Trump presidency

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sardia
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:00 pm UTC


I counter with wapo saying the book is full of shit, but might have some diamonds in the shit. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... istration/
I would take it with a grain of salt. That book sounds like lazy as hell reporting.

Edit anyone see manafort challenging Mueller on his indictment? Looks like he's not going down without a fight. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/03/trump-e ... stice.html
It might mean he won't turn on Trump.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:05 pm UTC

sardia wrote:You're worried over the wrong thing, mostly because you are complaining about what he might do instead of what horrible thing he's doing now.
Do you legitimately believe I'm not worried about the other stuff?

I was responding to a post about a possible escalation to nuclear war.
sardia wrote:You're random Trump tweet of the day just doesn't compare. Go look back at your posts about Trump, and see which ones still matter 12 months later.
I'll have to install wifi in my fallout shelter, first.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:11 pm UTC

Screw that, I already have Wi-Fi installed in my T-60 power armor. Crawl out through the fallout, baby, back to my loving arms...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:13 pm UTC

I've always wondered, what happens to people fired from top government positions? I mean, couldn't Muller always apply for a job as a special agent of the FBI and put on his resume, "I was your boss for over a decade," or he could always go into the private sector. Other than the title and some money, what do these people really lose when they get fired?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:59 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:He's wildly arrogant, dangerously insane, emotionally stunted, morally undeveloped, NPD personified, and a giant manbaby. Any one of those would make him unfit to be president. None of them require that he's a moron

True, but one look at any attempt of his to speak about pretty much any topic under the sun would require one to conclude that either he is a moron, or else he is expertly pretending to be a moron for some reason and never breaking character in any circumstance where that might be leaked to the public.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:23 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:True, but one look at any attempt of his to speak about pretty much any topic under the sun would require one to conclude that either he is a moron, or else he is expertly pretending to be a moron for some reason and never breaking character in any circumstance where that might be leaked to the public.

He definitely oversimplifies and overpromises even more than the average politician, but the question is how knowingly he does so.

Given that he used to have fairly Democratic leanings up until running for president, I think his public persona is more calculated than many give him credit for.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:32 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Given that he used to have fairly Democratic leanings up until running for president, I think his public persona is more calculated than many give him credit for.


Democratic leanings? I think he just made the right noises to allow him to cosy up to Democrats, back when it was advantageous to his own interests to do so.

He doesn't really believe in anything larger than himself.

(Granted, his ego is amazingly large, and expanding all the time. But to him, nothing in the universe is larger or more important. That's the only cause or god that he has ever served, and ever will.)
Last edited by ObsessoMom on Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:33 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:33 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:True, but one look at any attempt of his to speak about pretty much any topic under the sun would require one to conclude that either he is a moron, or else he is expertly pretending to be a moron for some reason and never breaking character in any circumstance where that might be leaked to the public.

He definitely oversimplifies and overpromises even more than the average politician, but the question is how knowingly he does so.

Given that he used to have fairly Democratic leanings up until running for president, I think his public persona is more calculated than many give him credit for.

He was a Democrat because they were the élite he wanted to rub shoulders with in NYC. I doubt he gives a whit for most social issues, ignoring his racism and Islamaphobia. So, yes, his public face is calculated, but it's the sort of calculation that gives us "two Corinthians", grotesque descriptions of abortion that made even anti-choice people reject the imagery, and an obsession with having bigger Things, to name a few.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:37 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:True, but one look at any attempt of his to speak about pretty much any topic under the sun would require one to conclude that either he is a moron, or else he is expertly pretending to be a moron for some reason and never breaking character in any circumstance where that might be leaked to the public.

He definitely oversimplifies and overpromises even more than the average politician, but the question is how knowingly he does so.

Given that he used to have fairly Democratic leanings up until running for president, I think his public persona is more calculated than many give him credit for.

You mean more calculated than a rat pressing buttons as dopamine rushes to its brain? Because he has good instincts about pleasing the crowd, and how he acts without a crowd is markedly different than when he's 1 on 1. Of course, now that he's either alone, subsisting entirely on cable news, all bets are off...

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/wh ... n-in-2018/ In other news, 538 starts betting on 2018, on what will likely happen, and what's unlikely to happen.
The Great Hippo wrote:
sardia wrote:You're worried over the wrong thing, mostly because you are complaining about what he might do instead of what horrible thing he's doing now.
Do you legitimately believe I'm not worried about the other stuff?

I was responding to a post about a possible escalation to nuclear war.
sardia wrote:You're random Trump tweet of the day just doesn't compare. Go look back at your posts about Trump, and see which ones still matter 12 months later.
I'll have to install wifi in my fallout shelter, first.
Ok, that's fair, but I think anything to do with tweeting is kinda overrated. Show me Trump mobilizing fleets (and not just saying he's doing it while the ships sail the other way) and I'll perk my ears up.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:45 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Democratic leanings? I think he just made the right noises to allow him to cosy up to Democrats, back when it was advantageous to his own interests to do so.
I don't even think he's aware that he does this. I'm sure he thinks he has values, but he clearly doesn't; his values are the values of whatever club he's currently a member of.
sardia wrote:You mean more calculated than a rat pressing buttons as dopamine rushes to its brain? Because he has good instincts about pleasing the crowd, and how he acts without a crowd is markedly different than when he's 1 on 1. Of course, now that he's either alone, subsisting entirely on cable news, all bets are off...
Basically this; he's just a social chameleon who adopts whatever gets him the most positive attention right now. This is why he's having political rallies -- I mean, who has political rallies after they won? Someone who needs a crowd chanting his name.

Every decision he's made -- every move he's taken -- everything he's done as President -- can be explained by just re-imagining him as an 8 year old desperate for attention.

Except for the sex bus stuff. I'm pretty sure even 8 year olds can learn to keep their hands to themselves.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:01 am UTC

elasto wrote:He definitely oversimplifies and overpromises even more than the average politician, but the question is how knowingly he does so.

I mean things like how he has trouble saying not-that-uncommon words that are written right in front of him, until he finally notices that his pronunciation doesn't match the spelling and then corrects himself, as though he didn't know that word until he had to read it for this speech, and didn't learn how to actually say it until the middle of the speech.

I guess technically that's lack of education not lack of intelligence, but especially with his age and opportunities, those things are pretty highly correlated. (i.e. it's a stretch to imagine a rich, old, intelligent person somehow still being uneducated at his age, and since he's definitely rich, old, and evidently still uneducated...)
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dark567 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:03 am UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:I've always wondered, what happens to people fired from top government positions? I mean, couldn't Muller always apply for a job as a special agent of the FBI and put on his resume, "I was your boss for over a decade," or he could always go into the private sector. Other than the title and some money, what do these people really lose when they get fired?
Very few orgs want to put someone who was leading them into a lower ranked position. Said person would have a lot of non-conferred authority just by virtue of their previous status as the leader of the org. Mueller could work in virtually no FBI position outside of the Director or emeritus advisor to the director etc. Private sector though? Tons of law firms would love to put a lawyer who was a former FBI director into a partner position and most those positions would pay substantially more than any government job. The money isn't really at risk from a firing, Mueller most likely does this out of a sense of patriotism and duty. He has little to lose personally from being fired, but he knows the US has a lot to lose from it.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:35 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:(i.e. it's a stretch to imagine a rich, old, intelligent person somehow still being uneducated at his age, and since he's definitely rich, old, and evidently still uneducated...)


Anti-intellectualism is NOT exclusive to the stupid. Pol Pot was fairly educated, being a geography teacher and all, but he wasn't exactly known for promoting higher education.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:03 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I mean, here we are -- it's 2018. We've elected a reality TV star as our president, and we might end up having a nuclear war on account of his fucking Twitter account.

When I was in grade school they would take us into the halls to practice hiding from nuclear attack. The risk has always been there. Welcome to my childhood. If it is any consolation there are fewer nukes in play today.
jewish_scientist wrote:I've always wondered, what happens to people fired from top government positions? I mean, couldn't Muller always apply for a job as a special agent of the FBI and put on his resume, "I was your boss for over a decade," or he could always go into the private sector. Other than the title and some money, what do these people really lose when they get fired?
Do due diligence. They write books and make deals. He was at his professional peak, everything else is about ego stroking. He worth at least a million in publishing rights. And probably much more. Look at the Watergate conspirators.
CorruptUser wrote:He's wildly arrogant, dangerously insane, emotionally stunted, morally undeveloped, NPD personified, and a giant manbaby.
He's an Empty Suit. Having said that, he's wealthy and he won the election as a rank amateur over accomplished politicians. So by any metric you might care to use he's successful. He spanked the Republican Establishment and made Hillary look like a fool. He was the right man for this time. That says more about this time than him.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:10 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:Having said that, he's wealthy and he won the election as a rank amateur over accomplished politicians. So by any metric you might care to use he's successful.

Winning the election counts as a kind of success, for sure, but his wealth isn't really the result of any success on his own part, any more than being gifted a winning lottery ticket for your birthday is "success". Something good happened to him: his father left him a ton of money. But he hasn't done anything better than average to further that advantage: any mediocre run-of-the-mill index fund would have made better returns on investment than the things he's done with his money.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:40 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Something good happened to him: his father left him a ton of money. But he hasn't done anything better than average to further that advantage: any mediocre run-of-the-mill index fund would have made better returns on investment than the things he's done with his money.
The same thing might have been said of the Kennedy's. Or the Bush's. He crude and unsophisticated. I don't like him. But neither will I underestimate him because I think he's a fool. You can see where that got everybody who was in the position to stop him. And I don't worry about nuclear war, I was a cold war baby. Anyway, what do I know?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby iamspen » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:59 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:But neither will I underestimate him because I think he's a fool.


Could be we're not underestimating him because he's a fool, could be we're terrified of him because he's a fool.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby idonno » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:55 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:But he hasn't done anything better than average to further that advantage: any mediocre run-of-the-mill index fund would have made better returns on investment than the things he's done with his money.

He hasn't made any more money than average. How well he has done depends on what he wants. What would he do with more money? He has been buying/building monuments to himself and access to violate women. If that is what drives him, I'd say he has done well above average with that money.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:10 am UTC

That doesn't change the point that him having money is not a sign of success, since he didn't do anything special to get it. Maybe lucking into it enabled other kinds of success, probably including winning the presidency, but that's beside the point.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:50 am UTC

He certainly pretends that he has money, and people seem willing to take his own word for it, despite knowing what a liar he is.

His multiple bankruptcies, desperation to keep his IRS returns private, history of not paying tradespeople for their services, and penchant for getting shady characters to foot the bill for his extravagances suggest that the facts may be otherwise, though.

I think the only thing he's really successful at is getting people to believe he's successful. He's a con artist.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Ginger » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:52 am UTC

Trump shouldn't be president. I'd take Hillary over Trump any day. The First Female President is a dominating lady like her? Yes-Yes. She'd run circles around Trump and since she calls herself liberal would ACTUALLY PROTECT LGBTIQQA people. I didn't like her saying she wanted to make other states adopt a, "New York state of mind though." But she only said that once. Anyways: Trump is a liar, he's deceitful, he talks about how he would fuck his daughter if she weren't his daughter and tries to excuse away sexual harassment of women by him as just being, "Boys talking like boys in the locker rooms." Trump can go to Hell and Hillary can rise and take his place! <3
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:41 pm UTC

Um...one of the reasons Trump is president is that Hillary had became the only viable alternative, and she absolutely reeked of corruption.

Spoiler:
If countries like Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, Brunei and Algeria really cared about girls' education, they would have spent millions on girls' education DIRECTLY. Instead, they donated those same millions to the Clinton Foundation (supposedly "to promote girls' education"--yeah, right, who believes that?).

All those corporate and international donors--among them, "the son-in-law of a former Ukrainian president whose government was widely criticized for corruption and the murder of journalists" and "a Lebanese-Nigerian developer with vast business interests," according to the New York Times--who contributed millions must have thought that they were straight-up buying favors from her.

Pay-to-play is the normal state of affairs in much of the world, where bribery is simply the cost of doing business.

I voted for her, because Trump was so much worse, but I cried about it. Seriously. And many other close friends of mine couldn't bring themselves to vote for her, even though they found the notion of a President Trump repugnant.

Frankly, if we're ever going to get a better president than Trump, the alternatives we're given have to be a lot more palatable than Hillary Clinton.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dark567 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:32 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:
[spoiler]If countries like Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, Brunei and Algeria really cared about girls' education, they would have spent millions on girls' education DIRECTLY. Instead, they donated those same millions to the Clinton Foundation (supposedly "to promote girls' education"--yeah, right, who believes that?).
The Clinton Foundation does a lot of things and of its programs, the "No Ceilings" program you are referencing is the most recent and least funded. The biggest program the Foundation carries out is the Clinton Health Access Initiative (CHAI), which is set up to provide HIV/AIDS medication. It funds antiviral medications to over 12 million people; If governments are giving to the foundation, chances are that's where most of the money is going.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:17 pm UTC

Sorry, my remark was very sloppy. I am aware of CHAI (and of some criticisms of its juggernaut effect on other, less-glamorous programs, as in a Feb. 2017 New York Times article).

Spoiler:
Across the worldwide outposts where the Clinton Foundation has a presence, speculation about its future has been rampant. In some foreign countries, CHAI has been accused of using the Clintons’ influence to pressure governments into pursuing certain initiatives, or rewarding favored American development partners.

“If they disappear it would be very ironic,” said Dr. Patricia A. McQuilkin, an associate professor of pediatrics at the University of Massachusetts Medical School.

Speaking from Liberia, she said CHAI’s initiatives in the wake of the Ebola epidemic had sidelined longtime academic partnerships like hers. “They insinuate themselves into the whole process and try to take it over,” she said.

The scale, scope, and complexity of the Clinton Foundation's activities makes the potential conflicts of interest very difficult even for the fact-checker sites to sort out. For example [Edited to say--Apologies, the following isn't really an example of that, but of other complexities], in October 2017, PolitiFact concluded "Clinton role still unclear" when it revisited its previous investigation of claims about Clinton's role in the approval of the uranium deal involving a big Clinton Foundation donor. The PolitiFact staff did note that Hillary's opponents' claims regarding that uranium deal have frequently gone way too far, on too little evidence.

But I'm left, like many others, thinking, "Well, even though I know that a lot of the accusations have been wildly exaggerated...something still doesn't smell quite right about the whole thing."

(Does Trump smell worse? Oh, hell yeah.)
Last edited by ObsessoMom on Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:35 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:21 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:
ObsessoMom wrote:... Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, Brunei and Algeria ...
The biggest program the Foundation carries out is the Clinton Health Access Initiative (CHAI), which is set up to provide HIV/AIDS medication. It funds antiviral medications to over 12 million people; If governments are giving to the foundation, chances are that's where most of the money is going.
If you really want to point out that this rabbit-hole is awfully deep and ask which pill you took from Morpheus, you could start wondering whether some powers within Saudi would have found it easier to sell giving money to the Foundation to other powers within Saudi as buying favours than to do as much good for the cause of girls' education with less money more directly.

See? Middle East politics. You have to read the sentence three times to know which clause goes where before you can even wonder whether you agree.

[quote]

Code: Select all

  1   Lesotho               761.77
  2   Swaziland             537.97
  3   Mozambique            466.11
  4   South Africa          412.82
  5   Zambia                361.95
 
 80   Azerbaijan              6.20
 81   Oman                    6.09
 82   Colombia                6.05

106   Chile                   2.24
107   United States           2.20
108   Kazakhstan              1.81

116   Mongolia                1.01
117   Brunei                  0.98
118   Canada                  0.86
119   Sri Lanka               0.81

129   Denmark                 0.42
130   United Kingdom          0.42
131   Austria                 0.40

145   Cyprus                  0.17
146   Qatar                   0.14
147   Sweden                  0.12
148   Kuwait                  0.11
149   New Zealand             0.11

165   Montenegro              0.00
166   Saudi Arabia            0.00
167   Singapore               0.00
168   Solomon Isl.            0.00
169   Syria                   0.00
170   Timor-Leste             0.00
171   Turkmenistan            0.00
172   Arab Emirates           0.00


Saudi Arabia may have bigger problems than HIV this quarter-century.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:30 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:He certainly pretends that he has money, and people seem willing to take his own word for it, despite knowing what a liar he is.


There is some room for dispute over just how many billions he has, and in what form they exist; but he clearly has money. The biggest lie is that he's actually any good with money; he likes to present himself as some kind of master businessman, and the reality is that at best, he's maybe a little above average. He knows how to read the public and sell himself, but mostly he's just a guy who started out with a lot and kept most of it. He's had some wins, and some losses, and he knows how to work the system to weather the losses.

His multiple bankruptcies, desperation to keep his IRS returns private, history of not paying tradespeople for their services, and penchant for getting shady characters to foot the bill for his extravagances suggest that the facts may be otherwise, though.


Bankruptcies in and of themselves aren't really an indicator. He does a lot of business based on speculation, and bankruptcies are part of that game. Also, for someone like Trump, bankruptcy is just a way to avoid paying for things... Most people see bankruptcy as a failure; people like Trump see it as a sort of cheat code in the game of finance. He does have an abysmal record when it comes to paying people for their labor; but despite that, he's always had tradespeople lining up around the block to work for him.

I think the only thing he's really successful at is getting people to believe he's successful. He's a con artist.


Oh, most definitely... but the thing is, it's worked. Not because he's really the business genius he's pretending to be, but because he can sell himself as that, despite not being it. People like to pick on the massive failures... but he always comes out of them unscathed. A small part of why he's president may be that people didn't take him seriously.

Really, if the guy wasn't such a monumental piece of shit, his career would almost be admirable.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:49 pm UTC

Clinton is almost certainly shady if not downright corrupt, but let's play devil's advocate for a moment:

Would it be possible even in theory for her to avoid the perception of impropriety? She is politically very powerful; She has numerous charitable interests; People don't trust the government and dislike high taxes, so pretty much the only way to achieve good in this world is to solicit donations.

I mean, if you know you definitely aren't corrupt but the same can't be said for other charities, wouldn't you try your best to get people to donate to you to do the maximum amount of good?

Basically, if we assume for sake of argument she was actually pure as the driven snow, wouldn't these same sort of smears get levelled at her regardless..? Or should she refuse donations from anyone who isn't regarded as pure as the driven snow also..?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Ginger » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:57 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Um...one of the reasons Trump is president is that Hillary had became the only viable alternative, and she absolutely reeked of corruption.

Spoiler:
If countries like Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, Brunei and Algeria really cared about girls' education, they would have spent millions on girls' education DIRECTLY. Instead, they donated those same millions to the Clinton Foundation (supposedly "to promote girls' education"--yeah, right, who believes that?).

All those corporate and international donors--among them, "the son-in-law of a former Ukrainian president whose government was widely criticized for corruption and the murder of journalists" and "a Lebanese-Nigerian developer with vast business interests," according to the New York Times--who contributed millions must have thought that they were straight-up buying favors from her.

Pay-to-play is the normal state of affairs in much of the world, where bribery is simply the cost of doing business.

I voted for her, because Trump was so much worse, but I cried about it. Seriously. And many other close friends of mine couldn't bring themselves to vote for her, even though they found the notion of a President Trump repugnant.

Frankly, if we're ever going to get a better president than Trump, the alternatives we're given have to be a lot more palatable than Hillary Clinton.

I shall read what you placed in the spoiler but I still think Hillary Clinton would be a better president than Trump. Trump is a sexual abuser who wants to fuck his own daughter. Hillary is a liberal with strong values and a confident personality who, as far as I know, has never sexually abused. Hillary C. is better than D. Trump.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:58 pm UTC

cphite wrote:The biggest lie is that he's actually any good with money; he likes to present himself as some kind of master businessman, and the reality is that at best, he's maybe a little above average.
... a little ... above ... average?
Trump fails to create promised jobs and investment in Scotland, locals say

Mr Trump warned this week that he will pull out the vast bulk of investment - £500 million - from the Menie Estate in Balmedie, Aberdeenshire. The other £200 million would be removed from Turnberry, a golf course in Ayrshire that he purchased for £40 million in 2014.

The first project on the coastal Menie estate started almost a decade ago with plans to invest $1.5 (£1.02) billion, numbers that were repeated by former Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond in 2009, to build a five star hotel, a golf course and 1,500 houses. Mr Trump also said he would create 6,000 jobs.

There are currently 150 people directly employed on the Menie golf resort.

According to documents from UK public database Companies House, the Menie estate golf course has made multi-million pound losses over the last three years. The estate made a loss of £1.3 million in 2014, a loss of £1.8 million in 2013 and a further loss of £1.7 million in 2012.

“The Menie estate has been valued at £30 million - and it has lost millions since it opened in 2012,” Mr Baxter said.


Trump-owned Doonbeg golf resort has yet to turn a profit

US president Donald Trump’s investment in the west Clare golf resort of Doonbeg has yet to make a profit despite a 30 per cent jump in revenues to €6.5 million, according to accounts just filed.

Figures for the Trump-owned TIGL Ireland Enterprises Ltd for 2016 show that it continues to make operating losses, although these almost halved in that year to to €807,090.

The accounts show that €3.1 million was ploughed into the resort firm in 2016 by the Trump organisation on top of €5.5 million the previous year.

Ongoing investment in the course contributed to pre-tax losses of €2.2 million in 2016, 14 per cent lower than the €2.57 million in losses sustained in 2015.

Mr Trump resigned as a board member of TIGL Ireland Enterprises Ltd days prior to being sworn in as US president last January. However, the accounts confirm that the US president retains his 100 per cent shareholding in the Doonbeg company.


Trump Worth $10 Billion Less Than If He’d Simply Invested in Index Funds

Forbes reports Donald Trump is worth $4.1 billion; Trump says $10 billion. Either way, he'd be worth a lot more if he simply retired 30 years ago and put his money in an unmanaged stock fund.

There’s considerable debate about Trump’s net worth. It’s estimated at $4.1 billion in the latest “Forbes 400” list, which puts him in the No. 133 spot of the richest folks in America. However, in July, he issued a press release announcing his net worth at $10 billion.

From 1982 through the end of 2014, the S&P 500 index had an annualized return, including reinvested dividends, of 11.86 percent, according to MoneyChimp’s S&P 500 Compound Annual Growth Rate calculator.

Per this calculator, every dollar invested in January 1982 would have been worth $40 by December of 2014. That means Trump’s initial $500 million would have grown to $20 billion. That’s twice what Trump says he’s worth today.


Convincing people you're a successful businessman and onto a winning plan that'll pay huge dividends, taking their money and then not paying it back is ... ah ...

... well, apart from fraud, it's the basis of a pyramid scheme, isn't it?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:15 pm UTC

Ginger wrote:I still think Hillary Clinton would be a better president than Trump.


Oh, I enthusiastically agree. I did, after all, vote for her, despite my misgivings.

But saying that she, or anyone for that matter, would be a better president than Trump is pretty faint praise, considering how low he has set the bar. I think she would have been spectacularly better, in every area, and I think her character is far more admirable.

Dang, even that sounds like faint praise.

Dark567, I do appreciate your correction above. Reading what I wrote, I see that I appear to be just brushing it off. But I admit that the distortions generated by Clinton's opponents have had a deleterious effect on me, and the provision of facts and clarifications, as you did, to help combat that effect is important. Thanks.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:34 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:
cphite wrote:The biggest lie is that he's actually any good with money; he likes to present himself as some kind of master businessman, and the reality is that at best, he's maybe a little above average.
... a little ... above ... average?


Depending on what you believe he actually has right now, he ranges somewhere between utterly fucking terrible and slightly better than average. I was saying "at best" so I picked the upper end of the range.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:00 pm UTC

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... treasonous
Going back over this, at first I thought this was mostly crap reporting. However, other journalists are covering it as real. Has anyone been able to find corroborating evidence or validated the author somehow?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby commodorejohn » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:12 pm UTC

sardia wrote:https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/01/03/575295244/steve-bannon-is-quoted-saying-trump-tower-meeting-was-treasonous
Going back over this, at first I thought this was mostly crap reporting. However, other journalists are covering it as real. Has anyone been able to find corroborating evidence or validated the author somehow?

According to Axios, Wolff has tapes of quite a lot of these conversations.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:32 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Clinton is almost certainly shady if not downright corrupt, but let's play devil's advocate for a moment:

Would it be possible even in theory for her to avoid the perception of impropriety? She is politically very powerful; She has numerous charitable interests; People don't trust the government and dislike high taxes, so pretty much the only way to achieve good in this world is to solicit donations.


Probably not while keeping the Clinton Foundation in its current form. If Bill and Chelsea had resigned as chair and vice-chair of the Foundation and its operations moved to arms-length individuals, essentially treating it as equivalent to a blind trust, that would probably have helped considerably.

OTOH, I do think that it is possible that sufficiently large conflicts of interest with respect to foreign powers ought to inherently disqualify you from high office. Not everyone has to be President of the United States.

Basically, if we assume for sake of argument she was actually pure as the driven snow, wouldn't these same sort of smears get levelled at her regardless..? Or should she refuse donations from anyone who isn't regarded as pure as the driven snow also..?


Sure. The appearance of corruption is nearly as bad as actual corruption. This is public service 101.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:54 pm UTC

LaserGuy, just to make sure I'm not going mad, your picture used to be some kind of 8-bit Mario image, right?

RIGHT???
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:14 pm UTC

Liri wrote:LaserGuy, just to make sure I'm not going mad, your picture used to be some kind of 8-bit Mario image, right?

RIGHT???


Yes.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Ginger » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:02 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
elasto wrote:Basically, if we assume for sake of argument she was actually pure as the driven snow, wouldn't these same sort of smears get levelled at her regardless..? Or should she refuse donations from anyone who isn't regarded as pure as the driven snow also..?


Sure. The appearance of corruption is nearly as bad as actual corruption. This is public service 101.

Um. No-No-No-NO. ACTUAL CORRUPTION is always forever always worse than the mere appearance of corruption. Having the appearance of corruption lets your enemies ruin your reputation. Actual Corruption gets you fired, sued, shunned and the cops/the court called on you and you get removed from your position whether you like it or not. Real Life 101.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:05 am UTC

Ginger wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
elasto wrote:Basically, if we assume for sake of argument she was actually pure as the driven snow, wouldn't these same sort of smears get levelled at her regardless..? Or should she refuse donations from anyone who isn't regarded as pure as the driven snow also..?


Sure. The appearance of corruption is nearly as bad as actual corruption. This is public service 101.

Um. No-No-No-NO. ACTUAL CORRUPTION is always forever always worse than the mere appearance of corruption. Having the appearance of corruption lets your enemies ruin your reputation. Actual Corruption gets you fired, sued, shunned and the cops/the court called on you and you get removed from your position whether you like it or not. Real Life 101.


Your faith in the justice system for political/white collar crimes is wildly optimistic.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Ginger » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:20 am UTC

And as long as we keep saying blatantly false things like, "You can be actually corrupt and if you just Appear to Be Corrupt that's just as bad am I right guys? Girls? Anyone?" Because it's just not true. Real Corruption is always worse than fake corruption. Even for pretty pretty public service workers that depend on their reputations to survive, even for Presidents and even for any politician. If you get caught takin' bribes or making biased decisions that discriminate you Will Be Terminated... Eventually. No, the justice system isn't perfect, but if we all had some faith and goodwill towards it then it might just actually get better and Trump--I mean any dirty politician shall actually be brought to justice.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:32 pm UTC

The secondary damage of a publicized crime is orders of magnitude greater than the damage from the crime itself. What's the impact of one murder? It's more than just one person dead. To go to an extreme example, 3000 African Americans were lynched between the end of reconstruction and the civil rights movement, yet this has done far more to harm African Americans than the 50-100k that were killed by pellagra during the same time, yet chances are you never even heard of pellagra before.

Same with the crimes of corruption. Fake news is DANGEROUS, because it creates all the secondary damage even if the primary damage never occurred. So yeah, false reports of corruption are almost as bad as actual corruption.



For the curious, pellagra is caused by niacin deficiency, which is why if you look on the ingredients section of enriched flour it contains niacin, along with iron and maybe a few other things. Without niacin, the body can't create the connective tissues in skin, and, well... there isn't a description of any deadly disease that isn't vomit inducing.


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