decision, as if you were the the barometer of a nation's values and had reliable access to their collective minds to make the bold claim to know their motives just because you read a couple of articles and tweets from some progressive pundit.

By all means continue dismissing electoral decisions you don't agree with as impure/malicious and ignorant. You won't be the first partisan to do so.

When you have reputable data showing that the vast majority of people voted to leave because of hatred of foreigners, feel free to share it.

You people are stretching the definitions of words so absurdly just to discredit the opposing side. Why bother arguing from figures when you can just poison the well and call anyone who doesn't vote your way a racist or xenophobe, labels associated with such stigma as one of the most reviled social evils in typical fashion of character assassination.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:51 pm UTC
by Adacore
I don't think it's as simple as "people voted leave because of xenophobia". My impression is that immigration was a major reason people voted to leave, but this was not primarily because of racism, but because they were told by a substantial portion of the media that the main reason for their economic hardships was that jobs that should be available to them were being taken by immigrants. I think there is an element of xenophobia to this, but it's telling that the majority of people that voted to leave live in areas which actually have very few immigrants - they're making this decision based not on personal experiences with immigrant populations, but instead on how immigration is portrayed to them through the media.

Also, immigration was only the second biggest factor for most leave voters, according to the polling. The main reason cited was that people thought that "decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK". This line of argument seems fairly ludicrous to me - should we devolve to independent city-states, or perhaps full anarchy? But apparently it resonates with a lot of people. Incidentally, I think the geographic voting pattern here reflects the fact that the British conservatives and media have blamed Brussels for many of the perceived problems in England and Wales, whereas in Scotland these problems have been blamed not on Brussels, but on London, hence Scots with the attitude of "our local issues should be governed locally" tend to be anti-Westminster rather than anti-EU.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:13 am UTC
by LaserGuy
Adacore wrote:I don't think it's as simple as "people voted leave because of xenophobia". My impression is that immigration was a major reason people voted to leave, but this was not primarily because of racism, but because they were told by a substantial portion of the media that the main reason for their economic hardships was that jobs that should be available to them were being taken by immigrants. I think there is an element of xenophobia to this, but it's telling that the majority of people that voted to leave live in areas which actually have very few immigrants - they're making this decision based not on personal experiences with immigrant populations, but instead on how immigration is portrayed to them through the media.


The UK also doesn't have a particularly high immigration rate or large immigrant population by international standards.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:23 am UTC
by TheGrammarBolshevik
Angua wrote:As far as I can see, elasto made the claim that the main reason for this campaign was xenophobia.

They didn't just make this claim, but also supported it with the following line of reasoning:

elasto wrote:I only really know of two core reasons for voting Leave.

The first is to reduce immigration. The second is to reduce the power the EU has over us. Both of those involve a fear of foreigners somehow messing up (or already having messed up) what otherwise would be fine - in the first case our public services, and, the in the second, our legislation.

Now, it's such an everyday form of xenophobia noone would bat at eyelid at the correctness of it, but it's misguided none-the-less.

[...]

In the second case, it's not really the case that a German voter has different 'core values' than a British one, so its actually not 'dangerous' that a German voter has the same say in who is elected and appointed into the EU halls of power as a Brit. And, in any case, UK voters, through their democratically elected UK representatives, have a veto on all important changes. So, again, it's an unfounded fear over the power and reach foreigners have.

What seems to be put forward here is that UK voters couldn't have any reason for not wanting to cede legislative power to the member states of the EU except for xenophobia toward those member states. This is how Lucrece read it, anyway:

Lucrece wrote:Are we seriously going to reduce reluctance to allow foreign nations to dictate policy to a sovereign nation as xenophobia?

And then Lucrece goes on (1) to say that you can have non-xenophobic reasons for worrying about people from other countries voting against your country's interests and (2) to give an example where this is perfectly reasonable and non-xenophobic.

Now, there's certainly room to discuss whether elasto's underlying point can be modified to answer Lucrece's criticism, and so on. That's a discussion. But coming out of the game accusing people of being "intentionally obtuse," or insisting that we can't draw analogies to anything outside the UK since the discussion is about the UK, doesn't seem like a way of moving that discussion forward.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:39 am UTC
by CorruptUser
It's not entirely racist/xenophobic to be upset that your country has to absorb hundreds of thousands of unskilled workers in a world that is increasingly being automated. It's easy enough to say "oh we should take in more refugees from Africa and the Mideast" when it isn't your meager paycheck that's going to get cut.

And that's not getting into the backlash from things like Rotherham.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:05 am UTC
by sardia
CorruptUser wrote:It's not entirely racist/xenophobic to be upset that your country has to absorb hundreds of thousands of unskilled workers in a world that is increasingly being automated. It's easy enough to say "oh we should take in more refugees from Africa and the Mideast" when it isn't your meager paycheck that's going to get cut.

And that's not getting into the backlash from things like Rotherham.

And what if there is a racial disparity between who is upset about immigration/globalization/etc etc. There are poor people with meager paychecks that aren't white, and they support immigration the most. The only reason for this racial disparity is that rich people fanned the flames of otherness in order to protect their own necks. The rich are too cheap to support the rest of us, so they give something free, the luxury of racial superiority over 'other' poor people that don't look like them.
Btw, "absorb hundreds of thousands of unskilled worker" is pretty loaded term, were you quoting or do you believe this?
TLDR Immigration fears like your post is really an inequality problem in disguise.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:12 am UTC
by CorruptUser
Speaking with family friends that live in Britain. Technically they are immigrants there too, being WASPs from New England...

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:50 am UTC
by Lucrece
sardia wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:It's not entirely racist/xenophobic to be upset that your country has to absorb hundreds of thousands of unskilled workers in a world that is increasingly being automated. It's easy enough to say "oh we should take in more refugees from Africa and the Mideast" when it isn't your meager paycheck that's going to get cut.

And that's not getting into the backlash from things like Rotherham.

And what if there is a racial disparity between who is upset about immigration/globalization/etc etc. There are poor people with meager paychecks that aren't white, and they support immigration the most. The only reason for this racial disparity is that rich people fanned the flames of otherness in order to protect their own necks. The rich are too cheap to support the rest of us, so they give something free, the luxury of racial superiority over 'other' poor people that don't look like them.
Btw, "absorb hundreds of thousands of unskilled worker" is pretty loaded term, were you quoting or do you believe this?
TLDR Immigration fears like your post is really an inequality problem in disguise.



There's always this pitiful conspiracy theory about the hive mind that are rich people orchestrating the behavior of poor, stupid humans who are clearly unable to know better because if they knew better, they'd agree with ME.

I'm not even talking about objections to the EU regarding open borders. I'm talking the annoyance of some people at the fact that some EU committee they cannot punish through elections or challenge in any way will make policy decisions for them without truly having their best interests in mind.

Even if you draw a comparison with the US, what benefits Vermont is clearly not what benefits Kentucky, and a large part of the gridlock in current US politics is due to the conflicting interests of states that compared in size to Europe could be their own nations.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:56 am UTC
by CorruptUser
Except both Kentucky and Vermont are pro-gun and anti-big government. I get what you are saying, but choose states with less in common.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:49 am UTC
by BattleMoose
This idea that the majority of UK voters are somehow racist or xenophobic is doing my head in. You need not be racist to oppose uncontrolled immigration. High levels of immigration often cause conflict, violence and on occasion even war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uitlander

Part of the difficulty here, is because of the uncontrolled nature of the immigration, a lot of the statistics are even missing. But lets consider Boston (The one in the UK). These are two articles that I found and am drawing heavily on. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu- ... m-36258541
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu- ... m-36616747

Boston in south Lincolnshire recorded the highest leave vote in the UK, with 75.6% backing Brexit.


Some statistics:

The 2011 census found that around 13% of the town was born elsewhere in the EU - largely East European migrants who arrived after 2004.


The last census in 2011 showed the population increased by 15.9% between 2001 and 2011 - twice the national rate


The 2011 census showed that the district had the largest number of non-British EU passport holders outside of London.


Basically a lot of immigration happened here.

But everyone knows that immigration is good for the economy! Unemployment in the town is well below the national average - 4.4% of economically active people, as against 5.2% nationally. The people of Boston must be overwhelmingly stupid racists to vote for a Brexit, at the highest rate within the UK!

Or we could actually examine the economic well being of the people actually living in Boston.

You can see that in the local pay statistics. Boston has always been a low-pay town. But it is now an exceptionally low-paid place.
The average hourly wage nationally is £13.33. Across the East Midlands, it is £12.26. In Boston, it is £9.13. On a weekly basis, full-time earnings are more than £100 a week less than the national average.


- and the housing supply has simply not kept up with demand. Local rents in Boston are actually much higher than in Nottingham despite wages being lower. This is a major problem within the town and has become a major cause of frustration


From what I can tell, unskilled people are having a very hard time competing with unskilled labour from the rest of the EU and are suffering economically as a result. It may come to pass that their lot in life might become worse with a BREXIT. But consider, their economic situation has worsened in recent years, and everyone keeps yelling at them that immigration is good for the economy and even though its fucking them over they somehow must just, deal with it. Staying in the EU, their situation will continue to get worse. According to remain, Brexit will make their situation worse. It really shouldn't come as a surprise that a location like this voted so much in favour of leave.

But hey, they are just racist xenophobes... >.<

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:51 am UTC
by Lucrece
CorruptUser wrote:Except both Kentucky and Vermont are pro-gun and anti-big government. I get what you are saying, but choose states with less in common.



Yeah, but from a social perspective, if you care about things like minimum wage policy, abortion, and gay marriage, each member of that state would sometimes secretly wish the other would secede or be sold off to some other country.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:26 am UTC
by Angua
I'm sure that not everyone has to have a massive hatred of everything foreign to be xenophobic, just as someone doesn't have to hate all POC to be racist. When you have a campaign running posters like:
Image
Image
with a party who campaigned for EU elections (that undemocratic institution we apparently have no control over) with posters like:
Image
it's hard ignore that xenophobia is playing a part.
Battlemoose - it would be interesting to see if these high levels of immigration causing conflict do so because people are racist, rather than just being an inevitable thing as you seem to present it. You say that people kept telling them that immigration was making their lives better, I assure you that there were many people telling them that immigration has been making our lives worse, from the overt (UKIP) to the more covert (parliament passing laws leading to people not being able to renew visas for education, or wanting to bring in needing to have a salary of >£35000 to stay on the grounds that it's 'controlling immigration). We do not have lacking in the narrative that immigration is bad for our country.

Hate crime is up by 57%. I know people who've been speaking to their children in Spanish at a checkout counter, and told that they'll have to be leaving soon.

#notallbrexiters

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:58 am UTC
by Echo244
Love the asterisk in that last poster. Might as well be "Probably 75% of our laws are made in Brussels".

If I have time later I'll also dig out, for context, the "Go Home" vans that Theresa May (candidate for next PM!) had driving round various neighbourhoods, as a government initiative.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:36 am UTC
by Diadem
I always wonder how they complain about the EU in Belgium.

"75% of our laws are now made in Brussels!"
"Really? Where are the other 25% made?"
"Eh.."

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:37 am UTC
by Angua
“It was taking an American-style media approach,” said Banks. “What they said early on was ‘facts don’t work’ and that’s it. The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”

One video on the Leave.EU Facebook page, viewed 1.6m times, begins: “Are you concerned about the amount of crime committed in the UK by foreign criminals?” before ending with the message: “Isn’t it time to take back control.”

“The Conservatives are now trying to rewrite the campaign that immigration wasn’t important, but boy was immigration important,” Banks said. “The first thing we did was poll everybody and we found that if immigration wasn’t the issue, the issue was schools or education, proxies for immigration. It was the number one issue by a country mile.”

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/leave-donor-plans-new-party-to-replace-ukip-without-farage?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:57 am UTC
by Mutex
It'll be funny if we end up accepting freedom of movement to retain access to the single market. Like all the EU leaders are insisting we'll have to, and Norway and Switzerland had to. I wonder which thing Boris cares about more, the single market or restricting EU migration. Guess we'll find out!

EDIT: Or maybe not since Boris just dropped out of the Tory leadership race. What the. That took me by surprise.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:00 am UTC
by morriswalters
Angua wrote:“It was taking an American-style media approach,” said Banks. “What they said early on was ‘facts don’t work’ and that’s it. The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”
I could be picky and say it isn't a particularly American approach. However I won't. Wait, yes I will. Someone on the Continent used something called the big lie pretty effectively. However in the morning no matter why the opposition did what they did, they did it. If they are racist and don't like foreigners, they aren't likely to change. You'll still be living with them tomorrow. Get used to it and get ready for the next fight. And don't elect leaders that will push referendums instead of providing leadership. Me I'm counting on Trump as President. That way I won't be disappointed on election day no matter the outcome.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:02 am UTC
by HES
Breaking: Boris is not running for PM.

So what was the fucking point of all this.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:04 am UTC
by Echo244
WOW.

OK, I credit Johnson with just a little more intelligence, to avoid this poisoned chalice. Let's see what happens to all the stop-Boris candidates now...

(I suspect Boris to be angling for next time round, after somebody else has to deal with all the consequences of Brexit, and then he can come in banging a nationalism drum and promising to make Britain Great again)

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:06 am UTC
by BattleMoose
Angua wrote:#notallbrexiters


That's pretty much the point I was trying to put across.

Its usually always about the money. How does immigration effect my economic situation? et cetera. It's a much more convincing explanation for how the majority of a country voted than racism.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:09 am UTC
by Mutex
morriswalters wrote:
Angua wrote:“It was taking an American-style media approach,” said Banks. “What they said early on was ‘facts don’t work’ and that’s it. The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”
I could be picky and say it isn't a particularly American approach. However I won't. Wait, yes I will. Someone on the Continent used something called the big lie pretty effectively. However in the morning no matter why the opposition did what they did, they did it. If they are racist and don't like foreigners, they aren't likely to change. You'll still be living with them tomorrow. Get used to it and get ready for the next fight. And don't elect leaders that will push referendums instead of providing leadership. Me I'm counting on Trump as President. That way I won't be disappointed on election day no matter the outcome.


There's a lot that's terrible about what he said. Don't focus on the American bit.

Echo244 wrote:WOW.

OK, I credit Johnson with just a little more intelligence, to avoid this poisoned chalice. Let's see what happens to all the stop-Boris candidates now...

(I suspect Boris to be angling for next time round, after somebody else has to deal with all the consequences of Brexit, and then he can come in banging a nationalism drum and promising to make Britain Great again)


Yes, also he's realised that since he was the major force for a referendum result that has deeply divided the country there's no way he could be an effective leader.

So I guess this means May will be the next leader. I don't see Gove clinching it, jeez I hope not anyway. Stephen Crabb is much less known and seems to have fewer MPs behind him.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:25 am UTC
by Echo244
Mutex wrote:Yes, also he's realised that since he was the major force for a referendum result that has deeply divided the country there's no way he could be an effective leader.

So I guess this means May will be the next leader. I don't see Gove clinching it, jeez I hope not anyway. Stephen Crabb is much less known and seems to have fewer MPs behind him.


Crabb is apparently struggling already with some anti-gay-marriage comments in the past. Fox has nothing, he's just opportunistically pushing the right-wing angle for whatever leverage he can get. Gove has the Free Schools nonsense bogging him down. All the people on BBC Breakfast today were talking about May or Boris, nobody else in the picture. Now Boris is out of that, so I expect Theresa May to be more or less ceremonially installed, along with buckets of Thatcherite imagery. So our likely "Brexit government" leader will have campaigned - albeit less than half-heartedly - for Remain.

<Applauds the Tories at a glacial pace>

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:32 am UTC
by Mutex
Liam Fox comes with a lot of baggage from what I remember, what was that scandal he was involved in, didn't he basically let one of his friends tag along with him to very high level meetings he definitely shouldn't have been privy to? Not exactly leader-like judgement there. I really hope Gove and Fox are dead in the water.

From what Gove said it seems be only joined the leadership race because he didn't think Boris was up to the challenge. I wonder if that means he can drop out now, or if he feels he should stay in and represent the Brexiters, although Fox is in the race so perhaps not.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:56 am UTC
by Echo244
I suspect Gove is in the race because he (or possibly his wife, Sarah Vine, whose email to her husband accidentally went to a member of the public who promptly forwarded it to Sky News) bet the house on Boris only to find Boris wasn't in the race. So he's in the running as a lead Brexiter, trying to pick up former Boris voters, but in practice has all the appeal to the public of a motorway covered in slugs. His wife may scheme and roll the dice but Gove himself will probably be trying to lose to May in a statesmanlike manner, then get a cushy job while talking up unity.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:04 pm UTC
by Soupspoon
BattleMoose wrote:Part of the difficulty here, is because of the uncontrolled nature of the immigration, a lot of the statistics are even missing.
Not sure if this relates to what you mean (and if I've chosen the wrong subset episode, there's links to the otjers and full omnibus collection), but this might be useful listening. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0788bcb

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:10 pm UTC
by Mutex
I don't think BBC shows, even radio programmes are available outside the UK.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:12 pm UTC
by Diadem
Echo244 wrote:I suspect Gove is in the race because he (or possibly his wife, Sarah Vine, whose email to her husband accidentally went to a member of the public who promptly forwarded it to Sky News) bet the house on Boris only to find Boris wasn't in the race. So he's in the running as a lead Brexiter, trying to pick up former Boris voters, but in practice has all the appeal to the public of a motorway covered in slugs. His wife may scheme and roll the dice but Gove himself will probably be trying to lose to May in a statesmanlike manner, then get a cushy job while talking up unity.

Wait, that can't be right. The BBC is writing that Boris dropped out because Gove backstabbed him.

So Boris isn't running because Gove is, and Gove is running because Boris isn't? Those can't both be true.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:14 pm UTC
by Mutex
Unless they decided between them that out of the two of them, Gove should be the one that runs. Quite how they came to that conclusion I can't imagine.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:17 pm UTC
by Echo244
From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-36570120 regarding Boris:

A source close to Boris wrote:"He will fight to ensure that the message that is heard is that it's not business as usual; that the people's view is heard, honoured and implemented so that the UK can grow, and reap the benefits of the decision that people have made.


Sounds like he wants to be pushing his own positions without having to implement them and take the blame for the consequences. Very much getting a wine-taster for the poisoned chalice of the next PM-ship.

Meanwhile, Angela Eagle *won't* announce that she's challenging Corbyn at 3pm today, which was announced in the pre-news tradition yesterday. I suspect that Momentum demonstrations and a letter from her own constituency, strongly urging her to back Corbyn, might have had a role in things. God knows where Labour go from here, the MPs have talked themselves into a hole with all this "But with that many of us, he *must* go!" narrative that was intended to push Corbyn out before there was any backlash from the unions or membership, leaving them with no choice in the matter.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:22 pm UTC
by Soupspoon
Mutex wrote:I don't think BBC shows, even radio programmes are available outside the UK.
I thought not, but someone else persuaded me otherwise.

However, if it comes to that, that show podcasts all its episodes (from about a handul of years ago), whether Radio 4 (usually the full UK weekly half-hours) or World Service (shorter snippets, already broadcast to the world at large), so you should be able chase down the podcast feed, off of that link, and download the files straight. (May I also suggest The Infinite Monkey Cage, for your podcasting pleasure? I'm sure xkcdists would enjoy these, if they don't know of them already.)

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:22 pm UTC
by Echo244
Diadem wrote:
Echo244 wrote:I suspect Gove is in the race because he (or possibly his wife, Sarah Vine, whose email to her husband accidentally went to a member of the public who promptly forwarded it to Sky News) bet the house on Boris only to find Boris wasn't in the race. So he's in the running as a lead Brexiter, trying to pick up former Boris voters, but in practice has all the appeal to the public of a motorway covered in slugs. His wife may scheme and roll the dice but Gove himself will probably be trying to lose to May in a statesmanlike manner, then get a cushy job while talking up unity.

Wait, that can't be right. The BBC is writing that Boris dropped out because Gove backstabbed him.

So Boris isn't running because Gove is, and Gove is running because Boris isn't? Those can't both be true.


Sorry, just catching up with this at lunchtime; haven't seen anything about Gove stabbing Boris. Sarah Vine's email yesterday was very much about Gove getting "assurances" from Boris, not stabbing him, hence my chain of logic. There were mentions of Murdoch and Dacre in said email, who hate Boris but like Gove, so overtones of threats, but I doubt Gove has enough weight to use their influence to "stab" Boris effectively.

Don't understand the stabbing comment, tbh. Link?

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:23 pm UTC
by Soupspoon
Mutex wrote:Unless they decided between them that out of the two of them, Gove should be the one that runs. Quite how they came to that conclusion I can't imagine.
Shades of Blair/Brown? Not suggesting direct equivalences, by any means, but there's precedence.

Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:25 pm UTC
by Xenomortis
There's a lot of surprise at Gove's move.
Gove has long said "I've no plans to become PM", but that was when Cameron was at the helm, someone I doubt he would ever stand a chance against.
But perhaps he smells a chance now, May is probably favoured among Conservatives, but he may still feel he can ride the Leave wave.

Or perhaps, a deal between him and Boris was struck. We may never know.

Edit:
Actually, I think a deal unlikely. Gove's statement announcing his bid included a put down of Boris Johnson.
Perhaps he believes Boris would aim for a relationship with the EU close to the status-quo (i.e. free movement of people), which he himself may not want.