Trump presidency

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EdgarJPublius
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby EdgarJPublius » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:47 pm UTC

idonno wrote:
Sableagle wrote:To get back on topic,
Trump Says Classmates Knew Florida Shooting Suspect 'Was a Big Problem' and Should Have Reported Him

Trump says: “So many signs that the Florida shooter was mentally disturbed, even expelled from school for bad and erratic behavior. Neighbors and classmates knew he was a big problem. Must always report such instances to authorities, again and again!”


How many kids is this true of that don't go on to shoot up schools? What would the authorities do with a report? Even if they could afford to monitor every kid that fits this criteria, they aren't legally allowed to do that.


Those kids need help regardless of whether or not they might one day shoot up a school or whatever. They don't need to be 'monitored' by authorities, or locked up or anything, they need to see a counselor, a therapist or a psychiatrist/psychologist.

edit: it'd probably also be good if more people were able to recognize other human beings as people and not fantasy caricatures...
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby idonno » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:07 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:Those kids need help regardless of whether or not they might one day shoot up a school or whatever. They don't need to be 'monitored' by authorities, or locked up or anything, they need to see a counselor, a therapist or a psychiatrist/psychologist.

edit: it'd probably also be good if more people were able to recognize other human beings as people and not fantasy caricatures...

I somehow don't think that is what the authoritarian, Trump, was calling for when he said " Must always report such instances to authorities, again and again!"

Also, I am skeptical of the ability of the authorities to do anything like that and I am reasonably certain that reporting him wouldn't have accomplished anything like that.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:28 pm UTC

idonno wrote:I am skeptical of the ability of the authorities to do anything like ...
EdgarJPublius wrote:... recognize other human beings as people and not fantasy caricatures...
Fair enough, really.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby EdgarJPublius » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:36 pm UTC

idonno wrote:
EdgarJPublius wrote:Those kids need help regardless of whether or not they might one day shoot up a school or whatever. They don't need to be 'monitored' by authorities, or locked up or anything, they need to see a counselor, a therapist or a psychiatrist/psychologist.

edit: it'd probably also be good if more people were able to recognize other human beings as people and not fantasy caricatures...

I somehow don't think that is what the authoritarian, Trump, was calling for when he said " Must always report such instances to authorities, again and again!"

Also, I am skeptical of the ability of the authorities to do anything like that and I am reasonably certain that reporting him wouldn't have accomplished anything like that.


I don't think we disagree?

The idea that 'reporting' this kind of thing to any kind of 'authority' would be at all helpful is a gross misunderstanding of what the problem actually is. And also a gross misunderstanding of statistics I guess
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:31 pm UTC

idonno wrote:Also, I am skeptical of the ability of the authorities to do anything like that and I am reasonably certain that reporting him wouldn't have accomplished anything like that.


Skepticism confirmed!
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ol-shooter

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:50 pm UTC

Scott who is strongly considering a Senate run to challenge Democratic incumbent Bill Nelson, is like Rubio, a favorite among the NRA, who noted in 2014 that he had signed “more pro-gun bills into law — in one term — than any other Governor in Florida history.” Nelson and Scott have contrasting ratings from the NRA: Nelson has an F and Scott has an A+.

When asked Wednesday evening about gun control laws following the shooting, Scott said there would be a time for those conversations in the future.


The problem, of course, being that school shootings are so common in the United States that there will never be a time for those conversations because they keep needing to postpone them for another shooting.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:25 am UTC

Yes, today's newspaper described it as "one of the worst school shootings in the US on Wednesday."
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:12 am UTC

Could someone explain to me the big deal about Stormy Daniels? It's not like there's people who think that Trump DIDN'T screw around, and it's almost doing the guy a favor considering that his persona is "I'm the guy you wish you were, I fuck the women you wish you could fuck!"

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:31 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Could someone explain to me the big deal about Stormy Daniels? It's not like there's people who think that Trump DIDN'T screw around, and it's almost doing the guy a favor considering that his persona is "I'm the guy you wish you were, I fuck the women you wish you could fuck!"

I'm not sure why the story - true or not - is a big deal, really. It is significant that Trump's lawyer paid her six-figures out of his own pocket because ... well, maybe he's just a fan. Presidents have (allegedly) done better (Marilyn Monroe) and worse (Monica Lewinsky).

I may be old-fashioned in my belief that adultery is wrong, but I think it's just as wrong to pretend presidents aren't people.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:56 am UTC

I think it’s notable that ‘family values’ Republican hypocrites aren’t apoplectic over a sitting president having an affair with a porn star of all people.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:51 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Could someone explain to me the big deal about Stormy Daniels? It's not like there's people who think that Trump DIDN'T screw around, and it's almost doing the guy a favor considering that his persona is "I'm the guy you wish you were, I fuck the women you wish you could fuck!"

Trump feels bad about it? Like normally he brags about himself, so it's weird that he has hidden multiple affairs. Stormy and the playboy bunny are 2 that are outed right now. If he wasn't trying to hide it, why pay for them? Democrats sense weakness here, so they're attacking. The media sees a juicy story (tits+cloak & dagger)

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:10 pm UTC

It's almost like they are playing into his hands though, his hyuuuge hands...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:51 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Could someone explain to me the big deal about Stormy Daniels? It's not like there's people who think that Trump DIDN'T screw around, and it's almost doing the guy a favor considering that his persona is "I'm the guy you wish you were, I fuck the women you wish you could fuck!"

I'm not sure why the story - true or not - is a big deal, really. It is significant that Trump's lawyer paid her six-figures out of his own pocket because ... well, maybe he's just a fan. Presidents have (allegedly) done better (Marilyn Monroe) and worse (Monica Lewinsky).

I may be old-fashioned in my belief that adultery is wrong, but I think it's just as wrong to pretend presidents aren't people.

Are you saying the Monica Lewinsky scandal wasn't a big deal either? I don't think many democrats would be as lenient towards Bill as you.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:45 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I think it’s notable that ‘family values’ Republican hypocrites aren’t apoplectic over a sitting president having an affair with a porn star of all people.


This. Remember that some of these people think that 9/11 happened because "we legitimize abortion" and "legitimize homosexuality":

Senate candidate Roy Moore this year suggested 9/11 might have been punishment for US turning away from God

Legitimizing adultery seems to be increasingly okay with them, though. Heck, look who is Trump's ambassador to the Holy See, for cryin' out loud.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:28 pm UTC

But for Trump's base, the bro's of varying ages, Trump humping a porn star is proof that he is the living embodiment of Broseidon.

Much like his "shithole countries" comments, it's once again a nothingburger and the constant media attention is doing the guy a favor, the tweet writes itself. "Oh look, the MSM has to harp on a non-story. Sad." All he has to do is reiterate the message that the media is out to get him by focusing on a bunch of meaningless nonsense, and it innoculates the public against the real problems the guy has, the ones that should disqualify him from being a school janitor, let alone the President.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:38 am UTC

Yablo wrote:I may be old-fashioned in my belief that adultery is wrong, but I think it's just as wrong to pretend presidents aren't people.
Leadership requires strength of character, principle, and conviction.

Committing adultery doesn't mean you lack these qualities. But serial adultery? Then paying off one of your partners with hush money? And getting your lawyer to lie for you to cover it all up? What about committing serial sexual harassment? Or how about running the Miss Teen Universe pageant and walking in on a bunch of underage teenage girls while they were changing? Then later bragging about it on the radio?

I think this country should have strong leaders with character, principle, and conviction -- not a 70+ year old washed up reality TV star who's mistaken the highest office in the world for a gritty reboot of Animal House.

But hey, y'know -- maybe I'm just old fashioned.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:54 pm UTC

I hate the guy. This doesn't make me hate him more nor does it make anyone else hate him more, it's just par for the course. But it does make his base LIKE him more. That's the problem, and why it's a non story. Unless Stormy Daniels comes out and says "the non disclosure was there to hide the fact that he dresses up in a diaper during sex" or "he gave me warts" or "he lasted only 30 seconds", THEN you have something that would embarrass him.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:42 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I hate the guy. This doesn't make me hate him more nor does it make anyone else hate him more, it's just par for the course. But it does make his base LIKE him more. That's the problem, and why it's a non story. Unless Stormy Daniels comes out and says "the non disclosure was there to hide the fact that he dresses up in a diaper during sex" or "he gave me warts" or "he lasted only 30 seconds", THEN you have something that would embarrass him.
I'd be genuinely surprised to discover that this makes his base like him more.

I expect that -- much like Yablo -- the majority of his base just responds to this story with a shrug -- followed by: "We didn't vote for him to be a good husband, we voted for him to be a good President".

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:15 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:I hate the guy. This doesn't make me hate him more nor does it make anyone else hate him more, it's just par for the course. But it does make his base LIKE him more. That's the problem, and why it's a non story. Unless Stormy Daniels comes out and says "the non disclosure was there to hide the fact that he dresses up in a diaper during sex" or "he gave me warts" or "he lasted only 30 seconds", THEN you have something that would embarrass him.
I'd be genuinely surprised to discover that this makes his base like him more.

I expect that -- much like Yablo -- the majority of his base just responds to this story with a shrug -- followed by: "We didn't vote for him to be a good husband, we voted for him to be a good President".

His voting bloc has different parts. Try not to generalize them. They all react on a spectrum. His hardcore bro guys do like the pornstar/don't care, but there are a lot of reluctant trumpers who don't care for his vile behavior. Given how small the margins of elections are, cutting into parts of his base does matter.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:21 pm UTC

"We don't care who or what he fucks. We just want our coal jobs back." Porn stars, the EPA, the rest of the economy, the healthcare system, education for the next seven generations, Korea's status as a place not too radioactive to inhabit, entire native tribes, 14-year-olds, choirboys, whatever. They just want their coal jobs back.

Substitute whatever else you have to for "coal jobs" to make it applicable in other areas where the minority who supported him were clearly in the majority. You live in a country where the election can be won by the people who don't care whether a candidate raped a bunch of under-age girls or not as long as he's not a Democrat.

I live in a country where Peter Mandelson resigned in disgrace five times and got a more senior position shortly afterwards each time and Boris Johnson is now an authority figure.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:16 pm UTC

sardia wrote:His voting bloc has different parts. Try not to generalize them. They all react on a spectrum. His hardcore bro guys do like the pornstar/don't care, but there are a lot of reluctant trumpers who don't care for his vile behavior. Given how small the margins of elections are, cutting into parts of his base does matter.
I mean, if by "don't generalize" you mean "don't presume they're terrible" -- then yeah, that's what I'm doing.

I assume the majority of his base is either indifferent or disapproving of this; in neither case is it significant enough for them to stop being his base. If it was, they would have stopped supporting him a long time ago.

If a significant portion of his base actually thinks this makes him even *better*, well -- that portion of his base sounds pretty terrible.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:53 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:If a significant portion of his base actually thinks this makes him even *better*, well -- that portion of his base sounds pretty terrible.


People in general are terrible. That's why in the last election, it ended up being a choice between the most vile creature that has ever slithered into the Republican nomination, and the woman who couldn't even beat that. If people were good, there'd be a Sanders in every election, not necessarily winning the election, but there to actually give people a choice and ensuring that the parties at least nominate people of some bare minimum of quality.

Personally, I know my family hates me for saying this, but I hope it's Warren in 2020. Please, Democrats, don't fuck it up with The Clintoning 3; VOTE HOW YOU ARE TOLD OR I WILL PERSONALLY EAT YOUR PETS IN FRONT OF YOU.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:55 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:
Yablo wrote:I may be old-fashioned in my belief that adultery is wrong, but I think it's just as wrong to pretend presidents aren't people.

Are you saying the Monica Lewinsky scandal wasn't a big deal either? I don't think many democrats would be as lenient towards Bill as you.

Oh, no. Not at all. The Monica Lewinsky scandal was definitely a big deal. It was just an example of a president doing worse than Stormy Daniels, where Marilyn Monroe was an example of a president doing better.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:05 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:Oh, no. Not at all. The Monica Lewinsky scandal was definitely a big deal. It was just an example of a president doing worse than Stormy Daniels, where Marilyn Monroe was an example of a president doing better.
By "doing worse", I presume you're talking about determining which president "did better" by comparing the subjective attractiveness of the women they cheated on their spouses with.

Ie, you're talking about these women like they're grades of steak, or their rating on "HotOrNot.com".

Ie, you're a fucking tool.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:39 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Yablo wrote:Oh, no. Not at all. The Monica Lewinsky scandal was definitely a big deal. It was just an example of a president doing worse than Stormy Daniels, where Marilyn Monroe was an example of a president doing better.
By "doing worse", I presume you're talking about determining which president "did better" by comparing the subjective attractiveness of the women they cheated on their spouses with.

Ie, you're talking about these women like they're grades of steak, or their rating on "HotOrNot.com".

Ie, you're a fucking tool.

Don't you realise? He left it deliberately vague so he could act offended when you take it the way he meant it.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:42 am UTC

No, I got the impression that he meant that Lewinsky wasn't particularly attractive, rather than sleeping with her was somehow worse than Trump sleeping with the porn star. As for the morality of it, I think sleeping with the porn star is marginally better than with the naive intern, but it also shows that Clinton cares more about the person as a person while Trump views women as masturbatory aides.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:54 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:No, I got the impression that he meant that Lewinsky wasn't particularly attractive

Yes, that's why he's a jackass.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:33 am UTC

Thesh wrote:Yes, that's why he's a jackass.
I mean, in a weird way, I'm actually kind of glad: I no longer have to struggle with the possibility that he might just be a nice, otherwise pleasant person with whom I deeply disagree.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby orthogon » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:44 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Stormy Daniels?

I love the way she actually used her porn-star name as her porn-star name. What do we reckon her first pet was?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:53 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Stormy Daniels?

I love the way she actually used her porn-star name as her porn-star name. What do we reckon her first pet was?

A seabird. Or a general.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:54 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:No, I got the impression that he meant that Lewinsky wasn't particularly attractive, rather than sleeping with her was somehow worse than Trump sleeping with the porn star.


Lewinsky was worse because she was taken advantage of by someone who was effectively her boss.

As for the morality of it, I think sleeping with the porn star is marginally better than with the naive intern, but it also shows that Clinton cares more about the person as a person while Trump views women as masturbatory aides.


How does taking advantage of a naive intern indicate caring more about people?

They're both creeps who cheated on their wives; but between the two of them, if we're only using these specific examples, Trump at least fooled around with someone who didn't actually work for him.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby speising » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:24 pm UTC

cphite wrote:someone who didn't actually work for him.

But under him.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:02 pm UTC

Bill could've opened up People Magazine to "1996's top 100 sexiest people", and used it as a checklist. Lewinsky wasn't ugly, far from it, but she was "girl next cube over", not a supermodel. That Bill had an affair with her, at least 9 times rather than just hit and run, showed he sort of cared about her specifically. Maybe.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:11 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:Yes, today's newspaper described it as "one of the worst school shootings in the US on Wednesday."


... and we made it all the way to Monday before I read about him passing crass in the confessional on this one:
Trump says FBI missed signs on Florida shooting due to Russia probe, draws criticism

President Donald Trump attacked the FBI and lawmakers probing suspected Russian meddling in the 2016 U.S presidential election, drawing sharp criticism for saying an excessive focus on Russia led investigators to miss signs that could have prevented a deadly school shooting in Florida.
Trump: FBI 'spending too much time' on Russia inquiry and missed Florida shooter signs

Donald Trump faced criticism on Sunday for his attack on the FBI for missing the “many signals” about the Florida school shooter, saying the agency was spending “too much time” trying to prove Russian collusion.
Trump tweet angers survivors of Parkland shooting

Students who survived the Parkland, Florida, shooting laid into President Donald Trump after he linked the FBI's failure to follow up on a report about the school shooter and the resources expended on the Russia investigation.
On Saturday, Trump tweeted, "Very sad that the FBI missed all of the many signals sent out by the Florida school shooter. This is not acceptable. They are spending too much time trying to prove Russian collusion with the Trump campaign - there is no collusion. Get back to the basics and make us all proud!"

"17 of my classmates are gone. That's 17 futures, 17 children, and 17 friends stolen. But you're right, it always has to be about you. How silly of me to forget. #neveragain"
"17 innocent people were brutally murdered at my school, a place where they should have felt safe. Their lives were gone in an instant. You are the President of the United States and you have the audacity to put this on Russia as an excuse. I guess I should expect that from you."
"...my friends were brutally murdered and you have the nerve to make this about Russia. I can not believe this"
"Oh my god. 17 OF MY CLASSMATES AND FRIENDS ARE GONE AND YOU HAVE THE AUDACITY TO MAKE THIS ABOUT RUSSIA???!! HAVE A DAMN HEART. You can keep all of your fake and meaningless 'thoughts and prayers'."


I wonder how much of an effect this sort of thing has on future voters' respect for the office of potUS.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:46 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Bill could've opened up People Magazine to "1996's top 100 sexiest people", and used it as a checklist. Lewinsky wasn't ugly, far from it, but she was "girl next cube over", not a supermodel. That Bill had an affair with her, at least 9 times rather than just hit and run, showed he sort of cared about her specifically. Maybe.
It's deeply inappropriate to speculate on the nature of a relationship based on how its occupants physically 'look'. Particularly in the case of women -- who are often reduced to scalar values meant to represent how 'attractive' they are (followed by comparing these scalar values to their partners).

This is fairly close to what Yablo did; the primary difference is that you're not describing it in terms of how Clinton could have done 'better' or 'worse'. But that sentiment is still there -- even if you're not making it explicit. It's reflective of how we instinctively reduce others to sexual achievements rather than human beings we form actual relationships with. It's gross, toxic, and partly responsible for a society that glorifies sexual gratification and disposability over things like trust, love, or intimacy.

What I'm saying is: Don't do that.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:53 pm UTC

Maybe it's just me, but I've been reading people as describing things from the point of view of the men in question, not their own point of view. E.g. the kind of guy having an affair is going to be thinking about women in that way; not that the posters talking about the guys having affairs think of women that way.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:00 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Maybe it's just me, but I've been reading people as describing things from the point of view of the men in question, not their own point of view. E.g. the kind of guy having an affair is going to be thinking about women in that way; not that the posters talking about the guys having affairs think of women that way.
That's an extremely, absurdly charitable view. I understand if you read it that way, but I can say with fair certainty that neither posters intended it to be taken that way.

If they did, then they really need some basic lessons on how the English language works.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:15 pm UTC

No, I'm definitely trying to see how they think. It's relevant to who these people are at their core, and assuming we are all adults here, relevant is not inappropriate.

As for yablo, he's coming across more as the typical bro or other immature teenager, where it's all about the president scoring with as many hot women as possible, which completely ignores human sexuality and attraction.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:20 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:Maybe it's just me, but I've been reading people as describing things from the point of view of the men in question, not their own point of view. E.g. the kind of guy having an affair is going to be thinking about women in that way; not that the posters talking about the guys having affairs think of women that way.
That's an extremely, absurdly charitable view. I understand if you read it that way, but I can say with fair certainty that neither posters intended it to be taken that way.

If they did, then they really need some basic lessons on how the English language works.

For what it's worth I read CU's post that way (not Yablo's though). I think CU is saying Trump was motivated by Daniel's "status" as a pornstar, which no doubt earned him bragging rights among his friends. Clinton doesn't seem to have that motivation, so there's more chance he genuinely cared for Lewinsky, backed up by the fact he repeatedly met up with her when being president, he probably had a lot of opportunity to sleep with whomever he desired.

cphite
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Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:21 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Maybe it's just me, but I've been reading people as describing things from the point of view of the men in question, not their own point of view. E.g. the kind of guy having an affair is going to be thinking about women in that way; not that the posters talking about the guys having affairs think of women that way.


Right. From the perspective of guys who screw around on their wives - or who condone or even celebrate such behavior - Stormy Daniels is clearly a better catch than Monica Lewinsky. And it's not even necessarily limited to her looks... the two of them could look exactly the same, and the fact would remain that one of them is a world-famous porn star and the other is an intern.


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