50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:47 pm UTC

As I've been at pains to say in this thread already, there is a big difference between saying that a lot of Muslims are homophobic and reifying "Islam" as a uniform source of homophobia.
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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby sardia » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:07 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
sardia wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/14/after-mass-shootings-republicans-make-it-easier-for-people-to-get-guns/
For those of you afraid that politicians will use this tragedy to pass gun laws, you're right. Except the people doing it are Republicans, and they respond by loosening gun laws. The affect on Democratic legislatures in statistically insignificant.


The fight is invariably picked by people trying to pass more gun control. Look at the media response. It's quite predictable.

This fight is then lost, yes. And Republicans cheerfully take whatever they can.

It's a depressing, predictable pattern at this point.


You didn't sound like you knew that gun laws loosen after a mass shooting. After each one, you usually post about how the left will leverage tragedies to get gun laws passed. Isn't that mindset incongruent with your belief that maybe the next big tragedy will hurt the gun industry? If anything, the paranoia is hurting customers because prices keep rising in response to a crackdown that never happens. I'd be pretty upset if someone was driving up prices year after year because they're 'afraid' of the world ending. After the first few years, I'd call them out on their bullshit. That, or it's a bubble.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby BattleMoose » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:16 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:As I've been at pains to say in this thread already, there is a big difference between saying that a lot of Muslims are homophobic and reifying "Islam" as a uniform source of homophobia.


Muslims overwhelmingly say that homosexual behavior is morally wrong.
(Not my words)

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/w ... report.pdf

In what sense are you suggesting there isn't a direct causal link between Islam and homophobia? Do you suppose its just a coinincidence that the vast majority of a specific religion/culture are much more homophobic than the others? Randomness of chance of a distribution?

Look, I have been very careful to attack Islam as a religion/culture in this. And not specific people. There are very many Muslim people in this world, I more than a few of them and of those that I know, the majority are very decent people. There are very many, very decent Muslim people. This however in no way excuses the extremely strong connection of Islam and violence towards LGBTQ people.

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Re: US Anti-LGBT policy lead to 50 dead in Orlando Nightclub Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:23 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:http://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-is-manufacturing-terrorism-cases-2016-6/

Its important to remember just where politics were last fucking week. In this article, it is argued that the FBI is doing too much and "entraps" individuals into committing crimes. And yet we have a case today where we have the FBI letting someone go. Because Omar had no direct connections to ISIS or other terror groups, and because the FBI couldn't pin anything on him.

People need to think about what the tactics the FBI should be using, and whether or not they're going too far. And also whether or not the tactics don't go far enough.


These are not necessarily at odds. One can be concerned about both a false positive rate AND a false negative rate. It's not really a linear line where there's only "too far" and "not far enough".

Granted, people saying things like that rights should be stripped while someone is under investigation are being kind of dumb about it. That's be frigging horrible from a rights standpoint, and it would ALSO not really work with the idea of a covert investigation. It's one of those impulses to "do something" that need to be curbed a bit to look at rationally.

Copper Bezel wrote:
I can agree that homophobia exists, but bathroom laws aren't making people want to beat up gay people.

Well, they're largely empowering people to harass trans people and people who "look trans", but yeah, they actually do help to fuel and enable hatred toward LGBT people in general.


Oh yeah, this is actually a really good example of how broader homophobia enables and normalizes more extreme actions. It's encouraging confrontation(because, how ELSE is it going to be enforced), and banning people from doing stuff. Laws of the "you shall not" variety like this tend to lean on force for enforcement.

Some people maybe don't need any encouragement to use more force.

Sure, it isn't relevant to *this* specific issue, but neither are handgun control laws and gun show sales, and people are talking about those.

CorruptUser wrote:Yeah, that's what I do want. Owning a gun should require at least as much training and restrictions as owning a car.


Owning a car pretty much requires showing up to the dealer with enough money. Or a vaguely decent credit score. Or a willingness to sign paperwork for high rates of interest. Mostly though, they'll sell a car to anybody.

Some training is required for use in public, which is roughly analogous to carry permits.

In most respects, owning a gun is already significantly more difficult than owning a car. I mean, no states have a waiting period to get a car, do they? Get to drive right off the lot with it.

And yeah, it's pretty irrelevant to this case. This fellow had no issue gaining access to car or gun, and wouldn't have under pretty much any past or proposed restrictions short of "ban 'em all".

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:A redefinition is not an argument. It doesn't change the fundamental nature of what's happening. You're avoiding the problem and talking around it, not disproving it.

My argument is not "a redefinition," and I don't accept that "the fundamental nature of what's happening" is what you and Lucrece have been claiming.

If you're going to keep accusing me of things like this, I expect that you'll substantiate your claims by saying what, specifically, you're objecting to.

Tyndmyr wrote:Ah, see, you gish galloped from Islam, to American Islam, and ignored that a healthy majority of those STILL don't accept that homosexuality should be socially accepted. 61% of people is a lot of people, and is totally justification for saying that they have a problem, as a community.

I'm sorry, you seem to have confused me with someone who says that no significant number of Muslims are homophobic. What I actually said, as you can easily verify by reading my second-last post in this discussion, is that many Muslims are not homophobic.

What you perceive as a "Gish gallop" is simply an illusion of motion produced by misplaced goalposts.


Let's refresh your memory. The fundamental nature of what is happening is that people are dying. We can observe that this happens disproportionately to LGBT folks. We can observe that Islam is responsible for a disproportionate amount of killing.

Label those things whatever you will, but they're still obviously problems. They're not exactly the same problem, but they *do* have a very obvious overlap.

KnightExemplar wrote:No. Those are simply jackholes who use laws from places they're not from.

If ISIS starts beheading people in Iraq, that doesn't make it right here. If some redneck state bans Gay Marriage, it doesn't make it right in my state. But jackholes will use world events as an excuse to be a jackhole. But in reality, they were a jackhole all along.


In large part, yes. But those sorts of jackholes are not evenly distributed, and horrible events like murder usually are not. So, culture and social norms do make a difference. Yeah, things leak across borders, and thus, a problem elsewhere can become a problem here....

But to some extent, people do *create* assholes, or at least, amplify their dickishness. This ain't just laws of course. Laws are a reflection of norms more than they are the cause of them...but they're still a sign of an underlying culture problem.

ucim wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:But recognize the influence and impact Islam Christianity has had in expressing revulsion for lgbtq people.

FTFY.

Why single out a specific (foreign) religion when it's a big part of the (default national) religion too?

Jose


I have absolutely no problem calling out Christianity, either, when it's being homophobic, and have done so repeatedly.

I do note that right now, by the numbers, Islam is more dangerous, so of course it takes center stage a lot, but of course we also shouldn't shy away from discussing other factual shortcomings, historical atrocities, etc.

sardia wrote:You didn't sound like you knew that gun laws loosen after a mass shooting. After each one, you usually post about how the left will leverage tragedies to get gun laws passed. Isn't that mindset incongruent with your belief that maybe the next big tragedy will hurt the gun industry? If anything, the paranoia is hurting customers because prices keep rising in response to a crackdown that never happens. I'd be pretty upset if someone was driving up prices year after year because they're 'afraid' of the world ending. After the first few years, I'd call them out on their bullshit. That, or it's a bubble.


They will TRY. And cmon, my predictions on that are both obvious, and invariably correct.

You've mistaken my views for your strawman beliefs of a generic gun owner. I routinely post that gun issues are a third rail topic that are a strategic error for Democrats to pursue.

Obama's the world's best gun salesman, maybe.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:37 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:In what sense are you suggesting there isn't a direct causal link between Islam and homophobia?

As far as I'm aware there's only one sense in which I could mean this.

BattleMoose wrote:Do you suppose its just a coinincidence that the vast majority of a specific religion/culture are much more homophobic than the others? Randomness of chance of a distribution?

It's certainly not a coincidence, but that doesn't mean that our only option for interpreting the data is "Islam causes homophobia." Another option is that homophobia and religious traditions are disseminated in similar ways.

Tyndmyr wrote:Let's refresh your memory. The fundamental nature of what is happening is that people are dying. We can observe that this happens disproportionately to LGBT folks. We can observe that Islam is responsible for a disproportionate amount of killing.

Sorry, am I supposed to be impressed by the argumentative strategy of ignoring my arguments and just reasserting your position in the face of criticism?
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby BattleMoose » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:43 pm UTC

As far as I'm aware there's only one sense in which I could mean this.


Actually you are only asserting there isn't. While everyone is aware that correlation doesn't mean causation, it does raise questions. Like why are the overwhelming majority of Muslims homophobic? Similarly are state sanctioned laws against LGBTQ people very strongly correlated to Islam. It behooves us to ask why.

Another option is that homophobia and religious traditions are disseminated in similar ways.


What ways? Judaism is on obvious example that contradicts your hypothesis. I was raised in a religious environment with all the associated traditions and I can assure you that homophobia wasn't being taught to me in any kind of sense or way that religion was.

Israel has one of the strongest religious traditions of any country and is remarkably progressive with respect to LGBTQ rights. Ireland too.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:51 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Actually you are only asserting there isn't.

Actually, I've given an argument for my position.

While everyone is aware that correlation doesn't mean causation, it does raise questions. Like why are the overwhelming majority of Muslims homophobic? Similarly are state sanctioned laws against LGBTQ people very strongly correlated to Islam. It behooves us to ask why.

Certainly. And there are many answers we can give to this "why" question, which is why it's important to think critically about the different possibilities rather than insisting on the first thing that pops into our heads.

What ways? Judaism is on obvious example that contradicts your hypothesis. I was raised in a religious environment with all the associated traditions and I can assure you that homophobia wasn't being taught to me in any kind of sense or way that religion was.

The hypothesis under consideration is not that everyone who teaches a religion will teach homophobia. Rather the hypothesis is that views on homosexuality (like other moral views) get passed down alongside religious traditions, so that views on homosexuality will not be randomly distributed vis-á-vis religion but will instead tend to maintain relatively stable patterns.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby BattleMoose » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:08 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:Rather the hypothesis is that views on homosexuality (like other moral views) get passed down alongside religious traditions, so that views on homosexuality will not be randomly distributed vis-á-vis religion but will instead tend to maintain relatively stable patterns.


Bingo.

And this tends to be specifically virulent with Islam. And while Christianity has had it time in the sun with regards to homophobia, western society has moved on. Or rather, is moving on. Dragging Christianity kicking and screaming into a world where people aer treated with inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby ucim » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:24 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
ucim wrote:Why single out a specific (foreign) religion when it's a big part of the (default national) religion too?
Because similar statistics don't hold true for Christianity [and]
Because there are many laws that exist today, that directly attack LGBTQ people, that stem directly from Islam.
What "statistics" are you referring to, that support the idea that Islam is the source of society's negative attitude towards LGBTQ people? What (US) laws that directly attack LGBTQ people "stem directly from Islam"?

Islam may have abhorrent beliefs and practices, but that's not what's under discussion. Rather, it is your contention that Islam is causing the United States to hate LGBTQ people.

Islam is not secretly running the country. Americans are, and Americans are quite capable of hatred on their own. Blaming it on a foreign influence borders on conspiracy theory.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby morriswalters » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:31 pm UTC

Not to want to pick at your idea, but if Christianity has been drug anywhere, the dragging was done by Christians.
BattleMoose wrote:And this tends to be specifically virulent with Islam.
Which leads back to the question, what do you do about it? Trump has more or less suggested a ban on immigration with whiffs of an idea of a registry for American Muslims.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby BattleMoose » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:45 pm UTC

ucim wrote:What "statistics" are you referring to,


The proportion of Muslims who view homosexuality as immoral.

Islam may have abhorrent beliefs and practices, but that's not what's under discussion. Rather, it is your contention that Islam is causing the United States to hate LGBTQ people.


Actually, its my contention that Islam is causing homophobia and violence towards the LGBTQ communities at large, not US specific at all. I haven't referenced the specific Orlando attack at all, well, only once to say that its impossible to conclude that Islam somehow caused it.

Islam is not secretly running the country. Americans are, and Americans are quite capable of hatred on their own. Blaming it on a foreign influence borders on conspiracy theory.


Somewhere along the lines the discussion became about much more than just the USA, the only country in the world.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:52 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Let's refresh your memory. The fundamental nature of what is happening is that people are dying. We can observe that this happens disproportionately to LGBT folks. We can observe that Islam is responsible for a disproportionate amount of killing.

Sorry, am I supposed to be impressed by the argumentative strategy of ignoring my arguments and just reasserting your position in the face of criticism?


I was specifically addressing your complaints. The one ignoring arguments here is you.

BattleMoose wrote:
As far as I'm aware there's only one sense in which I could mean this.


Actually you are only asserting there isn't. While everyone is aware that correlation doesn't mean causation, it does raise questions. Like why are the overwhelming majority of Muslims homophobic? Similarly are state sanctioned laws against LGBTQ people very strongly correlated to Islam. It behooves us to ask why.


Precisely. A strong correlation is an excellent reason to investigate. See if you can find a causal link to the doctrine as preached, perhaps.

BattleMoose wrote:
Another option is that homophobia and religious traditions are disseminated in similar ways.


What ways? Judaism is on obvious example that contradicts your hypothesis. I was raised in a religious environment with all the associated traditions and I can assure you that homophobia wasn't being taught to me in any kind of sense or way that religion was.

Israel has one of the strongest religious traditions of any country and is remarkably progressive with respect to LGBTQ rights. Ireland too.


It's as if there's a struggle to make them all treated as "equal", because there are some people with problematic beliefs in every religion. Sure, but the rates are all different. Startlingly so at times. That's, by definition, not equal. So, this hypothesis runs into obvious initial problems.

ucim wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:
ucim wrote:Why single out a specific (foreign) religion when it's a big part of the (default national) religion too?
Because similar statistics don't hold true for Christianity [and]
Because there are many laws that exist today, that directly attack LGBTQ people, that stem directly from Islam.
What "statistics" are you referring to, that support the idea that Islam is the source of society's negative attitude towards LGBTQ people? What (US) laws that directly attack LGBTQ people "stem directly from Islam"?

Islam may have abhorrent beliefs and practices, but that's not what's under discussion. Rather, it is your contention that Islam is causing the United States to hate LGBTQ people.

Islam is not secretly running the country. Americans are, and Americans are quite capable of hatred on their own. Blaming it on a foreign influence borders on conspiracy theory.

Jose


No conspiracy necessary. Nor is "running the country" necessary, nor has it been proposed by anyone.

But maaaaybe the homophobic attitudes of the religion have *something* to do with the guy killing gays in the name of that religion.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:06 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I was specifically addressing your complaints.

Obviously you were not. You do not quote or respond to any of my complaints, but simply restate your position, including the disputed claim that Islam causes homophobic violence, which you now term an "observation." Anyone can easily verify this by reading the remarks in question, which you yourself quote in full, so I don't know whom you're trying to fool.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:20 pm UTC

Either all of us are idiots, and failing to read what you so brilliant wrote in a correct fashion....or....you have communicated your intent poorly.

At this point, most of your posts seem to center around accusing others of failing to understand you.

So far as I can tell, your intended central point appears to be...

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:As I've been at pains to say in this thread already, there is a big difference between saying that a lot of Muslims are homophobic and reifying "Islam" as a uniform source of homophobia.


But nobody actually gives a shit if it's uniform or not. If a shitload of Muslims are homophobic, then, yeah, Islam's a source of homophobia. Quibbling about uniformity isn't important.

Nobody here is after the strawman of "all Muslims bad".

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:30 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:If a shitload of Muslims are homophobic, then, yeah, Islam's a source of homophobia.

Wow.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:31 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:As I've been at pains to say in this thread already, there is a big difference between saying that a lot of Muslims are homophobic and reifying "Islam" as a uniform source of homophobia.


Muslims overwhelmingly say that homosexual behavior is morally wrong.
(Not my words)

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/w ... report.pdf

In what sense are you suggesting there isn't a direct causal link between Islam and homophobia? Do you suppose its just a coinincidence that the vast majority of a specific religion/culture are much more homophobic than the others? Randomness of chance of a distribution?

Look, I have been very careful to attack Islam as a religion/culture in this. And not specific people. There are very many Muslim people in this world, I more than a few of them and of those that I know, the majority are very decent people. There are very many, very decent Muslim people. This however in no way excuses the extremely strong connection of Islam and violence towards LGBTQ people.


This argument is really baffling in a thread dealing with a specifically American tragedy. Whether or not Islam tends to be correlated with homophobia is rather irrelevant in the American context, since Islam is not, nor has it ever been, in a situation of particular influence in the culture or political life of the nation.

The dominant culture and belief system in the United States is Christian. The overwhelming majority of lawmakers, at all levels of government, are Christian. Acceptance of homosexuality among Christians is on the rise, but it's still only a thin majority who are okay with it, and attitudes have been shifting fairly rapidly within the last 10 years, and indeed, Americans Muslims are more accepting of homosexuality than American Evangelical Christians.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:36 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:If a shitload of Muslims are homophobic, then, yeah, Islam's a source of homophobia.

Wow.


Wow, what? Isn't this obvious?

A religion is only the people within it and their actions. No more, no less.

Statistically speaking, Islam has a homophobia problem. This includes in the US, though to a lesser degree than elsewhere.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby BattleMoose » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:44 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:This argument is really baffling in a thread dealing with a specifically American tragedy.


You say American tragedy I say homosexual tragedy. If talking about sources of homophobia is baffling to you then be baffled.

You understand that there are Americans who have been effectively celebrating this event, right?

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:53 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:This argument is really baffling in a thread dealing with a specifically American tragedy.


You say American tragedy I say homosexual tragedy. If talking about sources of homophobia is baffling to you then be baffled.


In the specific context of the United States and in particular, legislative efforts in that country to restrict homosexual, or hate crimes against homosexuals, the overwhelming majority of these are done by Christians.

You understand that there are Americans who have been effectively celebrating this event, right?


You mean this guy?

Pastor Roger Jimenez from Verity Baptist Church in Sacramento told his congregation that Christians “shouldn’t be mourning the death of 50 sodomites.”

“People say, like: ‘Well, aren’t you sad that 50 sodomites died?’ ” Jimenez said, referencing the initial death toll in Orlando, which authorities later clarified included 49 victims plus the gunman. “Here’s the problem with that. It’s like the equivalent of asking me — what if you asked me: ​’Hey, are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?’

“Um, no, I think that’s great. I think that helps society. You know, I think Orlando, Fla., is a little safer tonight.”

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby ucim » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:10 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
ucim wrote:What "statistics" are you referring to,
The proportion of Muslims who view homosexuality as immoral.
...which is pretty much irrelevant to the issue of causation, which is what you claimed.

BattleMoose wrote:Actually, its my contention that Islam is causing homophobia and violence towards the LGBTQ communities at large, not US specific at all.
The context of the topic, (and in fact the topic itself), is US specific. In fact, it's related to the Orlando shooting. Yes, there are larger issues, but in this thread these issues are being discussed in the context of the Orlando shooting.

Tyndmyr wrote:But maaaaybe the homophobic attitudes of the religion have *something* to do with the guy killing gays in the name of that religion.
Yes, maybe, in this case. But that's not the contention I was objecting to. What I'm countering is the statement that Islam is what causes homophobia in this country.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby BattleMoose » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:18 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:
ucim wrote:What "statistics" are you referring to,
The proportion of Muslims who view homosexuality as immoral.
...which is pretty much irrelevant to the issue of causation, which is what you claimed.


Firstly, I never claimed causation. And secondly, correlation is not irrelevant at all, in fact, it tells you exactly where to look for causation.

but in this thread these issues are being discussed in the context of the Orlando shooting.


And that's where I started. That the homophobic ideas relating to Islam help create a context that can manifest in violence against gay people.

What I'm countering is the statement that Islam is what causes homophobia in this country.


How do you know that?

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby morriswalters » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:22 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:But nobody actually gives a shit if it's uniform or not. If a shitload of Muslims are homophobic, then, yeah, Islam's a source of homophobia. Quibbling about uniformity isn't important.

Nobody here is after the strawman of "all Muslims bad".
You do realize that if Islam is the source of homophobia, and if homophobia is bad, then by definition all Muslims must be bad, since all Muslims must believe in Islam.

The comparative question is, why has Christianity moved in a more Liberal direction as compared to Islam at present?

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:49 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:But nobody actually gives a shit if it's uniform or not. If a shitload of Muslims are homophobic, then, yeah, Islam's a source of homophobia. Quibbling about uniformity isn't important.

Nobody here is after the strawman of "all Muslims bad".
You do realize that if Islam is the source of homophobia, and if homophobia is bad, then by definition all Muslims must be bad, since all Muslims must believe in Islam.

The comparative question is, why has Christianity moved in a more Liberal direction as compared to Islam at present?


If you want to talk to a strawman argument instead of what I actually said, then I suppose go nuts. But your inferences are not mine. Particularly when you jump from "if homophobia is bad, then all Muslims must be bad". Islam describes the faith as a whole. If a faith is particularly disposed to bad thing x, then...yes, that faith has a problem. Stop focusing on trying to get to "all x are evvvvul". Stop making the logical error you're accusing your opposition of making.


Let's ditch weasel words like "Liberal", since I am not sure that US Christianity is actually terribly liberal. It's just gotten somewhat less homophobic in general. And even that isn't universal. Some denominations are much quicker to set aside this particular hatred than others(or never cared as much to begin with). In general, your hard line fundamentalists are a lot less tolerant than say, Universalists or the like.

Eyeballing it, it looks like within each faith, the hard line, rule-driven, fundamentalist sorts are statistically more homophobic than average. Yeah, the baseline for each religion is different, but this trend is obviously pretty consistent.

Religion is also diminishing in many first world countries, and tends to roughly correspond to increased tolerance for LGBT folks. In general, the faithless seem less bothered than religious people on average.

So, at least one trend is that people are just caring about Christianity a lot less than they used to, and while they may still identify as Christian, they are...less Christian. They stop doing Christian things, such as going to church, and hating gay people. On the broad scale, it isn't so much that Christianity suddenly became tolerant, as Christianity began to die*.

Islam is not dying yet.

*http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-mcswain/why-nobody-wants-to-go-to_b_4086016.html

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby morriswalters » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:22 pm UTC

I don't know about straw men, nor your argument. I directly quoted you and used a dictionary.
Tyndmyr wrote:If a faith is particularly disposed to bad thing x, then...yes, that faith has a problem. Stop focusing on trying to get to "all x are evvvvul". Stop making the logical error you're accusing your opposition of making.
You didn't say disposed, you said source. The water from a poisoned well is no less poisoned for being in a bucket away from the well. If Islam is the source than adherents of Islam are no different from the poisoned water in the bucket. They are after all Islam.

The point of this is to say that people and Religion are two separate things. A Christian who supports LGBT, who is not homophobic, has made an internal choice to interpret the Bible in such a way as to let him believe what he thinks is right. And this is not true everywhere nor is the move to tolerance for Christians universal. See Africa for instance. So what makes intolerance acceptable and why are American Muslims more tolerant?

Tyndmyr wrote:Let's ditch weasel words like "Liberal"
By the way I used liberal as an adjective not as a political position.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby ucim » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:38 pm UTC

@BattleMoose: You ask the following: "In what sense are you suggesting there isn't a direct causal link between Islam and homophobia?" I think it's fair to extrapolate from this in its context that you do think there is a direct casual link between Islam and homophobia. Further, it's not unreasonable to presume that you go further, thinking that this causal link is between Islam and homophobia in the US, since you bring it up in the context of a significant US news event.

To say Islam is homophobic is one thing. I agree with that thing (without putting too fine a spin on the semantics). But it's not the cause of homophobia. It's just one (of many) vectors.

I would posit that the root cause is the social and evolutionary need for an "us vs them" mentality. Religion provides this, as does nationalism, homophobia, mysogeny, and many other things that attract and cultivate the same mindset. They may reinforce each other, but I don't think one causes the other.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Belial » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:46 pm UTC

I think it's worth pointing out that if the shooter were actually a practicing muslim, even if he was the most homophobic piece of shit on earth (WHICH HE WAS), he probably wouldn't be committing murders in the middle of Ramadan, when you're not even supposed to be holding grudges. You can't go on and on about how religious doctrine and practice played into this and then just...skip over the part where the shooter in question openly violated it.

He was just a homophobe, and a cop fetishist. He was into violence, authority, and hatred and at the end he tried to attach that hatred to something bigger that he didn't have any ties to or understanding of.

But, y'know, one side wants to keep shifting the focus from homophobia (which exists in spades in our *secular* culture) to islam, so that they can keep blocking the rights of the victims they claim to care about, without noticing the hypocrisy.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby sardia » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:47 pm UTC

Trump just declared he wants the NRAs blessing to take guns away from Muslims. What are the odds he backs down like he did with abortion?

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Belial » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:56 pm UTC

He and Clinton have also both said we need to increase our bombing campaigns against ISIS in response to this massacre of....people those candidates historically don't care about....by a person unconnected to ISIS.

Sigh.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby SDK » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:04 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I think it's worth pointing out that if the shooter were actually a practicing muslim, even if he was the most homophobic piece of shit on earth (WHICH HE WAS), he probably wouldn't be committing murders in the middle of Ramadan, when you're not even supposed to be holding grudges. You can't go on and on about how religious doctrine and practice played into this and then just...skip over the part where the shooter in question openly violated it.

ISIS did call on their followers to attack during Ramadan, "to make it a month of calamity everywhere for nonbelievers… especially for the fighters and supporters of the caliphate in Europe and America.”

"According to Islamic practice, sacrifice during Ramadan can be considered more valuable than that made at other times, so a call to martyrdom during the month may hold a special allure to some."

Apparently the call was made specifically to lone wolf attackers too. The ISIS spokesman said, "lone wolf attacks in the US and Europe were “dearer to us than the biggest action by us” in Iraq and Syria."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 72791.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 42296.html
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Belial » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:11 pm UTC

Sure, but it's previously been established by just about every other muslim that ISIS are terrible, terrible muslims.

(which is probably obvious from the fact that the majority of their victims are other muslims)
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby SDK » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:14 pm UTC

Uh, yeah, sure. If you don't want to consider the members of ISIS as practicing muslims, then you're good to go.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:14 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:I don't know about straw men, nor your argument. I directly quoted you and used a dictionary.
Tyndmyr wrote:If a faith is particularly disposed to bad thing x, then...yes, that faith has a problem. Stop focusing on trying to get to "all x are evvvvul". Stop making the logical error you're accusing your opposition of making.
You didn't say disposed, you said source. The water from a poisoned well is no less poisoned for being in a bucket away from the well. If Islam is the source than adherents of Islam are no different from the poisoned water in the bucket. They are after all Islam.


Not every drop in a poisoned bucket is poison. All that matters is that the overall concentration is too high.

The point of this is to say that people and Religion are two separate things. A Christian who supports LGBT, who is not homophobic, has made an internal choice to interpret the Bible in such a way as to let him believe what he thinks is right. And this is not true everywhere nor is the move to tolerance for Christians universal. See Africa for instance. So what makes intolerance acceptable and why are American Muslims more tolerant?


I believe my earlier theory neatly answers all of these.

ucim wrote:I would posit that the root cause is the social and evolutionary need for an "us vs them" mentality. Religion provides this, as does nationalism, homophobia, mysogeny, and many other things that attract and cultivate the same mindset. They may reinforce each other, but I don't think one causes the other.


Yes, yes, the ultimate cause of everything is the initial starting conditions of the universe and time.

Finding the proximate cause is still how you fix things.

Belial wrote:I think it's worth pointing out that if the shooter were actually a practicing muslim, even if he was the most homophobic piece of shit on earth (WHICH HE WAS), he probably wouldn't be committing murders in the middle of Ramadan, when you're not even supposed to be holding grudges.


Yes, yes, I'm sure every other Islamic terrorist entirely stops for Ramadan.

sardia wrote:Trump just declared he wants the NRAs blessing to take guns away from Muslims. What are the odds he backs down like he did with abortion?


God, he's dumb.

Well, not dumb, exactly. Just awful. But very awful.

Belial wrote:He and Clinton have also both said we need to increase our bombing campaigns against ISIS in response to this massacre of....people those candidates historically don't care about....by a person unconnected to ISIS.

Sigh.


Of all the people to throw under the bus, I am least concerned about them.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:16 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Wow, what? Isn't this obvious?

A religion is only the people within it and their actions. No more, no less.

It's obviously false that this is what people ordinarily mean when they talk about Islam doing this or that.

"How many hamburgers has Islam eaten in the last year?"
"Islam believes that Abu Bakr was the legitimate successor of Muhammad, although Islam also stringently denies this."
"Has Islam now, or has it ever been, a member of the Communist Party?"

It makes sense to talk about groups of people in this way, but we ordinarily distinguish between groups of people and the features that those groups have in common.

Now, if what you mean by "Islam causes violence" is really "Homophobic Muslims cause violence," then you ought to say that. But then this is precisely the manner of speaking which I've been advocating from the start.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby cphite » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:17 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I think it's worth pointing out that if the shooter were actually a practicing muslim, even if he was the most homophobic piece of shit on earth (WHICH HE WAS), he probably wouldn't be committing murders in the middle of Ramadan, when you're not even supposed to be holding grudges. You can't go on and on about how religious doctrine and practice played into this and then just...skip over the part where the shooter in question openly violated it.


That may be true for moderate, mainstream Muslims... groups like ISIS consider Ramadan to be a month of conquest and jihad. They have no qualms about killing during Ramadan. In fact, for many years now, violence and crime has tended to actually increase - in some cases dramatically - during the month of Ramadan in places where groups like ISIS, al Queda, and the like are present.

Christians aren't allowed to murder any time of the year - and yet people who consider themselves devoutly Christian occasionally do. Often rationalized in some bizarre manner to make it okay.

He was just a homophobe, and a cop fetishist. He was into violence, authority, and hatred and at the end he tried to attach that hatred to something bigger that he didn't have any ties to or understanding of.

But, y'know, one side wants to keep shifting the focus from homophobia (which exists in spades in our *secular* culture) to islam, so that they can keep blocking the rights of the victims they claim to care about, without noticing the hypocrisy.


Does it really have to be one or the other?

Trying to argue away the religious aspect is no different than trying to argue away the homophobia aspect. The evidence points to it being both. We have reason to believe that he was a homophobe; and we also have reason to believe that he as a radical Islamist. For one thing, he was apparently considering an attack on Disney instead of on this club... which suggests that homophobia was not an exclusive motive.

Based on all that's come to light, he was almost certainly a homophobe - but may have also been gay. And he at the very least sympathized and idolized radical Islam. It seems reasonable that some mixture of the three led to him doing what he did.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby morriswalters » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:40 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Not every drop in a poisoned bucket is poison.
Did you really write that? :lol:

Well anyway I surrender.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby ucim » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:42 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
ucim wrote:I would posit that the root cause is the social and evolutionary need for an "us vs them" mentality. Religion provides this, as does nationalism, homophobia, mysogeny, and many other things that attract and cultivate the same mindset. They may reinforce each other, but I don't think one causes the other.
Yes, yes, the ultimate cause of everything is the initial starting conditions of the universe and time.

Finding the proximate cause is still how you fix things.

No, it's not. Finding the proximate cause is perhaps how you get elected. But mistaking the proximate cause for the root cause is how you.. er... cause more problems than you solve.

The point I was making ("us vs them" mentality) is that just because two trends coexist does not mean that one causes the other. In this particular case, I would say that one did not cause the other. Both were expressions of the same thing: Islam vs infidel is an "us/them" thing, and so is LGBTQ vs "normal people". And attacking Islam (instead of home-grown bigotry) as the cause of LGBTQ issues is itself another "us/them" thing, since Islam is safely a "them".

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Belial » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:45 pm UTC

cphite wrote:Does it really have to be one or the other?


Yeah, it super does. Because if there's anything every conversation about this has proven it's that people, especially shitty conservative homophobes, only want to focus on one of these things.

Specifically, the one that doesn't make them culpable.

But hey, would anyone like to compare the rate of homophobic violence in america to the rate of islam-inspired violence in america (start with an average of about 1200 anti-LGBTQ hate crimes a year and work from there) ? There are a *fuckton* more goodhearted, nonviolent, generally decent muslims in america than there are goodhearted, nonviolent, decent homophobes. Basically by definition. So why are we focused on that part of his identity which, according to his family and his ex-wife, wasn't even a big deal for him, and which definitely wasn't the biggest predictor of violence in his personality.

I mean, I know why.

Tyndmyr wrote:
Belial wrote:He and Clinton have also both said we need to increase our bombing campaigns against ISIS in response to this massacre of....people those candidates historically don't care about....by a person unconnected to ISIS.

Sigh.


Of all the people to throw under the bus, I am least concerned about them.


Yeah, no, because bombing campaigns are always super discriminate and definitely not the cause of the sort of unrest that leads to groups like ISIS in the first place. And leveraging the deaths of people you historically hate and are only now pretending to empathize with in order to further your own agenda is super respectful.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby cphite » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:06 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
cphite wrote:Does it really have to be one or the other?


Yeah, it super does. Because if there's anything every conversation about this has proven it's that people, especially shitty conservative homophobes, only want to focus on one of these things.

Specifically, the one that doesn't make them culpable.


I'm not interested in what shitty conservative homophobes want to focus on, or why - it really doesn't make a difference in terms of what actually happened in this specific case, or what his actual motivations were.

But hey, would anyone like to compare the rate of homophobic violence in america to the rate of islam-inspired violence in america (start with an average of about 1200 anti-LGBTQ hate crimes a year and work from there) ? There are a *fuckton* more goodhearted, nonviolent, generally decent muslims in america than there are goodhearted, nonviolent, decent homophobes. Basically by definition. So why are we focused on that part of his identity which, according to his family and his ex-wife, wasn't even a big deal for him, and which definitely wasn't the biggest predictor of violence in his personality.


Because based on what information has come forth, it was a factor. The guy made threats on multiple occasions that were based on his religion. Maybe he was bullshitting - but it still happened. The guy used religion as an excuse to beat his ex-wife... again, maybe he was bullshitting - but it still happened. And, it's come to light that he was originally planning to attack a theme park which has very little clear relation to homophobia - again, for religious reasons. And sure, he may have been bullshitting about that too.

It may not have been the biggest factor in what he did - and it's entirely possible that his religious beliefs were largely for show. On the other hand, it's also possible that his interpretation of Islam is what led to his bigotry. The point is, what little history the asshole had prior to this attack involved his religion, or at least what he claimed it to be, so ignoring it makes little sense.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby mcd001 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:10 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:they are...less Christian. They stop doing Christian things, such as going to church, and hating gay people.

Sorry, hating gay people is not now, never has been, and never will be a Christian thing. Christians are commanded (by Christ himself) to love their neighbors (Matthew 22:36-40). *ALL* their neighbors. We even have to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44), which is a feat almost impossible to us mere mortals. Yes, there are Christians who hate gays, but this is a sin in the eyes of God and does not conform to Christian doctrine. There are also gays who hate Christians. Does this make hating Christians a 'gay' thing?

I think not; it makes it a *human* thing. The cure for hatred is more Christianity, not less. Before you can claim Christianity is a source of gay-hatred, you need to show me where in the bible Christians are commanded to do so. (Source the New Testament, please. Christians believe that Christ's teachings supersede Old Testament law.)

The other argument I expect to get in support of the 'Christians-hate-gays' myth is that Christians believe homosexuality is a sin. Yes, its true that many (maybe most?) Christian denominations teach this. This would mean that all gay people are sinners, but then so are all Christians. (Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God) I know it's no fun to be called out as a sinner, so I can appreciate that this can lead to resentment and push-back from people who don't want to change. I also understand the anger or anguish from people who believe this is the way God made them and that they don't have a choice. So if I point out that they're doing something I believe is wrong, that doesn't mean I hate them, anymore than someone on this forum hates *me* when they point out things I said that they disagree with.

I am also sympathetic to Christians (and there are some) who interpret the bible in such a way that homosexuality is not a sin. They may even be right; I don't know how much of being gay is genetic or how much is environment. I don't know how much is nature and how much is nurture. I don't know, and I don't care, because we are all human beings created in the image of God. My heart breaks at the deaths and woundings in Orlando, and I wish peace, healing, and God's blessings on the victims and their families. All of them.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:57 pm UTC

mcd001 wrote:Sorry, hating gay people is not now, never has been, and never will be a Christian thing. Christians are commanded (by Christ himself) to love their neighbors (Matthew 22:36-40). *ALL* their neighbors. We even have to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44), which is a feat almost impossible to us mere mortals. Yes, there are Christians who hate gays, but this is a sin in the eyes of God and does not conform to Christian doctrine. There are also gays who hate Christians. Does this make hating Christians a 'gay' thing?

The other argument I expect to get in support of the 'Christians-hate-gays' myth is that Christians believe homosexuality is a sin. Yes, its true that many (maybe most?) Christian denominations teach this. This would mean that all gay people are sinners, but then so are all Christians. (Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God) I know it's no fun to be called out as a sinner, so I can appreciate that this can lead to resentment and push-back from people who don't want to change. I also understand the anger or anguish from people who believe this is the way God made them and that they don't have a choice. So if I point out that they're doing something I believe is wrong, that doesn't mean I hate them, anymore than someone on this forum hates *me* when they point out things I said that they disagree with.


I think the problem with this line of reasoning is that many churches (including the Church) have a tendency to focus on this particular sin (and a few other sexual sins) as being a really high priority problem whereas they tend to give a pass to a whole host of other things, including a lot of other things that the Bible has an awful lot more to say about--our entire economic system is built on sin (greed and envy, basically), yet it's pretty rare to hear Christians complain about the evils of capitalism. When you go around saying "Everyone is a sinner, but only YOUR sins are the ones that matter", that tends to undermine the message.


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