50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Diadem » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:10 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:IMO, its not an ISIS attack unless the dude actually has connections with it.

The guy said he did it for ISIS, the FBI confirms he had ISIS connections, and ISIS themselves have claimed the attack. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...

Does it matter if he had an official ISIS membership card? If ISIS would be denying involvement it would be a different matter. But they aren't. And inspiring people to commit terrorist attacks in their name is pretty much the ISIS modus operandi in the west. So what's the difference? The consequences of the attack are the same either way.

Zohar wrote:
Lucrece wrote:I don't get why some progressives are so attached to protecting the image of religion, especially when they perceive a particular religion to be populated by racial minorities.

Because it demonizes people who follow those religions.

Just those who commit acts of terror, or support such acts. And those people can use a bit of demonizing.

I'm with Lucrece on this one. Refusing to name these attacks for what they are is insulting to gays and patronizing to moderate muslims.

Fractal_Tangent wrote:Both sides of the debate came to the conclusion that what made this particular shooting so deadly was the expiration of the law against the sale of assault weapons and that something should have been done about that (though no wider pro- or anti- gun message was present).

I'm always of favour of stricter gun controls. But stricter gun regulation won't stop everything. It won't do much against well planned attacks by very determined groups or individuals. Those will find a way to obtain guns illegally if necessary. It does help a lot against more spontaneous attacks. Most crimes aren't planned very far in advance, and not having easy access to a gun will thus help a lot. And suicide is another very good reason for stricter gun controls.

This attack however I think is not a good example. It seems to be of the "well planned attacks by a very determined groups or individuals" variety.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:22 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:This attack however I think is not a good example. It seems to be of the "well planned attacks by a very determined groups or individuals" variety.
Seems more ad-hoc and spontaneous, to me.

And (until anyone says otherwise) I'm saying this on behalf of The Church Of The SubGenius.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby leady » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:34 pm UTC

It looks like a lone wolf and but without the justifying ideology or the ease of access to guns ("Assault weapons" being a bit irrelevant) then this attack manifests as a street assault

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:44 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:IMO, its not an ISIS attack unless the dude actually has connections with it.

The guy said he did it for ISIS, the FBI confirms he had ISIS connections, and ISIS themselves have claimed the attack. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
His last-minute 911 call and an anonymous online post inconsistent with the way Daesh normally talks about LGBT people are enough to convince you of that connection?

He's also seen in multiple selfies with NYPD shirts on. Does that mean he's a cop?

Zohar wrote:
Lucrece wrote:I don't get why some progressives are so attached to protecting the image of religion, especially when they perceive a particular religion to be populated by racial minorities.

Because it demonizes people who follow those religions.

Just those who commit acts of terror, or support such acts. And those people can use a bit of demonizing.

I'm with Lucrece on this one. Refusing to name these attacks for what they are is insulting to gays and patronizing to moderate muslims.
You, a straight non-Muslim, really don't get to determine that. Especially not when you're talking to a gay guy and when your claim about patronization runs directly in the face of what all the actual moderate and progressive Muslims I know are saying about this attack.

This attack however I think is not a good example. It seems to be of the "well planned attacks by a very determined groups or individuals" variety.
No, it really doesn't. The guy who was planning to attack LA Pride, maybe, but Orlando didn't really require a well-crafted plan.

Also, even if it did, the fact remains that he did obtain his weapons legally, and wouldn't have been able to do so as easily if laws were different.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:55 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:I'm with Lucrece on this one. Refusing to name these attacks for what they are is insulting to gays and patronizing to moderate muslims.

"What they are"? Literally the only definitive connection you have between this specific attack and the Islam is that the killer is Muslim. I'm Jewish by birth, if I were to kill someone would that immediately make it an Extremist Jewish attack? Probably not. And the idea that "Islam doesn't support LGBT people" is completely irrelevant considering how many other religions don't support LGBT rights, and how many atheists don't support LGBT rights. I've seen many Jewish Orthodox people who were much more open and tolerant than many atheists I've met.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:15 pm UTC

leady wrote:It looks like a lone wolf and but without the justifying ideology or the ease of access to guns ("Assault weapons" being a bit irrelevant) then this attack manifests as a street assault

Pretty sure it's considerably harder to quickly kill or injure more than 100 people with a handgun.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Diadem » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:29 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
Diadem wrote:This attack however I think is not a good example. It seems to be of the "well planned attacks by a very determined groups or individuals" variety.
Seems more ad-hoc and spontaneous, to me.

Perhaps. I was basing that statement on a article I read that said the gunman had been planning this attack for weeks. But I can't find that article any more, nor any collaborating sources. Perhaps I misremembered. Maybe I mixed him up with the guy who was planning to attack the LA Pride.

Like I said, I'm in favour of stricter gun regulations anyway, so the validity of this particular case as an example doesn't really interest me all that much. It was a side point. The debate about guns is worth having. Just as long as we don't forget to have a debate about Islamic extremism as well, because that debate is also worth having. Although the cynic in me thinks neither debate is worth having because those kind of debates never change anything anyway.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Lazar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:34 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:"What they are"? Literally the only definitive connection you have between this specific attack and the Islam is that the killer is Muslim. I'm Jewish by birth, if I were to kill someone would that immediately make it an Extremist Jewish attack?

If you called the authorities to pledge your allegiance to, say, Kahanism while carrying it out, then I'd lean toward yes.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:48 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:
Zohar wrote:"What they are"? Literally the only definitive connection you have between this specific attack and the Islam is that the killer is Muslim. I'm Jewish by birth, if I were to kill someone would that immediately make it an Extremist Jewish attack?

If you called the authorities to pledge your allegiance to, say, Kahanism while carrying it out, then I'd lean toward yes.

Seeing as ISIS has so far been much more interested in killing people who don't support ISIS, rather than concentrating their efforts on LGBTQ people, I would say that's almost tangential. The guy was homophobic, and that's why he shot those people.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Lazar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:54 pm UTC

You don't know with certainty why he shot those people, and neither do I. Preliminary reports indicate that he was also a racist, sexist and misanthrope, so it may have been general homophobia pushing him toward homicide. But radical Islam was the factor that he himself identified.

And it's tangential that LGBTQ folk are one of the groups toward which ISIS has extreme hatred? I don't really understand your reasoning here. If he had attacked a synagogue, would you likewise argue that it must have nothing to do with ISIS because they don't concentrate their efforts on Jews? I mean, would he have to attack a representative sample of all groups that ISIS hates for it to count?
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:01 pm UTC

I'm saying, ISIS attacks previously haven't targeted specifically LGBT groups. And he chose to target specifically an LGBT group - there's no shortage of other targets, but he chose this one. Whatever his other motives might have been, I very much doubt he entered that specific club by accident and any other club or setting would have done just as well for him - he chose it. Also he was not affiliated with ISIS, to our knowledge - no proof that he received training or instructions from them, for example. If ISIS were to start asking their initiates (or whatever) to specifically target LGBT groups, then sure - there might have been more of a connection there. I don't know that that's necessarily happened, or how much he was exposed to their propaganda.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Lazar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:13 pm UTC

I'm saying, ISIS attacks previously haven't targeted specifically LGBT groups. Whatever his other motives might have been, I very much doubt he entered that specific club by accident and any other club or setting would have done just as well for him - he chose it.

Again, I'm struggling to understand your reasoning. Previous ISIS-related attacks have focused on Jewish targets – another group who they really hate but (owing to circumstances) haven't been focusing on in Syria. A gay nightclub, like a Jewish market, represents an especially dense concentration of especially hated people, and would thus make a more attractive target than most other places. I think it's entirely possible that his ingrown homophobia may be the dominant factor, but I don't think the fact that it was an LGBT target argues against a religious motivation as you seem to think it does.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Dauric » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:16 pm UTC

ISIS is probably taking responsibility because of the "Largest mass shooting in U.S. history" angle. If they can sell the connection then it's a PR coup in their favor of having an "agent" commit a historical atrocity in their name.

Whether ISIS "deserves" credit.. probably not, at least not from the nature of the target as Zohar said, as well as the at-best tenuous connection between the shooter and ISIS.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:25 pm UTC

I think our difference of opinions, Lazar, is you perceive this as a causal relationship - ISIS supporter > Terrorist, and ISIS supporter > homophobe. I think he was a homophobe, which is what led him to these actions. And additionally because of his hateful tendencies, he may have found a kinship with ISIS (though again, we have no clear view of the relationship between him and the organization just yet).

If he respected/accepted/loved/liked LGBT people, he wouldn't have chosen them as a target, I would assume. And yeah, if an ISIS terrorist bombs a synagogue, I would say the motive is antisemitism. There are, of course, cultural and social reasons for the way people act, but it's all rooted in their own personal hatred.

And to get back to the original discussion, there's a big difference between "He was an ISIS operative" and "He was Muslim". One is a valid explanation of someone's motive to cause terror, the other is not.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Fractal_Tangent » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:53 pm UTC

As far as I could tell from all the reports that I've been hearing. It appears as though he was already investigated by the FBI and they didn't find any specific links with IS. He could have read some stuff online, broadly agreed with it and decided to act on it in his own way. His own way being a homophobic attack on a LGBT club. Being influenced by IS =/= one of their agents.

Dauric wrote:
ISIS is probably taking responsibility because of the "Largest mass shooting in U.S. history" angle. If they can sell the connection then it's a PR coup in their favor of having an "agent" commit a historical atrocity in their name.

Whether ISIS "deserves" credit.. probably not, at least not from the nature of the target as Zohar said, as well as the at-best tenuous connection between the shooter and ISIS.

I agree with this. If I were to murder some folks and straight up claim that it was for IS, I'm sure that they would agree. They would probably claim all sorts of connections and that they helped fund him or w/e in order to continue to disseminate fear.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:07 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:IMO, its not an ISIS attack unless the dude actually has connections with it.

The guy said he did it for ISIS, the FBI confirms he had ISIS connections, and ISIS themselves have claimed the attack. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...

Does it matter if he had an official ISIS membership card? If ISIS would be denying involvement it would be a different matter. But they aren't. And inspiring people to commit terrorist attacks in their name is pretty much the ISIS modus operandi in the west. So what's the difference? The consequences of the attack are the same either way.


Link please? The closest I got right now is that this guy called 911 and said "I commit this attack in the name of ISIS".

Specifically: I'm interested in these "ISIS Connections". Based on the politics of this situation, ISIS should claim responsibility despite not having any solid connection. Terrorist groups regularly claim responsibility in other "inspired" attacks (Fort Hood shooting IIRC. EDIT: Al Quaeda / Anwar al-Awlaki claimed a connection) even though there isn't any official connection.

The difference is the Paris attack vs this one. One guy with powerful guns is scary, don't get me wrong. But multiple attacks spread-out throughout a city by coordinated suicide bombers and coordinated strike groups is far scarier.

Lone wolf attacks are virtually impossible to stop. Stopping a coordinated attacks is basically the best that an intelligence agency can hope for, at least with current policies / intelligence agencies in place. The less that terrorists talk to each other, the harder it is for intelligence to pick up. The lone wolf attacker doesn't talk to anyone else when they attack.

In the case of the Boston Bomber and the San Bernadino shooters, it was close family ties (two brothers, or a husband and wife) who were coordinated with each other. That's also very difficult for intelligence agencies to pick up due to the close relationship between the offenders. The level of privacy that must be given up for the FBI to prevent such attacks is probably unacceptable.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Belial » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:09 pm UTC

I think the desperate search for a foreign religious influence for this attack by a "not very religious" (according to his father) cop-worshipping homophobe has a lot to do with the fact that many of the onlookers would be forced to acknowledge that our country has a huge homophobia and violence problem, which would in turn be acknowledging that their own homophobia is part of the problem.

A dude attacked a lgbtq nightclub during a pride event because he was revolted by gay people. Whatever else he chose to attach that hatred to at the last minute, we know about that revulsion and we know how he chose to act on it.

So if you've ever stood in the way of lgbtq rights, if you've ever expressed revulsion at lgbtq people or public displays of their love, you're part of the soil this shooting grew from.

For a lot of people, it's way more comforting (and way more suitable to their political agendas) to frame this as an Islamic attack on americans than it is to face their own complicity and either acknowledge that they don't actually care or else change.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Belial » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:12 pm UTC

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:33 pm UTC

His "friend" apparently stated that he did become more religious in recent years, but he was violent and abusive and probably extremely homophobic long before any of that happened.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Deva » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:34 pm UTC

Elaborated on the prior investigation. Appears to be a liar.
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Reported no further deaths currently, thankfully.
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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:54 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Can we PLEASE not call this an Islamist attack? The shooter was (perhaps) Muslim, but from what's described so far it's clear it's his homophobic hatred that led him to do it. It's a hate crime, not a religious-based attack.


It is sort of difficult to ignore that religion and homophobic hatred are kinda tied up here.

It is both terrorism and an Islamist attack. The two are, of course, independent, but it fulfills the criteria for both. It is ALSO a hate crime, of course.

Soupspoon wrote:When I first read of this (the initial BBC website article was 10 minutes old, with the attacker`s identity as yet unreleased) I assumed it was a white right-wing guy, to be honest. 'Murika, an' all, y'all...


I see this prior a lot, and it doesn't seem to be very accurate. Sure, they do some bad stuff, but they do not appear to be over-represented in terms of such events. The male part, sure. That's easy. The other identifiers, not so much.

sardia wrote:http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/terrorists-are-turning-to-guns-more-often-in-u-s-attacks/
Interesting trends in terrorism.
More guns, less explosives. Another is that terrorists use to be more discrete and less wanted to kill. Now they want to be watched and kill.

I still find it interesting that you can't legally stop a terrorist from buying a gun.


Guy was a security guard, who have exceptions carved out in even the most stringent gun control(along with law enforcement) the US has, or has ever had. So, in practice, he'd have been armed regardless. I imagine that this will not stop endless attempts to use this as political leverage to pass other bills that would also not prevent this situation.

Fractal_Tangent wrote:Both sides of the debate came to the conclusion that what made this particular shooting so deadly was the expiration of the law against the sale of assault weapons and that something should have been done about that (though no wider pro- or anti- gun message was present).


That sounds like a distinctly anti-gun message to me. Given that this was a ban based primarily on aesthetics, not functionality, their conclusion also seems patently false. A semi auto gun is a semi auto gun, regardless of if it's black, and has cool-looking attachments bolted on.

gmalivuk wrote:Both of those seem like pretty easy things to do regardless of whether this was an Islamist terror attack or just a(nother) plain home-grown homophobic one.


If they also accept him as valid seems important to me. If you do something horrible in the name of a faith, and that faith disclaims any association with you...that's different than if they cheerfully accept you as one of their own. Paints things in a different light.

I imagine that the various horrible organizations and sects promoting violence will cheerfully accept his claim, on the basis of that very violence. That's particularly awful.

The fact that he speaks in a different manner than other attackers is ultimately not relevant. The manner of speaking isn't a motivation for violence. All that does is give us a little bit of background about how he got the way he did.

gmalivuk wrote:His "friend" apparently stated that he did become more religious in recent years, but he was violent and abusive and probably extremely homophobic long before any of that happened.


Makes sense. I'd imagine that's true for a lot of extremist groups. The sort of people who seek them out may not be 100% well balanced, reasonable individuals to begin with. They're searching for justifications for pre-existing hatred as much as anything. Sure, there's radicalization happening as well, but there's a baked in filter for sub-groups publicly known to be kinda out there.

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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:08 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Zohar wrote:Can we PLEASE not call this an Islamist attack? The shooter was (perhaps) Muslim, but from what's described so far it's clear it's his homophobic hatred that led him to do it. It's a hate crime, not a religious-based attack.


It is sort of difficult to ignore that religion and homophobic hatred are kinda tied up here.

It is both terrorism and an Islamist attack. The two are, of course, independent, but it fulfills the criteria for both. It is ALSO a hate crime, of course.

I don't find it difficult, and neither do a lot of my friends, both here and in other places. Again, I'm unclear why you think this is an "Islamist attack" and how it fulfills the criteria for it.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:18 pm UTC

He's claiming he's part of an Islamist terror group, and they're claiming him. The purpose for which he is killing is consistent with the ideology they preach.

The homophobic hatred seems equally obvious.

The connections seem pretty indisputable, can you help me out with what bit you're having problems with?

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:27 pm UTC

Everything I'm saying has been mentioned before - he's claiming he's doing it for them and supporting their cause, but there's no proof that he's actually part of the group in any measurable way. They're claiming him because of course they would, but even that claim is not in the way they consistently claim such attacks and seems odd. The target he chose is inconsistent with previous targets chosen by the organization. Basically the only connection is him telling the police "I like what they do" and ISIS saying back "Yeah he's cool".
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:37 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Everything I'm saying has been mentioned before - he's claiming he's doing it for them and supporting their cause, but there's no proof that he's actually part of the group in any measurable way.
He is a part of the group in the one way that counts. He has done murder in their name. He has incited terror by murdering at the present count 49 and wounding at least that many more. Despite any other motivation he had, he handed them a headline that they didn't have to pay for. He doesn't need a membership card. He doesn't need to be sane. All he needed to do is to connect the dots for people here who want to believe, and to give ISIS more pictures for their memory books.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Dauric » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:38 pm UTC

IS is claiming his actions as theirs, but the question is are they just claiming those actions after-the-fact because of the apparently record setting body count, or did they actually have a hand in training, funding, or equipping this incident?

It's an important distinction. If they actively had a hand in training and financing this attack then methods that Law Enforcement could intervene revolve around, as Knightexemplar noted, tracing communications between the 'Agent' and known cells and leadership in the larger terrorist organization. If this was organized from afar then the threat is ongoing, and large jewish communities should be on alert, as well as LGBT communities and gathering places. IS (and Al Qaeda) like the coordinated attack method, especially outside of the Middle East. A big coordinated attack like the 9-11 hijackings and the Paris Attacks means the attack can't be dismissed as an individual crazy-person, but as something that has the backing of an organization and can happen again.

If this is a "Lone Wolf" who has barely any actual connections to outside organizational support and leadership then breaking the cause-effect chain that led to this event is completely different than if it has outside foreign backing.

Again, IS has claimed responsibility after the fact because it looks good on their 'resume' (an 'agent' in the U.S. causes historic body-count for one person, IS can reach into the heart of the western satan and strike...), but whether this was -really- driven by radicalized islamism or that is an excuse to thinly justify an anti-gay hate-crime has an effect on how one should view the incident and how to approach potential means of prevention.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Chen » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:42 pm UTC

I can't think of any good reason to claim doing it for ISIS if you didn't actually mean it. If he lived, it's not like doing it in ISIS' name is better than doing it because you hate homosexuals. I suspect the terrorism charges would be more severe than any hate crimes charge, not to mention you'd probably get the hate crime charges anyways. If he figured he was going to die anyways, claiming to do it for ISIS seems even more pointless if he didn't mean it. I mean I guess you confuse the authorities and media somewhat, but to what end?

Now as for ISIS claiming responsibility, that's not a clear indicator either way. They could legitimately have helped him or whatever, or they could just be hopping on the bandwagon because it's convenient and useful to them.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Dauric » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:46 pm UTC

Chen wrote:I can't think of any good reason to claim doing it for ISIS if you didn't actually mean it.


"God told me to" sounds better than "Those men kissing eachother makes me feel icky." Tying himself to a large (violent) social movement like that may have made himself feel like what he was doing was actually justified instead of a blatant hate crime, or in an attempt to make others think he was martyring himself for something other than his own prejudices.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:49 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Zohar wrote:Everything I'm saying has been mentioned before - he's claiming he's doing it for them and supporting their cause, but there's no proof that he's actually part of the group in any measurable way.
He is a part of the group in the one way that counts. He has done murder in their name. He has incited terror by murdering at the present count 49 and wounding at least that many more. Despite any other motivation he had, he handed them a headline that they didn't have to pay for. He doesn't need a membership card. He doesn't need to be sane. All he needed to do is to connect the dots for people here who want to believe, and to give ISIS more pictures for their memory books.


From a political perspective, perhaps you're right.

But from a policy perspective... there is no procedure that can identify and target a Lone Wolf with a clean record. There will be another Lone Wolf attack in the future, maybe in months, maybe in years. You can't stop people from getting angry and then lashing out at their neighbors... especially when these people have absolutely no criminal records... and have absolutely no discussions / coordination with outside groups.

Chen wrote:I can't think of any good reason to claim doing it for ISIS if you didn't actually mean it. If he lived, it's not like doing it in ISIS' name is better than doing it because you hate homosexuals. I suspect the terrorism charges would be more severe than any hate crimes charge, not to mention you'd probably get the hate crime charges anyways. If he figured he was going to die anyways, claiming to do it for ISIS seems even more pointless if he didn't mean it. I mean I guess you confuse the authorities and media somewhat, but to what end?

Now as for ISIS claiming responsibility, that's not a clear indicator either way. They could legitimately have helped him or whatever, or they could just be hopping on the bandwagon because it's convenient and useful to them.


President Obama just called this an ISIS inspired attack on CSPAN, without any evidence suggesting its part of a larger plot or that he had any direct connections to ISIS.

Just stick with the facts. He invoked ISIS's name and likely read some ISIS propaganda on Facebook. So that's the extent of his ISIS connections... much like other mass attackers.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby sardia » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:01 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:He's claiming he's part of an Islamist terror group, and they're claiming him. The purpose for which he is killing is consistent with the ideology they preach.

The homophobic hatred seems equally obvious.

The connections seem pretty indisputable, can you help me out with what bit you're having problems with?

If you hit 'like' on Isis Facebook page, while you beat your wife, are you an agent of Isis? I find it a bit too easy to say Isis made him do it. Is his dad an agent of Isis for being the father and complaining how icky gays are? Why not say the father planned it all along by raising the boy as a homophobe?

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:06 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:IS is claiming his actions as theirs
More accurately, "A message posted in Arabic on a dark web site associated with the ISIS news agency Amaq [claimed his actions as theirs]...[but] the language is inconsistent with previous ISIS announcements."
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:11 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:He's claiming he's part of an Islamist terror group, and they're claiming him. The purpose for which he is killing is consistent with the ideology they preach.

The homophobic hatred seems equally obvious.

The connections seem pretty indisputable, can you help me out with what bit you're having problems with?


The Paris attackers fought in Iraq EDIT: Syria under ISIS. They were ISIS veterans, who then came home, trained a bunch of gunmen and then coordinated one of the largest terrorist attacks in modern European history.

We need to be careful about "connections with ISIS", otherwise the phrase becomes meaningless. The strength of these connections matter strongly in reacting to this event. If ISIS demonstrates a capacity to train agents to infiltrate the US and then coordinate large-scale attacks, then the damage would be far larger than what this asshole did yesterday.

That's why figuring out and stating the exact nature of his connections with ISIS is important. If he only read a Facebook page then invoked the name, then we really can't do anything about that from an intelligence perspective. On the other hand, if his connections were deeper, then that would indicate some form of intelligence failure.

Obviously, at one day into these attacks, the answers aren't all there yet. But that's the kind of information we should care about. Being loose with the language "connections to ISIS" will only serve to muddle the waters.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:20 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:He is a part of the group in the one way that counts. He has done murder in their name.

That is definitely not the way that counts. As others have mentioned before me, there's a lot that IS could have done for him - provided training, supported him morally and psychologically in his actions, or tried to convince him to follow through on them, helped plan the attack, gave him his weapons, distracted police, provided false intelligence to cover his preparations... Those are all significant ways for him to be part of IS. Saying he liked their idea is not insignificant - I don't like the idea of their hatred being spread around, but it doesn't matter at all in terms of what brought out this attack.

If there was proof that he even got inspired by them, that might be a more useful and interesting connection - we'll know that IS impacts even people who are not part of their group. But we don't know that. And frankly, considering the massive amount of rampant gun shootings in the US by people who definitely do not support IS, I would be surprised if they account for a large percentage of these occurrences in the US.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:30 pm UTC

He has created precisely the emotional experience that ISIS would like you to have. Uncertainty. From the standpoint of preventing future attacks it is important to know of a connection if any. But the impact of the event is all the more frightening because it means that ISIS doesn't need to do anything but to be the inspiration. There doesn't have to be a trail and you can't prevent it from happening. From their standpoint it is a win-win. It raises fear of Muslims in general and invites someone like Trump to ratchet up the pressure on that community and thereby increase the odds that members will be radicalized.
Zohar wrote:If there was proof that he even got inspired by them,
If his own utterances aren't proof than I'm not certain that there can be any at all. You can't peel his mind back and look. And guns as a method of attack in the US is a indicator of the mindset of US citizens and the relative difficulty of obtaining explosives versus guns. And your government has made the ability to carry a gun almost anywhere at anytime a touchstone for what it is to be American.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Dauric » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:38 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:And your government has made the ability to carry a gun almost anywhere at anytime a touchstone for what it is to be American.


As an American, and one who lives in the western state of Colorado, No, it hasn't. Seriously, walk down the street in most U.S. cities openly carrying and you -will- be harassed by the police and they -will- be keeping an eye on you. We aren't living in some spaghetti western where everyone's got a six-gun swinging on our hips. There are fairly stringent restrictions on when, where and how you can carry, including a great many places where you cannot possess a weapon even with a concealed carry permit.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:06 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:He has created precisely the emotional experience that ISIS would like you to have. Uncertainty. From the standpoint of preventing future attacks it is important to know of a connection if any. But the impact of the event is all the more frightening because it means that ISIS doesn't need to do anything but to be the inspiration.


Its important because anything can serve as inspiration. We live in a world today connected with Facebook and Twitter to every corner in the globe. There will always be a militant extremist that inspires a terror attack.

Anyway, welcome to the modern era. "Inspired by" has been the connection found in these attackers for almost a decade at this point. There's nothing new to this style of attack.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby DaBigCheez » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:07 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
Zohar wrote:
Lucrece wrote:I don't get why some progressives are so attached to protecting the image of religion, especially when they perceive a particular religion to be populated by racial minorities.

Because it demonizes people who follow those religions.

Just those who commit acts of terror, or support such acts. And those people can use a bit of demonizing.

I realize I'm a bit behind the times on this one, but I strongly object to the first part of this statement. As anyone living in the US for the decade following 9/11 could attest, people are not very good at distinguishing between "this specific subgroup of $group did a Bad Thing" and "all members of $group are dangerous and want to do a Bad Thing".
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Lucrece » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:08 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:He's claiming he's part of an Islamist terror group, and they're claiming him. The purpose for which he is killing is consistent with the ideology they preach.

The homophobic hatred seems equally obvious.

The connections seem pretty indisputable, can you help me out with what bit you're having problems with?

If you hit 'like' on Isis Facebook page, while you beat your wife, are you an agent of Isis? I find it a bit too easy to say Isis made him do it. Is his dad an agent of Isis for being the father and complaining how icky gays are? Why not say the father planned it all along by raising the boy as a homophobe?



Did the homophobia spontaneously form in his heart?

Probably not, because homophobia is the result of a philosophy whose very texts condemn it, even if modern religious practitioners are bending themselves backwards to lawyer their way through the very words in their ancient text they claim to follow.

He didn't just arrive at the conclusion that two men kissing was the wrong thing for his kids to watch on his own. There's virtually an entire system of morality propped up by the dominant religious narratives which most of the world still lives by.

Zohar wrote:
Lucrece wrote:I don't get why some progressives are so attached to protecting the image of religion, especially when they perceive a particular religion to be populated by racial minorities.

Because it demonizes people who follow those religions.

By this point I don't give a shit what someone's feelings are about seeing their religion painted in a bad light. Boo fucking hoo. Religion has been a scourge to gay people and women for millennia, and we frankly we don't need all this apologia just because some political factions want somebody's vote.

1. No, religion hasn't always been a scourge to gay people (how are women not people BTW?) over millennia. Yes, of course it's happened a lot over the years, but there were also centuries-long periods when religious movements sanctioned same-sex relationships (I know this is definitely true for Judaism and Christianity).
2. As a gay atheist, I'm going to object here and say that this is incredibly disturbing to me.

Stop trying to feed people this bullshit about religions of peace. Religions are neither peaceful or benevolent in most of the world to several minorities, especially gay people.

Some people working on behalf of some religions have definitely been violent, there's no doubt about that. But I'm not sure how you can say that when most people in the world are religious, and most people in the world have also not been violent towards others.

There's not a single Muslim country where homosexuality isn't subject to governmental and social persecution, most of them actually carrying the death penalty or heavy jail terms.

The Ottoman Empire legalized homosexual relationships in 1858 (for reference, Finland only legalized in 1971, Norway in 1972, and the US in 2003). LGBT people can also seek asylum in Turkey for their sexual orientation. Also, 20 out of 57 majority-Muslim countries don't have laws prohibiting same-sex intercourse or same-sex relationships.
So please don't say things that are simply not true.


1- And? We demonize the views of white supremacists every day, why shouldn't we demonize the view of religions whose platforms as delineated by their texts profess detestable materials? White supremacist, or favoring the supremacy of heterosexuals, it makes little difference. It's nice and all that a handful of practitioners in your western secular nation adapt their beliefs to not clash with the host culture, but I'm concerned with how a religion is practiced over most of the world, not some isolated offshoots.

2- Please, in the balance of things, the arc of abrahamic religions has caused more suffering to gay people than a few smatterings of "accepting" shepherd Christian traditions in a few centuries. There's a reason why the vast majority of Christianity has evolved to what it is to day in its stance over homosexuality in most of the world.

I'm glad you've grown up in an environment where religion has not been your enemy. For most people out there, they don't live in progressive urban centers where religious influence has been diluted.

3- Since you pulled that Ottoman bit likely from Wikipedia, let's visit Turkey's stance on homosexuality from the World Values Survey.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/04/15/glo ... sexuality/

Oh, look, 78% find homosexuality unacceptable. That cluster of "unacceptable" at the top seems rather conspicuous in its makeup.

Here's another tidbit from previous surveys.

In the 2011 World Values Survey, 84% of Turkish respondents stated that they did not want to live with LGBT neighbors.[1] Meanwhile KONDA, a well-respected research company in Turkey, conducted another nationwide survey in collaboration with the youngest LGBT organization in Turkey – that is, the Social Policies, Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation Studies Association (SPoD) – in 2012. One of the questions asked was, “Do you think homosexuality should be criminalized? If yes, what should the penalty be?” Despite the fact that a sexual act between same-sex partners above the age of 18 has never been a crime in Turkey, only 11.2 % of respondents answered that homosexuality should not be a criminal act. Some 32% said that homosexuals should be given the most severe punishment available; 28.9% answered that they should be “cured”; 21.7% said they should be jailed; and 6.2%that they should be fined.[2]


http://www.e-ir.info/2012/12/14/lgbt-ri ... tolerance/

Just a few.

You'll probably want to bring up Lebanon next, since that's the other country people seem to think is progressive toward gay people.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2012/08/10/leb ... ests-shame

Except when their police force aren't running anal examinations on gay men. Because tests for anal virginity are a thing, apparently.


But by all means, if you think the religious world that isn't comprised of the western culture (where we still have troglodytes in Italy and Greece, for one), feel free to demonstrate how openly and well you live as a gay atheist in any Muslim majority nation.
Last edited by Lucrece on Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:41 pm UTC, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Deva » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:13 pm UTC

Why limit it to one membership?
Same Source wrote:FBI director James Comey said he was "highly confident this killer was radicalised" and partially through the internet.

More from Comey:
- Mateen questioned in 2013 because he made "inflammatory and contradictory" statements, including claiming connections to both al-Qaeda and Hezbollah - two groups diametrically opposed to each other
- he told the FBI he had made the comments in anger because he thought colleagues were discriminatory and mocking him
- the FBI followed him and investigated further but closed the case after 10 months
- second investigation began because Mateen once attended the same mosque as a suicide bomber, and a person the FBI interviewed had once been concerned that he had been radicalised, but was no longer worried because he had been recently married and had a child.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:20 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
morriswalters wrote:And your government has made the ability to carry a gun almost anywhere at anytime a touchstone for what it is to be American.


As an American, and one who lives in the western state of Colorado, No, it hasn't. Seriously, walk down the street in most U.S. cities openly carrying and you -will- be harassed by the police and they -will- be keeping an eye on you. We aren't living in some spaghetti western where everyone's got a six-gun swinging on our hips. There are fairly stringent restrictions on when, where and how you can carry, including a great many places where you cannot possess a weapon even with a concealed carry permit.
Colorado is one place, but it isn't the only place. The restrictions are declining, not increasing, as witnessed by teachers being allowed to carry guns in school in a lot of states. This isn't likely to change that.


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