50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:09 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:One I have only seen here suggests that it's a bad translation resulting from a grammatical error in the original, and that the verse only prohibits lying with a man in the bed of a woman. I don't know enough about Hebrew to evaluate the argument, but it does seem to be the case that the word that gets translated to "as with" in most English versions of Leviticus gets translated to "bed" back in Genesis.


Context dependent translation. Lying in the bed of a woman is *also* a euphemism for sex. The specific English chosen is only to properly convey the meaning.
How is "lying with a man in the bed of a woman" a coherent euphemism for "fucking a man in the ass"?

gmalivuk wrote:
leady wrote:I'm not sure how to respond to that level of denial.
What level of denial? If you're counting mass shootings differently, say so. If you're counting "inspired by Islam" to account for more than just "carried out by a Muslim", say so.

What specifically do you think we are denying?
This topic has come up before here. Long story short, no matter how you prefer to count the numbers, it turns out Islamic killers kill more people. You can try to fudge things around by contaminating the data by lowering the bar to include random crimes, and thus, make it hard to verify each event. You can ignore that they are a pretty small minority, and thus, a majority of shootings are not Islamic in nature in absolute numbers. But if you avoid highly motivated reasoning, it's reasonably obvious that, even in the US, Islam has a violence problem.
I didn't say Muslims are disproportionately peaceful according to the data, I said they're disproportionately averse to mass shootings, as mass shootings are what leady made a claim about.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:17 pm UTC

Belial wrote:There have been 133 in the US this year so far. How many are you asserting were inspired by islam?
Oddly enough according to the Wikipedia there are 130 non Muslim Americans for each Muslim American(assuming a population of 340 million). However none of those other mass murderers represent the targets of our war on terror. I'd rather the shooter be inspired by ISIS rather than part of a community predisposed to murder. The latter being the default belief for a lot of Americans, including Donald Trump. The third possibility that he was just plain crazy, while probably true, is lost in the noise. And there is no predictor that he would have acted in the fashion he did without that inspiration, and the examples of mass murder as portrayed by ISIS.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Belial » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:19 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote: The third possibility that he was just plain crazy, while probably true, is lost in the noise.


Don't pin this on the mentally ill. I can get those statistics out if you want, but it won't help your point.

The word you want is "homophobic". Virulently homophobic, and not in a way that is in any way unique to islamic influence.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby sardia » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:20 pm UTC

Crazy people are more likely to be victims of violence, they are less likely to cause violence. Just wanted that out there before we lock everyone with mental problems away.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:24 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Belial wrote:There have been 133 in the US this year so far. How many are you asserting were inspired by islam?
Oddly enough according to the Wikipedia there are 130 non Muslim Americans for each Muslim American(assuming a population of 340 million).
Where are you getting any of those numbers?

The Wikipedia articles I just checked said Muslims make up 0.9% of the US population, which is 323 million.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:26 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:My argument isn't that there are some Muslims who aren't homophobic, and therefore Islam doesn't cause homophobia. Rather, my argument is that it's a conceptual confusion to treat a religion as a monolith or ascribe causal powers to it.


Why is a religion unable to cause anything?

Is it special among power structures and beliefs? Do you believe that NO bad events(or indeed events at all) have been caused by belief in a religion?

Precisely the mistake I have been criticizing is the idea that Islam is "a belief," rather than something constituted by evolving/diverging standards of interpretation, practice, etc. that are compatible with a myriad of different beliefs.

Tyndmyr wrote:None of us give a crap what is "real", theologically. That's utterly irrelevant.

Despite your protestations to the contrary, it is utterly relevant. Lucrece has repeatedly appealed to the idea that Islam really teaches that people should be homophobic, despite the fact that many Muslims accept no such doctrine. He's practically taken on the mantle of an imam, telling us how the scriptures ought to be interpreted by any Real Boy Quran-thumping Muslim.

Once you do away with the idea that there's One True Way of interpreting the Quran, or One True Teaching of Islam on homosexuality, this business about Islam being "overridden" by some un-Islamic view on homosexuality is rightly seen as nonsense.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:30 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
morriswalters wrote:
Belial wrote:There have been 133 in the US this year so far. How many are you asserting were inspired by islam?
Oddly enough according to the Wikipedia there are 130 non Muslim Americans for each Muslim American(assuming a population of 340 million).
Where are you getting any of those numbers?

The Wikipedia articles I just checked said Muslims make up 0.9% of the US population, which is 323 million.


0.9% == 111 non-muslims for every muslim.

130 is on the same order of magnitude, I'd say somewhere between 110 and 130 non-muslims per muslim is probably correct.

130 non-muslims for every muslim == 0.7% FYI.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:31 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Old timey marriage required consummation. That whole "one flesh" bit. And was big on marriage involving cranking out the kids.

Not going to get into the homophobic foundations in religion again, but what you wrote is absolutely false and unfounded in Judaism. Lack of sex can be justifiable reason for a divorce in Judaism. Also, having sex is one way to claim marriage (although as mentioned, the specific descriptions are usually "lying with"). However, a marriage ceremony doesn't require consummation at any point, nor is it a required or mandatory part of married Jewish life.

Also, for those curious about religiously-sanctioned same-sex relationships in ancient times, here are a few citations and examples for further reading:
Spoiler:
Abu Nuwas, Muslim popular and celebrated poet who wrote explicitly about sex with men (and boys)
About a Catholic ritual almost exactly like marriage performed between two men.
This article has a quote by Rashi, one of the most famous and popular interpreters of the Bible (lived in 10th century CE) as saying the following:
"The nations are suspect for mishkav zachar and have the practice to single out a male for their sexual usage, yet they do not act so arrogantly as to give them a ketubah." This is often considered as evidence by historians of same-sex men's couples - if those were not common at the time then there would be no need to specify they can't give each other a ketubah (a Jewish marriage contract that is traditionally part of the Jewish marriage ceremony, but not the necessary part).
This article discusses Jewish homosexuality at length, including citing Daniel Boyarin's (noted Jewish scholar) book "Carnal Israel" where he claims Jews openly practiced homosexuality in ancient times.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:39 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
morriswalters wrote: The third possibility that he was just plain crazy, while probably true, is lost in the noise.


Don't pin this on the mentally ill. I can get those statistics out if you want, but it won't help your point.

The word you want is "homophobic". Virulently homophobic, and not in a way that is in any way unique to islamic influence.
I consider murder as a solution to any problem a defect of intellect, or crazy. I don't care what you call it. And being homophobic doesn't mean that you are murderous. Most people are constrained socially and never commit murder, or want to. The switch that should shunt the impulse to the side evidently doesn't work, or didn't in his case.
gmalivuk wrote:Where are you getting any of those numbers?
Islam by Country. Which gives a figure of 2,595,000 Muslim Americans. I pulled the other number from memory but will accept your number. which gives a figure of 124 Non Muslim Americans to each Muslim American.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Kalium_Puceon » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:53 pm UTC

I think the point of labelling this as homophobia first and religious second is important because, frankly, this could have been carried out by any religious homophobe. A lot of religions hate LGBT people, so it's not wrong to assume that this could have been any other mass shooter who choose to kill gay people.

Plus, if you're really wanting to terrorise America at large, you don't attack a group many of them want gone anyways.

Edit: and please, don't try and pin this on mental illness at large either because most mentally ill people don't murder either.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:05 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:One I have only seen here suggests that it's a bad translation resulting from a grammatical error in the original, and that the verse only prohibits lying with a man in the bed of a woman. I don't know enough about Hebrew to evaluate the argument, but it does seem to be the case that the word that gets translated to "as with" in most English versions of Leviticus gets translated to "bed" back in Genesis.


Context dependent translation. Lying in the bed of a woman is *also* a euphemism for sex. The specific English chosen is only to properly convey the meaning.
How is "lying with a man in the bed of a woman" a coherent euphemism for "fucking a man in the ass"?


The euphemism obviously refers to having sex with a woman. Forbidding doing that with a man is...fairly obviously talking about the act, not the mere location in which it takes place.

Shit, it's a little antiquated but "bedding" someone is still recognizably a euphemism for sex.

Also, if we're looking at context, it's definitely talking about sex. It's right between two other sex bans, and the exact same word is used elsewhere to explicitly describe sex. Additionally, it is never used to describe a bed as an object, it's merely describing lying/sleeping. Sure, many of those are ACTUALLY sleeping, but...cmon, this is not referring to naptime. That's what the "as with a woman" is clarifying.

I didn't say Muslims are disproportionately peaceful according to the data, I said they're disproportionately averse to mass shootings, as mass shootings are what leady made a claim about.


In the US, perhaps. Methodology changing, perhaps. However, I believe the general thrust of this argument was discussing overall violence, not a mere methodology change. So, we have examples like this...http://econbrowser.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/homegrownterrorism.png, which, while clearly trying to support a "muslims are not especially violent" narrative, are in fact indicating the opposite.

I note that Fort Hood shooting and stuff also provides a similar methodology, albeit with a different target. And we've certainly seen shootings in France, so even the methodology doesn't seem to be changing all that much, when considering trends elsewhere.

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:My argument isn't that there are some Muslims who aren't homophobic, and therefore Islam doesn't cause homophobia. Rather, my argument is that it's a conceptual confusion to treat a religion as a monolith or ascribe causal powers to it.


Why is a religion unable to cause anything?

Is it special among power structures and beliefs? Do you believe that NO bad events(or indeed events at all) have been caused by belief in a religion?

Precisely the mistake I have been criticizing is the idea that Islam is "a belief," rather than something constituted by evolving/diverging standards of interpretation, practice, etc. that are compatible with a myriad of different beliefs.


Call it whatever the hell you want, it's still killing people, and it still has a pretty horrible history when it comes to homophobia.

Yes, it may one day go through a similar evolution to Christianity, which has gotten somewhat better about killing people in the streets. Sometimes. In some places.

Greaaaat. That's no reason not to call it like it is. For either religion.

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:None of us give a crap what is "real", theologically. That's utterly irrelevant.

Despite your protestations to the contrary, it is utterly relevant. Lucrece has repeatedly appealed to the idea that Islam really teaches that people should be homophobic, despite the fact that many Muslims accept no such doctrine. He's practically taken on the mantle of an imam, telling us how the scriptures ought to be interpreted by any Real Boy Quran-thumping Muslim.

Once you do away with the idea that there's One True Way of interpreting the Quran, or One True Teaching of Islam on homosexuality, this business about Islam being "overridden" by some un-Islamic view on homosexuality is rightly seen as nonsense.


Your use of the word "many" boils down to a special pleading for avoiding actual statistics.

It is possible, I suppose, that someone might also be in the KKK without themselves being a racist, but I shall lose no sleep over calling the organization racist. When describing vast communities of people, we are necessarily speaking in statistics. Not every member of the faith may be homophobic, but if the vast majority are, the faith still has a problem.

Zohar wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Old timey marriage required consummation. That whole "one flesh" bit. And was big on marriage involving cranking out the kids.

Not going to get into the homophobic foundations in religion again, but what you wrote is absolutely false and unfounded in Judaism. Lack of sex can be justifiable reason for a divorce in Judaism. Also, having sex is one way to claim marriage (although as mentioned, the specific descriptions are usually "lying with"). However, a marriage ceremony doesn't require consummation at any point, nor is it a required or mandatory part of married Jewish life.


Please. What you just said supports my claim. Even with your modern viewpoint on the religion, it's *still* pretty biased towards "you marry a woman, you have sex and produce babies, who do the same".

You're extrapolating tolerance for gay marriage without ANY explicit text for it, or even mentioning it, because it's what you wish to believe. Where's the actual evidence? Do you have historical evidence that gay marriage was widely available in the bible? If it was, why is it never, ever mentioned? Why does every mention of marriage appear to assume a man and a woman?

What reasonable interpretation is there that men were allowed to marry one another, rather than the good ol' fashioned biblical interpretation of marriage existing between a man and his wives, with a few concubines and slaves on the side?

morriswalters wrote:I consider murder as a solution to any problem a defect of intellect, or crazy. I don't care what you call it. And being homophobic doesn't mean that you are murderous. Most people are constrained socially and never commit murder, or want to. The switch that should shunt the impulse to the side evidently doesn't work, or didn't in his case.


Murder is sort of different from mass murder. Mass murder of this sort is highly associated with some sort of basic instability. This isn't really the same as being mentally deficient. Someone can definitely have some sort of mental limitations without being unstable and dangerous in this fashion. I think maybe it's a language thing, where you're trying to express the instability thread that wends through these stories, and it's being read differently?

There's definitely a thread there, I think. Just...crazy isn't adequately precise. We end up using that word for many things, so it can be way too unclear for this.
Last edited by Tyndmyr on Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:12 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:10 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Please. What you just said supports my claim. Even with your modern viewpoint on the religion, it's *still* pretty biased towards "you marry a woman, you have sex and produce babies, who do the same".

Um, how? You said consummation is a requirement of "old timey marriage". At least in Judaism, it is not. Like, in no way is it a requirement. You don't have to consummate. At all. That does not support your claim. That contradicts it. You're wrong on that point. Completely wrong. As for your other points, I never claimed them? I never said same-sex marriage was popular during biblical times.
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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:12 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:When I first read of this (the initial BBC website article was 10 minutes old, with the attacker`s identity as yet unreleased) I assumed it was a white right-wing guy, to be honest. 'Murika, an' all, y'all...


I see this prior a lot, and it doesn't seem to be very accurate. Sure, they do some bad stuff, but they do not appear to be over-represented in terms of such events. The male part, sure. That's easy. The other identifiers, not so much.

If you didn't realuse, I was intentionally highlighting my (in this case) wrong assumptions that it was some brand of Timothy McVeigh or Eric Rudolph type.

(Not seen much more news (save for the newspaper headlines on display on the stands: "America's Bataclan", etc) so not sure how much various outlets are tending towards deranged lone-wolf and how much are going with the alternative. Or what Ibshould think, although I still tend to the former based on the earlier reports.)

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:17 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Please. What you just said supports my claim. Even with your modern viewpoint on the religion, it's *still* pretty biased towards "you marry a woman, you have sex and produce babies, who do the same".

Um, how? You said consummation is a requirement of "old timey marriage". At least in Judaism, it is not. Like, in no way is it a requirement. You don't have to consummate. At all. That does not support your claim. That contradicts it. You're wrong on that point. Completely wrong. As for your other points, I never claimed them? I never said same-sex marriage was popular during biblical times.


That's why you can get a divorce for it. Yes, yes, if nobody reports it or wants to kill off the marriage, duh, nothing happens. But that, or the more christian concept of annulment totally stem from the idea of a duty to have sex and make babies. Shit, Genesis specifically demands that you start making babies, and that thought permeates all manner of traditions and practices.

You're relying on very unlikely redefinitions, and whenever this is pointed out, relying on further unlikely redefinitions. The modern "oh, the bible is okay with gay marriage" interpretation, while probably better from a social standpoint, is definitely not the historical case. Let's not pretend that Christianity and Judaism haven't had certain historical problems with homophobia as well.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:21 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
morriswalters wrote:
Belial wrote:There have been 133 in the US this year so far. How many are you asserting were inspired by islam?
Oddly enough according to the Wikipedia there are 130 non Muslim Americans for each Muslim American(assuming a population of 340 million).
Where are you getting any of those numbers?

The Wikipedia articles I just checked said Muslims make up 0.9% of the US population, which is 323 million.


0.9% == 111 non-muslims for every muslim.

130 is on the same order of magnitude, I'd say somewhere between 110 and 130 non-muslims per muslim is probably correct.

130 non-muslims for every muslim == 0.7% FYI.

I know the numbers aren't completely out of the ballpark, I'm just confused about where they came from since they're all incorrect.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:24 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Call it whatever the hell you want, it's still killing people, and it still has a pretty horrible history when it comes to homophobia.

Sorry, am I supposed to be impressed by the argumentative strategy of ignoring my arguments and just reasserting your position in the face of criticism?

Tyndmyr wrote:Your use of the word "many" boils down to a special pleading for avoiding actual statistics.

It is possible, I suppose, that someone might also be in the KKK without themselves being a racist, but I shall lose no sleep over calling the organization racist. When describing vast communities of people, we are necessarily speaking in statistics. Not every member of the faith may be homophobic, but if the vast majority are, the faith still has a problem.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with "special pleading" here. Special pleading is when someone simultaneously upholds a standard while also asking to be personally exempt from it. To give a hypothetical example, it would be special pleading if someone went on for some pages of a discussion making unsupported generalizations about Muslims, but then suddenly decided on page four that everyone else needs to be citing statistics.

However, since you want statistics and apparently can't be bothered to inform yourself on the issue on which you've been pontificating, about 39% of American Muslims say that homosexuality should be socially accepted.

@gmal: Obviously you just take the number that Wikipedia gives you and then subtract all the ones that don't believe in Real Islam™.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:29 pm UTC

Um, no, actually, I'm not relying on any modern interpretations. And the lack of consummation has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion on gay marriage. Judaism simply does not require consummation as part of a marriage. I'm not sure why that concept is so difficult for you to accept? Can you find me a passage that says it has to happen? You claim having to have babies - do you somehow think old people aren't allowed to get married according to Judaism? Like, seriously, regardless of the discussion on gay marriage, you're just dead wrong.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:38 pm UTC

leady wrote:There should be 50 mass shootings between every Islamic inspired one in the US if it was random


Belial wrote:
leady wrote:There should be 50 mass shootings between every Islamic inspired one in the US if it was random


There have been 133 in the US this year so far. How many are you asserting were inspired by islam?

leady wrote:I'm not sure how to respond to that level of denial.


I do.

Every single time I've ended up reading the drivel you type, it's been barely connected to reality in any way, shape or form. Right there, you literally say "There should be 50 mass shootings for every one Islamic-inspired one" and in the face of data literally saying that, you call it denial.

The forum will be better as a whole without you.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:40 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
leady wrote:There should be 50 mass shootings between every Islamic inspired one in the US if it was random


There have been 133 in the US this year so far. How many are you asserting were inspired by islam?


Those numbers sound suspiciously like the oft -cited and oftener-discredited \r\gunsarecool reddit "mass shooting counter" which includes "mass shootings" where no one died and no firearms were even present.

Edit:not to posit any sort of space-squid involvement or anything. Longer post to follow on that subject.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:44 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
Belial wrote:
leady wrote:There should be 50 mass shootings between every Islamic inspired one in the US if it was random


There have been 133 in the US this year so far. How many are you asserting were inspired by islam?
Those numbers sound suspiciously like the oft -cited and oftener-discredited \r\gunsarecool reddit "mass shooting counter" which includes "mass shootings" where no one died and no firearms were even present.
Those numbers are explicitly sourced in the article to this page. Yes, it includes incidents where no one was killed, because something can be a shooting without being a murder.

If you have information on incidents included in that list that don't include firearms, feel free to share with the rest of the class.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Belial » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:50 pm UTC

Also I would posit that for these purposes, the differences between injuries and deaths are irrelevant because they don't speak to motive: those shooters were trying to kill folks, they just didn't quite manage to hit the head or heart.
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RE:US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:52 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:Those numbers sound suspiciously like the oft -cited and oftener-discredited \r\gunsarecool reddit "mass shooting counter" which includes "mass shootings" where no one died and no firearms were even present.

Edit:not to posit any sort of space-squid involvement or anything. Longer post to follow on that subject.


Yeah, you are right. We really need some CDC numbers on it to get some raw facts to debate.

OH WAIT.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:02 am UTC

Belial wrote:Also I would posit that for these purposes, the differences between injuries and deaths are irrelevant because they don't speak to motive: those shooters were trying to kill folks, they just didn't quite manage to hit the head or heart.


Or in the case of Boston Bombing, two world-class hospitals were close to the site, and an amazing set of doctors managed to treat the huge majority of people and save their lives.

The deaths vs injuries thing is probably about proximity to a Hospital in these sorts of cases. Gabby Giffords was saved from a gunshot wound to the head for example. Modern medicine is getting very good (as long as you're close enough to a world-class surgeon)
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:04 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I know the numbers aren't completely out of the ballpark, I'm just confused about where they came from since they're all incorrect.
That number is simple division. Your number of 323,000,000(total US Population according to you), divided by the number given by the Wikipedia article(2,595,000). Since my arithmetic is pitiful I use Win 10's calculator. Getting 124 Non Muslim Americans per Muslim American. The number itself has no particular meaning other than it was close to the ratio of mass murders by Non Muslim Americans as compared to Muslim Americans according to whats his names citation and your graphic. If there is something wrong with my calculator let me know. Otherwise y'all have fun.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby EdgarJPublius » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:30 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:
Belial wrote:
leady wrote:There should be 50 mass shootings between every Islamic inspired one in the US if it was random


There have been 133 in the US this year so far. How many are you asserting were inspired by islam?
Those numbers sound suspiciously like the oft -cited and oftener-discredited \r\gunsarecool reddit "mass shooting counter" which includes "mass shootings" where no one died and no firearms were even present.
Those numbers are explicitly sourced in the article to this page. Yes, it includes incidents where no one was killed, because something can be a shooting without being a murder.

If you have information on incidents included in that list that don't include firearms, feel free to share with the rest of the class.


The 372 number for last year comes from the reddit 'shooting tracker' which has since changed to the guns archive criteria that reports only 330 incidents for 2015. Presumably the other 42 incidents involved pellet guns instead of actual firearms.

Besides counting incidents by injury instead of fatalities, the gun violence archive also doesn't distinguish gang-related shooting incidents.

Most reputable sources, such as the FBI, the Congressional Research Service, the National Institute of Justice, as well as and that bastion of right-wing, pro-gun rhetoric; Mother Jones, all use more strict criteria and exclude gang related incidents when specifically discussing these kinds of indiscriminate mass-killings.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... otings-map
https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2014/s ... 0-and-2013

I've also posted previously that the CDC is not banned from reporting on firearm related phenomena, and has continued funding and publishing such research at a similar rate as to before they were barred from political advocacy.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/12/15/why ... ch-budget/
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby KnightExemplar » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:59 am UTC

US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting


Erm... can we get the title to something... more factual at least? I realize that the first title was flame-baity, but this title remains flame-bait except its from the other side.

Honestly, the "Islamist attack" label was preemptive last night. But at this point the man is confirmed to be a Muslim who has declared allegiance to ISIS. True, it doesn't have any actual connections to ISIS (pending further investigation), but the original topic title is more factual than the current one.

I figure if people were going to mess with the title, we should at least edit it towards a politically neutral title. EX: Orlando Nightclub Shooting thread, or something similar.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:38 am UTC

I suspect that if Diadem hadn't reported my post (about how the title wouldn't change back) for "abusing mod power", some higher-powered mod wouldn't have changed it to the current version.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Mauthe Dhoo » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:21 am UTC

...that seems a little petulant?

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Vahir » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:22 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I suspect that if Diadem hadn't reported my post (about how the title wouldn't change back) for "abusing mod power", some higher-powered mod wouldn't have changed it to the current version.


It's still petty. And partisan. How old are we?

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:34 am UTC

"Hate Crime leads to..." That's what I suggest (still... I mentioned the term before, albeit not as a title-change suggestion). I can't see anything objectionable with that against anybody who is not themselves that way inclined, themselves. And I'm not going to pander to their sensibilities.

Apart from anything else, I don't even understand the current version. Official US Government policy acting against LGBT rights caused this? That doesn't sound right, or in any way realistic, at all. Unless I'm misreading this, also.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:44 am UTC

Soupspoon wrote:Apart from anything else, I don't even understand the current version. Official US Government policy acting against LGBT rights caused this? That doesn't sound right, or in any way realistic, at all. Unless I'm misreading this, also.

I know the Huffington Post isn't the most scholarly of sites, but here's a start.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:48 am UTC

Vahir wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:I suspect that if Diadem hadn't reported my post (about how the title wouldn't change back) for "abusing mod power", some higher-powered mod wouldn't have changed it to the current version.


It's still petty. And partisan. How old are we?

You are free to leave. There are thousands if not millions of sites you can visit where they would rather consider the feelings of people who consider others subhuman as equally valid as those people wishing to simply exist as everyone else exists.

This is an open question for anyone - Would you like help being shown the door?

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:01 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Soupspoon wrote:Apart from anything else, I don't even understand the current version. Official US Government policy acting against LGBT rights caused this? That doesn't sound right, or in any way realistic, at all. Unless I'm misreading this, also.

I know the Huffington Post isn't the most scholarly of sites, but here's a start.

Ah.. See if it had been "State anti-LGBT policies..." I might have twigged. But that's State stuff, not United States stuff. (Except and until otherwise, by the lack of quashing such things at Federal level, however they do such things... What's the next due numbered Amendment?)

(Still not sure how Bathroom Bill backlashes caused this tragedy. I probably missed some oblique reference that the gunman mad, though. I'm a non-American, though, so many subtleties of US culture probably escape me, even after a couple of decades of online correspondence with all sorts of states-side acquaintances.)

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:05 am UTC

It's not *just* the bathroom bill. It's the jackass not signing marriage certificates despite that being her job (and not being the only one doing that, just the only one getting press about it.) It's the people putting Religious Protection laws in that sometimes do absolutely nothing because the acts they're making illegal are already covered by the First Amendment, and other times just pretty much fly in the face of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It's about countless other things attacking people for doing what they want with other consenting adults.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Belial » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:09 am UTC

Basically, the little homophobia, and even the big homophobia, is the soil you need to grow the terrifying, murderous homophobia. Without a climate of general shittiness toward LGBTQ people, this guy couldn't have happened.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:30 am UTC

I'm not wanting to press the question, but why then would someone wish to identify (in their own head!) with Daesh and commit such an act, if they are actually taking their primary motivation from such 'christian' Religious Right sources.

If the motiviation is the sight of two men openly kissing in public (as stated) then it is the overly-Liberal politics and social values in the US that is to 'blame', not the excessively Conservative ones. Hence my continuing confusion. I'm convinced I'm missing something, so don't mind my obvious errors, but just to document my thought processes, even as I let it lie.

(Almost. Belial's ninja covers the possible explanation of the guy's root philosophy, further warped as it might have been, just not the composition of the thread title where "<incident> leads to <results>" is how the reportage should surely go. Not without circumlocuting the issue and extrapolating beyond current knowledge. Using the term "leads" suggests a straight path between. However, over and out on this doubtless annoying diversion.)

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:48 am UTC

I believe you've confused this forum for a news organization.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Mauthe Dhoo » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:50 am UTC

SecondTalon and gmavivuk, I feel like I'm on the same side as you both in substance, for what it's worth. But this thread is really confusing as to the purpose of moderation on this discussion forum, and I don't understand y'alls conduct in presenting that position.

For instance, Belial, the point you make about hate being bred in a climate of general shittiness toward LGBTQ people has a lot of parallels to the criticisms leveled at Muslim culture in this thread. True, many of the comments about Islam go in weird other directions too. But ultimately, "culture controls beliefs and behavior" is inherent in your position and also, for instance, in Tyndmyr's aggressive condemnation of religion. If I were to dive feet first into this discussion thread and present my own beliefs about the world, I'd want to push back against your position from a politically progressive point of view that seems to have a lot in common with your own. And I honestly can't tell if I need to find the door instead of doing that.

Where is the line where I am considering the wrong people's feelings to be valid? The arguing is bleeding into the moderation, with the red text warnings and the title swaps and so on. I get the idea that this is a private forum, not a public service, and y'all can host what ever discussion you want, and block out whatever you don't. But I'm not sure what you do want people talking about in here. What is the point of discussing this tragedy?


Soupspoon - the idea is that native cultural hate of LGBTQ people was inculcated in the shooter, and that external cultural hate was just a convenient excuse. Since killing people is wrong, and so too is the hate that fueled that bad action, it would be the native cultural hate that is to blame rather than the target of that hate.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:57 am UTC

That's an excellent question, as half of this thread seems to be devoted to figuring out whether or not Jewish texts explictly mention homosexuality as a bad thing and a fair chunk of it seems to even have trouble deciding if something really bad even happened (as opposed to something kinda unpleasant).

There are hundreds of things that go in to a person deciding that shooting up people, particularly an area of celebration populated by a particular marginalized group, is a good idea. The thread so far seems to be wanting to blame the entirety of it on one single thing.

How about discussing something useful, like ways to attempt to prevent this sort of thing from happening again that don't involve gun control as that's an entirely different shitstorm of suck? Like how the fuck is a dude gonna live this goddamn long in America and lose his shit over two dudes making out? What the hell are we doing wrong that a person with that mindset still feels comfortable enough to live around the rest of society?
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby jseah » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:14 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:What the hell are we doing wrong that a person with that mindset still feels comfortable enough to live around the rest of society?

Uh, I would think that his actions indicate he's NOT comfortable living around the rest of society. Otherwise he wouldn't be shooting the rest, yes?

Or do I misunderstand you?
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