Trump presidency

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Dark567
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dark567 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:43 pm UTC

Yeah, I don't disagree with anything you said(nor would I think Alexander, who himself hates Trump pretty deeply). But I do think the article at least explains what these people are feeling even if they are reacting in extremely the wrong way to to those feelings.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:53 pm UTC

Fair enough, and maybe another takeaway from all of this is the importance of considering the emotional state of people you're addressing, even when they're white conservatives.

On one hand, I'm not going to tell anyone they're required to "play nice" with somebody like Rush Limbaugh. On the other hand, when life sucks, and somebody is telling you that you need to feel *extra-bad* because you're white, I can understand the instinct to lash out defensively. I don't think it's right, but I think I can at least understand the particular blend of ignorance and pain that might drive someone to embrace white identity politics -- and through them, Trump.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:01 pm UTC

WibblyWobbly wrote:Lots of people grow up to be thoughtful, caring people in spite of their parents, not because of them. I can't say that of ObsessoMom or the father, but I personally know of a number of people who fit that bill (people who became well-adjusted adults in spite of their parents' virulent racism/sexism/homophobia, etc.). And since your burden of proof seems to be anecdotes, I take it you agree that I'm right.
Take it any way you like. The only reason I gave that much of a explanation was because a mod asked. And it isn't an argument. In as much as it meant very much at all, you could think of it as a question to cause and effect.

In terms of the discussion that it came out of, what few things that I have been exposed to on the subject suggest an economic link. There are reasons that whites might feel they are under pressure. Slowly but surely demographics are weakening that dominant position they have enjoyed. And more and more people of all races are feeling squeezed as the one percent become wealthier and everyone else becomes poorer. Otherwise there are opinions.

I've more or less tuned out the news. But the swing to nationalism, and all that goes along with it, isn't a purely US problem. You have Brexit and Le Pen in France. And possibly others.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:32 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:On one hand, I'm not going to tell anyone they're required to "play nice" with somebody like Rush Limbaugh. On the other hand, when life sucks, and somebody is telling you that you need to feel *extra-bad* because you're white, I can understand the instinct to lash out defensively. I don't think it's right, but I think I can at least understand the particular blend of ignorance and pain that might drive someone to embrace white identity politics -- and through them, Trump.
Part of my other concern, though -- and I'm pretty sure I've brought this up before? -- it's really hard to simultaneously treat this particular breed of Trump supporter in a way that's both sympathetic and yet not paternalistic.

I'm basically saying that pro-Trump, pro-white conservatives are in a lot of pain, but they're too ignorant to recognize what that pain actually is -- and mistakenly presume that it has something to do with liberals insisting on things like "white guilt". That's a pretty condescending perspective on my part, and -- as someone who's very interested in not "talking down" to people -- I'm not sure how to reconcile that.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby MartianInvader » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:46 pm UTC

I think you don't necessarily need to be patronizing, but maybe it's important for liberals to understand the emotional aspect here: when life is getting worse, having someone say "well it used to be even worse for minorities and it's getting better for them" doesn't help you feel better, even if it's true.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:39 pm UTC

Facebook has publicly acknowledged that its platform has been exploited by governments seeking to manipulate public opinion in other countries – including during the presidential elections in the US and France – and pledged to clamp down on such “information operations”.

In a white paper authored by the company’s security team and published on Thursday, the company detailed well-funded and subtle techniques used by nations and other organizations to spread misleading information and falsehoods for geopolitical goals. These efforts go well beyond “fake news”, the company said, and include content seeding, targeted data collection and fake accounts that are used to amplify one particular view, sow distrust in political institutions and spread confusion.

“We have had to expand our security focus from traditional abusive behavior, such as account hacking, malware, spam and financial scams, to include more subtle and insidious forms of misuse, including attempts to manipulate civic discourse and deceive people,” said the company.

In its effort to clamp down on information operations, Facebook suspended 30,000 accounts in France before the presidential election. The company said it was a priority to remove suspect accounts with high volumes of posting activity and the biggest audiences.

The company also explained how it monitored “several situations” that fit the pattern of information operations during the US presidential election. The company detected “malicious actors” using social media to share information stolen from other sources such as email accounts “with the intent of harming the reputation of specific political targets”. This technique involved creating dedicated websites to host the stolen data and then creating social media accounts and pages to direct people to it.

At the same time, a separate set of malicious actors created fake Facebook accounts to falsely amplify narratives and themes related to topics exposed in the stolen data.

Facebook did not specify which stolen data it was referring to, but we know that tens of thousands of emails were hacked from Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta’s Gmail account and released by Wikileaks.

Nor did Facebook attribute the manipulation to any nation state, although it said that the company’s investigation “does not contradict” the findings of a January report by the US Director of National Intelligence that outlined Russian involvement in the election.

Russia has also been implicated in the hacking of French presidential frontrunner, Emmanuel Macron, according to a report by researchers with Japanese anti-virus firm Trend Micro, published this week.


It represents an existential threat to democracy itself really, and I hope Facebook's efforts along with Jimmy Wales' Wikitribune can turn back the tide...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:37 pm UTC

Soooo... I'm actually on board with Trump cutting out most deducations (the only two that seem "off the table" are Mortgage Interest and Charitable Givings). But if he doubles the standard deduction, I know that my personal finances mean that I basically get nothing from my house alone. A lot of people are interpreting the signal in various ways: does Trump really mean that Traditional IRAs won't be deductible?

Ehhh... probably not. The details are vague and have been left out. (Sean Spicer clarified recently that 401k will remain non-income, so I'd expect traditional IRAs to remain deductible) But what I can say for sure, is that Trump is targeting the State and Local taxes deduction.

I paid like... $4k or so on State and Local taxes, which means I'm getting ~$1k or so back from this deduction. (Very rough numbers here from memory). Removal of that deduction effectively means I pay $1k higher, which is fine IMO.

------

So it would be a great equalizer. Its pro-Trump, since low-tax Republican states are his base. Its anti-Democrat, since most of the Democrat states have high State and local taxes. But, its also anti-rich people, since those high-tax states (New York, California, etc. etc.) typically have a higher cost of living. The politics of it all make it more than possible to get done.

There's a lot of other crap being discussed, but I think getting rid of the State and Local tax deduction is an overall good idea, and overall good for this country. Lets just hope that the overall tax-bill doesn't bankrupt the nation. The removal of the AMT seems like a completely boneheaded dumbass idea.

But I'm wondering if the AMT removal is the "Battlechess Duck" on Trump's plan. That is, Trump fully expects Democrats to negotiate it away. Removing the AMT is all sorts of bad for Trump's base, so I can't imagine it actually getting to the final bill.

In any case, Trump is probably about to get another beatdown like the Health Care reform stuff. If he couldn't "Repeal and Replace The Affordable Care Act", how can he expect Congress to follow him on Tax Reform? (A much thornier issue)
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:17 pm UTC

Are those the really only important things in the tax cuts that you thought was important? Without major deduction reform, their impact on the country is minimal. The big takeaway here is the massive cost to the country without much gain, and the unequal distribution. It favors the rich, it's pretty much a giveaway without any reform that's worthwhile.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:24 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Are those the really only important things in the tax cuts that you thought was important?


No. But talking about everything I find important usually means I type up far more than people are willing to listen. :wink: :wink:

I'm keeping things short and sweet. (Well, trying to anyway)

It favors the rich, it's pretty much a giveaway without any reform that's worthwhile.


Trump has a lot of proposals implied in each of those lines of his vague as shit tax-plan. I would argue that ending the state-and-local tax deduction favors poorer states over the richer states. I fully agree with you that the removal of AMT is 100% a giveaway to the rich, but not everything on there is regressive.

The important thing is that each line item has its own implications for rich and poor. Frankly, if I were in charge... I'd flatten taxes a chunk to simplify things but also raise the standard deduction (to combat the regressive nature of flattening taxes). Alas, I'm not in charge.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:03 pm UTC

The number of income brackets isn't the reason the tax code is complex. It's complex because it reflects the economy that it's trying to tax. It's something politicians don't like to talk about.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:24 pm UTC

sardia wrote:The number of income brackets isn't the reason the tax code is complex. It's complex because it reflects the economy that it's trying to tax. It's something politicians don't like to talk about.


Well, yeah. I recognize that.

But discussions need to start somewhere. So lets start with State and Local tax deductions. Are you pro deductions or anti-deduction in this case? Because believe it or not, the Trump Presidency is actually bringing up the issue and beginning to talk real hard issues finally.

Trump also brings up a lot of other stuff that clearly is regressive (removal of the AMT). I think you and I will both agree that removal of AMT is a bad idea... so I'm not sure if there's much to discuss aside from "I agree with you". But we don't have to talk in the abstract anymore, real issues are now being discussed.

--------

Now I can understand if you don't want to talk policy and instead want to talk politics... because politically speaking... Trump has been unable to unify his own damn party. So its unlikely that he'll actually get anything passed. (Spending reform, Tax Reform, or Health Care reform....). I guess we should only really be talking about policy changes if there's some chance that they will actually get through.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:50 am UTC

I'm not against it in and of itself, but it's going to come with some tax increases/spending cuts on the poor and tax cuts/spending increases on the rich. The question is what do they do as a whole, and there is absolutely no way Trump and the Republicans pass a bill that doesn't ultimately help the rich at the expense of the poor and middle class.

EDIT: Also, can we please not take this seriously? This is just what his office scrambled to come up with after he tweeted they were working on it. They didn't crunch numbers or put any thought whatsoever into what these things would actually do to revenue.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:59 am UTC

Thesh wrote:EDIT: Also, can we please not take this seriously? This is just what his office scrambled to come up with after he tweeted they were working on it. They didn't crunch numbers or put any thought whatsoever into what these things would actually do to revenue.


Fair enough. It looks like a starting point of a negotiation tactic more than anything else. Kind of a bad one too... since its what? Like 1-page long tops? Arguably less than a page since its bullet-list form and kinda spaced out.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:29 am UTC

sardia wrote:The number of income brackets isn't the reason the tax code is complex. It's complex because it reflects the economy that it's trying to tax. It's something politicians don't like to talk about.


That and all the interference with the economy through the tax codes, eg, home mortgage deduction, deductions for children, electric car subsidies, etc.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Quercus » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:48 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Arguably less than a page since its bullet-list form and kinda spaced out.


TIL that the Trump Whitehouse uses the same tactics as a schoolkid caught behind with their homework.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:13 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:Arguably less than a page since its bullet-list form and kinda spaced out.


TIL that the Trump Whitehouse uses the same tactics as a schoolkid caught behind with their homework.

This isn't a Trump only thing. Lots of "outsider" politicians claim they want simple smaller taxes. Except no Republican ever offers the 0 page tax return. The IRS does the taxes for you, and then you call it a day. If there's an error, you can file your own. Bam, you just freed up 300,000 people to do more productive things with their lives besides preparing taxes.
They just call it simpler because it sounds good, and helps their goals (reduce taxes on the rich).

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:47 pm UTC

There are as many tax plans as there are people to have them. Trump's one page plan is representative of Trump. Simple minded. But every President has a tax plan. They never get passed no matter how detailed. Or did I miss something over the last 30 or so years? Generally speaking, good or bad, just what are the Republicans doing, tax policy wise? Anything meaningful? Like draft legislation?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Mon May 01, 2017 12:08 am UTC

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/30/us/p ... terte.html

When President Trump called President Rodrigo Duterte of the Philippines on Saturday, the American leader’s national security aides saw it as part of a routine diplomatic outreach to Southeast Asian leaders. Mr. Trump, characteristically, had his own ideas.

During their “very friendly conversation,” the administration said in a late-night statement, Mr. Trump invited Mr. Duterte, an authoritarian leader accused of ordering extrajudicial killings of drug suspects in the Philippines, to visit him at the White House.

Now, administration officials are bracing for an avalanche of criticism from human rights groups. Two senior officials said they expected the State Department and the National Security Council, both of which were caught off guard by the invitation, to raise objections internally. Mr. Trump’s affinity for Mr. Duterte — and other strongmen as well — is firmly established. Both presidents are populist insurgent leaders, with a penchant for making inflammatory statements. Both ran for office calling for a wholesale crackdown on Islamist militancy and the drug trade. And both display impatience with the courts.
Part of me is shocked he met with him, but then again, Trump always has a soft spot for strongmen. Putin, Erdogan, Duterte, President of China.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Mon May 01, 2017 11:40 am UTC

Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't Duterte make a whole bunch of basically "hating the USA" statements a while back?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Mon May 01, 2017 1:30 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't Duterte make a whole bunch of basically "hating the USA" statements a while back?

Yes with a but. He doesn't like being called out for his mass murdering. Duterte also doesn't like the US personally, iirc it's cuz of the imperialism the US did to Philippines. Separately, The US is perceived as weakening while China is rising. It makes sense for the Philippines to side with or at least not antagonize China. The only weird thing is duterte, like Trump, takes it easy too far. He's essentially given away all the Philippines claims to the disputed islands in exchange for some infrastructure spending. The Chinese weren't expecting this at all. Duterte gets away with this cuz he's popular and likes making brash statements like personally planting a flag to defend the disputed islands. Sound familiar? All talk, no action except on the law and order cruelty front. It be like Trump and Jeff sessions had a love child and no congressional guardians.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dark567 » Wed May 03, 2017 11:56 am UTC

sardia wrote:The number of income brackets isn't the reason the tax code is complex. It's complex because it reflects the economy that it's trying to tax. It's something politicians don't like to talk about.


Yes and no. The US tax code at least from my brief comparison to others is far and away the most complicated in the world. It's not just a result of our complex economy, but of varying interests pulling it in all sorts of ways, a legal culture of over-codification, status quo biases and also people not willing to give up things in the tax code that are viewed by economists as pretty universally bad(i.e. the mortgage interests deduction, health care deduction for employers). The tax code being simplified really does have a ton of benefits, it's just that fixing the number of income brackets... isn't close to an actual fix for all the complexities nor is it a good idea in general.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KrytenKoro » Wed May 03, 2017 9:55 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:(individuals who had nothing to do with that oppression)

Proceeds from a crime are still proceeds from a crime.

The people alive today don't have to have *committed* the crime to still be illegitimately profiting from it.


We can debate the pros and cons of things like affirmative action, but if it benefits individuals of one group at the expense of individuals from another group (especially when groups are based on immutable characteristics such as skin colour), then I find it difficult to condemn someone when they cry foul.


Picture a graph, where the x-axis is time, the y-axis is privilege toward one group on the positive side (let's say whites), and toward the other on the negative side (let's say blacks).

Yeah, ideally the plot would end up just asymptoting to 0 as it approaches infinity. But right now it's at like +1100, and every time the slope turns downward at all, creeping to +1000, +900, whatever, we have people freaking out about how terrible it would be if the plot ever dropped below 0, even the slightest bit.

We could expect some amount of healthy push-and-pull as the wave function mutes itself toward 0, and if it *does* dip below 0, it's good and healthy to have the slope push it back towards the above 0 range.

But come on, we're not under 0 yet and we're never going to be if people keep digging in their heels before we get there.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu May 04, 2017 4:05 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
sardia wrote:The number of income brackets isn't the reason the tax code is complex. It's complex because it reflects the economy that it's trying to tax. It's something politicians don't like to talk about.


Yes and no. The US tax code at least from my brief comparison to others is far and away the most complicated in the world. It's not just a result of our complex economy, but of varying interests pulling it in all sorts of ways, a legal culture of over-codification, status quo biases and also people not willing to give up things in the tax code that are viewed by economists as pretty universally bad(i.e. the mortgage interests deduction, health care deduction for employers). The tax code being simplified really does have a ton of benefits, it's just that fixing the number of income brackets... isn't close to an actual fix for all the complexities nor is it a good idea in general.

Deductions don't correlate to complexity. Deductions affect the political calculus, but it's really easy to deduct taxes from a house. The hard part is defining what a house is.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/03/us/p ... -bill.html
With $8 Billion Deal on Health Bill, House G.O.P. Leader Says ‘We Have Enough Votes’
Democrats are panicking as House Speaker Ryan surprises everyone with vote Thursday. They have the votes to get approval in the House, sparing Trump from a humiliating loss.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu May 04, 2017 7:18 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:Picture a graph, where the x-axis is time, the y-axis is privilege toward one group on the positive side (let's say whites), and toward the other on the negative side (let's say blacks).
A bit of a flawed premise because privilege isn't something you can measure and "race" is at best a rough estimate of that privilege. You'd be much better off tying this into concrete and measurable things like finances, employment or educational opportunities in which case, yes, a larger fraction of black people will come out in the "underprivileged" category than white people but plenty of white people will turn out to be underprivileged and plenty of black people will not be.

KrytenKoro wrote:We could expect some amount of healthy push-and-pull as the wave function mutes itself toward 0, and if it *does* dip below 0, it's good and healthy to have the slope push it back towards the above 0 range.

But come on, we're not under 0 yet and we're never going to be if people keep digging in their heels before we get there.
This really sounds like you think this is all a zero-sum game with opposing factions which is a terrible way to present the issue. If it truly were a zero sum game, do you really expect people to permanently lose some of what they have to strangers not because they've chosen to do so but because they are being forced to by others who aren't giving up nearly as much themselves and be happy about it. Of course, I don't think it is a zero-sum situation at all but it really sounds like that's how you've conceptualized it.

On the topic of taxes, having had to pay some in three countries, I find the US system far and away the most complicated one of the three. In fact most European countries AFAIK automatically do your taxes for you unless you are self-employed, work multiple jobs or are in some other atypical situation but even then the tax filing process is much simpler than the US.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Thu May 04, 2017 3:10 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:If it truly were a zero sum game, do you really expect people to permanently lose some of what they have to strangers not because they've chosen to do so but because they are being forced to by others who aren't giving up nearly as much themselves and be happy about it.


Yes, people vote Republican all the time.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby WibblyWobbly » Thu May 04, 2017 8:12 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
With $8 Billion Deal on Health Bill, House G.O.P. Leader Says ‘We Have Enough Votes’
Democrats are panicking as House Speaker Ryan surprises everyone with vote Thursday. They have the votes to get approval in the House, sparing Trump from a humiliating loss.

By the skin of their teeth.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Thu May 04, 2017 8:17 pm UTC

Surely they only voted for this bill because they know the Senate won't pass it, right? And then the House Reps can point at the Senate and say "we would have made healthcare amaaazing but they wouldn't let us"? They don't actually think this is a good idea?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu May 04, 2017 8:17 pm UTC

This means Trump is serious about repealing healthcare. Given how lackluster attempt last time,I didn't think he cared about the aca promise.

PS, news forum seems dead, has everyone fled to faid?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Thu May 04, 2017 8:26 pm UTC

Guess there's not been much news lately. We've only got two major elections coming up and it's been weeks since WW3 nearly started.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby WibblyWobbly » Thu May 04, 2017 8:37 pm UTC

sardia wrote:This means Trump is serious about repealing healthcare. Given how lackluster attempt last time,I didn't think he cared about the aca promise.

PS, news forum seems dead, has everyone fled to faid?

FaiD also seems quite slow. Guess we're all just in a slump.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu May 04, 2017 9:05 pm UTC

What's FaiD?

Also, the ACA repeal passed the House, now it's the Senate's turn...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Thu May 04, 2017 9:49 pm UTC

We won't hear much from the Senate anytime soon, as it will take 60 votes to pass unless they are trying to pass it under reconciliation (which requires CBO's findings, which haven't been done yet). It may not even be able to be done under reconciliation either, as anything that significantly affects the deficit or budget can't be passed under reconciliation IIRC.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu May 04, 2017 10:04 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:We won't hear much from the Senate anytime soon, as it will take 60 votes to pass unless they are trying to pass it under reconciliation (which requires CBO's findings, which haven't been done yet). It may not even be able to be done under reconciliation either, as anything that significantly affects the deficit or budget can't be passed under reconciliation IIRC.

Get with the times, your information is outdated.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Thu May 04, 2017 11:16 pm UTC

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/s ... ass-senate

There is legitimate questions if this can even qualify as it currently stands for reconciliation, and it's not like The Hill is some "damn liberal media" rag either. the CBO has to release findings before this can go up for vote anyway, and the freedom caucus has said that if the bill changes at all, they would drop support. So...I'm pretty sure this whole thing is a non-starter.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri May 05, 2017 6:32 pm UTC

maybeagnostic wrote:A bit of a flawed premise because privilege isn't something you can measure and "race" is at best a rough estimate of that privilege. You'd be much better off tying this into concrete and measurable things like finances, employment or educational opportunities in which case, yes, a larger fraction of black people will come out in the "underprivileged" category than white people but plenty of white people will turn out to be underprivileged and plenty of black people will not be.

This really sounds like you think this is all a zero-sum game with opposing factions which is a terrible way to present the issue. If it truly were a zero sum game, do you really expect people to permanently lose some of what they have to strangers not because they've chosen to do so but because they are being forced to by others who aren't giving up nearly as much themselves and be happy about it. Of course, I don't think it is a zero-sum situation at all but it really sounds like that's how you've conceptualized it.

On the topic of taxes, having had to pay some in three countries, I find the US system far and away the most complicated one of the three. In fact most European countries AFAIK automatically do your taxes for you unless you are self-employed, work multiple jobs or are in some other atypical situation but even then the tax filing process is much simpler than the US.

Yeah, if you completely discard the qualia that I chose and substitute one that is totally inappropriate for the analogy, the analogy is wrecked.

Finances, employment, educational opportunites are not a zero-sum game, and it's ridiculous to suggest they are. Which is why I didn't.

Overall unfair privilege and other assorted dysfunctions are very much zero-sum, and getting them to zero (i.e., removing all the inequalities in the system) is very much the goal.

Yes, I would expect people who are good and compassionate to realize "hey, I'm kind of giving everyone else the short end of the stick, here, and in the long run it's not good for me or them. Maybe if I take some more personal responsibility instead of accepting the unfair system things are in, we can make things better."

I would not have any sort of respect for someone who, conversely, argues "fuck you, got mine."
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby MartianInvader » Fri May 05, 2017 6:53 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:Yes, I would expect people who are good and compassionate to realize "hey, I'm kind of giving everyone else the short end of the stick, here, and in the long run it's not good for me or them. Maybe if I take some more personal responsibility instead of accepting the unfair system things are in, we can make things better.""

This runs into the same counterpoint - if you are an uneducated, unemployed, poor, rural, white person, you're more likely to see yourself as getting the short end of the stick than giving it. And when people tell you that you should take responsibility for the unfair wealth of educated, rich, city-dwelling people because they happen to share a skin color with you, well, you're not going to respond well to that. And it's not a "fuck you, I got mine", it's more like "fuck you, I don't even have mine."
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Fri May 05, 2017 6:59 pm UTC

You say that as if there aren't rich people outside of cities, or that education has much to do with it. It does not, and living in cities is incidental.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby charliepanayi » Fri May 05, 2017 8:00 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:You say that as if there aren't rich people outside of cities, or that education has much to do with it. It does not, and living in cities is incidental.


Actually, isn't not having a degree one of the best indicators that someone voted for Brexit/Trump/Le Pen.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Fri May 05, 2017 8:07 pm UTC

I'm talking about rich people. There are rich and uneducated people. The main way people become rich is by being born to other rich people.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Fri May 05, 2017 8:08 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:Overall unfair privilege and other assorted dysfunctions are very much zero-sum, and getting them to zero (i.e., removing all the inequalities in the system) is very much the goal.


In a lot of cases they aren't really zero sum. Take police brutality. Right now white people have significant privilege with regards to say getting stopped and/or killed by police. But there's no reason their situation needs to change if police stop brutalizing black people. It's not like there's some fixed level of police brutality that has to go on and thus as black people become less brutalized white people will somehow become more brutalized.


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