British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Echo244 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:28 pm UTC

Echo244 wrote:Don't understand the stabbing comment, tbh. Link?


Ugh, further down my own link.

Hmmmm. Suspect that Gove got no such assurances from Johnson, and... well, I still don't think he's got much of a chance. Maybe threw his hat in the ring to spite Boris and split his vote? Dunno. Something a bit fishy going on there.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:48 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Except both Kentucky and Vermont are pro-gun and anti-big government. I get what you are saying, but choose states with less in common.



Yeah, but from a social perspective, if you care about things like minimum wage policy, abortion, and gay marriage, each member of that state would sometimes secretly wish the other would secede or be sold off to some other country.


Nothing there that would be something Vermont would actually want to secede over; abortion is already legal as is gay marriage (and it was legal in many states before the Federal government said it was), and the states can set their own minimum wage. Kentucky may be more upset, since they may want to abort gays for cheap.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Xenomortis » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:58 pm UTC

Echo244 wrote:Hmmmm. Suspect that Gove got no such assurances from Johnson, and... well, I still don't think he's got much of a chance. Maybe threw his hat in the ring to spite Boris and split his vote? Dunno. Something a bit fishy going on there.

Vote splitting isn't really a concern - ballots for the party leadership are conducted among Tory MPs, with the lowest ranked candidate being eliminated after each round.
When there are only two left, the names are put to the wider Conservative Party (or at least, those who were members before the ballots started).
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:39 pm UTC

cphite wrote:What I am proposing is that a lot of them are angry because they don't believe the people they elected to represent them, are actually representing them. A lot of them don't believe that the EU has their interests in mind, or the interests of their country in mind. A lot of them are upset by the fact that, when they express legitimate concerns about immigration for example, they're dismissed as racists and xenophobes and ultimately ignored. They're upset by what they see as too much power over their lives being handed to people in a central government that neither knows them nor cares to know them.

As an aside, I believe this same thing explains how in USA we have so many people supporting someone as awful as Trump. Sure, some people may like him; and some may even like what he's proposing... but I think a lot of people are just enticed by the notion of having someone other than the long list of horrible people who keep getting into power.


I agree. I don't think it's so much that people *actually* like Trump, as that they're pleased to see the folks they generally dislike getting some comeuppance. It's the nature of an anti-establishment drive.

Diemo wrote:Wlso, immigrants are on the whole beneficial to the UK. So when someone in the UK is anti-immigration, that is an immediate red flag for racism.


Immigrants are, on the whole, beneficial to the US too. That doesn't mean I assume everyone who is anti-immigration is racist. For instance, they may simply not be aware of that. A *lot* of people do not comprehensively understand economics, and default towards some sort of zero sum view, where whatever the immigrant gets must be lessening what they get. It isn't necessarily race based.

It's also not necessarily entirely wrong. Just because immigration is good for the country at large doesn't mean it's good for everyone in that country. It's likely that at least some people ended up worse off. And the media *does* love to fixate on exceptionally negative outcomes. So, what someone sees may be highlighting exactly that, and people will naturally suspect that these will become more frequent if immigration becomes much greater. One can of course blame the media for portraying things badly, but that's different from saying that the viewers are racist.

CorruptUser wrote:Except both Kentucky and Vermont are pro-gun and anti-big government. I get what you are saying, but choose states with less in common.


Maryland and West Virginia should suffice. Despite being neighboring states, they have significantly different interests. It's *somewhat* complicated in that the interests of a given area follow lines that are not state lines, exactly(and thus, western MD is essentially identical to WV, but it's utterly irrelevant in any political sense).

In any case, regardless of which two you pick, it's certainly obvious that US states definitely have divided interests relatively frequently, given our high rate of partisanship, and just how few of our states are actually swing states. If I had a dollar for every time I heard a coastal Democrat dismissively refer to the Midwest as "flyover country" or for a Midwestern Republican to half wish for California to "get the big one and fall off the face of the earth", I'd be pretty well off, I think.

People seem to be pretty good at dividing themselves even when race isn't present.

I'm following the discussion of individual candidates, but don't really know the individuals involved well enough to add much to that conversation, I think. I do enjoy the differences between the US system and ya'lls, though. The idea that someone here would turn down power merely because it would be divisive, and make him an ineffective leader is...strange, I think. It makes sense in context, but it would probably not happen in the US.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:06 pm UTC

There was an inquiry into allegations of anti-semitism in the Labour party, and the findings of the report were launched today. At the launch, this happened.

http://www.ruthsmeeth.org.uk/statement_ ... rti_report

"This morning, at the launch of the Chakrabarti Inquiry into antisemitism, I was verbally attacked by a Momentum activist and Jeremy Corbyn supporter who used traditional antisemitic slurs to attack me for being part of a 'media conspiracy'. It is beyond belief that someone could come to the launch of a report on antisemitism in the Labour Party and espouse such vile conspiracy theories about Jewish people, which were ironically highlighted as such in Ms Chakrabarti's report, while the leader of my own party stood by and did absolutely nothing."

"People like this have no place in our party or our movement and must be opposed. Until today I had made no public comment about Jeremy’s ability to lead our party, but the fact that he failed to intervene is final proof for me that he is unfit to lead, and that a Labour Party under his stewardship cannot be a safe space for British Jews. I have written to the General Secretary of the Labour Party and the Chair of the Parliamentary Labour Party to formally complain about this morning’s events."

"No-one from the Leader’s office has contacted me since the event, which is itself a catastrophic failure of leadership. I call on Jeremy Corbyn to resign immediately and make way for someone with the backbone to confront racism and antisemitism in our party and in the country."


Corbyn supporters have gone from a bit idealistic to off-the-scale racist conspiracy nutjobs, it seems.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Lazar » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:12 pm UTC

I'm sure she misunderstood. It doesn't count as anti-Semitism as long as you call it a conspiracy of "filthy Zios" rather than Jews. /s
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:17 pm UTC

I really don't know what's going to happen with the Labour party. Where do they go from here? Even if they oust Corbyn, they'll just lose a huge amount of support from their members. Assuming his supporters actually represent a large amount of the electorate.

What are the odds the party splits into two and the moderate side joins with the Lib Dems? It would be nice to have a strong, socially liberal and progressive, economically competent centrist party. Even some Conservative MPs might join that.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Echo244 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:21 pm UTC

I think it's fair to conclude that that Momentum activist was a nutjob, rather than that all are.

Attacking Corbyn on that point is... well, yes, he should have stamped down, fast and hard, on any anti-semitism. I'd like to know what he did say about the Chakrabarti Inquiry. And what he's going to do about this. Expecting him to have acted since this morning, with other items on his agenda, is unfair, and this reads like it's using this issue to attack him, rather than addressing this serious issue in isolation.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Echo244 » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:33 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:I really don't know what's going to happen with the Labour party. Where do they go from here? Even if they oust Corbyn, they'll just lose a huge amount of support from their members. Assuming his supporters actually represent a large amount of the electorate.

What are the odds the party splits into two and the moderate side joins with the Lib Dems? It would be nice to have a strong, socially liberal and progressive, economically competent centrist party. Even some Conservative MPs might join that.


Corbyn's supporters, as I understand it, aren't necessarily a large amount of the electorate, but they *are* the more passionate left-wing activists who can be relied upon to - cheaply - do a lot of the ground-work of campaigning. It's a reasonable wodge of votes that will be lost, but more importantly, a lot of volunteer time. The Tories not having such a ground-base of support is what led them into legal trouble, bussing volunteers around target constituencies and not declaring the expenses. And it's still not clear that the disillusioned members will be the ones to go, rather than MPs.

As for the party splitting... maybe, but it would be a large block of MPs versus a large, active block of people who elected them, fighting over donors and union support... it'd be a bloody mess, frankly, and I think the MPs would be insane to force that on a large scale. Plus the Lib Dems got torn apart in the last election, I wouldn't see them as a safe harbour. The "Diet Labour" party, stealing as many donors and Union backers and constituency parties and resources as they can, is a more likely scenario - that way, the MPs can try and claim continuity, rather than standing as Lib Dem next time and automatically losing anyone who "just voted Labour".
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:42 pm UTC

The Lib Dems have recovered a lot of members since announcing themselves to be pro-EU. They actually have more members now than before they went into coalition with the Tories, when they were at their height. It would be a bloody mess though, and they'd have to rebrand the party if they joined up that many Labour MPs. "Laboural Democrats" has a ring to it.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Lucrece » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:26 pm UTC

Angua wrote:I'm sure that not everyone has to have a massive hatred of everything foreign to be xenophobic, just as someone doesn't have to hate all POC to be racist. When you have a campaign running posters like:
Image
Image
with a party who campaigned for EU elections (that undemocratic institution we apparently have no control over) with posters like:
Image
it's hard ignore that xenophobia is playing a part.
Battlemoose - it would be interesting to see if these high levels of immigration causing conflict do so because people are racist, rather than just being an inevitable thing as you seem to present it. You say that people kept telling them that immigration was making their lives better, I assure you that there were many people telling them that immigration has been making our lives worse, from the overt (UKIP) to the more covert (parliament passing laws leading to people not being able to renew visas for education, or wanting to bring in needing to have a salary of >£35000 to stay on the grounds that it's 'controlling immigration). We do not have lacking in the narrative that immigration is bad for our country.

Hate crime is up by 57%. I know people who've been speaking to their children in Spanish at a checkout counter, and told that they'll have to be leaving soon.

#notallbrexiters


So you are using a handful of cherrypicked campaign posters to divine the actual motives of the majority of Leave voters.

It's sort of like assuming that because you see a couple of anti-Semitic Muslims complaining about Jews in Israel robbing Palestinian lands, then suddenly the entire Israel/Palestine debate must be about the hatred of Jews, and not legitimate questions about borders and human rights infringement. Easy to vilify a side of a political debate by picking out the caricatures.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Zohar » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:33 pm UTC

I wouldn't say that's a fair analogy. There's a difference between what a random group of people chooses to discuss and the official message used by the party leading one side of the campaign. If the "vote leave" campaign is directed by a specific message, it's not unreasonable to expect most people who agree with that position also support that message.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby sardia » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:34 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Lucrece wrote:
Angua wrote:I'm sure that not everyone has to have a massive hatred of everything foreign to be xenophobic, just as someone doesn't have to hate all POC to be racist. When you have a campaign running posters like:
Image
Image
with a party who campaigned for EU elections (that undemocratic institution we apparently have no control over) with posters like:
Image
it's hard ignore that xenophobia is playing a part.
Battlemoose - it would be interesting to see if these high levels of immigration causing conflict do so because people are racist, rather than just being an inevitable thing as you seem to present it. You say that people kept telling them that immigration was making their lives better, I assure you that there were many people telling them that immigration has been making our lives worse, from the overt (UKIP) to the more covert (parliament passing laws leading to people not being able to renew visas for education, or wanting to bring in needing to have a salary of >£35000 to stay on the grounds that it's 'controlling immigration). We do not have lacking in the narrative that immigration is bad for our country.

Hate crime is up by 57%. I know people who've been speaking to their children in Spanish at a checkout counter, and told that they'll have to be leaving soon.

#notallbrexiters


So you are using a handful of cherrypicked campaign posters to divine the actual motives of the majority of Leave voters.

It's sort of like assuming that because you see a couple of anti-Semitic Muslims complaining about Jews in Israel robbing Palestinian lands, then suddenly the entire Israel/Palestine debate must be about the hatred of Jews, and not legitimate questions about borders and human rights infringement. Easy to vilify a side of a political debate by picking out the caricatures.

Is your standard of evidence a survey of people who admit they are racists?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:46 pm UTC

Quite, it's hard to gauge the number of people who are xenophobic when flat-out asking them if they're xenophobic is unlikely to get accurate results.

However, the leave campaign scored a significant surge in the polls after those above posters were rolled out. Maybe 10%.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Lucrece » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:02 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Spoiler:
Lucrece wrote:
Angua wrote:I'm sure that not everyone has to have a massive hatred of everything foreign to be xenophobic, just as someone doesn't have to hate all POC to be racist. When you have a campaign running posters like:
Image
Image
with a party who campaigned for EU elections (that undemocratic institution we apparently have no control over) with posters like:
Image
it's hard ignore that xenophobia is playing a part.
Battlemoose - it would be interesting to see if these high levels of immigration causing conflict do so because people are racist, rather than just being an inevitable thing as you seem to present it. You say that people kept telling them that immigration was making their lives better, I assure you that there were many people telling them that immigration has been making our lives worse, from the overt (UKIP) to the more covert (parliament passing laws leading to people not being able to renew visas for education, or wanting to bring in needing to have a salary of >£35000 to stay on the grounds that it's 'controlling immigration). We do not have lacking in the narrative that immigration is bad for our country.

Hate crime is up by 57%. I know people who've been speaking to their children in Spanish at a checkout counter, and told that they'll have to be leaving soon.

#notallbrexiters


So you are using a handful of cherrypicked campaign posters to divine the actual motives of the majority of Leave voters.

It's sort of like assuming that because you see a couple of anti-Semitic Muslims complaining about Jews in Israel robbing Palestinian lands, then suddenly the entire Israel/Palestine debate must be about the hatred of Jews, and not legitimate questions about borders and human rights infringement. Easy to vilify a side of a political debate by picking out the caricatures.

Is your standard of evidence a survey of people who admit they are racists?


My standard of evidence is a survey where the respondents give their many reasons for voting for a side of a debate instead of assuming that because some posters by some campaigners is representative of the whole.

Yeah, I think I'm being reasonable instead of assuming ill motives of people voting differently from me.

Mutex wrote:Quite, it's hard to gauge the number of people who are xenophobic when flat-out asking them if they're xenophobic is unlikely to get accurate results.


Maybe because it's a loaded question. As this thread shows, you can stretch the definition of xenophobic to anyone you want.

I mean, I could present you with a survey asking you if you consider yourself an asshole, and I doubt you'd get accurate results even though a number of other people would consider you as such given their varying standards for what constitutes an asshole. One person might consider you not holding the door for them to make you an asshole, while another person doesn't even pay mind to it.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby KrytenKoro » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:43 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:My standard of evidence is a survey where the respondents give their many reasons for voting for a side of a debate instead of assuming that because some posters by some campaigners is representative of the whole.

I think it's pretty disingenuous to wave it off as "some posters by some campaigners". These were centerpiece ads by the leaders of the campaign. They were the loudest voice in the campaign.

Maybe because it's a loaded question. As this thread shows, you can stretch the definition of xenophobic to anyone you want.

It's kind of a catch-22 to argue both that you have to look at everyone's individual reasons for why they voted to summarize why they voted, then to say that you can't rely on their own description because it's a loaded question.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Angua » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:13 pm UTC

If you think that those are just random posters by 'some' campaigners then you'd be greatly mistaken (as previously mentioned by other posters). I also quoted an interview with one of the lead minds behind part of the Leave campaign who said that immigration was the main issue in their polls and ran videos asking if people were tired of 'foreign criminals'. They didn't just pick the topic for those posters out of hte blue - actual research went into it.

Maybe you're the one who should brush up on more of what was actually going in the UK during the lead campaign, and who exactly was doing a lot of the campaigning.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Lucrece » Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:02 am UTC

Angua wrote:If you think that those are just random posters by 'some' campaigners then you'd be greatly mistaken (as previously mentioned by other posters). I also quoted an interview with one of the lead minds behind part of the Leave campaign who said that immigration was the main issue in their polls and ran videos asking if people were tired of 'foreign criminals'. They didn't just pick the topic for those posters out of hte blue - actual research went into it.

Maybe you're the one who should brush up on more of what was actually going in the UK during the lead campaign, and who exactly was doing a lot of the campaigning.



The "lead mind" of the Catholic Church (and supreme monarch, receptacle of God's message) holds that divorce is immoral and should not be practiced, that contraception is against the teachings of the Church, and that gay marriage is aberrant and homosexuals are afflicted by intrinsic evil.

And yet, several Catholic nations have allowed gay marriage, most of them practice divorce without qualm, and most certainly fuck around with contraceptives. Most of the Catholics in the US are supportive of gay marriage (and several in Latin America, Ireland, and Scotland) despite rampant propaganda and poster boards by the church leaders.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:36 am UTC

Do you have any actual good analogies, or are you just going to bring up mostly irrelevant ones every time someone disagrees with you?
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Lucrece » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:50 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Do you have any actual good analogies, or are you just going to bring up mostly irrelevant ones every time someone disagrees with you?


Would the answer matter to someone like you? It seems like you dedicate yourself to bludgeoning people until they agree with your political narratives. I doubt any analogy that doesn't illustrate the point you yourself want to see supported would be deemed as "good", so excuse me if I don't fret too much over your disapproval.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:19 am UTC

So, you're talking about people who are Catholic because their parents were Catholic, rather than out of any deep-seated conviction that Catholicism implies those priorities, and those priorities imply Catholicism.

If you're comparing this to Brexit voters, you're implying that the Brexit voters just voted that way because their friends and family did, and without any deep thought or principles behind it.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby ucim » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:26 am UTC

This appears to be degenerating into ad hominums.

Xenophobia is irrational fear of foreigners. However, rational fear of foreigners does not qualify. Categorical dislike of foreigners is more akin to nationalism; it's not a phobia per se, and I don't know if there's a specific word commonly used to convey this idea.

Dislike of the consequences of an influx of foreigners is yet another thing, but requires actual consideration of what the consequences are, not what one fears they might be. But when it leads to an irrational prejudice against foreigners, especially absent a real analysis, that is a Bad Thing.

If you are going to use (or deny) the word "xenophobia", it would be good to actually pair the word with the correct declarative meaning so that the emotional content matches the actual thing being identified. Otherwise one is no better than Trump.

This Brexit vote is hardly a mandate. It's a very narrow majority, after which a lot of people who voted were left wondering what just happened. It may be that upon reflection, this margin will shift; that is what I'd be looking at. If it shifts more towards "stay", Parliament's best policy would probably be to stall, and EU's best policy would be to wait. It will just blow over. But if after consideration it shifts more towards "leave", then perhaps that's the best course of action. Not being from there, I don't know what's actually best (and for whom).

I will add anecdotally that Big Government (of which the EU is one) can easily get into the position of making inappropriate decisions for Small Countries (like Ireland); I was there a few years back and much preferred their small farm products over the mechanized and sanitized procedures that seemed to be on their way. (Not that I'm against sanitary; but bigger isn't better. See eggs.)

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Lucrece » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:41 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:So, you're talking about people who are Catholic because their parents were Catholic, rather than out of any deep-seated conviction that Catholicism implies those priorities, and those priorities imply Catholicism.

If you're comparing this to Brexit voters, you're implying that the Brexit voters just voted that way because their friends and family did, and without any deep thought or principles behind it.



....No. I'm implying that just because some leader of some movement says or promotes something, that those who participate in his campaign will not necessarily share his motives and will vote for the same reason he does.

Which is why I find absurd the idea that just because some political campaign heads bought some ads and some of them promoted their side on xenophobic ideas, then clearly most of who voted Brexit did so for the same reason.

You don't even know these Catholics I was talking about, and here you are ready to state that the reason these Catholics voted with a different reason/motive than the Church is because they're not real Catholics; they're just aping their parents. Which is not necessarily true, because several of them may be devout in their way to their religion, but they follow their religion for different reasons and goals. They're not Catholic Lite as you would imply. There are Catholics who voted against abortion who also voted for gay marriage, or those who advocate in favor of divorce but not gay marriage; they're not all the same secular Catholics.

If you are going to use (or deny) the word "xenophobia", it would be good to actually pair the word with the correct declarative meaning so that the emotional content matches the actual thing being identified. Otherwise one is no better than Trump.


Welcome to political debates in the age of identity politics. When people realize the stigma categories like "racist" and "xenophobe" carry, it's no surprise people would wildly go around attaching this label onto any disliked position they can get away with.

It's much quicker to damn a side by painting them as racist/bigoted than spending more time arguing economic policy and matters of agency. It's a way of scaring moderates into your camp by floating often enough the idea that the camp they're undecided about is populated by the "bad" people.

And nobody likes to be associated with a racist/xenophobe, so if you truly succeed at painting someone as such, you've got your work cut out. No one will listen attentively or sincerely to an alleged racist regardless of what may come out of their mouth. At the very least you've manipulated an audience to be extremely skeptical toward the opposing side.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:08 am UTC

If the Catholic Church were using anti-gay messages as a promotional tool to get more people to become Catholic, and if their numbers increased noticeably as a result of this campaign, then your analogy would be relevant.

Also, most *people* are racist, of every political persuasion. If you don't want to be associated with racism, you have to put effort into being anti-racist. White people who are unwilling to make any such effort need to stop being so oversensitive about other people pointing out that they're the product of a racist culture.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Lucrece » Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:32 am UTC

Except the Catholic Church has done just that in Africa and in much of their shifted efforts to proselytizing to other less developed nations. We just had our first Latin American pope (who as a cardinal before becoming pope, tussled with Christina Kirchner,calling gay marriage legislation a ruse by The Father of Lies, aka Satan) be a smashing popular success, and the ascendancy of African cardinals in the ranks is particularly what has kept the Catholic Church from modernizing as they realize they can salvage their doctrine and maintain a population by targeting those who are currently anti-gay among other such prejudices.

Yeah, most people are racist. I don't know who disputed that. What people are disputing here is what and who is racist. And whether the driving factor for the majority of Brexit voters was xenophobia/racism, because this IS up for debate and confirmation.

If somebody has a survey of a majority of people saying they voted Brexit because they see all immigrants negatively, please share that data so we may conclude they are xenophobic. And then show me the data that of the immigrants that show up, they particularly voted to keep the black/brown Muslims out, while not the many white ones (because apparently Muslims are a singular race and not a massive collection of ethnicities to many people), so we can conclude they are also racist.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:02 am UTC

Do you guys seriously believe that the majority of the population of the UK is significantly racist/xenophobic/whatever word we want to use? As opposed to the working classes being pissed that for decades their wages have stagnated while the rich have seen massive growth, and maybe that has happened because of a combination of offshoring and immigration?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Lucrece » Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:22 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Do you guys seriously believe that the majority of the population of the UK is significantly racist/xenophobic/whatever word we want to use? As opposed to the working classes being pissed that for decades their wages have stagnated while the rich have seen massive growth, and maybe that has happened because of a combination of offshoring and immigration?



It always comes up in the subject of immigration, that you cannot want restrictions on immigrations without risking the accusations.

But that's an entirely different matter from leaping into a referendum on EU membership and out of the many factors and perceived negatives about being in the EU, it was somehow all about the immigrants.

Not about unhappiness at being part of a multinational organization whose foreign elites can casually sweep away referendums from member nations, in which the people of a member nation end up having far less of a say in what policies their nations will enact. I don't see why it's so hard to imagine that some people place great value in the amount of influence they have over the direction of their nation, and how having extra layers of hierarchy dilutes that influence.

Even if it economically doesn't favor them. Some small businesses prefer to forego the benefits of larger companies in order to keep more control of their affairs.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby commodorejohn » Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:28 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Also, most *people* are racist, of every political persuasion. If you don't want to be associated with racism, you have to put effort into being anti-racist. White people who are unwilling to make any such effort need to stop being so oversensitive about other people pointing out that they're the product of a racist culture.

Oh, this conversation just took a winning turn.

It's handy how the assertion that people have to work at not being racist provides a means for the people who make that assertion to quantify exactly how much better they are than The Rest.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby sardia » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:09 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:Yeah, most people are racist. I don't know who disputed that. What people are disputing here is what and who is racist. And whether the driving factor for the majority of Brexit voters was xenophobia/racism, because this IS up for debate and confirmation.

If somebody has a survey of a majority of people saying they voted Brexit because they see all immigrants negatively, please share that data so we may conclude they are xenophobic. And then show me the data that of the immigrants that show up, they particularly voted to keep the black/brown Muslims out, while not the many white ones (because apparently Muslims are a singular race and not a massive collection of ethnicities to many people), so we can conclude they are also racist.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 78876.html
A survey of 6,000 schoolchildren has found widespread misconceptions about the number of immigrants and non-white people living in England, as well as negative attitudes towards Muslims and those born overseas.

The study, believed to be the largest of its kind to be carried out in the UK, found that 60% of the children questioned believed it was true that “asylum seekers and immigrants are stealing our jobs”, while 35% agreed or partly agreed that “Muslims are taking over our country”.

One racism and immigration survey, as requested.

CorruptUser wrote:Do you guys seriously believe that the majority of the population of the UK is significantly racist/xenophobic/whatever word we want to use? As opposed to the working classes being pissed that for decades their wages have stagnated while the rich have seen massive growth, and maybe that has happened because of a combination of offshoring and immigration?

A screwed over people can easily be lead down a dark path even if there was a legitimate grievance. Don't you find it odd that the vote wasn't about revenge on the hardship the wealthy elite wrought into the UK?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Lucrece » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:16 am UTC

1- Can you provide links to the survey? The article offered no such citations, and the source it refers to is apparently being prepared for presentation.

2- These are not surveys of Brexit voters. The article you linked to talks about immigration campaigns and studies as early as from 2013, before leaving the EU had become a question.

Just because there are racists/xenophobes does not mean the majority of Brexit voters are these people. You actually need to establish this link with hard data.

3- You think a vote that's predicted to hit national economic interests and reducing the consolidation of financial powers across Europe is not a vote against the wealthy elite? Big corps LOVE the concept of the EU, leaving it is not something they're campaigning for.

One the one hand people are saying that immigrants are exploited, yet if they're so easily exploited for lower wages, why in hell would the wealthy elite conspire to create social resentment so their cheaper labor gets kicked out of the country?
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Jumble » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:30 am UTC

I think we are talking about something far more complex than simple racism. I think what we have here is a lot of people looking for an easy outlet for their unfulfilled aspiration. Let me try to explain that.

The UK today has a lot of people, probably a majority of people, who believe they are not doing as well as they could, or have as much as they want, and it’s not their fault. Britain has always been a country of aspiration (you could say envy or greed if you want to look on the negative side). That is what Thatcher managed to harness so effectively during the 80s. In the recent years of austerity and downbeat budgets delivered by a dour chancellor with a face like a slapped arse, many have (understandably) lost the belief that they can have climb out of whatever rut they feel themselves to be in simply by trying harder.

Hence the fracturing of the country: the young see their considerably wealthier parents and grandparents generation, who have pensions and could afford to buy their own houses, want it for themselves but see no way to get there. The regions want some of the wealth concentrated in the South East, but the SE doesn’t want to give it to them. Probably most importantly, the vast majority of people who feel they have no power to change any of this, that Westminster lives in its own little world of old-Etonian Oxbridge grads who only serve their own interests, wanted to say something and be heard. What was said was less important.

What the Brexit campaign did, by accident I think, was provide a lightning rod for all of that pent-up, unachievable aspiration by suggesting it was all someone else’s fault. The message was you would be able to get all of the things currently denied to you if we leave the EU, because it’s all the fault of the EU laws, or the EU budget and most seductively the EU immigrants (which can easily be broadened into all immigrants). The fuzzy boundary between that last point and basic racism is inevitable and seemed acceptable to the Brexit campaigners. The fact that the message was delivered by an incredibly wealthy old Etonian Oxbridge graduate is just one of those deep ironies that makes life so interesting.

The terrifying parallel, on this hundredth anniversary of the Somme, is that it was exactly the same seductive message that led to the last two world wars.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Grop » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:15 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Do you guys seriously believe that the majority of the population of the UK is significantly racist/xenophobic/whatever word we want to use? As opposed to the working classes being pissed that for decades their wages have stagnated while the rich have seen massive growth, and maybe that has happened because of a combination of offshoring and immigration?


Do not worry, that part will go on anyway.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Echo244 » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:38 am UTC

Jumble wrote:What the Brexit campaign did, by accident I think, was provide a lightning rod for all of that pent-up, unachievable aspiration by suggesting it was all someone else’s fault. The message was you would be able to get all of the things currently denied to you if we leave the EU, because it’s all the fault of the EU laws, or the EU budget and most seductively the EU immigrants (which can easily be broadened into all immigrants). The fuzzy boundary between that last point and basic racism is inevitable and seemed acceptable to the Brexit campaigners. The fact that the message was delivered by an incredibly wealthy old Etonian Oxbridge graduate is just one of those deep ironies that makes life so interesting.


And this message is what's going to take... ten years or so, to tear everything apart. Because things will absolutely not magically get better, especially not all the things the Leave side were selling as benefits. "The EU stops us from tackling immigration effectively", or whatever form of weasel words were used during the campaign by Leave (though I think that's a fair summary), has been taken by a lot of Leave voters as something between "We will stop immigration" and "We will get rid of immigrants". And as a consequence, "There will be lots of comfortable new homes and secure, well-paying jobs freed up for You, the Leave voter".

Initially, not much will happen, at least at first, because even most Leave politicians weren't quite promising to deal with it, and there will be growing dissatisfaction that, even out of the EU, immigration is not being stopped. Then, we'll see more efforts along the lines of Theresa May's "Go home or face arrest" vans - as a government effort, along with a truly crippling level of demands for any new immigrants to be welcomed (and forget about legal obligations to anyone seeking asylum). Using that as cover, there'll be a *lot* more racism and hostile attitudes to anyone foreign, mostly falling just short of the level that requires police intervention. It's going to be very unpleasant.

And then, five years after that starts, when things are not magically made better by demonising anyone suspected of immigrating, there'll be another backlash against Westminster for not doing enough. And another scapegoat. And I just don't want to watch all this from inside.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:24 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:[And nobody likes to be associated with a racist/xenophobe,
Just jumping in here to say that I have a close friend (in most matters) who is islamophobic insofar as he fears what the hordes of islamic immigrants (which he blames on the EU, that being another argument) will do to people like his gay son1. There's no reasoning with him over even the most obvious counterpoints to his viewpoint, and has bought into a viewpoint far adrift of my own.

Not that I can see him doing anyhing about his (frankly) nationalistc views, in the manner of direct action. He does not hate individual muslims(/<insert other immigrant or immigrant-origin person here>, but instead the masses/swarms/whatever of them.

He is, however, racist in the prejudicial and stereotyping way - subscribing to some outmoded and dodgy statistic about how people in islamic countries (and africans) have average IQs of around 60. Conversations with(/from) him on such subjects are hard to tolerate (which is ironic) and I feel much happier when the subject moves on somewhere else.

(He votes UKIP and voted Leave, naturally, and neither as a 'protest', but is a definite outlier.)

1 I'd long suspected his son to be more than just stylishly metrosexual, but dad was so worked up about getting his point across that I don't think he realised he officially 'outed' him in front of me. Or it didn't matter to him, because he knowx I'm an accepting person, myself, with less prejudice than he, I'd like to think.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:36 am UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Also, most *people* are racist, of every political persuasion. If you don't want to be associated with racism, you have to put effort into being anti-racist. White people who are unwilling to make any such effort need to stop being so oversensitive about other people pointing out that they're the product of a racist culture.

Oh, this conversation just took a winning turn.

It's handy how the assertion that people have to work at not being racist provides a means for the people who make that assertion to quantify exactly how much better they are than The Rest.
No handier than how the assertion that people have to work to keep themselves clean provides a means for people who make that assertion to quantify how much better they are than people who think saying "I'm a clean person!" is sufficient.

The potential for smugness doesn't make the assertion any less true. Just because I can be a smug asshole about washing my hands more thoroughly than you doesn't mean you don't need to wash your hands after taking a shit.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Echo244 » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:44 am UTC

Interesting side note on the Tory Leadership - after Mail journalist Sarah Vine wrote to her husband Michael Gove that he should seek "assurances" from Boris, with the reminder that Gove could command the backing of Dacre (Daily Mail) and Murdoch (Sun & Times) where Boris could not...

...the Daily Mail has reported on the leadership race in its normal careful, analytical, fair and balanced manner with a full-page piece on "why it must be Theresa", the Sun uses its front page to focus on Gove's attack on Boris ("Gove knifes Boris"), and the Times doesn't even mention Gove in the headline - focussing instead on a rather ludicrous idea (either from the Times if false or Boris if true) that Boris offered to stand down now if May stood aside by the next election.

There are few things to laugh about, at this time. But at least there's this.

<Edit to throw in link to today's headlines>
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:25 pm UTC

The Daily Star focused on the important issues as always.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:40 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Also, most *people* are racist, of every political persuasion. If you don't want to be associated with racism, you have to put effort into being anti-racist. White people who are unwilling to make any such effort need to stop being so oversensitive about other people pointing out that they're the product of a racist culture.

Oh, this conversation just took a winning turn.

It's handy how the assertion that people have to work at not being racist provides a means for the people who make that assertion to quantify exactly how much better they are than The Rest.


*shrug* It's still just an assertion, not evidence. Presumably by using an incredibly low bar for racism, that somehow conveniently excludes "everyone". Including those that immediately go on to label a certain color of people as the problem.

Baffling.

ucim wrote:This appears to be degenerating into ad hominums.

Xenophobia is irrational fear of foreigners. However, rational fear of foreigners does not qualify. Categorical dislike of foreigners is more akin to nationalism; it's not a phobia per se, and I don't know if there's a specific word commonly used to convey this idea.

Dislike of the consequences of an influx of foreigners is yet another thing, but requires actual consideration of what the consequences are, not what one fears they might be. But when it leads to an irrational prejudice against foreigners, especially absent a real analysis, that is a Bad Thing.

If you are going to use (or deny) the word "xenophobia", it would be good to actually pair the word with the correct declarative meaning so that the emotional content matches the actual thing being identified. Otherwise one is no better than Trump.


Precisely. At this point, it looks like looking for an excuse to embrace slurs wholesale for the bad, other side. Had they restrained themselves to describing Xenophobia as one factor, sure. Easy day. But they had to reach for using it to define most people, or everyone on that side.

Describing the Brexit folks as nationalist strikes me as somewhat easier to defend, but it's less popular precisely because it has less negative baggage.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:50 pm UTC

Racism against white people (as white people) is not a thing, and pointing out that white people are usually the ones most prone to feelings-hurt overreactions when the word gets used doesn't even rise to the level of simple prejudice. (There's nothing "pre" about it, for one thing.)

And acknowledging that most people (I never said or meant to imply "all") are at least somewhat racist doesn't dilute the term to meaninglessness, any more than acknowleding that most people don't wash there hands sufficiently after using the bathroom dilutes "unhygienic" to uselessness.

(Also, "racist" and "xenophobe" are not slurs.)

In any case, until an actual person in the UK, who was directly exposed to all the Leave propaganda and 20+ years of UKIP campaigning before that, offers a reasonable explanation of how totally not-xenophobic the movement as a whole is, I'm done caring what other American armchair commentators have to say about it.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:07 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Racism against white people (as white people) is not a thing, and pointing out that white people are usually the ones most prone to feelings-hurt overreactions when the word gets used doesn't even rise to the level of simple prejudice. (There's nothing "pre" about it, for one thing.)


One can be racist against any color, and nothing prevents someone from racism against his or her own particular color.

If you want to observe that in the US, certain demographics have suffered more from racism, you'd be correct, but that doesn't make other kinds of racism impossible. It's a thing, even if it's not as common, or usually as damaging*.

And a statement of "they need to fix their demographic difference" is different than observing one exists. One can observe that violent crime is more common among certain demographics in the US, and you're on pretty sound footing. But if you imply that it's their fault by saying that they are responsible for fixing it...that would be reasonably racist, I think. Or whatever other ist/ism based on the particular demographic you're discriminating by.

Once you start arguing that a particular action is not logically or morally equivalent BECAUSE of the target's color, you're going down a pretty hypocritical path if your goal is to condemn racism.

(Also, "racist" and "xenophobe" are not slurs.)


Google:

noun

noun: slur; plural noun: slurs
1. an insinuation or allegation about someone that is likely to insult them or damage their reputation.


Please.

*As a trivial example, hate crimes do occur against white people for being white. Just at a way lower rate.


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