Trump presidency

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6563
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:32 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Of course swapping one group for another changes the reasoning.
No, it doesn't. That's my point. If you want to say "all Nazis deserve to be punched in the nose", you can't (validly) use "because they're Nazis" as your reason.

You could arguably say "...and Nazis all support genocide even if they didn't actually do it, and merely supporting genocide is enough of an evil action to merit a response, and a violence is the best way to combat their opinions and public image." And then we'd have something to discuss; to wit, whether the mere support of genocide is enough of an evil action, and whether violence is the best response. (My answers: yes, and no.)

Nazis aren't the only group where public perception is polarized - there are other groups (mentioned upthread) where a significant group of people see them as a huge threat, but where you do not see it that way. Somehow your reasoning has to exclude them by nature, not just by name, if it is to be valid. Otherwise, you are not actually doing "reasoning". You are doing "rationalizing".

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

iamspen
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 2:23 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby iamspen » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:37 am UTC

I'm not defining the Nazis for you every time I mention them, dude. You're smart enough to know why Nazis are vile, I don't feel like I have to spell it out for you.

User avatar
DaBigCheez
Posts: 834
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:03 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby DaBigCheez » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:44 am UTC

ucim wrote:Nazis aren't the only group where public perception is polarized - there are other groups (mentioned upthread) where a significant group of people see them as a huge threat, but where you do not see it that way. Somehow your reasoning has to exclude them by nature, not just by name, if it is to be valid.

So, we're just ignoring the multiple times throughout this thread, in direct response to you even, where people have pointed out that being "a Nazi" is different from being, say, "black" or "Muslim", by virtue of the fact that being a Nazi necessarily and by definition includes directly harmful behaviors, which is categorically unlike other groups where membership does not imply those things simply by virtue of what it means to be a member of that group?

Would it be wrong to criticize members of the group "baby-eaters", since they're a group just like [insert minority here], even though the sole defining characteristic of that group is "eats babies [which we can presumably agree is wrong]"?
existential_elevator wrote:It's like a jigsaw puzzle of Hitler pissing on Mother Theresa. No individual piece is offensive, but together...

If you think hot women have it easy because everyone wants to have sex at them, you're both wrong and also the reason you're wrong.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Belial » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:52 am UTC

"Some people see...." is not an argument. It's meaningless. Some people think the moon landing was faked. Some people think their bodies are infested with alien fibers. We don't waste time worrying about either because they're wrong and also ridiculous and because no one here actually holds those views.

If you want to assert something as *true*, do it or don't. Quit hiding or shut up.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Null=Empty Suit President

Postby morriswalters » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:56 am UTC

Belial wrote:Like, morriswalters, you're arguing with quite a few white or white passing people who aren't afraid of being mistaken for nazis because we don't go around acting like nazis. Do you get why your "think how scared my poor white self must be" is maybe not an argument that lands?
Yeah, I get it. I know your dismissive of the fears of white people. However fear is straight out of amygdala central, it doesn't distinguish fear by race like you do. And the things I fear are mostly white nazis anyway. Since there are so many white nazis, they all look alike. You'll be happy to know that I agree with you. I dislike white nazis so much that I didn't breed with anyone. So I created a negative space for someone to fill.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Null=Empty Suit President

Postby Belial » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:07 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Belial wrote:Like, morriswalters, you're arguing with quite a few white or white passing people who aren't afraid of being mistaken for nazis because we don't go around acting like nazis. Do you get why your "think how scared my poor white self must be" is maybe not an argument that lands?
Yeah, I get it. I know your dismissive of the fears of white people. However fear is straight out of amygdala central, it doesn't distinguish fear by race like you do. And the things I fear are mostly white nazis anyway. Since there are so many white nazis, they all look alike. You'll be happy to know that I agree with you. I dislike white nazis so much that I didn't breed with anyone. So I created a negative space for someone to fill.


I've been looking at this post for 10 minutes and I still don't understand it.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26528
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:09 am UTC

ucim wrote:You could arguably say "...and Nazis all support genocide even if they didn't actually do it, and merely supporting genocide is enough of an evil action to merit a response, and a violence is the best way to combat their opinions and public image." And then we'd have something to discuss; to wit, whether the mere support of genocide is enough of an evil action, and whether violence is the best response. (My answers: yes, and no.)
Are you fucking serious?

That is everyone else's reasoning. We apparently just made the mistake of assuming you weren't too stupid to figure out what we meant when we said "Nazi".

(Just kidding, we know you're not that stupid, you're just being a dishonest shit because it gets your devil's advocate rocks off.)
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3659
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:24 am UTC

I think this thread is suffering the same fate as equivalent threads on other forums I'm on. Too much heat, quite a lot of smoke, all from a build up of friction between people who normally would consider themselves in rough agreement. If some of those weren't Coloured Names, already, I might have considered reporting.

As it is, I have been trusting that (albeit whilst some also participating in a personal capacity) TPTB are also keeping an eye on it and happy with the profligate participation levels. Perhaps also doing some subtle snipping and non-public notifications to excise the worst excesses of unjustified hyperbole away from the eyes of the easily offended/likely to retaliate.

But I get the feeling that this internecine squabbling is playing into the hands of the real Nazis. Is it possible to lay this to rest/offload to a dedicated "Punching Nazis?" thread, and get back to dealing with the day-to-day Trumpisms (good or bad, according to the eye of the beholder) and the like?

I'm just a Johnny Not-An-Administrator, of course, so have no authority and expect no deference. Especially from those who Are-An-Administrator. So this is my one and only personal plea, that I am allowing myself. And I apologise if someone else has already said something of this sort. It got lost in the rest of the trash, obviously.


(Ok, finished. Not expecting anything to happen because of this. With luck it was going to happen anyway, but even that's out of my hands.)

User avatar
ObsessoMom
Nespresso Bomb
Posts: 749
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:28 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:42 am UTC

Dammit, Soupspoon, I was still pondering the circumstances under which it might be more moral for me to punch a strawman nun than a strawman Nazi. Now I'll have to focus on what actually happened, and why, and what I should be doing to effect positive change in the real world. Spoilsport.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Belial » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:11 am UTC

addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6563
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:48 am UTC

iamspen wrote:I'm not defining the Nazis for you every time I mention them, dude. You're smart enough to know why Nazis are vile, I don't feel like I have to spell it out for you.
My issue isn't ignorance of what Nazis are. My issue is that punching them for who they are, as opposed to punching them for what they do, is wrong. The difference is important - vital even. And taking the shortcut "Nazis are what they do" is the low road.
DaBigCheez wrote:...being a Nazi necessarily and by definition includes directly harmful behaviors...
Is that the definition that the Nazis give of themselves? Because if not, then giving that definition is merely saying "they threaten my way of life" in a different form. And that is why I make the comparisons (and contrasts) I do - I think they hold insight. If you fail to see that, you will end up fighting not because your cause is right, but simply because your way of life is threatened.

Yes, it may come to that. (In fact, I'm afraid it will come to that.) But that is reaction, not reason.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26528
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:10 am UTC

Even if you want to pretend that saying, "In my heart of hearts, I'm a Nazi," is somehow comparable to saying, "In my heart of hearts, I'm a Muslim," we're not and never have been just talking about words uttered into a vacuum. Nobody's talking about hunting down all the secret, private Nazis in their homes and punching them while they sleep, or whatever action you're envisioning that would make your point relevant.

We're talking about whether it's wrong to punch the ones who have decided to come together and form an armed mob to intimidate and terrorize and assault minority populations and anyone who stands beside them.

The correct comparison isn't to Muslims, it's to ISIS. If you would have a problem with someone being punched "just" because they openly identified as a member of ISIS, then go ahead and stand by your radical pacifism. But if you'd rather just draw false comparisons so you can combine Islamophobia with Nazi sympathies, then just fuck off.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Belial » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:15 am UTC

Would you like to genuinely propose the existence of a version of Nazi ideology that isn't eliminationist, ucim? Not a threat to way of life, but a threat to life ?

Do you genuinely believe in such and are you willing to assert it? We're all standing behind our actual beliefs here, so let's talk about yours. Are you actually asserting that we're wrong and nazism isn't an ideology that, by definition, advocates for genocide? Are you willing to stand by that as your actual opinion and not just an opinion that it is theoretically possible for some person somewhere to hold?
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6563
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:01 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:We're talking about whether it's wrong to punch the ones who have decided to come together and form an armed mob to intimidate and terrorize and assault minority populations and anyone who stands beside them.
... and part of that is why it is (or isn't) wrong to do so. "Because they are Nazis" is not sufficient; not only because it leaves the why out of the equation and thus its direct appeal to emotion short-circuits critical reasoning, but also because it creates and engenders hatred of a group, which once acquired, is difficult to defuse. Ask any oppressed group.

And also because our reasoning is played out on the public stage. We cannot do things that make the hateful things Trump falsely says about the left, true.

gmalivuk wrote:The correct comparison isn't to Muslims, it's to ISIS.
Fair enough, though I'm not actually trying to compare them (as in "they're the same, see?") (In fact, I use them because they are not the same.) I'm instead using them to show the flaws in the reasoning, in the same sense that Asimov's robot books were not about the three laws, but about how the three laws do not work.

Belial wrote:Would you like to genuinely propose the existence of a version of Nazi ideology that isn't eliminationist, ucim? Not a threat to way of life, but a threat to life ?
Ask a Nazi what their ideology is, and why they follow it. We're just on the wrong side of that.

I vehemently disagree with their ideology. But "I disagree" isn't sufficient to punch them in the nose.

I am very threatened by the rise of their ideology. But being threatened, while certainly sufficient to oppose them, isn't sufficient to choose violence as the method of choice.

When I (or my peeps) are attacked, then that is sufficient to use violence against them.

Jose
Last edited by ucim on Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:08 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

gd1
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:42 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:03 am UTC

Belial wrote:Anyway, yes, what about the alt-left


It's presently below the "x" and "z" keys on my keyboard. But my keyboard may have a different position on the matter of key location than yours. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26528
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:14 am UTC

ucim wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:We're talking about whether it's wrong to punch the ones who have decided to come together and form an armed mob to intimidate and terrorize and assault minority populations and anyone who stands beside them.
... and part of that is why it is (or isn't) wrong to do so. "Because they are Nazis" is not sufficient; not only because it leaves the why out of the equation and thus its direct appeal to emotion short-circuits critical reasoning, but also because it creates and engenders hatred of a group, which once acquired, is difficult to defuse. Ask any oppressed group.
The fact that we don't owe it to you to spell out explicitly why Nazis are shitty every time they're discussed doesn't mean our reasoning short-circuits critical thinking.

And if hatred of Nazis is difficult to defuse, so much the better. Your false equivalence to oppressed groups notwithstanding.



And also because our reasoning is played out on the public stage. We cannot do things that make the hateful things Trump falsely says about the left true.
Why? If he's going to say them (and be believed) regardless of what we actually do, what does it matter if his broken clock is occasionally correct?

gmalivuk wrote:The correct comparison isn't to Muslims, it's to ISIS.
Fair enough, though I'm not actually trying to compare them (as in "they're the same, see?") (In fact, I use them because they are not the same.) I'm instead using them to show the flaws in the reasoning, in the same sense that Asimov's robot books were not about the three laws, but about how the three laws do not work.
No, you were definitely comparing them, if only due to your ignorance of the fact that our positions on Nazis and Muslims are based on more than just where their names can fit in a sentence.

Belial wrote:Would you like to genuinely propose the existence of a version of Nazi ideology that isn't eliminationist, ucim? Not a threat to way of life, but a threat to life ?
Ask a Nazi what their ideology is, and why they follow it. We're just on the wrong side of that.

I vehemently disagree with their ideology. But "I disagree" isn't sufficient to punch them in the nose.

I am very threatened by the rise of their ideology. But being threatened, while certainly sufficient to oppose them, isn't sufficient to choose violence as the method of choice.

When I (or my peeps) are attacked, then that is sufficient to use violence against them.
So what it comes down to is that you're privileged enough to have no "peeps" who've suffered at the hands of modern Nazis, and therefore you're going to sit there on your high horse and judge those of us who haven't been so lucky or who care about other people?
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Belial » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:17 am UTC

Ask a Nazi what their ideology is, and why they follow it. We're just on the wrong side of that.


So "no" then. I've heard Nazi rhetoric, from nazis both historical and contemporary, at length. It is eliminationist, an actual genuine threat of violence. You refuse to actually disagree on this point. Why are we talking?
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
ObsessoMom
Nespresso Bomb
Posts: 749
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:28 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:50 am UTC

In other news...Bannon seems to have pulled a Scaramucci by telephoning a rant to a reporter without saying it was off the record.

I agree with the reporter that this had to have been intentional, because I can't believe that Steve Bannon is media-unsavvy enough to have done this inadvertently. The end of the article is relevant to the current discussion of the alt-right (although the initial stuff about his view of North Korea and China and economic hegemony was interesting, too). Snippet:

Robert Kuttner in the American Prospect wrote:[Bannon] dismissed the far right as irrelevant and sidestepped his own role in cultivating it: “Ethno-nationalism—it's losers. It's a fringe element. I think the media plays it up too much, and we gotta help crush it, you know, uh, help crush it more.”

“These guys are a collection of clowns,” he added.


Wait, what? Steve Bannon, previously the driver of the clown car for this collection of clowns, called a reporter to say this? I'm not surprised that he thinks that, and that he has been callously and contemptuously using the alt-right for his own political purposes--I'm just astonished that he seemingly doesn't care if the alt-right finds this out, at this particular moment. Don't expect any congratulatory tweets from David Duke.

Also:

Robert Kuttner in the American Prospect wrote:“The Democrats,” he said, “the longer they talk about identity politics, I got ’em. I want them to talk about racism every day. If the left is focused on race and identity, and we go with economic nationalism, we can crush the Democrats.”


Ooookay. Maybe keeping Democrats focused on race is why, in still other news, Attorney General Jeff Sessions picked today to do this:

Lynn Sweet in The Chicago Sun wrote:The Trump administration is escalating its attacks on Chicago’s “political leadership,” with Attorney General Jeff Sessions slamming the city’s “sanctuary” status in a Miami speech on Wednesday.

“The leaders in Chicago have made this a political issue,” Sessions said, his second punch in a week against Mayor Rahm Emanuel — though he did not use his name in his speech.

In announcing the speech, the Justice Department flagged the Chicago hit, stating in a release that Sessions will “take on Chicago political leadership in today’s sanctuary policies speech.”

This is highly unusual — making a political attack on a mayor, even if not by name — a week after the City of Chicago sued Sessions in federal court over the administration’s bid to cut crime fighting funds to local governments shielding illegal immigrants from immigration agents. The litigation is pending.

The theme of the speech, according to the Justice Department is “on the growing trend of violent crime in sanctuary cities.” However, there is no known connection between illegal immigrants in Chicago and the city’s ongoing struggle to control violent crime.

Mayor Rahm Emanuel said in a statement, “In a week in which the Trump administration is being forced to answer questions about neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the KKK, they could not have picked a worse time to resume their attack on the immigrants who see America as a beacon of hope. Chicago will continue to stand up proudly as a welcoming city, and we will not cave to the Trump administration’s pressure because they are wrong morally, wrong factually and wrong legally.”



Edited to say: I feel bad about leaving Jose alone to argue a point with which I agree, so I want to add this:

Belial wrote:Anyway, yes, what about the alt-left


Actually, Belial, what really strikes me (no pun intended) about that link is how the necessary and noble violence of some protesters in defense of themselves and others bears absolutely no resemblance to the kind of punch-a-Nazi-simply-because-Nazis-are-inherently-evil-and-deserve-to-be-punched vigilantism you seemed to be advocating earlier in the thread. And about which I share Jose's concern.

Palpatine already has the Nazis. Don't let him get you, too.

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3659
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:45 am UTC

gd1 wrote:
Belial wrote:Anyway, yes, what about the alt-left


It's presently below the "x" and "z" keys on my keyboard. But my keyboard may have a different position on the matter of key location than yours. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

And my alt-right is like this one:
Image
Gr!

See! Obvious violently inclined!! Grrr!!!


(And Trump is currently back to painting Sanctuary Cities as problematic. Smells like he's trying to help out his mlre extreme supporters. And I say that without me mentioning the (other) N-Word.)

User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 1899
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:52 am UTC

ucim wrote:"Because they are Nazis" is not sufficient; not only because it leaves the why out of the equation and thus its direct appeal to emotion short-circuits critical reasoning, but also because it creates and engenders hatred of a group, which once acquired, is difficult to defuse. Ask any oppressed group.
"I believe that astronauts should receive state pensions and state-funded healthcare for life."
"I believe that pastafarians should receive state pensions and state-funded healthcare for life."
"In view of what we've learned about the effects of space travel on human health over the last 85 years or so and everything they've done for us all, I believe that astronauts should receive state pensions and state-funded healthcare for life."
"In view of what we've learned about the effects of talking like a pirate on human health over the last 85 years or so and everything they've done for us all, I believe that pastafarians should receive state pensions and state-funded healthcare for life."
"A 230 grain bullet at 1 km/s is more dangerous than a 230 grain bullet at 250 m/s."
"An 8kg bowling ball at 1 m/s is more dangerous than a 230 grain bullet at 250 m/s."
"A 230 grain bullet at 1 km/s is more dangerous than a 230 grain bullet at 250 m/s because it has more kinetic energy."
"An 8kg bowling ball at 1 m/s is more dangerous than a 230 grain bullet at 250 m/s because it has more momentum."

Equivalent statements, in pairs, some with and some without reasoning. We could argue about them too, if you'd like. You could even bring up a fringe case of the bowling ball being more likely to knock a car off a cliff than the bullet. If you want to argue for pastafarians' vast contributions to society, go for it. PLEASE, though, please stop asking us to add "because Nazis are all about eliminating ethnic, religious and various other groups and that can't be done without violence and death and that means being a Nazi implicitly means calling for and agitating for violence and death against particular ethnic, religious and other groups" every single time we say "Nazis are bad." It's crazy enough that "Nazis are bad" is a position anyone has to explicitly take. "Hi, my name's Sarah, I'll be your waitress for tonight and I'm not, personally, in favour of murdering every homosexual, bisexual, Jew, Roma, disabled person, left-winger, pacifist and person with more than one non-white great-grandparent on the entire continent, in case you were wondering about that."

ucim wrote:I am very threatened by the rise of their ideology. But being threatened, while certainly sufficient to oppose them, isn't sufficient to choose violence as the method of choice.

When I (or my peeps) are attacked, then that is sufficient to use violence against them.

Jose
How about somebody else's peeps? How, exactly, are you defining "my peeps" here? Common grandparent? Common great-grandparent? Spouse? Ex-girlfriend? Neighbour? School-friend? School-friend's hot sister? Ex-girlfriend's brother's girlfriend? The waitress at your favourite cafe? The girl behind the counter at that place you got that great baklava that one time? Another family whose children go to the same school as yours? People who attend the same place of worship? Holders of the same passport? Residents in the same state? Members of the same species?
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Null=Empty Suit President

Postby morriswalters » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:39 am UTC

Belial wrote:I've been looking at this post for 10 minutes and I still don't understand it.
It's noise, if you give noise, I return noise. You haven't said anything, but you hate Nazi's. Gee, I hate Nazi's too.

If you want to punch them, there's a door in your house. Go out it and punch Nazi's. Nazi's punch back, they like to punch back. If they use a baseball bat, you use a baseball bat. If they murder, you murder. If that isn't what your saying, define the difference.

You attack anybody who isn't ready to get down to violence, for your pet causes.
Sableagle wrote:How about somebody else's peeps? How, exactly, are you defining "my peeps" here?
Directly, kick down the door of my house and I shoot you dead. Kick down the door of my neighbors house and I'll go to his aid. Part of my agreement with the rest of you is that if we agree, I'm ready to help if I can. But to keep it from devolving into a series of tit for tat responses, I'm prepared to take a little heat to keep from starting a fire. There may be a time when it's time for violence, but for me, personally it isn't now.

If you want to protest, protest. I support your right to do so. But I've been punched. That tells me that it's a two way street. Anything you can do, they can do as well. Let me translate what you really want. You want to play punch the Nazi and then cry for help when he punches back.

I don't think so. I'll defend you only if he comes at you first.

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1821
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:51 am UTC

I've tried really hard to stay out of this conversation, but Morris, that last statement of yours got me.

My grandfather was the sole survivor of his entire family. My grandmother, her uncle and one cousin were the only survivors on their side.

The Nazis already punched first.
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Null=Empty Suit President

Postby morriswalters » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:01 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:I've tried really hard to stay out of this conversation, but Morris, that last statement of yours got me.

My grandfather was the sole survivor of his entire family. My grandmother, her uncle and one cousin were the only survivors on their side.

The Nazis already punched first.
Yes I know. My angry old white man Father went to Europe and fought. The same man told my sister that if she married a black man he would disown her. He didn't actively seek to destroy blacks and he didn't hate them, but they were black and he was white. That was who he was. My family never had a black friend who was welcome in our home.

eran_rathan, I sorry that happened. But as many as 60 million people world wide died as a result of that war. Poles, Jews, Russians, Gypsies, in point of fact almost everybody lost someone. The Nazi's attempted to murder Downs children, like my son. They murdered anybody who opposed them. I hate white supremacist's for what they are, but neither will I attack them for something they haven't done yet.

The same people who are bitching about this, will just as vociferously pile on Empty Suit President because he threatens to preemptively strike Korea. They rest of us have to try and solve the problems while keeping the two sides apart and not letting things go to hell. We can't do it always and forever, but peace is measured as the intervals between the times we fail. Currently we are in the process of failing. Everybody is drifting to the endpoints.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26528
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:25 pm UTC

I don't think "This time let's stop Nazis *before* they start exterminating people" is any kind of extremist endpoint.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7185
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Null=Empty Suit President

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:28 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:They murdered anybody who opposed them. I hate white supremacist's for what they are, but neither will I attack them for something they haven't done yet.
It's reasonable to try and judge others based on what they've done rather than who they associate with... for certain values of "who".

I'm not going to judge someone because they're part of a violent gang. I'm not going to judge them because they're a Republican (I really, really want to, though). I'm not going to judge them because they're a Scientologist (again, I REALLY want to, but that wouldn't be fair).

But a Nazi? Replace this word with "People-Who-Want-To-Murder-Jews-And-Black-People". Now go back and read some of the stuff in this thread with that word swap in mind.

When you call yourself a Nazi, you are declaring your desire to see the majority of the world's population killed. More than that: You are declaring that you would like to help.

I think this is one of those cases where it's okay to be a little judgy. Maybe even a little punchy.

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1821
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: Null=Empty Suit President

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:37 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:They murdered anybody who opposed them.


yes they did. which is why someone who claims that ideology gets punched now, so people don't die. It is self defense.

And before anyone says something about free speech and freedom of association - the Nazis are perfectly free to say whatever they want. They are not free from the consequences, and no one is obligated to listen or enable them. Freedom of association works both ways, and I am glad to see companies finally dis-associating with them.
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

User avatar
Angua
Don't call her Delphine.
Posts: 5805
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:42 pm UTC
Location: UK/[St. Kitts and] Nevis Occasionally, I migrate to the US for a bit

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Angua » Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:56 pm UTC

Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
GNU Terry Pratchett

Chen
Posts: 5482
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: Null=Empty Suit President

Postby Chen » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:08 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:yes they did. which is why someone who claims that ideology gets punched now, so people don't die. It is self defense.


Punching or starting a brawl isn't self defense. It's catharsis. Self-defense would be more severe and would remove the threat. Punching and brawling is people getting frustrated and using violence as an outlet. There was talk upthread about Antifa groups stopping the Nazi groups from entering some other neighborhoods to cause trouble. I don't even know if violence was used there but that seems like a perfectly acceptable use of violence. But when it's two side simply yelling at each other, starting a brawl is not productive nor justified.

And before anyone says something about free speech and freedom of association - the Nazis are perfectly free to say whatever they want. They are not free from the consequences, and no one is obligated to listen or enable them. Freedom of association works both ways, and I am glad to see companies finally dis-associating with them.


100% agree with this. Private companies firing people who follow abhorrent ideologies is probably the best way to fight these, at least right now.

edit: Sort of unrelated, but more to the base topic of Trump, it appears Bannon now gave a Scaramucci-style interview where he somehow didn't realize he was on the record. It's surprisingly less bad than I would have thought. And Bannon is pretty media savvy. So much so I gotta wonder if this is some sort of play on his part. No evidence so it sounds too conspiratorial for my liking, but still take a look.

https://www.vox.com/2017/8/16/16159668/ ... n-prospect

User avatar
SDK
Posts: 669
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:40 pm UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:38 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Actually, Belial, what really strikes me (no pun intended) about that link is how the necessary and noble violence of some protesters in defense of themselves and others bears absolutely no resemblance to the kind of punch-a-Nazi-simply-because-Nazis-are-inherently-evil-and-deserve-to-be-punched vigilantism you seemed to be advocating earlier in the thread. And about which I share Jose's concern.

It's strange that the US government on the whole seems to understand how repugnant and dangerous these people are, yet does nothing. Most (all?) other Western nations have laws against hate speech that would prevent the Nazi's from staging rallies in the first place. If there are laws against it, you can rely on the police to deal with it instead of resorting to punching or whatever else you feel is justified (since fighting back against something legal with something illegal is a sure way to see your cause fail). It's a shame that those laws would never get traction among the American people. Maybe that's a good place to start - write your government representatives to let them know you wouldn't mind rolling back the 1st Amendment just a tiiiiiny bit so the proper authorities can deal with this so random people don't have to (whether or not they're acting in self-defense).
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7185
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:44 pm UTC

SDK wrote:It's strange that the US government on the whole seems to understand how repugnant and dangerous these people are, yet does nothing. Most (all?) other Western nations have laws against hate speech that would prevent the Nazi's from staging rallies in the first place. If there are laws against it, you can rely on the police to deal with it instead of resorting to punching or whatever else you feel is justified (since fighting back against something legal with something illegal is a sure way to see your cause fail). It's a shame that those laws would never get traction among the American people. Maybe that's a good place to start - write your government representatives to let them know you wouldn't mind rolling back the 1st Amendment just a tiiiiiny bit so the proper authorities can deal with this so random people don't have to (whether or not they're acting in self-defense).
I really don't think this would ever get much traction.

As much saber-rattling as you hear over the 2nd amendment, that's mostly because it's getting challenged. You don't hear much about the 1st amendment because nobody's got the gonads to go after it.

Hell, the only time it seems to come up is when private companies fire employees for saying shit on the job (when it's not even applicable).

User avatar
SDK
Posts: 669
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:40 pm UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:49 pm UTC

I don't think it would get traction either. But I think it should.
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7185
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:59 pm UTC

I don't know.

On one hand, it's a sacred cow that I've long stopped worshiping; on the other hand, making Nazi hate-speech illegal would probably just motivate the base, let them paint themselves as martyrs, and -- as you start prosecuting them -- end up injecting a lot of Nazis into an already bloated prison system where they could freely spread their infectious nonsense among a deeply disaffected population in desperate search for something to look toward.

I mean, I kind of agree with you on the 'Freedom of Speech is not more important than stopping Nazis' front, but I don't think this would actually stop (or even hinder) Nazis. This hypothetical universe might even end up with more Nazis. I think the only way it works is if we keep modifying it to the point where we theorize Nazism out of existence.

EDIT: Also, seriously, do you want to make Nazis proponents for free speech? Giving them that 'moral high-ground' (whether or not it is genuine) is a very dangerous prospect. I realize it's a lot of cognitive dissonance, but any scenario where we could legitimately expect to hear the phrase "Okay, the Nazis made a pretty good point about freedom of speech" is a scenario we definitely want to avoid.

User avatar
SDK
Posts: 669
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:40 pm UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:17 pm UTC

Ha, somehow I find that hypothetical sadly amusing. Hate speech is not something you would typically do jail time for though. The police would come in, break up the rally (violently if necessary), a bunch of people would get fines, a small handful would be charged for their violent deeds and you carry on your merry way. It's not about throwing all Nazis in jail, it's about the rule of law dealing with a threat so that random people don't have to. The government has a monopoly on violence for good reason.

Whether or not you can trust the police to enforce those laws is a different problem. The fact that in this specific case there are many reports of the police standing by allowing violence to happen is a very serious issue that needs to be addressed as well.

So... Hippo, what do you think should be done? Is bloody war between citizens of different factions inevitable?
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

iamspen
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 2:23 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby iamspen » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:20 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Also, seriously, do you want to make Nazis proponents for free speech? Giving them that 'moral high-ground' (whether or not it is genuine) is a very dangerous prospect. I realize it's a lot of cognitive dissonance, but any scenario where we could legitimately expect to hear the phrase "Okay, the Nazis made a pretty good point about freedom of speech" is a scenario we definitely want to avoid.


You're a bit late to that party.

It appears the alt-right collecting of blithering idiots are beginning to use free speech in the same way the evangelical blithering idiots use freedom of religion to bitch about how others don't follow their beliefs.

Make no mistake, this is a legitimizing tactic for this movement, and my above comparison suggests that it will work. The only way I can see them screwing this up is if they perpetrate more horrific violence, but that's a damn difficult thing to actually hope for.

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Postby morriswalters » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:22 pm UTC

SDK wrote:It's strange that the US government on the whole seems to understand how repugnant and dangerous these people are
Yeah, it's funny how the Constitution told the Government to not have an opinion. Greatest freedom for the greatest numbers. Back in the fifties gmalivuk would have been a left wing commie. Might have lost his job during a purge. Ended up in Hoovers files, hell maybe even been invited to testify before McCarthy.
gmalivuk wrote:I don't think "This time let's stop Nazis *before* they start exterminating people" is any kind of extremist endpoint.
I know, and it's the same reason that we are still fighting the Civil War. Most of what you call Nazi's are just what the Nazi's were then. Thugs. The jails are full of them. What made them dangerous were the conditions. The system was broken, the economy in tatters, and there was absolutely no leadership except Hindenburg. He sold the people out, through weakness. The Empty Suit presents that type of moral hazard. Go fight all the thugs you can. See you on the other side.
eran_rathan wrote:And before anyone says something about free speech and freedom of association - the Nazis are perfectly free to say whatever they want. They are not free from the consequences, and no one is obligated to listen or enable them. Freedom of association works both ways, and I am glad to see companies finally dis-associating with them.
Oh, were there some companies supporting the American Nazi Party or the Aryan Brotherhood. Seems like a move the goalposts type of thing.

However have fun Nazi punching. The reality is, go to any major city in America and yell Nazi, all you will get is arrested for, is for disturbing the police. :lol: If you go to where there are really Nazi's, throwing the first punch will be the least of your problems.

When I was young I lived near some guys that you might have considered Nazi's, outlaw bikers. One percent tats, swastikas, and their women sunbathed on the porch roof topless and nobody looked. Because if someone had stared they would have drug them out of their car and beat the crap out of them. Punching someone like that says something about you both.

Enough I think. I'm offended by having to see the Empty Suit next to my name.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Belial » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:23 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:
Belial wrote:Anyway, yes, what about the alt-left


Actually, Belial, what really strikes me (no pun intended) about that link is how the necessary and noble violence of some protesters in defense of themselves and others bears absolutely no resemblance to the kind of punch-a-Nazi-simply-because-Nazis-are-inherently-evil-and-deserve-to-be-punched vigilantism you seemed to be advocating earlier in the thread. And about which I share Jose's concern.

Palpatine already has the Nazis. Don't let him get you, too.


The purpose of antifa is and always has been self defense. Disrupting fascists wherever they gather and wherever they seek a platform is part of that, and so is defending more vulnerable people when those fascists go looking for a target as they inevitably, always do. It's all part of a cloth.

No part of it is just hitting fascists because it feels good. It *might* feel good, but considering they're much more organized and well-armed, there are probably better ways to get your violence kicks that don't risk life and limb.

Like, just because you guys don't get the nuance doesn't mean it's not there.

Also the light and dark side of the force were always stupid. Allow me to present a counterpoint
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Weeks
Hey Baby, wanna make a fortnight?
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:41 am UTC
Location: Ciudad de Panamá, Panamá

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:29 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Also the light and dark side of the force were always stupid. Allow me to present a counterpoint
The uploader has not made this video available in your country.
NieXS wrote:Oh god that smiley ruined it.
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
Mutex wrote:Enjoy the shoe!

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Belial » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:31 pm UTC

Mr Nancy (Compé Anansi) saying "angry is good. Angry gets shit done."
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
SDK
Posts: 669
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:40 pm UTC
Location: Canada

Re:

Postby SDK » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:28 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
SDK wrote:It's strange that the US government on the whole seems to understand how repugnant and dangerous these people are
Yeah, it's funny how the Constitution told the Government to not have an opinion. Greatest freedom for the greatest numbers. Back in the fifties gmalivuk would have been a left wing commie. Might have lost his job during a purge. Ended up in Hoovers files, hell maybe even been invited to testify before McCarthy.

Being a commie, or even spreading commie propaganda, is not hate speech. There is a line you can draw that allows one without the other.
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

User avatar
slinches
Slinches get Stinches
Posts: 1009
Joined: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:23 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby slinches » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:32 pm UTC

Anger leads to shit getting done, true. The problem is that what gets done in anger usually isn't worth shit.

Belial wrote:The purpose of antifa is and always has been self defense. Disrupting fascists wherever they gather and wherever they seek a platform is part of that

That isn't self-defense, it's unlawfully restricting the right of free movement and assembly. If fascists were blocking access to a peace rally, would you characterize that as a defensive act? I am a strong supporter of self-defense and you should be free to stand your ground in public if attacked, but that doesn't mean you have the right to impede others (even Nazis).

That said, Nazi ideology is terrible and I agree that it should be fought and pushed to the fringes. I just don't think physically attacking them or denying them basic human rights is an effective strategy. Instead of denying them any access to public grounds we should be denying them access to any ideological grounds. Fight the ideology of Nazism, not the Nazis themselves. Starve them of new recruits by providing better alternatives. In a free market of ideas, the better ones will win and the abhorrent ones will die off with the individuals that hold them.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: D-503 and 14 guests