Trump presidency

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:39 pm UTC

It's okay, the Perverted, Orange, Toupee'd, Unfriendly Simian says it's fine:
The Real Risks of Trump’s Steel and Aluminum Tariffs

President Trump announced today that his administration would impose a 25 percent tariff on imported steel and a 10 percent tariff on imported aluminum, on the grounds that other countries’ trade practices endanger American national security by undermining domestic production. Here’s what you need to know.

The most immediate losers are the industries that rely on steel and aluminum as an input and will face higher prices. That includes some of the nation’s biggest industries: the automobile sector; aerospace; heavy equipment; and construction. In short, the chassis of a Ford, the body of a Caterpillar bulldozer, the wings of a Boeing aircraft, and the steel girders inside a New York skyscraper are all about to get more expensive.

After the president’s announcement, Wall Street quickly reflected this divide: Shares of U.S. Steel and Century Aluminum were each up about 7 percent shortly afterward, while shares of Ford, Caterpillar and Boeing were each down about 3 percent.

The risk comes from the potential ripple effects.

Affected countries may well retaliate by ordering tariffs on American goods, and they could carefully target goods to cause economic or political pain. American exporters — whether they sell passenger airplanes or soybeans — should be nervous about the next shoe to fall. There are few winners in an all-out trade war like one that enveloped the world economy in the 1930s.
Trade war? 1930s? Huh.
Nope, never heard of it. That wasn't what I was thinking of. There was something, though, something about trade and ...
How U.S. Economic Warfare Provoked Japan’s Attack on Pearl Harbor

In the late nineteenth century, Japan’s economy began to grow and to industrialize rapidly. Because Japan has few natural resources, many of the burgeoning industries had to rely on imported raw materials, such as coal, iron ore or steel scrap, tin, copper, bauxite, rubber, and petroleum. Without access to such imports, many of which came from the United States or from European colonies in southeast Asia, Japan’s industrial economy would have ground to a halt. By engaging in international trade, however, the Japanese had built a moderately advanced industrial economy by 1941.

At the same time, they also built a military-industrial complex to support an increasingly powerful army and navy. These armed forces allowed Japan to project its power into various places in the Pacific and east Asia, including Korea and northern China, much as the United States used its growing industrial might to equip armed forces that projected U.S. power into the Caribbean and Latin America, and even as far away as the Philippine Islands.

When Franklin D. Roosevelt became president in 1933, the U.S. government fell under the control of a man who disliked the Japanese and harbored a romantic affection for the Chinese because, some writers have speculated, Roosevelt’s ancestors had made money in the China trade.

In June 1940, Henry L. Stimson, who had been secretary of war under Taft and secretary of state under Hoover, became secretary of war again. Stimson was a lion of the Anglophile, northeastern upper crust and no friend of the Japanese. In support of the so-called Open Door Policy for China, Stimson favored the use of economic sanctions to obstruct Japan’s advance in Asia. Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau and Interior Secretary Harold Ickes vigorously endorsed this policy. Roosevelt hoped that such sanctions would goad the Japanese into making a rash mistake by launching a war against the United States, which would bring in Germany because Japan and Germany were allied.

Accordingly, the Roosevelt administration, while curtly dismissing Japanese diplomatic overtures to harmonize relations, imposed a series of increasingly stringent economic sanctions on Japan. In 1939 the United States terminated the 1911 commercial treaty with Japan. “On July 2, 1940, Roosevelt signed the Export Control Act, authorizing the President to license or prohibit the export of essential defense materials.” Under this authority, “[o]n July 31, exports of aviation motor fuels and lubricants and No. 1 heavy melting iron and steel scrap were restricted.” Next, in a move aimed at Japan, Roosevelt slapped an embargo, effective October 16, “on all exports of scrap iron and steel to destinations other than Britain and the nations of the Western Hemisphere.” Finally, on July 26, 1941, Roosevelt “froze Japanese assets in the United States, thus bringing commercial relations between the nations to an effective end. One week later Roosevelt embargoed the export of such grades of oil as still were in commercial flow to Japan.”
Eh, long article. Can't be bothered reading it all. Oh, well, Japan's doing fine now, so it probably didn't come to anything, right?

Whoever wrote it didn't half gloss over some stuff with that "These armed forces allowed Japan to project its power into various places in the Pacific and east Asia, including Korea and northern China," line, eh? The whole thing about WW2 starting in 1937 tends to get omitted a lot around here.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:43 pm UTC

US President Donald Trump has stepped up his war of words over trade tariffs, threatening to "apply a tax" on imports of cars from the European Union.

The trade wrangle began on Thursday when Mr Trump vowed to impose hefty tariffs on steel and aluminium imports. That brought a stiff response from trading partners and criticism from the IMF and WTO. EU trade chiefs have reportedly been considering slapping 25% tariffs on around $3.5bn (£2.5bn) of imports from the US, following Mr Trump's proposal of a 25% tariff on imported steel and 10% on aluminium.

In a tweet on Saturday, the president said: "If the EU wants to further increase their already massive tariffs and barriers on US companies doing business there, we will simply apply a Tax on their Cars which freely pour into the US. They make it impossible for our cars (and more) to sell there. Big trade imbalance!"

Germany is responsible for just over half of the EU's car exports, so new US tariffs would hurt the car industry there. But German carmakers also build hundreds of thousands of cars in the US every year - providing many US jobs that German officials say Mr Trump overlooks.

Senator Orrin Hatch [R] said: "I'm very surprised, he's had very bad advice from somebody down there. The people who are going to have to pay these tariffs are going to be the American citizens."

Senator Ben Sasse [R] said: "Kooky 18th Century protectionism will jack up prices on American families - and will prompt retaliation."

And industry bodies like the US Motor and Equipment Manufacturers Association have expressed deep concern, saying the benefits from the recent cuts in corporation tax "could all be for naught".

Mr Trump tweeted on Friday that the US was "losing billions of dollars" and would find a trade war "easy to win".

The president is using a clause in international trade rules which allows for tariffs for national security reasons.

But his move has not come totally out of the blue. The commerce department recommended tariffs in February after conducting a review under rarely invoked national security regulations contained in a 1962 trade law. Mr Trump had already announced tariffs on solar panels and washing machines in January.

The IMF said others could follow the US leader's precedent by claiming tough trade restrictions were needed to defend national security.

World Trade Organization Director General Roberto Azevedo said: "A trade war is in no-one's interests."

But Mr Trump tweeted, "Trade wars are good."

On the one hand, I presume America has a horrible trade deficit with China like every other Western country, but, unlike most other Western countries, has massive reserves of raw materials and a decent manufacturing base that means it actually could be self-sufficient. So theoretically it could survive a severe trade war - or even thrive? OTOH, such a massive reorganisation of the economy would itself produce vast numbers of losers, and investors are not going to make long term capital investments in the US if there's any chance any trade war would be reversed.

I do think the West needs to face up to its massive trade deficits though. I don't see any end-game except for each region (EU, US etc.) being self-sufficient. Or am I wrong?

link

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Isaac Hill » Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:06 am UTC

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker wrote:We will put tariffs on Harley-Davidson, on bourbon and on blue jeans - Levis.
link

Harley Davidson is based in Wisconsin, home of Speaker of the House Paul Ryan.
Burboun maker Jim Beam is based in Kentucky, home of Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell.
Levi's is based in San Francisco, home of House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi.

That's most of the congressional leadership being put on notice. I don't know why Chuck Schumer's off the hook. Maybe the only industry big enough to hit NY with is finance, and htting that would do too much damage to the global economy? Or, it just can't be hit with tariffs.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Prefanity » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:26 am UTC

Isaac Hill wrote:
European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker wrote:Levis.


Which are made in Mexico and elsewhere from denim that isn't milled in America either (thanks to the Cone Mills White Oak Plant closure). And I know the supply chains don't impact the results of this decision; I just wanted an excuse to post this image regarding the mill closure.

Spoiler:
Image

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby idonno » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:12 pm UTC

Prefanity wrote: And I know the supply chains don't impact the results of this decision;


They might if corporate structures can be rebuilt to work around the tariff. I am no expert on how tariffs work but if the clothing never enters the U. S. and is ostensibly manufactured and distributed by a non U. S. company, I don't think they would get hit by the tariffs. If their corporate accountants and lawyers can't structure things so that those two facts are true while Levi's still gets the bulk of the revenue, they should probably be replaced.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby bantler » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:20 pm UTC

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker wrote:We will put tariffs on Harley-Davidson, on bourbon and on blue jeans - Levis.


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Re: Trump presidency

Postby emceng » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:32 pm UTC

I'd like to see an unbiased list of Trump admin people along with the laws and ethical standards they have broken(or suspected of breaking). In just the past week you've got Carson at HHS with his $31k dining set, and Conway being accused of violating the Hatch act. That's in the last seven days our of a 14 month presidency.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dark567 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:34 pm UTC

http://theweek.com/speedreads/759197/ph ... -president

I just... This is the guy doing our Diplomacy?!? Legitimately 90% of the US would be doing a better job(even the bozos who voted for this dunce).
I apologize, 90% of the time I write on the Fora I am intoxicated.


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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:15 pm UTC

Dark567 wrote:I just... This is the guy doing our Diplomacy?!?

What do you mean? But he does it in such a loving way...

BBC wrote:"The European Union has been particularly tough on the United States," Mr Trump said at Tuesday's joint press conference with the Swedish prime minister. "They make it almost impossible for us to do business with them," Mr Trump complained.

Mr Trump said if the EU retaliated [to the increased tariffs on aluminium and steel], the US would impose a 25% tax on European cars.

But the US president also said America would levy tariffs in a "loving, loving way".

"They'll like us better and they'll respect us more," he said about US trade partners who object to the plan.


Frankly I'm surprised how much power the president seems to wield in this matter, to be able to go ahead even over his own party's misgivings:

Members of Mr Trump's Republican party have been voicing disquiet at his proposal.

Just before Mr Trump spoke, Senate leader Mitch McConnell said: "There is a lot of concern among Republican senators that this could sort of metastasise into sort of a larger trade war."

Earlier on Tuesday, Speaker of the House Paul Ryan said the tariffs were too broad. He urged Mr Trump "to be more surgical" when selecting which countries to target "so we do not have unintended consequences".

Obama ended up being forced to act through presidential decrees due to opposition intransigence; Trump seems to be acting despite opposition from all sides. Still, I suppose that's what he was elected to do, right? To give the political elite on both sides a poke in the eye?

link

And now Trump's top economic adviser is resigning:

US President Donald Trump's top economic adviser Gary Cohn is resigning, the White House has said. It is the latest in a series of high-profile departures from President Trump's team.

In a statement released by the White House, Mr Cohn said it had been "an honour to serve my country".

There has been speculation that Mr Cohn, a supporter of free trade, was angered by Mr Trump's plans to impose tariffs on aluminium and steel imports.


link

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:25 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Frankly I'm surprised how much power the president seems to wield in this matter, to be able to go ahead even over his own party's misgivings:
That's the way it's supposed to be. It's why it's important to select well. In theory at least, none of the elected members of the government are supposed to represent the party. They are supposed to represent the people. The party is just the horse they ride in order to get in.

The opposition an elected official (like the president) comes from the members of congress, who are also not supposed to represent the party. They do however represent their own ideologies, and the party has a lot of influence on that because it's the horse they ride.

elasto wrote:Obama ended up being forced to act through presidential decrees due to opposition intransigence; Trump seems to be acting despite opposition from all sides.
The Republicans are getting to do what they want under Trump, so they cut him slack. They did not get to do what they wanted under Obama, and Obama got no slack.

And now Trump's top economic adviser is resigning:
Trump is right - he's the only one that matters. Because he'll be the only one that's left.

Except for Kellyanne Conway. Think she'll run for president next? If there's an election?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:42 pm UTC

ucim wrote:That's the way it's supposed to be. It's why it's important to select well. In theory at least, none of the elected members of the government are supposed to represent the party. They are supposed to represent the people.

Up until Obama's second term, I was under the misapprehension that the US president was more of a figurehead, especially when compared to the Prime Minister in the UK (despite the theory there that he/she is merely 'first amongst equals'...). I thought the president mainly had the power to veto bills and engage in wars...

Obama showed me that the president actually has a a whole swathe of powers through the use of executive orders which appear to totally bypass the legislature.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:31 am UTC

elasto wrote:Obama showed me that the president actually has a a whole swathe of powers through the use of executive orders which appear to totally bypass the legislature.
Yeah, well executive orders are tricky. The next executive can promulgate an executive order rescinding the previous one's, and by doing so, kill it permanently. (Congress would be needed to override the override, as it were). It's a bit more complex than that, but that's a big trap.

And again, it needs to be that way; if not, executive orders could constitute a dictatorship, and if rescinding had no consequences, policy could flipflop much more with each administration.

Choose wisely. The nukes aren't the only thing in the white house!

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:47 am UTC

emceng wrote:I'd like to see an unbiased list of Trump admin people along with the laws and ethical standards they have broken(or suspected of breaking).

I'd like to see that list alongside a similar list of Obama admin people.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:54 am UTC

I'd like to see an unbiased list. Even tau vs pi (or pi vs tau) is getting heated. :)

Actually, the thing about such a list is that each suspected ethics violation has its own backdrop, which is important in considering just how serious it may be. Laws and sausages...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:12 am UTC

elasto wrote:In the UK two chains have gone under in the last day or so and the reasons are common sense in hindsight. Basically they couldn't compete on price and were a horrible experience so, well, why shouldn't they fail?

Re. Toys R Us:
"For a magical place, it's not very magical," says Ms Hardcastle. "If you can't compete on price, you can at least compete on theatre. If I walk into the Lego store in Meadowhall in Sheffield, the first thing I look for is not the products piled up, but the huge benches of Lego to play with. And the team members are there waiting to build with me. That's very exciting for a child."

"The general feel isn't one of fun, it's one of tiredness," says Mr Dresser. "I stumbled on one in York - it was quite sad. The first sign you see is that they reserve the right to check your bags as you leave. That's a horrendous message in a toy shop. As a customer, you don't really feel valued. That shouldn't be what a toy shop is. It should be a place of joy."



Toys R Us is pretty much doing the same thing in the US, yeah. Closing stores like mad. As a kid, I remember them being fun, but...yeah, I wouldn't go to one now, even to get a present for a kid. Ultimately, the toy market is really full in some ways. I can get toys at walmart, or amazon, or in a bookstore(wherever they still exist), or in a small local game store...the reasons to specifically go to Toys R Us are...limited. I can't actually think of any. They may have certain exclusives(Nerf is notorious for this), but outside of that, eh. They are not providing a compelling advantage over the other options. I don't hate them for that, but that's kinda life.

And, going to my earlier point about good-riddance to self-serving middle-men. Re. Maplin:
My one experience with Maplin - I wanted a simple wi-fi dongle which cost a tenner. The guy there took one look at me, assumed I was some middle-aged technodolt and spent about 20 minutes patronisingly telling me I'd made the wrong choice and that I really really needed one that cost about £40. I bought the dongle from Argos instead and never went back to Maplin.


Happens. Nobody likes to be patronized, and unfortunately, retail work involves sometimes selling to idiots, and sometimes hiring people on the lower end of skills. How much varies a great deal from store to store, but yeah, some resellers are a bit awful about the actual sales experience.

I personally think that a lot of it is old-timey hard sales tactics being pulled out in the misguided belief that they'll work today. But...hard sales nowadays are a great way to ensure a person hates you in particular, and will go out of his or her way to not run into you in the future. The modern customer prefers to be left alone much of the time, but to have staff available if needed. Definitely not overly buddy buddy, or hard selling, or fake seeming. Same guy asking if he can help you three times is already too much.

pogrmman wrote:On an unrelated note, I’m kind of shocked that nobody has posted about this yet. Trump has proposed a 25% tariff on steel and 10% tariff on aluminium. I’m not all that surprised given his anti-free trade stance, but seriously, that seems excessive. When I heard he wanted to do tariffs on metal imports, I wouldn’t have guessed that they’d be anywhere that high...

Also, it turns out that Canada is our biggest partner in terms of steel imports, so it’d mess with them too. Supposedly, world leaders say that this could spark a trade war...


Probably going to be interesting, but those numbers are not unthinkable in terms of previous tariff levels, which have sometimes been higher. It'll likely be a big boon to the US steel producing areas, but of course, also could be costly to other industries, and trade wars can have interesting consequences. Calculating what all might change as a result of the latter is...complicated.

Im not sure this is the best solution for trade deficits, but...running a large trade deficit indefinitely is something of a problem. The US isn't actually in that precarious a position as a result, but this generally seems like straightforward protectionism. How good/bad it is mostly depends on who reacts to it, and how strongly. Probably plays decently well in mining country from a political standpoint, though.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby emceng » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:48 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:
emceng wrote:I'd like to see an unbiased list of Trump admin people along with the laws and ethical standards they have broken(or suspected of breaking).

I'd like to see that list alongside a similar list of Obama admin people.


Sigh. Have we had the argument about whataboutism? Frankly, Obama doesn't matter any more. We're talking about criminal wrong doing with the current most powerful man on the damned planet. Why is the right obsessed with Obama? He is not causing your fucking problems. Obama isn't stealing your jobs, or giving out abortions, or planning to take your guns away. He isn't fucking president any more. Why why why are you still harping on him? Trump is a god damned crook, and Republicans seem to not give a damn. They make excuses, bury their heads in the sand, or point fingers in an attempt to muddy the waters. When did party become more important that country? The GOP has crafted a message saying that their "truth" is the only real one. Anything you hear disagreeing with your point of view is fake news. They're not just ignorant, but they're proudly, aggressively ignorant.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:58 pm UTC

emceng wrote:They're not just ignorant, but they're proudly, aggressively ignorant.


Wonderfully explains every conversation I've had with a Forever-Trumper.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:26 pm UTC

emceng wrote:Sigh. Have we had the argument about whataboutism?
Well... actually whataboutism is not all-bad. It certainly is bad when it's used to change the subject, but it is appropriate when it's used to provide context for rather than replace the topic at hand.

We tolerate shady behavior in our politicians. We always have. It's the price of politics. An honest politician is unlikely to ever make it high enough in politics to matter. Now, the aim may be to have honest politicians, but there aren't any.
Spoiler:
And it might not even be a good aim - after all, part of what we pay a politician to do is to lie to the enemy. They can't do that in a free country without lying to us too. This is why character matters - we need to know that they are lying appropriately.
The question is how much dishonesty we are willing to tolerate. Every side points to the other side as being criminal. But this is hypocritical if that side is equally criminal. So, it is a sensible question to ask, not for a list of {political enemy}'s criminal acts, but for a comparison between {my candidate}'s criminal acts and {political enemy}'s criminal acts.

Now, it's true that seven counts of jaywalking does not outweigh one count of armed robbery, but you need the {good guy}'s list in order to know that that's what it's up against.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby commodorejohn » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:27 pm UTC

Well, since trying to revive Hillary as the all-purpose bogey(wo)man of the fringe right didn't go anywhere the last half-dozen times they tried it, they might as well try digging up another old bogeyman.

I mean, they have to come up with some way to distract themselves from the fact that we've reached a point where former campaign personnel are just saying outright that Trump knew about and assented to his idiot son's attempts to get in bed with the Russians, or the news that the special counsel is looking into an agreement he himself had with them prior to running, or the allegations that the Russians influenced his pick for secretary of state, who has been systematically dismantling the American diplomatic engine, or... Hell, we're at the point where a porn star getting paid hush money to cover up an affair with the president by his lawyer, who then went and violated the exact NDA she was paid to abide by so it's now likely null and void is only significant news because smart money says that she was probably actually paid with campaign funds.

So much winning!
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:37 pm UTC

emceng wrote:Sigh. Have we had the argument about whataboutism? Frankly, Obama doesn't matter any more.

I'd be happy not to compare Trump to Obama. When someone complains about something Trump has done, I'd be happy not to mention how Obama did something similar, did the exact same, or did something worse. The thing is, When Obama did matter, every time I would make a comment about something he did, someone else (not you, granted) would counter with how Bush did something worse. And I have a suspicion that when we have our next Democrat president, the "Well, Trump did something worse" double-standard will pop up on the Democrat side.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby arbiteroftruth » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:45 pm UTC

commodorejohn wrote:Well, since trying to revive Hillary as the all-purpose bogey(wo)man of the fringe right didn't go anywhere the last half-dozen times they tried it [...]


???

The last time they tried it, it got them to the white house.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:47 pm UTC

ucim wrote:Every side points to the other side as being criminal. But this is hypocritical if that side is equally criminal. So, it is a sensible question to ask, not for a list of {political enemy}'s criminal acts, but for a comparison between {my candidate}'s criminal acts and {political enemy}'s criminal acts.

Not really. It's relevant during a campaign when you actually need to choose between two people, but once you know the winner the only thing that matters is how criminal he/she is.

If Hillary subsequently gets convicted of murder it matters not one jot to how lightly or gravely Trump's crimes should be treated.

Yablo wrote:I'd be happy not to compare Trump to Obama. When someone complains about something Trump has done, I'd be happy not to mention how Obama did something similar, did the exact same, or did something worse. The thing is, When Obama did matter, every time I would make a comment about something he did, someone else (not you, granted) would counter with how Bush did something worse. And I have a suspicion that when we have our next Democrat president, the "Well, Trump did something worse" double-standard will pop up on the Democrat side.

It's true that both sides have people who fall for this logical fallacy, but, if you recognise it for what it is, 'if you can't beat them, join them' only makes things worse.

Why not join those of us on both the D and R sides who are happy to judge each person on their merits? Yes, there are precious few of us, but people walking away is only going to contribute to ever more polarisation, which is not a good thing.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:49 pm UTC

arbiteroftruth wrote:
commodorejohn wrote:Well, since trying to revive Hillary as the all-purpose bogey(wo)man of the fringe right didn't go anywhere the last half-dozen times they tried it [...]


???

The last time they tried it, it got them to the white house.

He's talking about all the times since then, when the right defends Trump with "but but Hillary".

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bantler
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby bantler » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:20 pm UTC

When did party become more important that country?


The first modern step was John McCain's choice of Sarah Palin for his Vice Presidential running mate.

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ucim
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:32 pm UTC

elasto wrote:...but once you know the winner the only thing that matters is how criminal he/she is.
...and criminality is not a binary value. You say it yourself: how criminal they are. And when I give you the answer ("47 criminal units"), how are you to decide how to react? You need to know whether "47 criminal units" is like jaywalking, smoking pot, armed robbery, or mass murder, and you also have to know what your personal tolerance level is.

You tolerated the predecessor. How many criminal units did he rate? If he rated 67 criminal units, then maybe getting upset at the present one's 47 criminal units is a bit overblown. But if the predecessor came in at 3 criminal units, then complaining about 47 isn't out of place.

So... what is your personal tolerance level?

elasto wrote:If Hillary subsequently gets convicted...
Hillary wasn't the predecessor.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:46 pm UTC

I wouldn't use criminal convictions as anything other than a really high bar with regards to politicians. They have so many ways to delay, re-characterize and avoid punishment. For example, Roy Moore is not in jail. Trump's charitable foundation in any other circumstances, would have everyone involved jailed.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:29 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Why not join those of us on both the D and R sides who are happy to judge each person on their merits? Yes, there are precious few of us, but people walking away is only going to contribute to ever more polarisation, which is not a good thing.

Fair enough. That's a sales pitch I could go for.
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bantler
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby bantler » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:52 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Why not join those of us on both the D and R sides who are happy to judge each person on their merits? Yes, there are precious few of us, but people walking away is only going to contribute to ever more polarisation, which is not a good thing.


What if one side has no merits?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:04 pm UTC

sardia wrote:I wouldn't use criminal convictions as anything other than a really high bar with regards to politicians.
Well, criminality is what they are accused of. But in any case, whatever is used as a measure, it needs to be used for both sides, and it's also a measure of what each of us tolerates. Saying {your politician} is bad because xe blocks legislation, but it's ok when {my politician} does is doubletalk. And yes, it depends what legislation is being blocked. All of this provides the context for the accusation, and context is important, lest it merely be ad hominum.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby bantler » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:14 pm UTC

ucim wrote: Saying {your politician} is bad because he blocks legislation, but it's ok when {my politician} does is doubletalk. And yes, it depends what legislation is being blocked. All of this provides the context for the accusation, and context is important, lest it merely be ad hominum.

Jose


Like Babbitt, I get my opinions from editorials produced by my party's media. Legislation can be confusing when you don't know which side your tribe is voting. The recent government-shutdown for example was difficult to parse until I watched the news to see how I felt about it.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:39 pm UTC

bantler wrote:Like Babbitt, I get my opinions from editorials produced by my party's media. Legislation can be confusing when you don't know which side your tribe is voting. The recent government-shutdown for example was difficult to parse until I watched the news to see how I felt about it.

Between this and the social darwinism in the other thread I'm gonna need a Poe's Law check on you.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby idonno » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:24 am UTC

Yablo wrote:
emceng wrote:Sigh. Have we had the argument about whataboutism? Frankly, Obama doesn't matter any more.

I'd be happy not to compare Trump to Obama. When someone complains about something Trump has done, I'd be happy not to mention how Obama did something similar, did the exact same, or did something worse. The thing is, When Obama did matter, every time I would make a comment about something he did, someone else (not you, granted) would counter with how Bush did something worse. And I have a suspicion that when we have our next Democrat president, the "Well, Trump did something worse" double-standard will pop up on the Democrat side.

In my experience when someone tries the but the other side's representative did it, the most disarming response is to agree. They are prepared to dismiss your point of view as hypocritical but if the comparison is fair and you admit it, suddenly they are the one who is being hypocritical if they don't agree that their side's representative is doing something wrong.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:35 am UTC

idonno wrote:In my experience when someone tries the but the other side's representative did it, the most disarming response is to agree. They are prepared to dismiss your point of view as hypocritical but if the comparison is fair and you admit it, suddenly they are the one who is being hypocritical if they don't agree that their side's representative is doing something wrong.


It's quite fair, yeah. Admitting to the shortcomings of "your" side can at least get one credit for honesty. It's totally fair to admit that say, both Clinton and Trump had flaws. We're just less concerned about Clinton at present, because she didn't win, and now is politically a lot less relevant than Trump. Thus why we have a thread about him and not her.

Arguing about who was *worse* is an endless quibble indeed. But even if one feels that Obama had the occasional political faux paux, it's definitely fair to comment when Trump does so as well.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby elasto » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:29 pm UTC

Aha! Trump finally has the answer for the mass-killings!

US President Donald Trump is to meet video games company representatives on Thursday to discuss violent content.

The meeting comes in the wake of last month's shooting at a school in Florida in which 17 people died.

Press secretary Sarah Sanders announced the meeting last week - a complete surprise to gaming industry figures, who at that point had not received any information or invitations.

On several occasions, President Trump has pointed to video game violence as being a problem potentially affecting American youths.

"Video game violence & glorification must be stopped," he wrote on Twitter in December 2012. "It is creating monsters!"


The games industry is trying to weasel its way out of its clear responsibility by citing science and stuff though:

The games industry has routinely and robustly defended itself against claims its products provoke real-life violence.

“Video games are enjoyed around the world and numerous authorities and reputable scientific studies have found no connection between games and real-life violence," the ESA said in a statement.

"Like all Americans, we are deeply concerned about the level of gun violence in the United States. Video games are plainly not the issue: entertainment is distributed and consumed globally, but the US has an exponentially higher level of gun violence than any other nation."

Arm the teachers and take away the children's x-boxes. That should fix things just fine!

Hey, maybe that's how to fix the violence in the Middle East too, what with all those terrorists addicted to GTA and all...

link
Last edited by elasto on Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:32 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Zohar
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:32 pm UTC

Everyone knows Japan is the mass-shooting and gun violence capital of the world.
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bantler
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby bantler » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:33 pm UTC

elasto wrote:Hey, maybe that's how to fix the violence in the Middle East too, what with all those terrorists addicted to GTA and all...


It's unfair that female jihadists aren't allowed to drive stolen cars.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:38 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Everyone knows Japan is the mass-shooting and gun violence capital of the world.

Does it also have an unusally high incidence of men putting on red dungarees and jumping on turtles?

You know what all these mass-shooters have in common? They all wear trainers or sneakers. When have you ever seen a mass shooting in a school carried out by someone wearing thigh-high boots with kitten heels? :roll:
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:48 pm UTC

They all heard Trump is president, too, why not get rid of that?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:37 am UTC

Yeah, blaming games for violence is a really obnoxious tendency. It's nigh universal among teens, not really useful as a predictive factor. Maybe if they all played the same game or something, that'd be creepy, but we have no real interesting trends at all.

Anyone blaming video games is probably misusing statistics.

Trump tends to throw things out there, and just see what works for the popular mind. It's effective, but annoying at times. Hopefully the public doesn't latch onto this.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:14 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Yeah, blaming games for violence is a really obnoxious tendency. It's nigh universal among teens, not really useful as a predictive factor. Maybe if they all played the same game or something, that'd be creepy, but we have no real interesting trends at all.

Anyone blaming video games is probably misusing statistics.

Trump tends to throw things out there, and just see what works for the popular mind. It's effective, but annoying at times. Hopefully the public doesn't latch onto this.

Anyone see the latest Florida gun control law? It's...a mixed bag, though it does show a way to pass gun control.


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