Trump presidency

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:13 am UTC

The very notion of 'White Identity' is so absurdly bizarre to me. Cultural identities are built upon shared experiences and shared culture; what unique experience do white people in America share as a group that you could construct an identity around?

...I mean, positive identities -- not stuff like the KKK.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SlyReaper » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:22 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
mcd001 wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Rosie the Riveter is considered one of the #1 Feminist posters of all time.

Rosie the Riveter is actually not a feminist poster. She dates back to WWII and was used to help promote and mobilize civilians to support the war effort (alongside all those "Buy War Bonds" and "Uncle Sam Wants You" posters).


If we want to get really technical, the poster in question is actually named "We Can Do It", and Rosie the Riveter is actually this lesser-known poster. "We Can Do It" was probably based on Naomi if we want to get really technical.

In any case, its a woman because WW2 factories were staffed by women at that time. All (well... at least huge numbers of) the men were in combat. So the poster became a feminist icon, despite its WW2 roots. Indeed, a lot of modern feminism has to do with the fact that women entered the work force en-masse during WW2 and began to demand equal rights.

I guess we can say that white supremacists are trying to turn it into a white-supremacy poster / icon. Or at least, they're trolling and trying to piss people off with the concept of it.

Is it a white supremacist message? Or is it just a (admittedly ill-advised) response to this kind of thing?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Koa » Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:29 pm UTC

Poverty. It doesn't make much sense until you live in rural or ghetto America. (Less so in ghetto cities because everyone knows something ain't quite right, rural areas are more insidious.) There's far less access to government services, police appear inept, increased isolation and decreased multiculturalism, and on and on. Urban areas have a lot of safety nets, elsewhere your only protections are your family, your small local community, and by extension your race. It's the breeding ground for white identity because other races will stick with their people and their culture in their language, and because of the increased reliance on the community, white identity is formed from the othering effect of the other races. If you don't join in you'll get swallowed by your needs alone. If you do join in and you don't succumb to the biases, you might as well be a paragon of multicultural enlightenment, especially when you mix in poor education and poor general knowledge among your peers.

A lot of things flow naturally from this like distrust of government, or the threat of whites becoming a minority (or rather less of a majority). They won't see it as racist because it's important to their general well being and their identity. The complaint of PC culture is the hyper distilled expression of their life experiences. It should probably also be noted that parents can indoctrinate their kids to believe whatever.

California is as far as you get from a swing state, but don't be fooled, there are a lot of counties where Trump decisively won. Then take a closer look at the counties themselves and you see that you don't actually have to go very far to hit Trump town, unless you're in the middle of LA/SF.

It's very easy to shine a spotlight on the most extreme sections of the divide to get one side riled up to do an act that allows the other side its turn in the ring. The fight is creating a power vacuum for white supremacists, and is distinctly benefiting hostile foreign countries. I can only see it getting worse over the next several years because it is a feedback loop with no countermeasures. It's an oil fire, all you can do as an individual is walk away from it and let it burn itself out. Meanwhile, the profit driven media is recruiting ten more to the fight, and some of them are going to believe violence is the only solution.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:37 pm UTC

Is it a white supremacist message?

The guy sells books on his website. " The color of crime" , "The passing of the great race" , "The Conquest of a Continent" , "Victory Or Violence - The Story Of The Awb Of South Africa", "The rising tide of color against white world supremacy", etc.

"The passing of the great race" is a classic of the genre. It explains how the US was once a pure-blooded country of Nordic protestants, but is under threat from the lesser races (Italians!). It was apparently one of Hitler's favourite books.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SlyReaper » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:45 pm UTC

Is... is that an ad hominem, I detect? :wink:

Actually, fair enough, I didn't know who made the image. Sounds like he's into some... unpleasant literature. Given that, it seems likely there was white supremacist intent behind the image.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Diadem » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:26 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:The very notion of 'White Identity' is so absurdly bizarre to me. Cultural identities are built upon shared experiences and shared culture; what unique experience do white people in America share as a group that you could construct an identity around?

...I mean, positive identities -- not stuff like the KKK.

Oh c'mon. You can't talk about white entitlements, and then turn around and claim white people have no shared experiences. The notion of shared experience is central to the very concept of entitlement. It makes no sense to call a group entitled if they do not experience that entitlement in some way.

But it's not just that either. There are plenty of cultural things that differ between groups. White people, compared to other ethnicities, tend to enjoy different sports, different kinds of music, even different foods. Those are not hard differences, but rather statistical ones, where the averages are different even if plenty of members of each group don't fit those averages. But that doesn't mean they as a whole don't form a common culture. Compare for example video games, which are very much a part of 'nerd culture', even though not all nerds are into games, and not all gamers are nerds.

And finally, I think that vague feeling of unease and shame you feel when your grandfather starts talking about how Apartheid really wasn't all that bad, is also a unique shared white experience.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:47 pm UTC

Whether a concept such as "white identity" exists or not is such an uninteresting question to me. If it exists, then we've discussed it and presented it all over our media to death. If it doesn't, then let's move on and talk about more interesting people.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby commodorejohn » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:13 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:let's move on and talk about more interesting people.

Gee, I wonder how this notion that white people are being discounted in the cross-cultural discussion out of hand got any traction...
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:51 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:
Zohar wrote:let's move on and talk about more interesting people.

Gee, I wonder how this notion that white people are being discounted in the cross-cultural discussion out of hand got any traction...

Because people are racist and have massive biases, that's why.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby commodorejohn » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:06 pm UTC

You don't think people just dismissing the entire idea that white people might have unique and interesting cultural experiences of their own out-of-hand might, at the very least, kinda play into and feed those biases?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:20 pm UTC

I suppose in theory that might be a thing, but it's not what I said. What I said was there's so much media portraying white protagonists (specifically straight white cisgender abled neurotypical men) that I'd like to see something else now.

My favorite non-statistic to demonstrate this is there are currently six1 Marvel movies with (straight-white-cis-abled-neurotypical-men) actors named "Chris" in a leading role and zero with a leading character that doesn't match that category (excluding ensemble movies, which also include one of those Chris's). Of the nine currently-confirmed future titles, one has a non-white character in a leading role2, two have women in a leading role3. Certainly not proof for anything systemic, and I enjoy the hell out of these movies, but trust me - it's not much different if you look at media in a more research-oriented lens.

And, of course, this is a recurring issue not just in fictional media, and there's no shortage of studies that confirm that, either.

1Thor 1, 2, Guardians of the Galaxy, Captain America 1-3
2Black Panther
3"Captain Marvel" and "Ant-Man and the Wasp", though the actress will also star next to a straight-white-cis-abled-neurotypical-man.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby commodorejohn » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:29 pm UTC

And I get where you're coming from on that side of things. But the way you expressed it up there is pretty much a case-in-point for where this kind of thinking comes from. While the actual balance of representation in media is wayyy tilted in favor of white people, the attitudes expressed by a lot of critical voices out there frequently make it sound like diversity and multiculturalism encompass everybody in the world except white people - and while you're probably right that movements like this, at their core, start with racists and bigots, those attitudes probably don't hurt when it comes to them picking up converts from outside the fringe.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby mcd001 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:30 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:What I said was there's so much media portraying white protagonists (specifically straight white cisgender abled neurotypical men) that I'd like to see something else now.

On the other hand, what if what you'd like to see represents a tiny niche market?
http://thefederalist.com/2017/04/12/forcing-political-correctness-employees-characters-killing-marvel-comics/

If I ran a studio, I'd try to make as big a return on my investment as I could, even if it deprived you of the opportunity to see Captain Diversity take on the bad guys.

Zohar wrote:Whether a concept such as "white identity" exists or not is such an uninteresting question to me. If it exists, then we've discussed it and presented it all over our media to death. If it doesn't, then let's move on and talk about more interesting people.

This isn't about whether you find straight white cisgender (whatever that is) abled neurotypical (whatever that is) men interesting. The issue is whether it's reasonable for white people to engage in identity politics in the same way other ethnic and minority groups do. The argument that white Americans are the ONLY cultural identity that cannot take concrete steps to advance their interests, protect their values, and preserve their culture is finally being rejected. After decades of being dismissed as privileged racists, after decades of hearing every conceivable fringe group proclaim to be downtrodden victims at the hands of--guess who--the white patriarchy, after decades of condescending ridicule of their culture (Hey Hey Ho Ho, Western Civ Has Got To Go) it's dawning on growing numbers of them that they need to jump on the identity politics band wagon before western civ really DOES go.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:38 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:But the way you expressed it up there is pretty much a case-in-point for where this kind of thinking comes from.

No, it's not where this thinking comes from. It comes from being a racist and a bigot. Like, I understand what you're trying to say, but it's not my job to phrase the best most eloquent argument to convince a racist shithead to not be racist anymore.

mcd001 wrote:On the other hand, what if what you'd like to see represents a tiny niche market?
http://thefederalist.com/2017/04/12/forcing-political-correctness-employees-characters-killing-marvel-comics/

Then I would say you're ignoring the facts, and you haven't heard of Kamala Khan or Miles Morales, the biggest new characters to come on the comic-book scene in the past decade.

As for the other stuff you wrote, I'm not sure what your point was. White people are fragile special snowflakes who need to be talked about all the time? Was that it?

Also, mods, maybe we can split this to a different thread? Possibly not in N&A I guess but we're veering off-topic here.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:47 pm UTC

I can't be bothered to read through this thread and figure out exactly what the current tangent is about, but this thread was split off from the old Elections thread when people there got sidetracked into discussing how racist Trump and his supporters are.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:03 pm UTC

Hahah yeah it's definitely the diversity that's killing marvel comics and not their recent love affair with Nazi propaganda.

Marvel Comics: actually in our universe the nazis won world war II and the universe where they didn't is just an implausible fantasy willed into being by cowardly losers who couldn't win the normal way.

Marvel Comics: wait where are you going? It's because we had a Muslim girl isn't it?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby mcd001 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:32 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Then I would say you're ignoring the facts, and you haven't heard of Kamala Khan or Miles Morales, the biggest new characters to come on the comic-book scene in the past decade.

Miles Morales was mentioned in the article I linked, although I had not previously heard of him. Not a smashing success, from what I read:
Brian Michael Bendis, Portland resident and rabid left-wing writer, announced that he would be writing a “half-black, half-Hispanic Spider-Man” in a relaunch of the reboot version of Marvel they call the Ultimate Universe. The comic received an exorbitant amount of free media from the Huffington Post to USA Today, bringing Marvel Comics to the mass media’s attention for one of only a handful of times outside of major movie events.

The gimmick worked, bringing a comic that was lagging with sales of approximately 33,000 unit to more than 89,000 units—a bestseller by comic book standards. Those sales did not last, as their drive-by and rubbernecking readers proved to be fleeting. Today, the Miles Morales Spider-Man book has settled back in the 31,000 unit range, a nearly 10 percent drop from when the book last featured its traditional lead, Peter Parker.

So what facts am I ignoring?

Zohar wrote:As for the other stuff you wrote, I'm not sure what your point was. White people are fragile special snowflakes who need to be talked about all the time? Was that it?

I've gone back and re-read my post, and I have no idea how you arrived at that. Here is my point, restated (I hope) more succinctly: White Americans have seen the benefits that identity politics bring to other racial and ethnic groups, and many have decided that it makes sense for White Americans to do the same (perhaps concluding that no other group can or will act on their interests or behalf). The only thing that prevented this from happening sooner was the fear of being labeled racist. That fear no longer exists, because the charge of racism has been overused to the point that it's now meaningless. This has everything to do with protecting values and preserving culture, and nothing to do with "needing to be talked about all the time."

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:02 pm UTC

mcd001 wrote:So what facts am I ignoring?
Kamala Khan for one thing. Also even though you (and the shitty source you link to) consider Miles Morales to be a failure, apparently he's one of the few characters Marvel decided to keep from the Ultimate universe. Also, the last time Peter Parker was on Ultimate Spider-man was "Death of Spider-man" so yeah, I'm not surprised that book sold more? I'd like a citation for their calculations, ideally one that takes into account 6 movies starring a character named "Spider-man" being released.

This has everything to do with protecting values and preserving culture, and nothing to do with "needing to be talked about all the time."

Right yeah I'm still not clear who's not looking out for white people and what elements of "white culture" is being demolished and abolished or not being paid attention to. As I mentioned above, there's no lack of white people are still waaaaay over represented in culture.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:11 pm UTC

If fewer than 90% of characters in a movie or TV show aren't literal clones of me I start to panic.






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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:20 pm UTC

Malkovich?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:33 pm UTC

Liri wrote:If fewer than 90% of characters in a movie or TV show aren't literal clones of me I start to panic.






I paid good money for those acting lessons!

Only 90%? Fucking liberal do-gooder.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:34 pm UTC

Oh my God. Are we talking about comics now? We're talking about comics now.

HELLO! I AM AN UNREPENTANT COMIC BOOK NERD.
mcd001 wrote:On the other hand, what if what you'd like to see represents a tiny niche market?
http://thefederalist.com/2017/04/12/forcing-political-correctness-employees-characters-killing-marvel-comics/
Holy crap, that article is shit.

First off: You do know that Peter Parker's come back to life in the Ultimate universe, like... at least twice, I'm pretty sure? Also, it's the Ultimate universe. Nobody cares about the Ultimate universe. Peter Parker is still alive in universe-616, which is the primary Marvel comic series that everyone cares about (they did kill him for the excellent Superior Spider-Man storyline, although -- spoiler alert! -- he got better).

Like, the Ultimate universe has had pretty much every major character die at this point. That's kind of the direction the Ultimate universe was going in -- experiment with having a sense of permanency by actually having the cast of characters die and get replaced. And surprise! Sometimes the replacements aren't the same gender/race/ethnicity as the previous incarnation. The fact that some small group of people freak out over this is bizarre.
mcd001 wrote:This isn't about whether you find straight white cisgender (whatever that is) abled neurotypical (whatever that is) men interesting. The issue is whether it's reasonable for white people to engage in identity politics in the same way other ethnic and minority groups do. The argument that white Americans are the ONLY cultural identity that cannot take concrete steps to advance their interests, protect their values, and preserve their culture is finally being rejected. After decades of being dismissed as privileged racists, after decades of hearing every conceivable fringe group proclaim to be downtrodden victims at the hands of--guess who--the white patriarchy, after decades of condescending ridicule of their culture (Hey Hey Ho Ho, Western Civ Has Got To Go) it's dawning on growing numbers of them that they need to jump on the identity politics band wagon before western civ really DOES go.
Irish-Americans -- Polish-Americans -- German-Americans -- Austrian-Americans -- these groups might not be 100% white, but they're pretty close to it, and hardly anyone takes issue with them forming strong identities based around their ethnicity.

The issue is when someone just wants their 'whiteness' to be their identity. What is 'whiteness'? Well, if you strip away all the actual ethnicities from it? It's just a sense of entitlement, formless outrage, and some vague, nebulous 'western civilization' bullshit. And while western civilization is a lot of things, 'wholly white' is not among them.

'White identity' is kind of a cesspool. I think I understand why people would cling to it, but I also believe we need to find better things to identify with -- something better than jealousy over other people's cultural identities and forgetting that China invented the printing press.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Whizbang » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:39 pm UTC

At the risk of being a bull in the vastly subtle and volatile ethnicity china shop, here's my input.

"White" is not an ethnicity.

There. Had to get that off my chest. I feel better.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Wlerin » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:51 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:At the risk of being a bull in the vastly subtle and volatile ethnicity china shop, here's my input.

"White" is not an ethnicity.

There. Had to get that off my chest. I feel better.

It's generally categorised as a "race", much like "Black" (also, for the record, not an ethnicity).

... of course the problem with White Identity then, is that race is not actually a thing, but if you try to point that out in any other context you'd get labelled a racist.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:57 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
mcd001 wrote:So what facts am I ignoring?
Kamala Khan for one thing. Also even though you (and the shitty source you link to) consider Miles Morales to be a failure, apparently he's one of the few characters Marvel decided to keep from the Ultimate universe. Also, the last time Peter Parker was on Ultimate Spider-man was "Death of Spider-man" so yeah, I'm not surprised that book sold more? I'd like a citation for their calculations, ideally one that takes into account 6 movies starring a character named "Spider-man" being released.

This has everything to do with protecting values and preserving culture, and nothing to do with "needing to be talked about all the time."

Right yeah I'm still not clear who's not looking out for white people and what elements of "white culture" is being demolished and abolished or not being paid attention to. As I mentioned above, there's no lack of white people are still waaaaay over represented in culture.

If by "culture", you mean film and television, then sure. But then why is that surprising? For now, whites are still the majority in North America and Europe, and studios want to appeal to the biggest audience possible. It's not like the anglosphere is alone in this. Go to South America, guess what, most of their TV protagonists are hispanic. Go to India, most of their protagonists are Indian. Go to Japan, and most of their protagonists are Japanese. And it's not like American or European film and TV are utterly bereft of minority protagonists.

If by "culture", you mean the political discourse, then I call shenanigans. Much of it is centred around how white people were oppressing minorities in the past, and that the current generation of white people (individuals who had nothing to do with that oppression) therefore owe something to those minorities. We can debate the pros and cons of things like affirmative action, but if it benefits individuals of one group at the expense of individuals from another group (especially when groups are based on immutable characteristics such as skin colour), then I find it difficult to condemn someone when they cry foul.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:05 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:For now, whites are still the majority in North America and Europe, and studios want to appeal to the biggest audience possible. [...]

Noting the near-gratuitous use of Chinese locations by western1 films, seemingly to get into that lucrative market...


Not sure what this has to do with Trump, apart from his past ramts that 'Gina is stealing all the jobs, or Transformers, or alien spaceships, or something...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:14 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:If by "culture", you mean the political discourse, then I call shenanigans. Much of it is centred around how white people were oppressing minorities in the past, and that the current generation of white people (individuals who had nothing to do with that oppression) therefore owe something to those minorities. We can debate the pros and cons of things like affirmative action, but if it benefits individuals of one group at the expense of individuals from another group (especially when groups are based on immutable characteristics such as skin colour), then I find it difficult to condemn someone when they cry foul.

Even if they are crying foul without good reason?

All the evidence says that male white people hold most of the power and most of the advantages in today's world; The aim of things like AA (not a great example but whatever) is not to 'punish today's white people for the sins of their fathers' - it is to correct sins being carried out right now. Things like innocent non-whites being far more likely to be stopped, arrested or killed by police than innocent whites.

To the extent that political discourse is 'dominated' by talk of inequality, it's because such inequality is ongoing - and some people need to stop being fragile little snowflakes over the 'threat' to their 'identity'...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SlyReaper » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:14 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:Not sure what this has to do with Trump

Good point well made. This has gone a bit off the rails.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby mcd001 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:06 pm UTC

Liri wrote:If fewer than 90% of characters in a movie or TV show aren't literal clones of me I start to panic.

You shouldn't panic; if it offends you, just don't go see it.

Zohar wrote:Right yeah I'm still not clear who's not looking out for white people

Off the top of my head? NCAA. Black Panthers. Black Lives Matter. La Raza. CAIR. ADL. Nation of Islam. PETA. Greenpeace. Occupy Wall Street. (Occupy <fill-in-the-blanks>), for that matter. I'm sure if I resorted to Google, I could come up with a much more exhaustive list.

The Great Hippo wrote:Oh my God. Are we talking about comics now? We're talking about comics now.

Well, this started as a comment about diversity in movies, and it seems like a lot of movies are about comic book characters these days, so it sort of seems relevant...

The Great Hippo wrote:You do know that Peter Parker's come back to life in the Ultimate universe, like... at least twice

Sorry, I actually don't know that. The last comic book I've read was probably circa 1968. The only reason I posted that link is I was curious whether there was a market for diversity in super heroes, and that was the first result I found with a point supported by facts and figures (actual sales numbers). You say the article is shit. Perhaps so. but are the facts wrong? I don't know.

The Great Hippo wrote:And surprise! Sometimes the replacements aren't the same gender/race/ethnicity as the previous incarnation. The fact that some small group of people freak out over this is bizarre.

Your definition of 'freak out' seems to be different from mine. Not buying a comic or going to a movie with a different spiderman hardly strikes me as freaking out.

The Great Hippo wrote:The issue is when someone just wants their 'whiteness' to be their identity. What is 'whiteness'? Well, if you strip away all the actual ethnicities from it? It's just a sense of entitlement, outrage, and some vague, nebulous 'western civilization' bullshit. And while western civilization is a lot of things, 'wholly white' is not among them.

Those are not positive things to base your identity on.

I agree. But then, neither is blackness or asianess or any other race-ness, yet there are advocacy and identity groups to support them that aren't routinely tagged as racist. So let's agree to throw out 'white' as a label. What is a better term for people in the not-black, not-asian, not-hispanic, not-pacific-islander, not-native-american, not-eskimo, not-* (whichever-race-I've-forgotten) community who reside within the borders of the U.S.?

Soupspoon wrote:Not sure what this has to do with Trump

In many ways, Trump owes his Presidency to this. I think that non-* people (since we've agreed 'white' is insufficiently precise) saw him as their version of identity politics and voted accordingly.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:21 pm UTC

mcd001 wrote:Sorry, I actually don't know that. The last comic book I've read was probably circa 1968. The only reason I posted that link is I was curious whether there was a market for diversity in super heroes, and that was the first result I found with a point supported by facts and figures (actual sales numbers). You say the article is shit. Perhaps so. but are the facts wrong? I don't know.
Comic sales have been on the decline for decades. The recent Marvel cinematic franchise re-invigorated their sales a little bit, but the decline is inevitable -- and re-asserting itself. The article tries to blame the recent downtick on diversity, when there's a far more credible explanation: Hardly anybody wants to read superhero comics anymore.

Trying to glean some sort of broad knowledge regarding the marketability of diversity from the chaotic spikes-and-drops in comic book sales within the past five years is like trying to diagnose a patient via a ouija board. You'll just end up with whatever answer you wanted to see.

That's what makes the article shit.
mcd001 wrote:I agree. But then, neither is blackness or asianess or any other race-ness, yet there are advocacy and identity groups to support them that aren't routinely tagged as racist.
There are groups that support Irish-Americans and Italian-Americans, too. As far as I know, they aren't tagged as racist. Do you also take issue with that?

Also, does the fact that 'white people' don't get a broad cultural identity somehow imply that nobody should?
mcd001 wrote: So let's agree to throw out 'white' as a label. What is a better term for people in the not-black, not-asian, not-hispanic, not-pacific-islander, not-native-american, not-eskimo, not-* (whichever-race-I've-forgotten) community who reside within the borders of the U.S.?
...why do you think we need to throw out 'white' as a label? I'm fine with 'white' as a label; I think just about everyone is. I'm just not fine with the idea of 'white identity politics'. It's like trying to create identity politics around the shape of your eyebrows: There isn't a shared experience exclusive to whiteness for white people to congregate around.

Not one that's going to lead to positive values, anyway.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:26 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:But then why is that surprising? For now, whites are still the majority in North America and Europe, and studios want to appeal to the biggest audience possible.

Note I wrote "over-represented", not "represented the most". If white people comprised of 60% of the population, and 60% of characters in media were white, I would not particularly object to that. The issue is when, quoting from the studies I posted, ~72% of characters are white whereas they only comprise 63% of US population (and that 72% isn't limited to just leads, it's any character who has a speaking role). The ratio of men to women in media is about 2:1, too.

mcd001 wrote:
Zohar wrote:Right yeah I'm still not clear who's not looking out for white people

Off the top of my head? NCAA. Black Panthers. Black Lives Matter. La Raza. CAIR. ADL. Nation of Islam. PETA. Greenpeace. Occupy Wall Street. (Occupy <fill-in-the-blanks>), for that matter. I'm sure if I resorted to Google, I could come up with a much more exhaustive list.

So you're saying "If I dedicate my organization to cause X, then I am definitely not looking out for cause Y". I suppose that's fair, though extremely pedantic. You still didn't explain what needs looking out for.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:41 pm UTC

Like, mcd001, I presume you understand that there's certain experiences that the vast majority of black people in America can have that white people won't; an example might be black people's relationship to the police. This might be something that black people would therefore create a community around for the purpose of their own survival. These communities might work to protect black people from police brutality, or work to support black victims of police brutality -- they might organize into voting blocs to try and elect representatives that will oppose police brutality, and work diligently to inform members of their community how best to survive encounters with the police. You can see (I hope) how this community emerges in response to a unique threat (police brutality toward black people) and aims to respond to it in a positive, constructive way.

What would the equivalent be among white people? What unique threat do white people face in America that no one else faces? What special experience do white people have that's unique to their whiteness? What special (constructive) service would white communities provide?

EDIT: I mean, you could argue that white people encounter police brutality, too -- and you'd be right! They most certainly do. But it typically isn't because they're white. It's not unique to their whiteness in the same way police brutality toward black people can be unique to their blackness.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby iamspen » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:52 pm UTC

Zohar wrote: So you're saying "If I dedicate my organization to cause X, then I am definitely not looking out for cause Y". I suppose that's fair, though extremely pedantic. You still didn't explain what needs looking out for.


That's because people who believe in and support the kind of systemic racism he's defending (perhaps, I admit, without realizing that's what they're doing) tend to believe every subset of society that has or needs advocacy groups starts out on the same footing, and refuse tutu understand that white people already have almost every ounce of real political, economic, and social power in modern society. They believe that because black people have Black Lives Matter, et al, whites therefore have a reason and a right to have their own counterpart, without understanding that Black Lives Matter exists because black lives, in a very real sense in even our own modern and progressive society, tend to have less societal value than whites.

They think everyone starts out on a equal footing and at least have the opportunity to share similar experiences as they have, without wanting to acknowledge that their default is a step above others'.

It's a refusal to understand what "white privilege" actually *is.*

It's a refusal to understand that white people don't have the same kind of cultural identity or hegemony in the West as blacks or Asians or Hispanics or what have you because we've never had to develop that kind of broad coalition amongst ourselves simply to survive.

And it's typically willful ignorance, a refusal to look at the world in a semi-objective sense and simply acknowledge the reality around them, because to do so would pop their ideological bubble, their sense that everything in the world is just fine and nothing is *really* wrong.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:56 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:What would the equivalent be among white people? What unique threat do white people face in America that no one else faces? What special experience do white people have that's unique to their whiteness? What special (constructive) service would white communities provide?

EDIT: I mean, you could argue that white people encounter police brutality, too -- and you'd be right! They most certainly do. But it typically isn't because they're white. It's not unique to their whiteness in the same way police brutality toward black people can be unique to their blackness.


Hippo: you do realize that you're basically asking someone to deliver to you white-supremacist propaganda and then explain it to you step-by-step, right? For the most part, answering that question is what the white-supremacy movement is about.

I mean, I like pushing the envelope and arguing devils advocate a lot on this forum. But even I'm not gonna touch that one.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:59 pm UTC

iamspen wrote:That's because people who believe in and support the kind of systemic racism he's defending (perhaps, I admit, without realizing that's what they're doing) tend to believe every subset of society that has or needs advocacy groups starts out on the same footing, and refuse tutu understand that white people already have almost every ounce of real political, economic, and social power in modern society. They believe that because black people have Black Lives Matter, et al, whites therefore have a reason and a right to have their own counterpart, without understanding that Black Lives Matter exists because black lives, in a very real sense in even our own modern and progressive society, tend to have less societal value than whites.
I agree -- but I also wanted to add that I think part of the problem with the dialogue is that we sometimes give the impression that every white person has overwhelming social value. I can see how sometimes people get this idea in their head that when we say 'white people have more social power than black people', they think we're saying that there's no such thing as white people who have it awful, or that a white person can't possibly ever have it worse than a black person.

Power structures are hard, and are aligned on a very complex axis.
KnightExemplar wrote:Hippo: you do realize that you're basically asking someone to deliver to you white-supremacist propaganda and then explain it to you step-by-step, right? For the most part, answering that question is what the white-supremacy movement is about.
If someone can explain to me how white identity politics are different than white supremacy politics, I'm willing to listen. I've yet to hear a credible explanation.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:06 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Hippo: you do realize that you're basically asking someone to deliver to you white-supremacist propaganda and then explain it to you step-by-step, right? For the most part, answering that question is what the white-supremacy movement is about.
If someone can explain to me how white identity politics are different than white supremacy politics, I'm willing to listen. I've yet to hear a credible explanation.


I have a feeling that as soon as I utter a word about the difference between "Racists" and "Racialists", the forum would instantly erupt in anger. But that's the path that someone would go down if they went there... you know that, right?

With that said, I'll just say that the term that I've heard thrown around with regards to "white culture" is WASP. White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. However, I'm not sure if white-supremacists actually associate themselves with WASPs. I too am curious but that's a dangerous path of discussion to go down.

In the non-white supremisist corner... I know that two concerns of "white America" are the record number of Middle-aged White Women suicides in recent years, which may be connected to the Heroin epidemic (which has also hit White-America harder than other subgroups).
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:14 pm UTC

Right yeah I'm still not clear who's not looking out for white people

Off the top of my head? NCAA. Black Panthers. Black Lives Matter. La Raza. CAIR. ADL. Nation of Islam. PETA. Greenpeace. Occupy Wall Street. (Occupy <fill-in-the-blanks>), for that matter. I'm sure if I resorted to Google, I could come up with a much more exhaustive list.


In a perfect world, everyone would be treated the same no matter what their race, gender, sexual preference, and so forth.

However, in the world we actually live in, people are not always treated the same. People are often mistreated simply because of their race, or gender, or sexuality. So we have groups that are dedicated to protecting these people; or to offering them some assistance, in order to give them a more equal footing.

Since it's exceedingly rare for someone to be mistreated on the basis of their being white, there isn't a whole lot of need for groups to protect them against it.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:27 pm UTC

cphite wrote:In a perfect world, everyone would be treated the same no matter what their race, gender, sexual preference, and so forth.

However, in the world we actually live in, people are not always treated the same. People are often mistreated simply because of their race, or gender, or sexuality. So we have groups that are dedicated to protecting these people; or to offering them some assistance, in order to give them a more equal footing.

Since it's exceedingly rare for someone to be mistreated on the basis of their being white, there isn't a whole lot of need for groups to protect them against it.
Yeah; this is probably a much simpler, better way of saying what I'm trying to say.

The reason white identity politics is so weird is because identity politics are a response to threats toward groups belonging to a certain identity... And there really aren't a lot of threats that target you merely because you're white.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:31 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:In the non-white supremisist corner... I know that two concerns of "white America" are the record number of Middle-aged White Women suicides in recent years, which may be connected to the Heroin epidemic (which has also hit White-America harder than other subgroups).


Looks like most of the jump is from men, not women. Also increased more in Native Americans and Hispanics. This is most likely more of a general economic issue rather than a white issue, and that's what OWS was all about.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:37 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:In the non-white supremisist corner... I know that two concerns of "white America" are the record number of Middle-aged White Women suicides in recent years, which may be connected to the Heroin epidemic (which has also hit White-America harder than other subgroups).


Looks like most of the jump is from men, not women. Also increased more in Native Americans and Hispanics. This is most likely more of a general economic issue rather than a white issue, and that's what OWS was all about.


Hmm... strange. I recall a Washington Post story about white-women suicide rates. I must have picked up the wrong one. I think this was the WashPo article I was thinking about earlier.

I agree that there's some issue going on here beyond race... but I don't think its economic as much as it is regional. With the Native American statistic, that only solidifies my viewpoint that its probably a rural phenomenon (since a lot of minorities stick to the coastal cities... but Native Americans live close to historic reservations in primarily "rural America").

I guess there's a connection between economic status and "rural". But I think that its primarily that "rural" statistic that's causing this.
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