50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

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50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Woofsie » Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:07 pm UTC

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/12/us/or ... -shooting/

A gay nightclub here was the scene early Sunday of the worst terror attack in U.S. history since 9/11.
* 50 people were killed inside the Pulse club and at least 53 people were injured, police say.
* The gunman was Omar Mateen of Ft. Pierce, Florida, a law enforcement source told CNN.
* Orlando police shot and killed Mateen.
"It's appears he was organized and well-prepared," Orlando Police Chief John Mina said early Sunday. The shooter had an assault-type weapon, a handgun and "some type of (other) device on him."


Orlando authorities said they consider the violence an act of domestic terror. The FBI is involved. While investigators are exploring all angles, they "have suggestions the individual has leanings towards (Islamic terrorism), but right now we can't say definitely," said Ron Hopper, assistant special agent in charge of the FBI's Orlando bureau.


This is going to be a political shit show.

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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Dr34m(4+(h3r » Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:32 pm UTC

I feel like the Muslim thing will lead to softening of moderate conservative views towards gays. That in turn will promote further normalization of homosexuality and further advances in gay rights. This in turn will make America look even more evil to radical religious groups. Was this intentional do you think, or was the thought process literally just "Gay bad, kill the gay"

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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:10 pm UTC

Of course they're openly calling it terrorism when the shooter is Muslim...
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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby KnightExemplar » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:12 pm UTC

Dr34m(4+(h3r wrote:I feel like the Muslim thing will lead to softening of moderate conservative views towards gays. That in turn will promote further normalization of homosexuality and further advances in gay rights. This in turn will make America look even more evil to radical religious groups. Was this intentional do you think, or was the thought process literally just "Gay bad, kill the gay"


I'm pretty sure the thought process literally was just "Gay Bad, kill the gay".

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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Mutex » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:26 pm UTC

It was mentioned by the FBI he had ISIS sympathies, no known connections though. So it seems more like a lone-wolf right-winger nut than an actual terror attack.

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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:29 pm UTC

What is it that you think "terror attack" means, exactly?
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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby K-R » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:36 pm UTC

Orlando isn't really anywhere near Tallahassee, is it?

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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Lazar » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:49 pm UTC

K-R wrote:Orlando isn't really anywhere near Tallahassee, is it?

No, it's about 250 miles away.
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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Mutex » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:54 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:What is it that you think "terror attack" means, exactly?


Using terror to try to change, for example, a country's government policy. Why, what do you think it means? Or do you think that was the intent here?

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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:02 pm UTC

I think that when the FBI called it domestic terrorism, they were probably using the FBI definition rather than yours.

It was an act that appeared "intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping."

Note the "or".
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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Zohar » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:06 pm UTC

Can we PLEASE not call this an Islamist attack? The shooter was (perhaps) Muslim, but from what's described so far it's clear it's his homophobic hatred that led him to do it. It's a hate crime, not a religious-based attack.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Lazar » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:13 pm UTC

And remember, my friends, future events such as these will affect you in the future.

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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Mutex » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:30 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I think that when the FBI called it domestic terrorism, they were probably using the FBI definition rather than yours.

It was an act that appeared "intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping."

Note the "or".


Well my definition was loosely given off the top of my head, hence the "for example" - the key aspect is the coercion. Yes, intimidation is also part of the FBI definition, is that what you think was intended by this act? Not really sure what your point is. My point was that this act was probably motivated by hatred more than anything else, given the statements given by the father. (EDIT: Although the link posted by Lazar while I was writing this paints a different picture.)

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:37 pm UTC

My point was that you mistakenly seem to believe it's only terrorism if it's linked to some larger terrorist organization.

If blowing up a bomb on a bus full of the sort of people you hate is terrorism, then so is opening fire in a nightclub full of the sort of people you hate.

What does being "motivated by hatred more than anything else" have to do with anything?
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Mutex » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:45 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:My point was that you mistakenly seem to believe it's only terrorism if it's linked to some larger terrorist organization.


Ah, no, I don't think that at all. Maybe you thought that because I posted he had no known actual links to terror organisations.

gmalivuk wrote:If blowing up a bomb on a bus full of the sort of people you hate is terrorism, then so is opening fire in a nightclub full of the sort of people you hate.


Of course it is. I've no idea what you're getting at here.

gmalivuk wrote:What does being "motivated by hatred more than anything else" have to do with anything?


Well, it doesn't meet the definition of terrorism that you posted yourself.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:48 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:If blowing up a bomb on a bus full of the sort of people you hate is terrorism, then so is opening fire in a nightclub full of the sort of people you hate.

Of course it is. I've no idea what you're getting at here.

gmalivuk wrote:What does being "motivated by hatred more than anything else" have to do with anything?

Well, it doesn't meet the definition of terrorism that you posted yourself.
"Motivated by hatred" and "intended to intimidate" are not mutually exclusive.

How can you in one sentence agree that of course it's terrorism, and in the next claim it doesn't meet the definition of terrorism?
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Mutex » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:52 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:How can you in one sentence agree that of course it's terrorism


Your statement was: "If blowing up a bomb on a bus full of the sort of people you hate is terrorism, then so is opening fire in a nightclub full of the sort of people you hate."

Note the "if". I'm not agreeing they're both terrorism, I'm agreeing they're the same thing.

Wanting to kill people because you hate them isn't mutually exclusive with intending to intimidate. That doesn't make it the same thing. A hate crime isn't by itself terrorism. Lots of actions by groups like ISIS of course are hate crimes though.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby aoeu » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:53 pm UTC

I doubt the gay club had personally slighted him in any way, so clearly there was a political motive and this can be called terrorism. However it wasn't an attack against the US or its government. If he were alive he would probably say he was doing the country a favor.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Mutex » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:55 pm UTC

If there really was a political motive then yeah, it would be terrorism.

Arguing about semantics is kinda tedious though, so I'm done here. :)

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:05 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:If there really was a political motive then yeah, it would be terrorism.
Political motive isn't necessary, according to the actual definition used by the actual people whose job it is to analyze and prevent terrorism.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Mutex » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:12 pm UTC

Ok, one last one.

"(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion;"

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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Soupspoon » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:16 pm UTC

When I first read of this (the initial BBC website article was 10 minutes old, with the attacker`s identity as yet unreleased) I assumed it was a white right-wing guy, to be honest. 'Murika, an' all, y'all...

It probably helps Trump's cause, especially amongst those that can't tell differing islamic actual-states and proclaimed-states apart and will shout about nuclear deals all the more. Makes me almost wonder if there's false-flagging in there, somewhere, but that way madness lies. And black helicopters.

Anyway, I foresee enough counter-incriminations and stereotypings. I don't think it'll do anything but create some strange bedfellows amongst different kinds of extremist. (Particularly ironic if homophobic uber-Patriots find empathy with homophobic ultra-Islamists... But doesn't deserve a smiley.)

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:29 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:Ok, one last one.

"(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion;"

You really don't understand what "or" means, do you?
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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Woofsie » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:42 pm UTC

This was an Islamist attack, motivated by Islamic ideology and that religion's deep hatred of homosexuality.

I do not appreciate some mod changing the title of my post because of some misguided idea of Basic Human Decency.

Edit: The word replacements are fucking bizarre on this forum.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:47 pm UTC

We don't say "Christian terrorist" in front of every thread about shootings done by Christians, so I don't see any reason to pander to your baseless belief that this was motivated more by the shooter's religion than by his homophobia.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Woofsie » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:51 pm UTC

Now I remember why I left this shithole for reddit.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Lazar » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:01 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:We don't say "Christian terrorist" in front of every thread about shootings done by Christians, so I don't see any reason to pander to your baseless belief that this was motivated more by the shooter's religion than by his homophobia.

Other than the fact that the shooter pledged his allegiance to ISIS (while making reference to another Islamist attack that was not directed against gays), had been monitored by the FBI for ISIS sympathies, and has been claimed by ISIS. I think his religion is relevant, just as it would be if he were a Christian affiliated to some comparable Christian extremist group.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Lucrece » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:06 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:We don't say "Christian terrorist" in front of every thread about shootings done by Christians, so I don't see any reason to pander to your baseless belief that this was motivated more by the shooter's religion than by his homophobia.


We should, just like the Christian terrorist in the Norway massacre should have been branded a Christian terrorist, because his act of terror was driven by religious motive.

I don't get why some progressives are so attached to protecting the image of religion, especially when they perceive a particular religion to be populated by racial minorities.

By this point I don't give a shit what someone's feelings are about seeing their religion painted in a bad light. Boo fucking hoo. Religion has been a scourge to gay people and women for millennia, and we frankly we don't need all this apologia just because some political factions want somebody's vote.

Stop trying to feed people this bullshit about religions of peace. Religions are neither peaceful or benevolent in most of the world to several minorities, especially gay people.

There's not a single Muslim country where homosexuality isn't subject to governmental and social persecution, most of them actually carrying the death penalty or heavy jail terms. You have a similar Christian equivalent in Africa with the exception of the country of South Africa (where it's only just rampant social persecution and routine corrective raping of lesbians), but at least that's contained to Africa, not the entirety of the Christian world who's happened to slightly if terribly slowly evolve.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:22 pm UTC

Regardless, the thread title isn't going to be changed back.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby sardia » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:41 am UTC

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ter ... s-attacks/
Interesting trends in terrorism.
More guns, less explosives. Another is that terrorists use to be more discrete and less wanted to kill. Now they want to be watched and kill.

I still find it interesting that you can't legally stop a terrorist from buying a gun.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby PAstrychef » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:44 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Regardless, the thread title isn't going to be changed back.

Ok, you are an extremist organization trying yo Erin hearts and minds around the world. Some whack job does something you might agree with, but couldn't be bothered to do yourself. The whack job pledges his loyalty to your organization. Why not claim him as one of your own? It's great publicity for your group, and looks like you have reached into the very center of your Great Enemy to win over a true believer.
The whack job wants to feel like his individual act has greater meaning in the world, so he uses the biggest, scariest name he can think of. There are plenty of christian groups that would claim a shooter doing this in the name of Christ.
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Re: Islamist attack on Orlando gay club

Postby heuristically_alone » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:58 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Of course they're openly calling it terrorism when the shooter is Muslim...


He had been investigated before for connections with ISIS
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:48 am UTC

He isn't a terrorist until he creates terror. He is now official. He is now also dead, so he can't buy any more guns. As to the question is he an Islamist? He'll be seen as one. And apparently he thought he was.
We don't say "Christian terrorist" in front of every thread about shootings done by Christians, so I don't see any reason to pander to your baseless belief that this was motivated more by the shooter's religion than by his homophobia.
You needn't pander to anyone's beliefs, but the two aren't mutually exclusive, and for an Islamist, homophobia is a feature, not a bug. And given that the NRA will not let any of the fallout land at their doorstep, you can believe they will be banging the terrorist drum loudly.
Woofsie wrote:This was an Islamist attack, motivated by Islamic ideology and that religion's deep hatred of homosexuality.
You may well be right, but it will get blamed on the Religion in any case and all Muslims will get tainted by the smut. But for most so called normal people, hating something and being prepared to murder for it are two different things.

edited at 6:17 AM EST
Last edited by morriswalters on Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:18 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:05 am UTC

PAstrychef wrote:Ok, you are an extremist organization trying yo Erin hearts and minds around the world. Some whack job does something you might agree with, but couldn't be bothered to do yourself. The whack job pledges his loyalty to your organization. Why not claim him as one of your own? It's great publicity for your group, and looks like you have reached into the very center of your Great Enemy to win over a true believer.
The whack job wants to feel like his individual act has greater meaning in the world, so he uses the biggest, scariest name he can think of. There are plenty of christian groups that would claim a shooter doing this in the name of Christ.

Yeah, pretty much this. He pledged his "loyalty" via a 911 call as the act was being committed, and then the claim that he was one of their own wasn't even consistent with the language of other Daesh posts, according to the CNN article linked in the OP.

Both of those seem like pretty easy things to do regardless of whether this was an Islamist terror attack or just a(nother) plain home-grown homophobic one.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Zohar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:15 am UTC

Lucrece wrote:I don't get why some progressives are so attached to protecting the image of religion, especially when they perceive a particular religion to be populated by racial minorities.

Because it demonizes people who follow those religions.

By this point I don't give a shit what someone's feelings are about seeing their religion painted in a bad light. Boo fucking hoo. Religion has been a scourge to gay people and women for millennia, and we frankly we don't need all this apologia just because some political factions want somebody's vote.

1. No, religion hasn't always been a scourge to gay people (how are women not people BTW?) over millennia. Yes, of course it's happened a lot over the years, but there were also centuries-long periods when religious movements sanctioned same-sex relationships (I know this is definitely true for Judaism and Christianity).
2. As a gay atheist, I'm going to object here and say that this is incredibly disturbing to me.

Stop trying to feed people this bullshit about religions of peace. Religions are neither peaceful or benevolent in most of the world to several minorities, especially gay people.

Some people working on behalf of some religions have definitely been violent, there's no doubt about that. But I'm not sure how you can say that when most people in the world are religious, and most people in the world have also not been violent towards others.

There's not a single Muslim country where homosexuality isn't subject to governmental and social persecution, most of them actually carrying the death penalty or heavy jail terms.

The Ottoman Empire legalized homosexual relationships in 1858 (for reference, Finland only legalized in 1971, Norway in 1972, and the US in 2003). LGBT people can also seek asylum in Turkey for their sexual orientation. Also, 20 out of 57 majority-Muslim countries don't have laws prohibiting same-sex intercourse or same-sex relationships.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:32 am UTC

I suspect it was meant as (gay people) and women rather than gay (people and women).

Still historically inaccurate, though. People look at changes over the past 100 years and like to extrapolate monotinically back in time, rather than realizing how many things got worse before getting better.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:52 am UTC

Has someone started tampering with quotes?

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:08 am UTC

IMO, its not an ISIS attack unless the dude actually has connections with it.

"Inspired by ISIS" would be the most I'd give credit to ISIS, because otherwise this is just a lone wolf attack. He was an American-born citizen once again (like the Boston Marathon bombing), so any talk of closing the border just doesn't make sense in the context of this attack.

ISIS hasn't shown any capability to actually send attackers into this country, like they have with Paris or Brussels. The US cannot and will not punish "thought-crimes", so lone-wolf attacks are basically unstoppable. The FBI's net to pose as fake ISIS members and search for followers is a controversial strategy on the internet, but in the wake of these "ISIS Inspired" attacks, they remain the best policy IMO.

I dunno any policy changes that would make sense however. The gun control debate should commence once we figure out this guy's background and whether or not gun control laws would have prevented him from getting his guns. But for now, it looks like its just going to be speculation.
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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:49 am UTC

Look up Muhiddin Mire's knife attack at Leytonstone Tube Station (I'm letting you choose your own favourite news source, naturally the spin is different wherever you look), if you don't already know about it, for an arguably equivalent situation over here. (Knife, not gun; random person, not a particular group; tasered/arrested/charged/committed, not died at the scene - but looks like it could be a similar 'self-radicalisation' process.)

(Also, if we're arguing about the proper description of this incident, I'd suggest that it's more a (nuanced) Hate Crime than a Terror Attack, even. With no sign of a consistent plot behind the actions of this lone gunman, all we have is one less unstable person, and there's probably already enough of those, hiding in plain sight, that copycat-inspiration will only really change the theme of their spectacles, not significantly increase the risks of their happening. Also compare with the shooting of Christina Grimmie, motives as yet unclear.)

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Re: Terror attack on Orlando gay club

Postby Fractal_Tangent » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:23 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I dunno any policy changes that would make sense however. The gun control debate should commence once we figure out this guy's background and whether or not gun control laws would have prevented him from getting his guns. But for now, it looks like its just going to be speculation.

I was listening to the radio this morning (BBC Radio 4) with a debate from Republicans Abroad (or something similar) and someone who had been head of foreign policy in Clinton's day (or something similar, I don't quite remember the details about who specifically they were).
They said the shooter had been employed as a security guard and had permits for weapons. He went and bought his assault rifle some 10 days before the attack and a 'small mountain' of ammunition - all legally. He was entitled to buy them and his job required that he had a firearm (though probably not an assault rifle or automatic weapon of any kind).

Both sides of the debate came to the conclusion that what made this particular shooting so deadly was the expiration of the law against the sale of assault weapons and that something should have been done about that (though no wider pro- or anti- gun message was present).


This whole thing is incredibly miserable and tremendously sad.
eSOANEM wrote:
right now, that means it's Nazi punching time.


she/her/hers
=]


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