50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

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Tyndmyr
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:44 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Hard to have an honest discussion if people can't handle even looking at the facts.

Understanding the facts doesn't require you to pursue any one thing, but it does allow you to look things over more accurately. Where do you think it leads?

It should lead to better outreach for those left behind in the economy(reduces unemployed men causing trouble), more research into gun violence, more social services, and more protections for minorities. What I actually think will happen is a bunch of Muslims or gays are gonna get hurt in the name of security.
You have-not convinced me of anything yet but I wanted to know what you're hoping will happen as well.


Well, this fellow was gainfully employed, don't know that unemployment relates much to this. I'm not sure that it even does overall, for mass shootings. Mass shootings do not appear to track employment rates. Granted, we're looking at relatively small numbers of events, but unemployment seems like a fairly distinct problem here.

Why would more gays get hurt? This incident does not portray them, at large, as a security threat to others. I can't see how this would persuade more people that they are dangerous. Anyone selling that sort of line probably had a strong pre-existing motive, I think.

Muslims, well, yeah, it doesn't look great. Flip side of that is if you're looking at this in Us vs Them terms, which humans are super prone to, it at least puts gay folks in the "us" category. Including for a lot of people that might not have felt that way beforehand. Bit of a silver lining, there.

I would hope, perhaps, that people are able to do statistical analysis while also evaluating individuals as individuals, but I can't put a lot of faith there. I am more interested in other trends. Gunnie bud of mine tells me that LGBT(particularly G) folks have been signing up for concealed carry classes en masse. Not starting now, though, starting a couple of months ago. Interesting, but anecdotal. Would like to see better data on that. Potential unifying factor there, maybe?

Edit: Looks like there's some data, though it correlates more directly with the attack, which makes sense to me. Maybe there was a pre-existing trend that got accelerated, I dunno. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/16/pink-pistols-lgbt-gun-group-sees-membership-spike-/

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:58 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Belial wrote:But hey, would anyone like to compare the rate of homophobic violence in america to the rate of islam-inspired violence in america (start with an average of about 1200 anti-LGBTQ hate crimes a year and work from there)?


Sure, we can look at trends. Let's look at say, hate crimes targeting Islamic folks, if we want to examine this idea of irrationally hating Muslims. And we can compare that to say, people targeting folks based on sexual orientation. Bam, should be EASY to see who is hated more, in practice.

So, FBI data, we have, for 2014, 1,154 known offenders for a hate crime based on sexual orientation. (and of those, a whopping 10 were for being heterosexual)
For being Muslim, we have....148.

So, we can conclude that anti-homosexual violence is roughly an order of magnitude higher than anti-Muslim violence
That's sort of the opposite figure Belial was looking for, though, which was the amount of violence "inspired by Islam" (i.e. committed by Muslims because of their religion).

Also, given that there are an order of magnitude (ish) more LGBTQ Americans than Muslim Americans, I'm not sure what the difference in hate crime rates is supposed to be illustrating in your view (even setting aside its irrelevance to Belial's).
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:56 pm UTC

Comparing violence against both minority groups seemed more apples to apples than comparing violence against one minority group with violence initiated by another minority group. If you wish to see who is disliked, compare victimization.

If one wished to compare the violence by both groups on outside groups, in order to see which is more frequently violent, well...the amount of hate crimes committed by LGBT folks on hetero folks is utterly trivial. Basically a rounding error.

Several earlier sources showed Islam-perpetrated US crimes, and they are vastly outsized for their population. Different data sources from those perpetrated by LGBT, but...they're in no way even vaguely comparable.

There are interesting breakdowns within those categories. Gay folks seem to be victimized at far higher rates than lesbian, at least, per the reported numbers, anyways.

Likewise, even if you account for population differences, Jews will experience hate crimes at about twice the rate of Muslims in the US.

Overall, violence experienced by a minority group does not appear to correlate well with violence initiated by them. There's some pretty huge asymmetries here.

Another note, which isn't mass shooting or terrorism specific, but is religion related, is prison population numbers. Muslims have a ridiculously outsized representation in prison. http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-prisoners-less-likely-to-be-atheists/ As the article mentions, there are a few other compounding factors here, some of which are not well understood, so it's an imperfect proxy. Note that the article uses 2008 numbers, but more recent numbers are available from other sources, and a 2011 Statista survey of prison chaplains puts the percentage of the population claiming Islam at 9.4%. In fairness, that is likely merely the result of increased Islamic representation in the population, not a trend towards more violence. Still, the fact that they are so vastly disproportionately represented is...curious, at least.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:37 pm UTC

The FBI figures are suspected of seriously under reporting hate crimes overall, maybe by a lot. And why is he wanting to compare hate crimes against LGBTQ people and hate crimes or violence committed by Muslims. Or am I misreading that quote? Or does he want to compare hate crimes against LGBTQ people, with hate crimes committed against Muslims?
But hey, would anyone like to compare the rate of homophobic violence in america to the rate of islam-inspired violence in america (start with an average of about 1200 anti-LGBTQ hate crimes a year and work from there)?
Tyndmyr wrote:Note that the article uses 2008 numbers, but more recent numbers are available from other sources, and a 2011 Statista survey of prison chaplains puts the percentage of the population claiming Islam at 9.4%. In fairness, that is likely merely the result of increased Islamic representation in the population, not a trend towards more violence. Still, the fact that they are so vastly disproportionately represented is...curious, at least.
Not if you think about it. See the Nation of Islam, with Malcolm X being one of the converted, rather than immigrants from the Middle East. Be careful of those comparisons.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:53 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:The FBI figures are suspected of seriously under reporting hate crimes overall, maybe by a lot. And why is he wanting to compare hate crimes against LGBTQ people and hate crimes or violence committed by Muslims. Or am I misreading that quote? Or does he want to compare hate crimes against LGBTQ people, with hate crimes committed against Muslims?


Yeah, it seems an odd comparison to me too. Against and by are very different things.

So, I spliced it out a couple of ways that seemed to make more sense.

But hey, would anyone like to compare the rate of homophobic violence in america to the rate of islam-inspired violence in america (start with an average of about 1200 anti-LGBTQ hate crimes a year and work from there)?
Tyndmyr wrote:Note that the article uses 2008 numbers, but more recent numbers are available from other sources, and a 2011 Statista survey of prison chaplains puts the percentage of the population claiming Islam at 9.4%. In fairness, that is likely merely the result of increased Islamic representation in the population, not a trend towards more violence. Still, the fact that they are so vastly disproportionately represented is...curious, at least.
Not if you think about it. See the Nation of Islam, with Malcolm X being one of the converted, rather than immigrants from the Middle East. Be careful of those comparisons.


Right, Islam isn't quite the same as Immigrant. Or Arab. Overlap, but not equality. Religion ain't race, and as I said, there are a few interesting factors here.

But...about 4.4% of the US population is prisoners. If 9.4% of them are Muslim, and that's still about .9% of the population...that means that nearly half the US Muslim population is in jail right now.

That's kind of significant.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:40 pm UTC

That only seems to mean that a lot of prisoners are Black and Latino, who are the ones converting in Prison.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby jseah » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:16 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:But...about 4.4% of the US population is prisoners. If 9.4% of them are Muslim, and that's still about .9% of the population...that means that nearly half the US Muslim population is in jail right now.

That's kind of significant.

4.4 * 9.4 / 100 = 0.4136

9.4% of 4.4 is 0.41 not 0.9?
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:27 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I could add all manner of qualifiers to everything, but it wouldn't actually be more accurate.

It would. You may recall that I've expended some effort in showing why, although you've been careful to avoid engaging with the reasons I've given.

Tyndmyr wrote:Islam causes a disproportionate amount of violence is a verifiable fact.

I understand that you think this, since your main contribution to our discussion has been to repeat this claim over and over. But your view is subject to dispute, for reasons that I've already indicated.

Tyndmyr wrote:We can discuss correlation vs causation, if you wish. Perhaps you believe it is merely coincidence that the religion commonly upholds as virtuous the disproportionately common acts of violence that they commit.

I don't hold that the relationship between homophobia and Islam is one of mere coincidence, although I don't take it as a given "the religion commonly upholds as virtuous ... acts of violence" — I've already explained that I find this way of speaking confused. My actual belief on this matter can be found here and in my following post.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby kingofdreams » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:29 am UTC

i think your proportions are a little off

US is 4.4% of world population

.91 % of us population is in jail

muslims are about .8% of population but maybe 11% of jail population? alot of those as have been mentioned jailhouse conversions

source : pew report
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby sardia » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:06 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Well, this fellow was gainfully employed, don't know that unemployment relates much to this. I'm not sure that it even does overall, for mass shootings. Mass shootings do not appear to track employment rates. Granted, we're looking at relatively small numbers of events, but unemployment seems like a fairly distinct problem here.
Why would more gays get hurt? This incident does not portray them, at large, as a security threat to others. I can't see how this would persuade more people that they are dangerous. Anyone selling that sort of line probably had a strong pre-existing motive, I think.
Muslims, well, yeah, it doesn't look great. Flip side of that is if you're looking at this in Us vs Them terms, which humans are super prone to, it at least puts gay folks in the "us" category. Including for a lot of people that might not have felt that way beforehand. Bit of a silver lining, there.
I would hope, perhaps, that people are able to do statistical analysis while also evaluating individuals as individuals, but I can't put a lot of faith there. I am more interested in other trends. Gunnie bud of mine tells me that LGBT(particularly G) folks have been signing up for concealed carry classes en masse. Not starting now, though, starting a couple of months ago. Interesting, but anecdotal. Would like to see better data on that. Potential unifying factor there, maybe?
Edit: Looks like there's some data, though it correlates more directly with the attack, which makes sense to me. Maybe there was a pre-existing trend that got accelerated, I dunno. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/16/pink-pistols-lgbt-gun-group-sees-membership-spike-/

The unemployment rate for young men in general is important for reducing violence in general. It's impossible to pin down a specific case that rises out of the masses, so we can only reduce the circumstances that give rise to violence. As for why more gays will get hurt? Copy cat crimes, and the framing of the narrative. The case could easily shift from someone attacking homosexuals to a case where terrorists are attacking Americans. How this is framed will spur different actions. If all do is send more bombs into the Middle East, does that reduce the rate of hate crimes against homosexuals? Right now, it's still ok to deny gay people services and treat them differently.If the narrative ends up as an Islamic problem, this will not put gay folks into the "us" category, instead it will put Muslims into the "them" category, while the LGBT fades into the background as a worst case scenario. It may not sound fair to you, but if 50 gay people die in a club, it's ok to make the case that it's about gay folks.

It's not that people are persuaded that gay people are dangerous, it's that people aren't persuaded gay people deserve equal treatment as everyone else. You're statement assumes there could be a problem in the future, while my statement says there's a problem now and ignoring it doesn't solve the problem.

As for analysis, as a security guard, he did take the MMPI psych test, so whatever the guy's problem was, it wasn't detected during his, apparently, rigorous screenings.
http://www.npr.org/2016/06/15/482123545 ... ting-spree
But the shooter we know - we're told has taken at least two or three MMPI psych tests over the years. Now, as you know, that's a...
GREENE: And what is an MMPI psych test, just so we understand that?
VAN ZANDT: Yeah. An MMPI test is a standard psychological test. It's about 600 questions. It takes about an hour to do. And it explores all aspects of an individual's personality, as well as it has various abilities to tell you if someone is faking it, if they're trying to be too good or too bad or too smart. Those are built in. So it's a standard test. It's been around for years and years. But it's a - it's a good law enforcement test. It's a good security test. And it's kind of the first thing you'd give someone in a more sophisticated background investigation to suggest if there are aspects of that personality that ought to be explored.

Has anyone noticed his childhood background? It's full of violence and incidents. This sounds familiar, but I can't find the source that links this behavior to shooting sprees.
School records released under public records requests showed that Mr. Mateen, who was born in Queens and grew up in Florida, was frequently in trouble as a child, and struggled to keep pace academically, especially in the early grades. He was disciplined 31 times in elementary and middle school, with one report when he was in third grade including a sweeping list of concerns. He was “constantly moving, verbally abusive, rude, aggressive,” the report said, often put his hands on other students, disrupted class and engaged in “much talk about violence & sex.” In high school, he was repeatedly suspended, for a total of 48 days, in a span of less than two years, and attended three different schools.


PS Tyndmyr, you still haven't stated what you expect the next step to be, other than bad things probably happening to muslims and getting more guns. I presume you don't want the former from happening? So we should focus on protecting the muslims from reactionary attacks and crack down on hate crimes then?

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:18 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:I don't hold that the relationship between homophobia and Islam is one of mere coincidence, although I don't take it as a given "the religion commonly upholds as virtuous ... acts of violence" — I've already explained that I find this way of speaking confused. My actual belief on this matter can be found here and in my following post.


Yeah, in the posts that apparently describe your position, includes such gems as:

When asked a question you respond with:

As far as I'm aware there's only one sense in which I could mean this.


Or:

Actually, I've given an argument for my position.


If people are confused about your position, there are reasons.

But actually talking about your position:

You claim that homophobic ideas are linked to religious teachings and I am with you there. But I challenged you that the idea that some religious are much more homophobic than others, with examples to which there was no response.

Do you feel that religions are equal in the homophobic idea? Or how do you explain the vast gulf in homophobia between different religions around the world today? The direct comparison between Judaism and Islam directly contradicts the idea that religions are equal in homophobia. So what is your position? It is unclear.

Unfalsifiability:

As far as I can tell you just really really really don't like the idea that Islam causes homophobia. And will jump through hoops and do other mental gymnastics to avoid arriving at that position. So I ask you, how is your position falsifiable? What evidence could exist that would convince you that Islam causes homophobia:

How Islam causes homophobia:

They literally teach it. Its a tenant in their religious doctrine that sodomy is morally wrong and sinful. In highschool, I got taught it, from a Muslim religious leader that homosexuality is wrong.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:35 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:[…] I'm pretty sure that death or injury by gunshot is bad for one's health[.]

Shotgun bullets certainly is.


Maybe you shouldn't load a shotgun with bullets?

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:22 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:You claim that homophobic ideas are linked to religious teachings and I am with you there. But I challenged you that the idea that some religious are much more homophobic than others, with examples to which there was no response.

You'll have to link to the post you're talking about.

Do you feel that religions are equal in the homophobic idea? Or how do you explain the vast gulf in homophobia between different religions around the world today? The direct comparison between Judaism and Islam directly contradicts the idea that religions are equal in homophobia. So what is your position? It is unclear.

My position is that, because of the diversity of opinions within different religious traditions, there's no meaningful question of whether Islam or Judaism or what-have-you are "equal in homophobia." The only sensible answer you could give is "It depends on which Muslims/Jews/whomever you're talking about."

As far as I can tell you just really really really don't like the idea that Islam causes homophobia. And will jump through hoops and do other mental gymnastics to avoid arriving at that position. So I ask you, how is your position falsifiable? What evidence could exist that would convince you that Islam causes homophobia

Falsifiability is not as important as you think, but just to play along: what you would have to have is a situation where Islam is just one thing, rather than what it in fact is: a family of lots of different ideologies, with lots of different views about homosexuality. If instead of a family of ideologies, Islam were just one cohesive body of doctrine or practice, then you would at least have the foundation for a meaningful question about whether Islam causes homophobia. But given what Islam in fact is, asking whether it causes homophobia is like asking how many legs invertebrates have.

How Islam causes homophobia:

They literally teach it. Its a tenant in their religious doctrine that sodomy is morally wrong and sinful.

Who is "they"? I know lots of Muslims for whom this is not a tenet of their religion. Maybe they aren't True Muslims, though.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:47 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:My position is that, because of the diversity of opinions within different religious traditions, there's no meaningful question of whether Islam or Judaism or what-have-you are "equal in homophobia." The only sensible answer you could give is "It depends on which Muslims/Jews/whomever you're talking about."


Here is one, which religion, Judaism or Islam, is directly linked to state sanctioned violence against gay people, for being gay. It is measurable, quantifiable and comparable. You know, with one number being bigger than the other. Almost the definition of, not equal.

Falsifiability is not as important as you think,


Its a non-negotiable to me for a conversation with disagreement. There is absolutely no point talking to someone if their position cannot change.

but just to play along: what you would have to have is a situation where Islam is just one thing, rather than what it in fact is: a family of lots of different ideologies, with lots of different views about homosexuality. If instead of a family of ideologies, Islam were just one cohesive body of doctrine or practice, then you would at least have the foundation for a meaningful question about whether Islam causes homophobia. But given what Islam in fact is, asking whether it causes homophobia is like asking how many legs invertebrates have.


Give me a list of some of the major differing families of ideologies that you think exist and Ill show you homophobia. Its akin to saying, specify your invertebrates and Ill tell you how many legs they have.

Who is "they"? I know lots of Muslims for whom this is not a tenet of their religion. Maybe they aren't True Muslims, though.


You want a list? What kind of a list would be falsifiable to you?

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:21 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:My position is that, because of the diversity of opinions within different religious traditions, there's no meaningful question of whether Islam or Judaism or what-have-you are "equal in homophobia." The only sensible answer you could give is "It depends on which Muslims/Jews/whomever you're talking about."


Here is one, which religion, Judaism or Islam, is directly linked to state sanctioned violence against gay people, for being gay. It is measurable, quantifiable and comparable. You know, with one number being bigger than the other. Almost the definition of, not equal.


I'm assuming you're just ignoring Orthodox Judaism entirely here?

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:24 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:My position is that, because of the diversity of opinions within different religious traditions, there's no meaningful question of whether Islam or Judaism or what-have-you are "equal in homophobia." The only sensible answer you could give is "It depends on which Muslims/Jews/whomever you're talking about."


Here is one, which religion, Judaism or Islam, is directly linked to state sanctioned violence against gay people, for being gay. It is measurable, quantifiable and comparable. You know, with one number being bigger than the other. Almost the definition of, not equal.


I'm assuming you're just ignoring Orthodox Judaism entirely here?


Nope. Note, state sanctioned.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby elasto » Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:27 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Nope. Note, state sanctioned.

Not sure how relevant that is: There is only one Jewish state, and it happens through an accident of history not to support violence against homosexuals currently. But there are plenty of Christian and Atheist states that support violence against homosexuals. You'd have us think that we could therefore deduce from them whether or not Christianity or Atheism supports violence against homosexuals - which is obviously a non-sequitur.

The truth is, poverty, lack of education, lack of democratic accountability and so on correlate with violence much more so than which religion happens to dominate. Which is why a country like Turkey has a better record than a country like Russia, say, despite Turkey being predominantly Muslim and Russia being nominally Christian.

If Israel were a poor, badly educated, non-democratic third-world country it might very well have state sanctioned violence against homosexuals. That wouldn't tell us anything about whether Judaism was more or less homophobic than Islam though. Since, as has been stated, neither are monolithic entities.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Zohar » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:02 am UTC

Not to mention, Israel's policies actively exclude gays (and LGBTQ people in general) from having equal rights. First, there are zero laws protecting them in any way - there's no law prohibiting protection from harassment based on sexual orientation, and in fact whenever changes to existing laws come up in parliament, they get voted down, consistently. There is no legal marriage for same-sex couples. There is no protection in the law for transgender people. There is no support for same-sex couples to have children (and there's HUUUUUUGE support for mixed-sex couples, procreation is a big thing in Israel). Members of parliament, as well as the actual government, consistently voice their objections to LGBTQ movements, and pretty much the only supporting voices are either from the opposition, or when the prime minister wants to paint a pretty picture abroad (for instance, Netanyahu would never say "LGBT" or "gay and lesbian" or anything close to that in Hebrew, only in English).
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:37 am UTC

elasto wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:Nope. Note, state sanctioned.

Not sure how relevant that is: There is only one Jewish state, and it happens through an accident of history not to support violence against homosexuals currently.


Accident, would you care to elucidate?


But there are plenty of Christian and Atheist states that support violence against homosexuals.


Yeah, I am going to ask for some details on this claim. And to be clear, by states we mean governments. And its not absolute numbers I am interested in but proportion of Christain states or proportion of Atheist states, or proportion of Athesits who believe homosexuality is immoral. Like the way that 80-90% of Muslims view homosexuality as immoral.
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/w ... report.pdf

You'd have us think that we could therefore deduce from them whether or not Christianity or Atheism supports violence against homosexuals - which is obviously a non-sequitur.


If a reasonable fraction of Christian states or Atheist states sanctioned death penalty for homosexual acts, you would be on reasonable good grounds I think.

The truth is, poverty, lack of education, lack of democratic accountability and so on correlate with violence much more so than which religion happens to dominate. Which is why a country like Turkey has a better record than a country like Russia, say, despite Turkey being predominantly Muslim and Russia being nominally Christian.


I will just deal with the poverty issue. In five of the top ten wealthiest countries on the planet, by per capita, homosexuality is a criminal offence, and punishable by death in two of the 10 wealthiest countries.

If Israel were a poor, badly educated, non-democratic third-world country it might very well have state sanctioned violence against homosexuals. That wouldn't tell us anything about whether Judaism was more or less homophobic than Islam though. Since, as has been stated, neither are monolithic entities.


I judge people by what they do. They don't want to kill or imprison me there for being gay. I happen to think that tells me a very great deal about how homophobic they are. The truth is, at least a little but like I said, they don't want to kill or imprison me there.

Not to mention, Israel's policies actively exclude gays (and LGBTQ people in general) from having equal rights. First, there are zero laws protecting them in any way - there's no law prohibiting protection from harassment based on sexual orientation, and in fact whenever changes to existing laws come up in parliament, they get voted down, consistently. There is no legal marriage for same-sex couples. There is no protection in the law for transgender people. There is no support for same-sex couples to have children (and there's HUUUUUUGE support for mixed-sex couples, procreation is a big thing in Israel). Members of parliament, as well as the actual government, consistently voice their objections to LGBTQ movements, and pretty much the only supporting voices are either from the opposition, or when the prime minister wants to paint a pretty picture abroad (for instance, Netanyahu would never say "LGBT" or "gay and lesbian" or anything close to that in Hebrew, only in English).


Israel is at least a little homophobic, no doubt. But their homophobia is on a completely different scale when compared to countries who want to kill me. And its pretty damn awesome that there are political forces in Israel that support issues for LGBTQ, again, compare to other countries where its a criminal offence.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:36 am UTC

If Islam is immutably homophobic and if the premise that this is immoral or evil by our standards than we should do something about it. Then it follows that Donald Trump is right and we should ban Muslims from entering the country and if anything we should do more. Would this be your position? If not, than why?

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby elasto » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:25 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Accident, would you care to elucidate?

Sure.

There's basically no correlation historically between a state's dominant religion and how liberal it is.

During various periods of history, Christian, Atheist and Jewish countries have been horribly illiberal, and Muslim states have been enlightened. It's an accident of history that in 2016 Muslim countries happen to be illiberal as a whole. You can't infer from that that Islam is more intolerant of homosexuality than Judaism any more than you could infer the reverse during a previous period of human history.

But there are plenty of Christian and Atheist states that support violence against homosexuals.


Yeah, I am going to ask for some details on this claim. And to be clear, by states we mean governments. And its not absolute numbers I am interested in but proportion of Christain states or proportion of Atheist states, or proportion of Athesits who believe homosexuality is immoral.

Let's go much simpler than that. Let's look at the United States:

In 1779, Thomas Jefferson wrote a law in Virginia which contained a punishment of castration for men who engage in sodomy. Jefferson intended this to be a liberalization of the sodomy laws in Virginia at that time, which prescribed death as the maximum penalty for the crime of sodomy. It was rejected by the Virginia Legislature.

Prior to 1962, sodomy was a felony in every state, punished by a lengthy term of imprisonment and/or hard labor. In that year, the Model Penal Code (MPC) — developed by the American Law Institute to promote uniformity among the states as they modernized their statutes — struck a compromise that removed consensual sodomy from its criminal code while making it a crime to solicit for sodomy.

In 1962 Illinois adopted the recommendations of the Model Penal Code and thus became the first state to remove criminal penalties for consensual sodomy from its criminal code, almost a decade before any other state. Over the years, many of the states that did not repeal their sodomy laws had enacted legislation reducing the penalty.

At the time of the Lawrence decision in 2003, the penalty for violating a sodomy law varied very widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction among those states retaining their sodomy laws. The harshest penalties were in Idaho, where a person convicted of sodomy could earn a life sentence. Michigan followed, with a maximum penalty of 15 years imprisonment while repeat offenders got life.

So it was within your own lifetime that the US treated homosexuals with horrible state sanctioned penalties.

Again, can we infer from this that Christianity is homophobic? No. Factions of it certainly are, just as they are within Judaism and Islam, but we can't conclude any more than that.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Zohar » Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:28 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:
elasto wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:Nope. Note, state sanctioned.

Not sure how relevant that is: There is only one Jewish state, and it happens through an accident of history not to support violence against homosexuals currently.


Accident, would you care to elucidate?

Basically there was a law in Israel, left over from the days of the British rule in the land (before 1948). The law was hardly ever employed, usually only in cases when no other law would do (for example, a boy raped by a man - not considered rape at the time according to law, so they sued for sodomy). However, the law still wasn't appealed at any point. In 1987, one of the far-left parliament members put a revised law to a vote, but the way she put it up, she basically hid the fact that it doesn't contain the anti-homosexuality clause. By the time the conservatives got upset, it became law.

Israel is at least a little homophobic, no doubt. But their homophobia is on a completely different scale when compared to countries who want to kill me. And its pretty damn awesome that there are political forces in Israel that support issues for LGBTQ, again, compare to other countries where its a criminal offence.

Well, you know, there are still multiple murders of transgender women in Israel, and there was a murder just last year at Jerusalem pride, and every year during pride people throw stink bombs into the street and play loud animal noises as protest. Yes, it's not terrible or life threatening most of the time, but there's a long way to go, and while there was some progress during last century, in recent years it's pretty much halted completely. And as I mentioned much, much earlier in the thread - more than a third of Muslim-majority countries have legalized same-sex intercourse.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:28 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Here is one, which religion, Judaism or Islam, is directly linked to state sanctioned violence against gay people, for being gay. It is measurable, quantifiable and comparable. You know, with one number being bigger than the other. Almost the definition of, not equal.

Yes, if you replace the question "Which religion causes more homophobia?" with some other question, then you might have a sensible question. But that wouldn't make the original question sensible.

Its a non-negotiable to me for a conversation with disagreement. There is absolutely no point talking to someone if their position cannot change.

"Falsifiable" doesn't mean "subject to a possible change of opinion."

Give me a list of some of the major differing families of ideologies that you think exist and Ill show you homophobia. Its akin to saying, specify your invertebrates and Ill tell you how many legs they have.

Again, if you ask some other question than "Does Islam cause homophobia?", then that question might make sense.

Who is "they"? I know lots of Muslims for whom this is not a tenet of their religion. Maybe they aren't True Muslims, though.


You want a list? What kind of a list would be falsifiable to you?

This is beside the point. I have no doubt that some Muslims preach homophobia. But this wouldn't vindicate the general claim, when talking about Muslims, that "they" preach homophobia, that Islam causes homophobia, etc.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:32 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
BattleMoose wrote:Accident, would you care to elucidate?

Sure.


I thought that there was going to be some cool story how a translation was wrong or someone tripped and the legislature didn't get passed or something. But that's just hand waving. Legislature generally fairly accurately represents the values of the culture that do the legislating. Its no accident.


But there are plenty of Christian and Atheist states that support violence against homosexuals.


Yeah, I am going to ask for some details on this claim. And to be clear, by states we mean governments. And its not absolute numbers I am interested in but proportion of Christain states or proportion of Atheist states, or proportion of Athesits who believe homosexuality is immoral.
Let's go much simpler than that. Let's look at the United States:

So it was within your own lifetime that the US treated homosexuals with horrible state sanctioned penalties.


Yes, I am going to assume you said truthful things. Fair enough. But as has been discussed, Christianity for the most past has been dragged into an environment were need to respect LGBTQ rights in order to remain relevant. And I don't care so much about what people did do, I care about what people are doing. How the world is the way it is today. And today the USA isn't doing too awfully with regards to LGBTQ rights, its got some ways to go, that's for sure. But there isn't any state sanctioned violence, which is a very great deal better than a lot of the world.

Again, can we infer from this that Christianity is homophobic? No.


Yeah, I am going to go ahead and claim that Christianity, certainly as it is practiced in the country I live in is very homophobic. They are effectively the only voice against marriage rights. And the arguments against equal marriage rights are effectively exclusively religious based.

However, the law still wasn't appealed at any point. In 1987, one of the far-left parliament members put a revised law to a vote, but the way she put it up, she basically hid the fact that it doesn't contain the anti-homosexuality clause. By the time the conservatives got upset, it became law.


Neat. When a culture or nation's values move on, laws often aren't repealed but just fall into a space of unenforcedness. Its just part of a very common progression of a culture's values. Repealing laws takes political will and effort and often there is a cost, oftentimes its just not done. While the manner that the law got removed certainly is of "trickyness", the fact that it wasn't used demonstrates that Israel is moving towards a space that is more friendly to LGBTQ people. More friendly being a relative term.

And as I mentioned much, much earlier in the thread - more than a third of Muslim-majority countries have legalized same-sex intercourse.


I would be interested in seeing that list. Seriously. Furthermore, that leaves 2/3 of Muslim-majority countries were same sex intercourse is criminal. Do you appreciate what a huge anomaly that is?!

@TheGrammarBolshevik

I am trying to engage with you. I am trying to understand your position as best I can. Based on your last post I can only conclude that your position is not falsifiable and cannot be changed. I have asked you specifically in what way your position is falsifiable and you haven't given me something I can work with. You countered that it (Islam) consists of a family of various beliefs, fine. I asked you specifically which families and which subsets of Islam or whatever you want to work with you want to discuss, you did not answer.

I have to conclude that there is no evidence that could exist that could persuade you that Islam causes homophobia. If you don't like this, tell me what possible evidence could. But as it stands, I see no point furthering this discussion with you.

If Islam is immutably homophobic and if the premise that this is immoral or evil by our standards than we should do something about it. Then it follows that Donald Trump is right and we should ban Muslims from entering the country and if anything we should do more. Would this be your position? If not, than why?


Morris, you are doing this thing were you trying to put words in my mouth and assign beliefs to me that I do not hold. Its very not cool.

If you were to ask me what we should do about it, I would say, and think I have said, we should talk about it. We should be honest about the harm it causes. No one (or as far as I can assess) believes they are evil. And when people are forced to face the harm and hurt that their beliefs and actions can cause, then peoples beliefs can change. Some people will never change. But an environment where people are openly talking about LGBTQ people as real people that are hurt by homophobia, can and does influence younger generations and when older generations die off, then a culture moves on in its values.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:55 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:I have to conclude that there is no evidence that could exist that could persuade you that Islam causes homophobia.

Right. As I've mentioned, I don't think it's even coherent to say that Islam causes homophobia. I don't think you could produce evidence for an incoherent view, because an incoherent view hasn't even risen to the level where it says something about the evidence.

Now, you could certainly try to respond to my argument that "Islam causes homophobia" is an incoherent statement. But if you aren't willing to do that, then that's not my problem; nor is it my problem if, on account of its incoherence, there is no evidence that could count in favor of your view.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby SDK » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:03 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Furthermore, that leaves 2/3 of Muslim-majority countries were same sex intercourse is criminal. Do you appreciate what a huge anomaly that is?!

An anomaly to those in the West, perhaps.

Image
Dark blue is marriage, all the way down to dark red, death penalty. You can see the whole legend here.

Many (most?) of the shades of yellow, orange and red here are not Muslim-dominated states. Rewind this map 60 years and it would look a hell of a lot different, with same-sex sexual activity being illegal in almost all Western nations too. Being 60 years behind the times is not a huge anomaly when you consider how long ago those laws were first written.

I'm not saying persecuting LGBT folks isn't terrible, but you're acting like it's surprising, or that everyone in their right mind must know that being gay is not a choice. This is something that must be learned, and is largely a result of the culture that surrounds you. There are tons of people who still see it as an illness to be cured, including in the West, and like others in this thread have mentioned, the fact that certain sects of Islam hate gays is only news-worthy because those certain sects hold a lot of sway. Christianity or Judaism (or Hinduism or Buddhism since India and Burma still imprison homosexuals?) could be doing exactly the same thing if the dominant sects of each religion were shuffled just a bit.

Basically, if you want to say that Islam causes homophobia, the best you can do is say that certain sects of Islam promote homophobia. But then the same is true for basically every other religion.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:15 pm UTC

SDK wrote:This is something that must be learned, and is largely a result of the culture that surrounds you. There are tons of people who still see it as an illness to be cured, including in the West, and like others in this thread have mentioned,


Hence the importance to talk about it.

Basically, if you want to say that Islam causes homophobia, the best you can do is say that certain sects of Islam promote homophobia. But then the same is true for basically every other religion.


I am totally happy with splitting it up into sects. When 80%+ members of a religion view homophobia as immoral and 2/3 of countries with that as a majority religion hold same sex relations as criminal, it is quantifiably not the same as every other religion.

And I don't really care about tiny christian groups scattered through the western world advocating violence against gay people. Or other tiny ineffectual religious groups. They will die out soon enough and their hatred doesn't result in state sanctioned violence.

An anomaly to those in the West, perhaps.


A statistical anomaly. As in, 2/3 of Muslim majority countries outlaw same sex relations. It is a statistical anomaly.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:47 pm UTC

jseah wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:But...about 4.4% of the US population is prisoners. If 9.4% of them are Muslim, and that's still about .9% of the population...that means that nearly half the US Muslim population is in jail right now.

That's kind of significant.

4.4 * 9.4 / 100 = 0.4136

9.4% of 4.4 is 0.41 not 0.9?


.9% = percentage of people in the US who are Islamic, not the percentage in prison. Apologies if I was unclear there.

The 41% is the "nearly half".

kingofdreams wrote:i think your proportions are a little off

US is 4.4% of world population

.91 % of us population is in jail

muslims are about .8% of population but maybe 11% of jail population? alot of those as have been mentioned jailhouse conversions

source : pew report


Ah, accidentally got a "world population" bit in there. That's messy. That changes the percentage of total population, albeit not the percentage relative to other faiths.

The conversions is a factor, sure. It doesn't appear to be the only factor, though. I can't pin down exactly how much, because the data is limited, and appears to vary a good bit by source, which is kind of annoying. That said, we can be quite certain that a significant portion of the Islamic prison population converted since arrival. 30-50%ish, probably. Still, they are overrepresented in jail at a significantly larger rate.

Still, I think the direct rates of crimes, where available, are a lot better than the proxy of incarceration, for a number of reasons. Just got a bit off on a tangent of data found while looking at crimes, and it seemed to be a relatively unexplored one for some reason. Struck me as odd that nobody seemed interested in that, whereas we talk about disproportionate incarceration rates for other demographics all the time.

sardia wrote:The unemployment rate for young men in general is important for reducing violence in general.


Sure. But that's different from cases like these. The guy who turns to selling drugs or theft or muggings because he can't find a job isn't really the same as mass shootings. They have some fundamental differences, and mass violence in the US just doesn't track to unemployment rate. For reducing violence in general, sure, this is great, but it's not particularly relevant to *this* kind of violence.

I do agree that testing, background checks, whatever did not identify anything for this fellow. So, perhaps this calls into question the methodology of those tests, rather than the basis for testing/not. The FBI checked him out, he took tests, all well and good there, but were there signs that those things missed? This gets a little speculative, I'm afraid, but reviewing those to see if they have good predictive value seems appropriate.

Has anyone noticed his childhood background? It's full of violence and incidents. This sounds familiar, but I can't find the source that links this behavior to shooting sprees.


I can't find scientific links at the moment, but anecdotally, I remember similar reports about other mass shooters. I can't tell if this is due to a disproportionate likelihood for such events, or due to media playing up anything like that. It *seems* to make logical sense that someone with an early propensity for violence would be more likely to engage in mass violence later, but it'd be nice to have stats to back up that assumption.

PS Tyndmyr, you still haven't stated what you expect the next step to be, other than bad things probably happening to muslims and getting more guns. I presume you don't want the former from happening? So we should focus on protecting the muslims from reactionary attacks and crack down on hate crimes then?


I don't actually expect a ridiculously high rate of anti-Islamic violence. It's not currently higher than say, anti-homosexual violence, and lower than violence against other demographics, so I don't understand why this particular fear should dominate everything.

I'm more interested in teasing apart the why, and looking at broader solutions. There seems to be a preset idea(in the media, at least) that islamophobia is THE problem, and we must not examine things too closely, less the mere discussion of facts be enough to spawn mass violence. That seems odd. If you fear the facts that much, there's a problem.

CorruptUser wrote:
TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:[…] I'm pretty sure that death or injury by gunshot is bad for one's health[.]

Shotgun bullets certainly is.


Maybe you shouldn't load a shotgun with bullets?


That is odd, but so is using "is" instead of "are" in that sentence.

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:My position is that, because of the diversity of opinions within different religious traditions, there's no meaningful question of whether Islam or Judaism or what-have-you are "equal in homophobia." The only sensible answer you could give is "It depends on which Muslims/Jews/whomever you're talking about."


Uh, of COURSE you can compare them.

We compare large groups of people all the time, with statistics. If I ask "is America equal to Norway in murder", the correct answer is "no, Americans murder more".

morriswalters wrote:If Islam is immutably homophobic and if the premise that this is immoral or evil by our standards than we should do something about it. Then it follows that Donald Trump is right and we should ban Muslims from entering the country and if anything we should do more. Would this be your position? If not, than why?


Understanding the problem does not require that one accept the first solution proposed. If Islam promotes violence again homosexuality, it's entirely reasonable to have some discussion over different possible solutions. I am not convinced that Trump has the only solution here. Or best solution.

Data is only the beginning of a discussion, not the end of it.

elasto wrote:During various periods of history, Christian, Atheist and Jewish countries have been horribly illiberal, and Muslim states have been enlightened. It's an accident of history that in 2016 Muslim countries happen to be illiberal as a whole. You can't infer from that that Islam is more intolerant of homosexuality than Judaism any more than you could infer the reverse during a previous period of human history.


Historically, Christianity had many problems, yes. However, the situation *now* is the present problem. Discussing historical superiority is mostly unimportant. We can cheerfully agree that the Crusades were a bad idea, while recognizing that Christianity today doesn't pose a threat of Crusades.

Again, can we infer from this that Christianity is homophobic? No. Factions of it certainly are, just as they are within Judaism and Islam, but we can't conclude any more than that.


Even today, Christianity is at least sort of homophobic. Yes, some factions of it are decidedly more so than others, but there's a correlation overall.

It is, presently, less homophobic than Islam. However, it would be inaccurate to claim that it is not a source of homophobia.

BattleMoose wrote:And I don't really care about tiny christian groups scattered through the western world advocating violence against gay people. Or other tiny ineffectual religious groups. They will die out soon enough and their hatred doesn't result in state sanctioned violence..


I still care about them. A smaller problem is still a problem. But it's important to keep the scale of problems in mind.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby morriswalters » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:51 pm UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Morris, you are doing this thing were you trying to put words in my mouth and assign beliefs to me that I do not hold. Its very not cool.

If you were to ask me what we should do about it, I would say, and think I have said, we should talk about it. We should be honest about the harm it causes. No one (or as far as I can assess) believes they are evil. And when people are forced to face the harm and hurt that their beliefs and actions can cause, then peoples beliefs can change. Some people will never change. But an environment where people are openly talking about LGBTQ people as real people that are hurt by homophobia, can and does influence younger generations and when older generations die off, then a culture moves on in its values.
To clarify, I don't know that you hold any such views. I simply asked a question. What I am trying to point out is that today, here in the US, we are very close to holding the following as truth.
morriswalters wrote: Islam is immutably homophobic and inherently violent and if the premise that this is immoral or evil by our standards than we should do something about it. Then it follows that Donald Trump is right and we should ban Muslims from entering the country and if anything we should do more.
Your position seems to be that Islam teaches homophobia and that those teachings are an immutable part of Islam. If that position is true, than there is no discussion to be had. Because Islam is based on the writings of the Prophet, which aren't going to change. Whereas I believe that the willingness to accept that those teachings are true and moral are perpetrated by the cultures where they exist. So that I would expect American Muslims who have been integrated into our culture to be different in outlook than Muslims from, say Saudi Arabia.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:58 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Uh, of COURSE you can compare them.

We compare large groups of people all the time, with statistics. If I ask "is America equal to Norway in murder", the correct answer is "no, Americans murder more".

Islam isn't a group of people; saying "Islam causes violence" isn't the same thing as saying "Some Muslims commit acts of violence."

But given how many times I've said this, I suppose it would be naive of me to expect that this time you might actually acknowledge my argument. So, unless that changes, I don't plan to reply to you any further.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby ucim » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:10 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:That said, we can be quite certain that a significant portion of the Islamic prison population converted since arrival. 30-50%ish, probably.
Can we reasonably conclude that opression causes Islam? And then apply transitivity?

Tyndmyr wrote:We can cheerfully agree that the Crusades were a bad idea, while recognizing that Christianity today doesn't pose a threat of Crusades.
That's an odd statement, coming only a short while after the president of the most powerful country in the world, and pretty much a Christian country (despite noises to the contrary), declared that God (the Christian God) Himself spoke and commanded him to go to war against the Arabs. And he therefore did so. And these wars against the Arabs continue, and the discussions we are having here pertain to the Evils of Islam, even so far as to be casting Islam as the root cause of homophobia. (I can accept that Islam promotes homophobia, but not that it is the cause of it. Ditto Christianity.)

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:48 pm UTC

It is a cause. Not THE cause. Don't think anyone will say the homophobia *only* originates from there...that'd be a really tough case to sell.

The fact that frequently promotes it is enough to be labeled a cause, in my book.

And sure, the US president believing that god talks to him, personally, is a little concerning, fair. But I don't think we can describe our tendency to get ensnared in the middle east as quite equivalent to crusades. Religion is likely a contributing factor to attitudes towards them, sure, but if they didn't have oil, we'd care roughly as much as we do about Africa.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby EMTP » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:31 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:That the Jews cause a disproportionate amount of violence is a verifiable fact.


No, I'm afraid that's the opposite of being a "verifiable fact." It's what's called a "nonsensical claim" sometimes colloquially described as "not even wrong."

But I don't think we can describe our tendency to get ensnared in the middle east as quite equivalent to crusades. Religion is likely a contributing factor to attitudes towards them, sure, but if they didn't have oil, we'd care roughly as much as we do about Africa.


This is one of the classic rationalizations for treating "their" violence as different from "our" violence: "our" violence is described as driven by pragmatic and rational motives (such as "retaliation" for some offense) while "their" violence is characterized as an emotional or tribal response (such as "revenge") even if the violence and the dehumanization of the enemy are proceeding along similar lines.''

[Note: I have made a small textual substitution of my own, one religious minority for another, in case the bigotry being expressed here is not immediately obvious to everyone.]
Last edited by EMTP on Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:37 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:33 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:That the Jews cause a disproportionate amount of violence is a verifiable fact.


No, I'm afraid that's the opposite of being a "verifiable fact." It's what's called a "nonsensical claim" sometimes colloquially described as "not even wrong."

[Note: I have made a small textual substitution of my own, one religious minority for another, in case the bigotry being expressed here is not immediately obvious to everyone.]


It is absolutely a verifiable claim.

And, in the US at least, false.

That said, I would appreciate that quotes purporting to contain my words not contain something of your invention.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby EMTP » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:45 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
EMTP wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:That the Jews cause a disproportionate amount of violence is a verifiable fact.


No, I'm afraid that's the opposite of being a "verifiable fact." It's what's called a "nonsensical claim" sometimes colloquially described as "not even wrong."

[Note: I have made a small textual substitution of my own, one religious minority for another, in case the bigotry being expressed here is not immediately obvious to everyone.]


It is absolutely a verifiable claim.

And, in the US at least, false.

That said, I would appreciate that quotes purporting to contain my words not contain something of your invention.


No, it is not verifiable, because you have not specified how the Jews "cause" violence, or where they "cause" violence, or what kind of violence applies. The vast majority of killing by Americans is done by the armed forces, which are completely under the control of an overwhelmingly Christian government.

Word substitution is a common thing here on the board, and this is a small one of my own design, which changes nothing significant about the claim you are making, which is that a small religious minority is the cause of [complex social problem.] Your claim that the Jews "disproportionate[ly]" cause violence is bigoted, period. I would appreciate it if you would not make bigoted claims about religious minorities, and then there will be no issue.
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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:52 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:No, it is not verifiable, because you have not specified how the Jews "cause" violence, or where they "cause" violence, or what kind of violence applies. The vast majority of killing by Americans is done by the armed forces, which are completely under the control of an overwhelmingly Christian government.


Comparing the US military to acts of mass violence as we are discussing here is...dishonest. Yes, war has casualties, and if we're comparing wars between countries, fine. But that's not really the same thing as the mass shooting that happened here. All you're doing is being evasive.

Word substitution is a common thing here on the board, and this is a small one of my own design, which changes nothing significant about the claim you are making, which is that a small religious minority is the cause of [complex social problem.] Your claim that the Jews "disproportionate[ly]" cause violence is bigoted, period. I would appreciate it if you would not make bigoted claims about religious minorities, and then there will be no issue.


Words mean something. Changing it from a true statement to a false statement is significant. I have absolutely no issue looking at crime rates by demographic, but switching the demographics arbitrarily without considering the resulting factual nature is kind of ridiculous.

Do you believe that any statement saying a given demographic is causing more violence than average is inherently bigoted? Even if, yknow, it's correct?

Is it "bigoted" to observe that men are wildly disproportionately responsible for mass shootings(and indeed, violence in general)? Why or why not? It's true, isn't it?

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby EMTP » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:06 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Comparing the US military to acts of mass violence as we are discussing here is...dishonest. Yes, war has casualties, and if we're comparing wars between countries, fine. But that's not really the same thing as the mass shooting that happened here. All you're doing is being evasive.


Nonsense. What I am doing is illustrating the many unspoken assumptions and unspecified conditions in your claiming the Jews disproportionately "cause violence." I am using a clear and unambiguous definition of violence: "behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something." You are using a poorly described idea of "violence" that is already coded with the conclusion you want to reach about the violent nature of the Jews.

If you want to talk about mass shootings, then say "mass shootings" rather than "violence." But as you have often pointed out, mass shootings are a very small proportion of the killings by gun owners. Most of you who kill kill one or two people at a time. That is presumably violence as well?

Words mean something. Changing it from a true statement to a false statement is significant. I have absolutely no issue looking at crime rates by demographic, but switching the demographics arbitrarily without considering the resulting factual nature is kind of ridiculous.

Do you believe that any statement saying a given demographic is causing more violence than average is inherently bigoted? Even if, yknow, it's correct?


Words do mean something. Bigotry means something as well. Would you prefer we modify the substitution to address you concern about accuracy (even though your claim is so poorly defined to begin with it's not even wrong)? Very well:

Tyndmyr wrote:That the Negros cause a disproportionate amount of violence is a verifiable fact.


I don't think that's any better, but YMMV.
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby EdgarJPublius » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:26 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:Most of you who kill kill one or two people at a time.

???
Roosevelt wrote:
I wrote:Does Space Teddy Roosevelt wrestle Space Bears and fight the Space Spanish-American War with his band of Space-volunteers the Space Rough Riders?

Yes.

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby elasto » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:52 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Historically, Christianity had many problems, yes. However, the situation *now* is the present problem. Discussing historical superiority is mostly unimportant.

It matters because people are trying to claim Islam itself is more homophobic than, say, Judaism or Christianity - whereas it's entirely about how fundamentalist the followers happen to be - which fluctuates over time.

Words matter, because moderate Muslims don't appreciate being tarred with the same brush as Isis any more than moderate Christians appreciate being put into the same camp as the Lord's Resistance Army - who's stated goal is the formation of Bible-based state that uses the Ten Commandments as guide posts - kidnapping children for use as sex slaves and soldiers, and massacring entire villages in an effort to bring that about.

It's basically an accident of history that Isis is a bigger problem right now than, say, the LRA. It's not something intrinsic to Islam.

(And the distinction between the religion itself and its followers may seem like pedantry, but it's not. The reason it's not is that some actions we take can drive a community towards fundamentalism, and other actions can moderate it. Whereas if we just throw our hands up and say 'oh it's the religion itself that's flawed', that absolves us of any responsibility to address our own failings. It leads us to think that policies from people like Trump would make things better, when in fact they'd make them much worse. Or it leads Israel to conclude 'they'll hate us no matter what we do' so they don't care about responding to violence with disproportionate violence in return. So missing this distinction has serious real-world consequences.)

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Re: 50 Dead, 53 Injured in Orlando Gay Club Shooting

Postby Deva » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:29 am UTC

Injury update:
Source wrote:City officials and survivors of the ordeal praised the hospital’s role in saving lives and keeping the final death toll down. As of Friday, 23 patients remained in the hospital, including six in the intensive care unit. Surgeons have performed 54 operations since the shooting.

Must be exhausted.
Changes its form depending on the observer.


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