Trump presidency

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9996
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:46 pm UTC

Is this what Democracy looks like?
Spoiler:
F-ing TurtleMan has way too much power.
Merit Garland was a good choice!
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10216
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:35 pm UTC

addams wrote:Is this what Democracy looks like?
Spoiler:
F-ing TurtleMan has way too much power.
Merit Garland was a good choice!


Who is "TurtleMan"? Mitch McConnell?

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6532
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:40 pm UTC

Yes. It's a common nickname for him. https://www.google.com/search?q=mitch+m ... e&ie=UTF-8

User avatar
Yablo
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:57 am UTC
Location: Juneau, Alaska

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:09 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:So, for the benefit of all involved, you'd like evidence that dismissing accusations of sexual assault at parties and calling women liars when they say they were attacked is a good and just course of action in this particular case and that nobody should believe Ford if she makes any further claims about having been attacked or threatened or followed home or surveilled, and also that if anyone to the left of Tom Tancredo and Virgil Goode says someone to the right of wherever they are on the spectrum is attacking someone they're just stirring shit for political reasons and whatever they're saying, like pretty much the whole Police Misbehaviour Thread, can be ignored?

That's not even close to what I was saying. No, for the benefit of all involved, I would hope convincing evidence would emerge to clear him because that would mean Ms. Ford's accusations were unfounded and what she alleges never actually happened. It's much better for Kavanaugh, for Ms. Ford, for the SCOTUS, and for the country if what Ms. Ford says happened didn't.

Diemo wrote:Saying that you hope the truth will emerge is the opposite of deciding that he is already guilty, it is saying that there is not enough evidence to decide that he is guilty or innocent and you hope that more evidence (which could go either way) will emerge to clear up the matter.

That's a fair assessment. It's not how I read it initially, but you're right. The truth is the truth.

Your impression is completely wrong. In general, people currently on the left care about the truth, while people on the right currently don't*. Stop projecting.

*I have plenty of evidence that people on the right intrinsically don't care about the truth - from McConnell in the US to Orban in Hungary to the Brexit vote in Britain, the right has lied and lied and lied, yet still get elected. I have less evidence that people on the left care about the truth - however fake news is a right wing phenomena - there is very little fake news on the left in comparison to the right. So this is weak evidence that the left cares about the truth.

I don't believe my impression is completely wrong, but your point is well-taken.

Tyndmyr wrote:Well, I think we're all mostly in agreement that at this point, Kav needs some allegations to be investigated to be a reasonable nominee. If found innocent, cool. If the republicans want to bet on him being clean vs finding another nominee, well, that's a strategic question. At a minimum, I think they'd be well served by casting about for someone else, but hey. Not my call.

Agreed. Ms. Ford doesn't strike me as particularly credible, and Feinstein's timing is suspect, but a doubt has been cast. I don't think it's fair (or Constitutional) to consider Kavanaugh guilty and force him to prove he's not, but questions do still need to be answered. I didn't particularly care for Kavanaugh's nomination (I thought Amy Coney Barrett was a better candidate), but I suspect Kennedy may have made Kavanaugh's nomination a condition of his stepping down.

I'm more interested in your apparent support of Trump. What makes Trump, in your opinion, the sort of man we need?

Tariffs aside, he's been very good for the economy. Free trade in North America is a good thing, but NAFTA was flawed. Renegotiating trade deals so they strongly favor U.S. interests is something we have needed for a long time.

He may be an arrogant jackass, but in general, his foreign policy moves go a long way toward correcting what I saw as a huge weakness in Obama's administration. Putting American interests ahead of foreign interests is a net positive for us. His speech to the U.N> recently may have been mocked by the delegates, but I thought it was strong. The message was that other nations should do what is in their own best interests first and in the interests of other nations second, and that the U.S. would do the same. I do think leaving the Human Rights Council is a misguided effort to protest, but the message is a good one: We won't be party to passing more anti-Israel resolutions than anti-Iranian, anti-Syrian, and anti-North Korean resolutions combined.

He was also the loudest voice against illegal immigration in the Republican primary debates. I don't think illegal immigration itself is what really upsets me so much as the apparent apathy or even support shown for it by many in both parties.
If you like Call of Cthulhu and modern government conspiracy, check out my Delta Green thread.
Please feel free to ask questions or leave comments.

JudeMorrigan
Posts: 1254
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:26 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby JudeMorrigan » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:11 pm UTC

I feel like the smart move on the Republican's side at this point would be to withdraw Kavanaugh's nomination and try to get Amy Coney Barrett confirmed as quickly as possible. Of course, that would require Trump's ego being able to deal with a strategic "loss".

User avatar
Yablo
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:57 am UTC
Location: Juneau, Alaska

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:29 pm UTC

JudeMorrigan wrote:I feel like the smart move on the Republican's side at this point would be to withdraw Kavanaugh's nomination and try to get Amy Coney Barrett confirmed as quickly as possible. Of course, that would require Trump's ego being able to deal with a strategic "loss".

You might be right, and I would be okay with that. Until he's been proven guilty, I feel bad for Kavanaugh and his family, but Barrett would have been my first choice anyway. Like I said above, though, I suspect Kavanaugh's nomination may have been a condition of Kennedy's retirement. And Trump does have a tendency to double down rather than take the hit.
If you like Call of Cthulhu and modern government conspiracy, check out my Delta Green thread.
Please feel free to ask questions or leave comments.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7165
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:29 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:...but it's not exactly uncommon for false accusations to come out with the others.
Nonsense. Especially when the accusations carry actual, measurable consequences for the people making them -- regardless of whether or not they're "false". Why on earth do you think it took so long for Weinstein's accusers to come forward?

Adults don't make false accusations for attention, especially when that attention is overwhelmingly negative. False accusations happen, yes -- but here's the thing: 9 times out of 10, they're pretty easy to recognize. The people making them will have big, gaping holes in their story. Others won't step forward to corroborate their claims. Others won't make additional accusations themselves (therefore establishing a narrative that demonstrates a pattern of behavior over a person's life).

Remember: An accusation isn't always just an accusation. A lot of times, it's a description of trauma that someone (allegedly) has undergone. What you're promoting here isn't just the idea that a woman might falsify trauma for some undefined gain; it's the idea that other women who see this will use it as an opportunity to add credibility to their false narratives for some undefined gain. And again, they're doing this despite the clear, measurable consequence that accusations (again -- "false" or otherwise) carry.

The idea that false accusations flock together is ridiculous, and deserves to be dismissed with a wave of the hand and a roll of the eyes.

EDIT: It looks like I might have misread what you wrote; if that's the case, my apologies. Presuming you're saying "one or two false accusations can come out with true accusations", that much I agree with. But I don't think false accusations are common in situations like this -- and false accusations certainly don't gather more false accusations. Multiple accusations carry a collective weight and an implication of veracity; innocent people don't just tragically end up with multiple accusers describing multiple incidents that never happened. "Once is chance, two is coincidence, three is a pattern".

Either Kavanaugh is being subjected to a massive conspiracy spanning several decades intended to defame him, or he's the kind of guy who gets drunk and sexually assaults women. And I don't think we should nominate people who commit sexual assault as Supreme Court Justices.

(I also don't think we should elect literal rapists as President -- but hey, here we are.)
Last edited by The Great Hippo on Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:56 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Weeks
Hey Baby, wanna make a fortnight?
Posts: 2004
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:41 am UTC
Location: Ciudad de Panamá, Panamá

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:56 pm UTC

Oh! Oh! I know this one!

...um...

*buzzes in*

What is Occam's Razor?
NieXS wrote:Oh god that smiley ruined it.
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
Mutex wrote:Enjoy the shoe!

User avatar
Zohar
COMMANDER PORN
Posts: 8260
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:45 pm UTC
Location: Denver

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:24 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:Oh! Oh! I know this one!

...um...

*buzzes in*

What is Occam's Razor?

I'm actually not a big fan of Occam's Razor because sometimes reality is complicated. But yeah this case is pretty obvious.
Mighty Jalapeno: "See, Zohar agrees, and he's nice to people."
SecondTalon: "Still better looking than Jesus."

Not how I say my name

User avatar
Weeks
Hey Baby, wanna make a fortnight?
Posts: 2004
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:41 am UTC
Location: Ciudad de Panamá, Panamá

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:29 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Weeks wrote:Oh! Oh! I know this one!

...um...

*buzzes in*

What is Occam's Razor?

I'm actually not a big fan of Occam's Razor because sometimes reality is complicated. But yeah this case is pretty obvious.
Okay but do I get $500, Mr. Trebek?
NieXS wrote:Oh god that smiley ruined it.
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
Mutex wrote:Enjoy the shoe!

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10216
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:33 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:"Once is chance, two is coincidence, three is a pattern".


Arab proverb (which I can't seem to find).

"What happens once, happens once. What happens twice, happens three times."

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6532
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:44 pm UTC

Kavanaugh is starting to feel the pressure, he changed his story to ' I drank too much and did cringe worthy stuff, but I'm not a rapist.' That's a far cry from sports obsessed choir boy.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10216
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:49 pm UTC

Yeah at this point just withdraw the nom, don't drag it on any longer.

User avatar
Yablo
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:57 am UTC
Location: Juneau, Alaska

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:53 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:EDIT: It looks like I might have misread what you wrote; if that's the case, my apologies. Presuming you're saying "one or two false accusations can come out with true accusations", that much I agree with. But I don't think false accusations are common in situations like this -- and false accusations certainly don't gather more false accusations. Multiple accusations carry a collective weight and an implication of veracity; innocent people don't just tragically end up with multiple accusers describing multiple incidents that never happened. "Once is chance, two is coincidence, three is a pattern".

According to the 2017 Journal of Psychology article I linked earlier, over a five-year period, about 5% of rape allegations were deemed by the FBI to be false or baseless. I don't believe the article examined how many of those were multiple accusations by a single person or multiple accusations of a single person, but 1-in-20 is not insignificant.

I do agree that multiple accusations carry a collective weight; I just think that individual accusations should be judged on their own merits before being allowed to be considered collectively. To consider them collectively before individually would be to allow the baseless claims (if any) to carry as much weight as the legitimate ones.

Either Kavanaugh is being subjected to a massive conspiracy spanning several decades intended to defame him, or he's the kind of guy who gets drunk and sexually assaults women. And I don't think we should nominate people who commit sexual assault as Supreme Court Justices.

I'm not sure it's fair, at this point, to assume those are the only two possibilities. Just because the allegations go back decades doesn't necessarily mean a conspiracy has been around that long. And honestly, I don't believe there is a conspiracy, for the record. I do, however, believe that partisan politics is blinding many on both sides.
If you like Call of Cthulhu and modern government conspiracy, check out my Delta Green thread.
Please feel free to ask questions or leave comments.

iamspen
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 2:23 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby iamspen » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:09 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:I do agree that multiple accusations carry a collective weight; I just think that individual accusations should be judged on their own merits before being allowed to be considered collectively. To consider them collectively before individually would be to allow the baseless claims (if any) to carry as much weight as the legitimate ones.


That's one of the more asinine things I've ever read this side of a YouTube comments section. We're not trying to ascertain guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, so your assertion that we can't allow ourselves to see a pattern building against Kavanaugh before we investigate each and every one of these claims individually is, frankly, incredibly dumb.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7165
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:23 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:According to the 2017 Journal of Psychology article I linked earlier, over a five-year period, about 5% of rape allegations were deemed by the FBI to be false or baseless. I don't believe the article examined how many of those were multiple accusations by a single person or multiple accusations of a single person, but 1-in-20 is not insignificant.
I don't see the significance; my point isn't that false accusations don't happen, but that false accusations do not magically flock together.

I'm also rather leery about the FBI's ability to separate actual accusations from false accusations, but that's for another discussion. For our purposes here, I'm comfortable just 'accepting' that yes, 5% of all rape accusations are false/baseless.
Yablo wrote:I do agree that multiple accusations carry a collective weight; I just think that individual accusations should be judged on their own merits before being allowed to be considered collectively. To consider them collectively before individually would be to allow the baseless claims (if any) to carry as much weight as the legitimate ones.
If twenty people accuse a man of sexual assault, then -- by your own criteria -- we can expect one of those accusations to be false. That still leaves nineteen accusations. Even if you want to apply the 5% to each individual accusation, okay -- that just means that P (the chance everyone is lying) is 9.5367432e-27.

And if even one of those accusations is true, you shouldn't get to be a member of the Supreme Court.

In the court of law, our standards must be high and rigorous -- because our conclusions lead to the full weight of government intervention into our private lives. It is for this reason that we take an approach that would rather protect the guilty than punish the innocent.

But outside the court of law? Yes, three people accusing someone of sexual misconduct is enough for me to presume they've engaged in sexual misconduct (P = 0.000125, or 0.0125%) Hell, one person making that accusation is enough -- unless there's some compelling reason to believe they're lying, I'm going to take the radical course here and presume that the world isn't full of compulsive liars who accuse people of sexual misconduct to further their political agendas..

Even the data you yourself are citing agrees with me.
Yablo wrote:I'm not sure it's fair, at this point, to assume those are the only two possibilities. Just because the allegations go back decades doesn't necessarily mean a conspiracy has been around that long. And honestly, I don't believe there is a conspiracy, for the record. I do, however, believe that partisan politics is blinding many on both sides.
Blinding to what? Do you think partisan politics are so blinding that they caused Ford to falsely accuse Kavanaugh of sexual assault? Were they blinding her when she described the assault to her therapist years ago, too?

Like, I don't understand what sequence of events you're imagining, here. Describe them to me: Present to me an explanation for what Ford has produced (an accusation of sexual assault; an accusation corroborated by her therapist's notes and her husband both stating that she described this event long before he was a nominee) that explains what we've seen and doesn't rely on Ford being some sort of deranged compulsive liar working for the Democrats.

Otherwise, just own up to it: Tell us that we ought to consider the possibility that Ford is a liar who is using a pre-existing sexual assault or manufacturing one to further some political agenda.

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1817
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby eran_rathan » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:48 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Yablo wrote:According to the 2017 Journal of Psychology article I linked earlier, over a five-year period, about 5% of rape allegations were deemed by the FBI to be false or baseless. I don't believe the article examined how many of those were multiple accusations by a single person or multiple accusations of a single person, but 1-in-20 is not insignificant.
I don't see the significance; my point isn't that false accusations don't happen, but that false accusations do not magically flock together.

I'm also rather leery about the FBI's ability to separate actual accusations from false accusations, but that's for another discussion. For our purposes here, I'm comfortable just 'accepting' that yes, 5% of all rape accusations are false/baseless.
Yablo wrote:I do agree that multiple accusations carry a collective weight; I just think that individual accusations should be judged on their own merits before being allowed to be considered collectively. To consider them collectively before individually would be to allow the baseless claims (if any) to carry as much weight as the legitimate ones.
If twenty people accuse a man of sexual assault, then -- by your own criteria -- we can expect one of those accusations to be false. That still leaves nineteen accusations. Even if you want to apply the 5% to each individual accusation, okay -- that just means that P (the chance everyone is lying) is 9.5367432e-27.

And if even one of those accusations is true, you shouldn't get to be a member of the Supreme Court.


and yet, fully 1/4 of Americans (or half of those who voted) seem to think that 19 accusers makes one a great Presidential candidate...
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

User avatar
freezeblade
Posts: 1289
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:11 pm UTC
Location: Oakland

Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:58 pm UTC

Hence...deplorables.
Belial wrote:I am not even in the same country code as "the mood for this shit."

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10216
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:15 am UTC

Or they thought Hillary, who I remind you was partially responsible for the ongoing civil wars in Syria and Libya which have resulted in hundreds of thousands dead and probably a comparable number of rapes, would've been worse. I don't agree with that believe, but I somewhat respect it.

Voting for a person doesn't mean "I support this person and everything they stand for", but rather, "I think this person is less awful than the other one".

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1817
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:30 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Or they thought Hillary, who I remind you was partially responsible for the ongoing civil wars in Syria and Libya which have resulted in hundreds of thousands dead and probably a comparable number of rapes, would've been worse. I don't agree with that believe, but I somewhat respect it.


I don't disagree with the assessment that Obama screwed up pretty hard in both places, but they were proxy wars waiting to happen - we were screwed either way, unless we stepped in and flattened the Syrian Presidential compound. And no one in the US was in the mood for more nation-building in the middle east. Yes, Obama handled it pretty much the worst way possible short of nuking the place, but I don't see where Trump's ideas were any better.
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9996
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:25 am UTC

Amen, eran_rathan.
With a caveat.

TurtleMan, Mitch McConnell, was in a position to threaten President Obama.
Putin is in a position to threaten Trump.
Spoiler:
a caveat represents a caution noted
Deep State?
They are taking our nation apart brick by brick and turning us against one another.
Yet; Some of us are refusing to turn.

The labels don't matter.
Who is working to save our highest unrealized ideals?

Government by the People for the People of the People
Government;....The housekeeping; While we all individually run around trying to help one another be free and pursue Happiness.

There is No part of any of those jobs for a self aggrandizing narcissist.
Peace is a beautiful thing. I know; I seen it. (sigh....)

We don't need spoiled frat boys.
We need humble housekeepers.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 4944
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:38 am UTC

addams wrote:We need humble housekeepers.

I think this is a great metaphor.

You want your housekeepers to be doing something; you want the house to be nicer with them on the job than it is without them.

But you also want them to be as invisible as possible. Your activities in your own house should not revolve around the needs or whims or dictates of the housekeeping. They're there for you, not the other way around.

So if they're doing their job right, you should barely even know they've done anything, unless you stop to compare what the place would be like if they weren't there, silently, invisibly, keeping everything tidy.

But of course, you've got to pay your housekeepers, so there's always that.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9996
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:36 am UTC

Thanks Pfhorrest.
We do pay our Government Servants.

Do you know how much money TurtleMan has?
Like the Russian Oligarchs, our public service does not nor should it pay that much.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 3646
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:10 am UTC

eran_rathan wrote:I don't disagree with the assessment that Obama screwed up pretty hard in [Libya and Syria], but they were proxy wars waiting to happen - we were screwed either way, unless we stepped in and flattened the Syrian Presidential compound.

Both ways did so screw. Too much direct support for Libya's rebels is credited for the mess they're in now. With that lesson 'learnt', too little direct support for Syria's rebels is credited for the mess they're in now.

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 4944
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:25 am UTC

Yeah addams I wasn't saying anything about the Turtle in particular with the "pay your housekeepers" bit, just covering all the bases with the metaphor, because it seemed like the "Libertarian" crowd might want to use the metaphor to say something like "your housekeepers should go unnoticed except for the cleaning that they do, yeah, so they shouldn't be stealing from you", but y'know, cleaning supplies cost money and that has to come from somewhere.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

User avatar
addams
Posts: 9996
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:31 am UTC

Understood Pfhorrest.

ech! Soupspoon;
Stop crying over spilled milk!

We have a Domestic Constitutional Crisis on our hands!
And; In the last two years we have lost two hundred years of international respect!

Respect is lost very quickly.
It is regained very slowly.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

ijuin
Posts: 900
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:02 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby ijuin » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:25 pm UTC

The half-million or so per year of official salary and perks is much less concerning than the millions in graft and “donations” that Senators and Representatives receive which distort their voting on legislation to favor donors over the bulk of their constituents.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10216
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:41 pm UTC

Umm, since when do Senators and such get a half million a year in salary and perks?

If you are referring to the second home benefit, it's not that much, and FFS do you actually think that the representative from Oregon should commute?

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:44 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:I'm more interested in your apparent support of Trump. What makes Trump, in your opinion, the sort of man we need?

Tariffs aside, he's been very good for the economy. Free trade in North America is a good thing, but NAFTA was flawed. Renegotiating trade deals so they strongly favor U.S. interests is something we have needed for a long time.

He may be an arrogant jackass, but in general, his foreign policy moves go a long way toward correcting what I saw as a huge weakness in Obama's administration. Putting American interests ahead of foreign interests is a net positive for us. His speech to the U.N> recently may have been mocked by the delegates, but I thought it was strong. The message was that other nations should do what is in their own best interests first and in the interests of other nations second, and that the U.S. would do the same. I do think leaving the Human Rights Council is a misguided effort to protest, but the message is a good one: We won't be party to passing more anti-Israel resolutions than anti-Iranian, anti-Syrian, and anti-North Korean resolutions combined.

He was also the loudest voice against illegal immigration in the Republican primary debates. I don't think illegal immigration itself is what really upsets me so much as the apparent apathy or even support shown for it by many in both parties.


Well, the economy's certainly doing well, no disagreement there. And Trump, thanks to the tax policy change, can legitimately claim at least some credit. That said, the president's control over the economy is loose at best. Lots of factors in play, of course.

He's also definitely very anti-illegal immigrant. I have mixed feelings here. Sure, sure, open borders don't mix well with comprehensive safety nets, and there's a need to avoid the unprofitable immigrants...but I think a vastly better balance can be hit by modifying safety nets and the legal immigration process. I'd still prefer that people immigrate legally, but I'd like to dispose of a lot of the red tape involved. Enforcing the law, sure, sure, all well and good, but at a root level, we're not fixing the problem. A better approach to the drug war would also help mitigate common immigration worries. Overall, we're not handling immigration efficiently, AND we have a drug problem in the US. Kind of the worst of both worlds from a certain POV.

Pfhorrest wrote:Yeah addams I wasn't saying anything about the Turtle in particular with the "pay your housekeepers" bit, just covering all the bases with the metaphor, because it seemed like the "Libertarian" crowd might want to use the metaphor to say something like "your housekeepers should go unnoticed except for the cleaning that they do, yeah, so they shouldn't be stealing from you", but y'know, cleaning supplies cost money and that has to come from somewhere.


I see that as a standard of professionalism. The professional can get things done with a minimum of hand holding and oversight. In general, one expects more professionalism the more one pays, and thus, high paid housekeepers should indeed be fairly low effort to manage. If you pay the most entry level wages, well...you can't reasonably expect things to go as flawlessly.

This sort of breaks down when it comes to politics. Professionalism does not seem to be valued in high office the same way it might be elsewhere. I do wish we had a bit more of it, though.

User avatar
Yablo
Posts: 620
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:57 am UTC
Location: Juneau, Alaska

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:18 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Well, the economy's certainly doing well, no disagreement there. And Trump, thanks to the tax policy change, can legitimately claim at least some credit. That said, the president's control over the economy is loose at best. Lots of factors in play, of course.

He's also definitely very anti-illegal immigrant. I have mixed feelings here. Sure, sure, open borders don't mix well with comprehensive safety nets, and there's a need to avoid the unprofitable immigrants...but I think a vastly better balance can be hit by modifying safety nets and the legal immigration process. I'd still prefer that people immigrate legally, but I'd like to dispose of a lot of the red tape involved. Enforcing the law, sure, sure, all well and good, but at a root level, we're not fixing the problem. A better approach to the drug war would also help mitigate common immigration worries. Overall, we're not handling immigration efficiently, AND we have a drug problem in the US. Kind of the worst of both worlds from a certain POV.

No argument here on any of your points. I think we're in agreement.

Legal immigration does seem to be unnecessarily complicated and drawn out. The vetting process shouldn't take more than a few months, or a year at most. Even if the home country is so backward as to have no paper trails on its citizens, properly trained immigration researchers should be able to handle it. If legal immigration were easier and more efficient, illegal immigration numbers should drop dramatically.
If you like Call of Cthulhu and modern government conspiracy, check out my Delta Green thread.
Please feel free to ask questions or leave comments.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6532
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:26 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Well, the economy's certainly doing well, no disagreement there. And Trump, thanks to the tax policy change, can legitimately claim at least some credit. That said, the president's control over the economy is loose at best. Lots of factors in play, of course.

He's also definitely very anti-illegal immigrant. I have mixed feelings here. Sure, sure, open borders don't mix well with comprehensive safety nets, and there's a need to avoid the unprofitable immigrants...but I think a vastly better balance can be hit by modifying safety nets and the legal immigration process. I'd still prefer that people immigrate legally, but I'd like to dispose of a lot of the red tape involved. Enforcing the law, sure, sure, all well and good, but at a root level, we're not fixing the problem. A better approach to the drug war would also help mitigate common immigration worries. Overall, we're not handling immigration efficiently, AND we have a drug problem in the US. Kind of the worst of both worlds from a certain POV.

No argument here on any of your points. I think we're in agreement.

Legal immigration does seem to be unnecessarily complicated and drawn out. The vetting process shouldn't take more than a few months, or a year at most. Even if the home country is so backward as to have no paper trails on its citizens, properly trained immigration researchers should be able to handle it. If legal immigration were easier and more efficient, illegal immigration numbers should drop dramatically.

For the people in charge, the goal isn't always to process immigrantion papers as quickly as possible. For example, the goal might be to whiten immigrants so that less minorities come in. This isn't entirely Trump's administration fault, but he's certainly made it worse. For example, the h1b Visa has limited slots even though it's an extremely high return. Why? Why are the amount of green card slots so few? Why does paperwork for the few slots that do exist take forever as well?
Out of bureaucratic inertia or malice, we have decided that immigration doesn't deserve as many resources as other programs.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10216
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:38 pm UTC

Are you sure the H1B visa program actually does have such high rates of return? From what I understand, while the H1B in theory is about bringing in foreign talent and filling in skills gaps, in practice it has been used to undercut the upper-middle and middle classes to benefit the hyper-class of tech billionaires.

User avatar
Dauric
Posts: 3938
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:58 pm UTC
Location: In midair, traversing laterally over a container of sharks. No water, just sharks, with lasers.

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:39 pm UTC

Another problem with illegal immigration has little to do with U.S. immigration policies, namely how shitfuckingly violent many south american countries have become, thanks in no small part to U.S. drug policy.

During the height of the family separation policy I saw interviews with illegal immigrants that went effectively: "Sure, I'm separated from my kids, and I have no idea where they are or how they're being treated, but it's still better than where we fled from."

Until the cartel entrenchment in many of these governments is dealt with (at this point I'm not sure if the necessary changes to U.S. drug laws would mean a whole lot of shift in this situation) the people coming to the U.S. to flee from the violence won't be reduced. Unfortunately this would require some degree of interventionism, either from the U.S. or the U.N., neither of which has a good record of doing interventions well.

This is where I think Trump's policies are idiotic, indeed worse than the politicians who didn't hold strong policy positions on the matter. First off is a regression to the glory days of the War on Drugs, which built the opportunity the cartels exploited to get to where they are now, and secondly by focusing on "A Wall" which has been a stupid idea since every time it's been tried (China, Berlin, etc.)
Last edited by Dauric on Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:47 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
We're in the traffic-chopper over the XKCD boards where there's been a thread-derailment. A Liquified Godwin spill has evacuated threads in a fourty-post radius of the accident, Lolcats and TVTropes have broken free of their containers. It is believed that the Point has perished.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10216
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:45 pm UTC

Question; how consistent are you in regards to blaming countries for drug problems? Do you blame 19th century China's anti-opium policies for either the regional piracy problem or the Opium Wars?

User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 1896
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:46 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Another problem with illegal immigration has little to do with U.S. immigration policies, namely how shitfuckingly violent many south american countries have become, thanks in no small part to U.S. drug policy.
Well, what's the alternative? What are you going to do, look at other countries' handling of drug use and abuse among the population and how other countries treat their prisoners and see how well that's working out for them? Focus on verifiable results and prioritise improvements in overall outcomes? That's getting dangerously close to science! You start thinking it's more important to reduce violent crime victimisation rates among the population as a whole than to make sure any black teenager caught with half a gram of pot loses all his teeth and can never legally own a gun today, and tomorrow you're believing in anthropogenic climate change, then the day after tomorrow storms start workin' backwards and New York gets filled with salt water frozen solid in mid-wave by a blast of air at 0.1 atmospheres pressure. Is that what you want to happen? Do you want to see the Statue of Liberty encased in ice an inch thick deposited on her warm copper by a few litres of air?
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10216
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:57 pm UTC

Prison systems can't really be compared throughout the world. Scandinavia has low recidivism with their prisons, but that's only possible because they also have a welfare state that supports the whole population. Before turning the prisons into rehabilitation centers, we would have to have a functioning system for the poor and homeless such that prison isn't the easiest way to improve their lot in life. Work on that one first, but let's be honest, that ain't happening anytime soon.

In terms of most effective reduction in drug abuse, that actually goes to Singapore. It's... not pretty.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:03 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:Another problem with illegal immigration has little to do with U.S. immigration policies, namely how shitfuckingly violent many south american countries have become, thanks in no small part to U.S. drug policy.


Yeah, that's why I mentioned the drug war in that bit. I'm under no illusion that we can fix this overnight, but ultimately, we've created some particularly strong market forces with our drug policy. I have nothing against walls in particular, but building a wall won't ultimately change the incentives, even if it does make the transportation slightly more difficult via one channel. People are endlessly inventive in getting around restrictions so long as large enough incentives exist.

It'd be nice if we at least started the process of fixing that. Weed legalization is one step in the right direction, I suppose. Many more to be made.

CorruptUser wrote:In terms of most effective reduction in drug abuse, that actually goes to Singapore. It's... not pretty.


Singapore, while remarkably strict in some ways, also has an extremely dense population and some natural isolation in terms of geography. Even if one is willing to accept the social costs of their authoritarian tendencies, they would probably work less well in the USA. Those factors simply make it easier to catch someone in Singapore.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10216
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:11 pm UTC

Weed legalization was always weird. It was always the minimum wage of drugs, and if anything was at best a loss leader for the cartels considering that as can be guessed by the name, it grows just about anywhere and just about anyone can set up shop.

However, it was a gateway drug... for dealing. With weed legal, that stops.

Mutex
Posts: 1378
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:32 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:51 pm UTC

Right, once people don't have to associate with people who also sell harder drugs to get their weed, it'll be interesting to see how other drug usage changes.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6549
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:12 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:Tariffs aside, he's been very good for the economy.
It seems to me that he's spending our endowment, and pretending it's a dividend. Further, taking credit for the endowment in the first place.

First off, the stock market is not the economy. It's merely the visible signs that people are betting that corporations are going to make (lots of) profit. But it's important how they make this profit. Doing so through externalities means that we, individuals, people, are paying for their profit without any accounting. Trump is allowing, enabling, and encouraging the offloading of real costs as externalities through the destruction of regulations that protect us individuals. These include environmental regulations, consumer protection regulations, workplace safety regulations, health care regulations, privacy regulations, and all the other things that defend (otherwise powerless) individuals against the huge forces that corporate entites muster as a matter of course.

Similarly, jobs are not the economy. Sure, jobs are good, but not if the job is pouring motor oil into the river, smashing solar cells, harrassing people at dinnertime over the phone, or robbing people at gunpoint. It may be good for the person getting paid to do these things, but these are not good things to do in the first place.

Third, the country is not a company and should not be run as one. A company is run as a dictatorship for the purpose of generating income. That's not what a country is all about. A country exists fundamentally for a different purpose, and making a profit, or even a "good deal" isn't that purpose. Everything a country does exists in a global context of many many other things. To wit:
Yablo wrote:He may be an arrogant jackass, but in general, his foreign policy moves go a long way toward correcting what I saw as a huge weakness in Obama's administration. Putting American interests ahead of foreign interests is a net positive for us. His speech to the U.N. recently may have been mocked by the delegates, but I thought it was strong. The message was that other nations should do what is in their own best interests first and in the interests of other nations second, and that the U.S. would do the same.
For one simple example, defending our country costs money. It costs a lot less money if we don't have so many enemies. It costs even less money if we have a lot of friends and partners who of like mind, and along with us, want peace and freedom, in the same way that the United States does. This is far more valuable than getting the "best" trade deal possible, whatever that may mean. If it means a few more avocados come in than Chryslers go out, I'm good with that. (Besides, Chryslers are junk and avocados are the food of the gods. But that's besides the point.)

Being nice to people is how you make friends. It's reciprocal, and generates reciprocity. Sometimes being nice costs you - like when you bring a friend to the store to help them out when their car has a flat. Do you charge them like a taxi driver? Of course not - if you did you'd run out of friends quickly. The same is true on a global scale, only far more intricately.

What Trump is doing instead is antagonizing and alienating our allies while aligning himself with the very dictators whose values this country stands against. Further, he is riling up discord in the country and advancing discord in the world.

Cooperation is what brings peace, and peace is what brings prosperity.

Antagonism, bullying, promoting the idea of adversarial rather than cooperative relationships, threatening nuclear war, and all the other things this reckless-excuse-of-a-man we have in the White House stands for is the utter antithesis of what our global interests are.

At least what I think our global interests are.

So let me ask you... before even talking about how Trump does or does not advance our global interests, what do you think our global interests are?

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CorruptUser, The Great Hippo, Yahoo [Bot] and 13 guests