Trump presidency

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Zohar
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:51 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:You say this like he hasn't been pushing for it all along. It was just under a year ago that he offered Democrats amnesty for almost triple the number of actual DACA recipients in exchange for support for the wall.
You mean when Trump decided to screw over almost a million people that the government guaranteed would have a legal place in the US?

I know Democrats have proposed a bill to fund Homeland Security at current levels, and it’s Trump who is pushing against it. I also believe that bill, being a temporary measure, is a good one and should be passed, and the wall fight should be saved for later.
So why do you keep blaming Democrats? You're literally saying it's Trump who's pushing it, and you're literally saying you think this is wrong, and you keep blaming Democrats for this. What sort of fantasy logic world do you live in?

But I also believe the Democrats are doing the same thing to Trump now that he did to them with his amnesty offer; make a reasonable offer the other side will never accept, not because it’s really what you want to achieve, but because it makes the other side look like tantrum-throwing children.
They're offering what the Republican party offered! How is this something that's unreasonable for the other side to accept if the other side is literally the side that suggested it? And no, saying "I won't be a lying shithead and screw over almost a million people for political gain, and you will be cool with a completely wasteful project that's not going to do anything but increase my political gain" is not a reasonable offer.

You still haven't addressed how overjoyed Trump is to have a shutdown in the first place, how he wanted it to go down exactly this way, how he thought it's a good idea to hold all federal employees hostage around holiday time, and boasted about it. And you haven't addressed how any of this is even relevant at all considering there is zero proof there's any sort of immigration crisis going on.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:18 pm UTC

Or He might need Congressional approval at some point to issue sanctions like that but I'm not sure.


Trump is capital-H He now? like Jesus, Helium and He-Man?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:32 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Or He might need Congressional approval at some point to issue sanctions like that but I'm not sure.


Trump is capital-H He now? like Jesus, Helium and He-Man?

Phones are hard to edit, cut me some slack. :/

Polling indicates that the longer this goes on, the more it shifts towards he said she said. So there public blames Trump for causing it, but blames both sides for not resolving it.
Remember, unless this drags on for months, or*gasp*affects richer whiter people, none of this will affect elections. FYI, IRS just promised to not delay tax refunds, so that pressure went away.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:40 pm UTC

gd1 wrote:I wouldn't call it white male identity politics. It's probably more like "the way things used to be".


You say that as if it's not the same thing..."The way things used to be" is an enormous dog-whistle.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:46 pm UTC

gd1 wrote:I wouldn't call it white male identity politics. It's probably more like "the way things used to be".

Which was literally a time when white men tried to force everyone to adopt a handful of identities in order to subjugate them. When they complain about identity politics, they are complaining that people aren't forced to accept those identities, and they are complaining that we can no longer subjugate people for their identity. That's what the gay baker case was about - Republicans want to be able to socially punish people in order to force their identity politics on them. They believe freedom is the right for everyone to enact fascist mini-states that make the lives of women and minorities hell if they do not act in the interest of white men.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:52 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:
gd1 wrote:I wouldn't call it white male identity politics. It's probably more like "the way things used to be".


You say that as if it's not the same thing..."The way things used to be" is an enormous dog-whistle.


Not all of his supporters are white. They may tend to gloss over what that statement means in its entirety in the same way that they gloss over/rationalize Mexico will pay for the wall not meaning they literally cut us a check (as well as other stuff). To be fair, I gloss over stuff and others probably do too. It's fine that we gloss over things. What isn't fine is that Trump is actually hurting the country. It's hard to point out to his supporters exactly where and how in a way that they won't overlook it, but I will remind the ones who are reading: He had a personal driver for over 20 years who had to sue him for overtime pay. Not some guy in a back office somewhere. His personal driver, who got a total of two raises* in those 20+ years (one of which was raked back by having his medical benefits cancelled). That's not taking care of the little guy and that should tell you all you need to know about him. Hillary has done stuff, other people have done stuff, fine. That doesn't make this go away, and if you think that he's in your corner, just think that if a guy showed him 20+ years of overtime loyalty and was often in face to face contact with him had to sue him for overtime pay, what hope do you think you have for showing him only 4 or 8 years of loyalty?

*In the interest of full disclosure he had a salary of 70k... in New York, where a parking space can cost 20k a year.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:16 pm UTC

They don't just gloss over that stuff, they are saying we need to go back to that time, while blaming all of our problems on immigrants, foreigners, and the attempt to achieve equality itself. They are consciously dismissing the concerns of the people who have been historically oppressed, and even dismiss the existence of systemic discrimination while defending discrimination as a first amendment right.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:45 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:They don't just gloss over that stuff, they are saying we need to go back to that time, while blaming all of our problems on immigrants, foreigners, and the attempt to achieve equality itself. They are consciously dismissing the concerns of the people who have been historically oppressed, and even dismiss the existence of systemic discrimination while defending discrimination as a first amendment right.


Are we getting into an us vs them scenario? I'm getting a pit in my stomach about the idea. I already had some noodle crack so I'm not simply hungry...
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:54 pm UTC

Republican politics is "us vs them". If you listen to Republicans talk about politics, they are primarily opposed to Democrats, liberals, leftists, progressives, etc. They don't even debate policy, they just apply the label of their opponents to say it's bad - call it liberal, socialist, Marxist, or whatever and the merits don't even matter, only that it's associated with the opposition.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:34 am UTC

gd1 wrote:
freezeblade wrote:
gd1 wrote:I wouldn't call it white male identity politics. It's probably more like "the way things used to be".


You say that as if it's not the same thing..."The way things used to be" is an enormous dog-whistle.


Not all of his supporters are white.
It's true that not all of his supporters are white. But is that important? Does that mean that this can't possibly be white male identity politics? Is the fact that not literally every supporter is a white man even relevant to the issue?

We all agree that if we found a member of the KKK who was black, this wouldn't change the nature of the KKK; it's a racist organization centered around the notion of white supremacy and white identity. Why should this be different in regards to the party of Trump? Especially when you consider that while not literally every Trump supporter is white, they are nevertheless overwhelmingly white.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:40 am UTC

Yablo wrote:No, it's not normal, but it's also not just Trump who is making it this way. Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi aren't helping the situation in the least. Both sides are throwing tantrums and blaming the other.
If a child lays down on the floor and refuses to move until you give him a lollipop, is it appropriate to give in to his demands?

What sort of concessions are you imagining they should make to Trump? Besides "Here's a pointless five billion dollar contribution to your re-election campaign"? Because that's the only concession he'll accept. And not one dollar less. This isn't a negotiation; the President of the United States is throwing a tantrum until he gets exactly what he wants: Five billion dollars to blow on a pet project that will do absolutely nothing to address the non-existent crisis of illegal immigration (well, 'non-existent crisis' up until his administration managed to turn it into a humanitarian one).

There are no deals to be made, here -- there's only "give me precisely what I want" or "fuck you, I'm shutting down the government". And this makes sense given what we know of him -- he's a very all-or-nothing player. He handles politics as a zero-sum transaction: every victory for your side is a loss for his side (and vice versa). Because he's an idiot.

At the very least, this style of 'salt-the-earth' "deal-making" shouldn't be rewarded -- especially not by Republicans. Unless you really just like extending the precedent of executive power even further.
Yablo wrote:I realize saving up a month's pay isn't exactly easy, but it's possible (and even necessary for some), and it's responsible.
No. It isn't always possible. Indeed, it is sometimes literally impossible.

The fact that you think otherwise explains a lot about your character.
Last edited by The Great Hippo on Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:10 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:09 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
gd1 wrote:
freezeblade wrote:
gd1 wrote:I wouldn't call it white male identity politics. It's probably more like "the way things used to be".


You say that as if it's not the same thing..."The way things used to be" is an enormous dog-whistle.


Not all of his supporters are white.
It's true that not all of his supporters are white. But is that important? Does that mean that this can't possibly be white male identity politics? Is the fact that not literally every supporter is a white man even relevant to the issue?

We all agree that if we found a member of the KKK who was black, this wouldn't change the nature of the KKK; it's a racist organization centered around the notion of white supremacy and white identity. Why should this be different in regards to the party of Trump? Especially when you consider that while not literally every Trump supporter is white, they are nevertheless overwhelmingly white.


It means that we need to take that into consideration when looking at why the message appeals to more than just white voters. It's appealing to the nostalgia of the good old days. Before corruption. Before Bernie Sanders got blacked out by almost every news agency in the country and as a result I lost respect for every single one of them (and many of the media personalities like Colbert) for a while (I will remember what they did for a long time). Unfortunately, they don't see what going back to those days would entail. However, with things like lgbt especially, there is no way that they will ever listen to you (going to try and channel some yahoo comments now...). They feel that lgbt is a perversion of reality and a sickness rather than a group of people who deserve rights. They feel that lgbt is an affront to God and tolerating them at all brings destruction to everything. They feel that lgbt are forcing them to accept and even enable sin or lose their jobs and businesses. They feel that lgbt is a choice because God would never force someone to commit a sin "so heinous" (exactly those words quoted). And now if you'll excuse me for a moment...

Image

Actually, on second thought...

Image

As for the border wall...
The question for them isn't much of what he said necessarily. It's, we don't want to pay for those people who won't pay for themselves.

My rambling view:
+Law of diminishing returns/is it actually worth it to spend that money?
+What will a border wall do to our country in the future/psychologically/other implications?
+Other countries built walls because of people trying to invade them with armies in most cases (bandits for towns)
+I personally feel that we should try to get such people to get jobs if able and pay taxes here through one means or another
+I'm honestly not sure, the wisdom here is to evaluate the wall and also keep that Trump is a scumbag in mind (discarding it is factoring out a variable)

LASTLY:.
[url]Is it worth it to block people from getting in to this country? Is there a better way (especially with a wall, but also in general)? These are the questions.[/url]
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:37 am UTC

gd1 wrote:It means that we need to take that into consideration when looking at why the message appeals to more than just white voters.
But if the core base of Trump is overwhelmingly white -- if Trumpism appeals to white men more than anyone else -- then I think that's the most important thing to look at, isn't it?

When you look at large populations, you'll always have some small percentage who will behave in ways you can't foresee or otherwise address. If I asked every person in America, "Would you like to be set on fire right now?", someone would say "yes". Because people are weird and unpredictable. But when addressing trends like this, you focus on the core demographics; you focus on the majority -- who they are, what they say, and what they believe. The majority of Trump supporters are overwhelmingly white; a lot of them are male. I haven't looked at any numbers for this, but I suspect most of them are straight, and (as you say) oppose the legal recognition of LGBTQ identity (as in, opposed to legal recognition of transgender identity, gay marriage, or extending legal protections against prejudice to encompass queer identity -- etc).

These are all talking points of white male identity. Not to imply that there aren't any LGBTQ white men (there are many!), but when talking about 'white identity politics' (particularly in the context of America), that's typically part of it: Opposition to legal recognition of LGBTQ identity is baked in. I'm sure there's some pro-LGBTQ white nationalists out there (I mean, I've seen Nazi furries, for goodness sake!), but they're kind of like an African-American KKK member -- exceptional cases.
gd1 wrote:As for the border wall...
The question for them isn't much of what he said necessarily. It's, we don't want to pay for those people who won't pay for themselves.

My rambling view:
+Law of diminishing returns/is it actually worth it to spend that money?
+What will a border wall do to our country in the future/psychologically/other implications?
+Other countries built walls because of people trying to invade them with armies in most cases (bandits for towns)
+I personally feel that we should try to get such people to get jobs if able and pay taxes here through one means or another
+I'm honestly not sure, the wisdom here is to evaluate the wall and also keep that Trump is a scumbag in mind (discarding it is factoring out a variable)
It feels really strange having to point this out, but: Building a wall in no way addresses illegal immigration. It's the sort of solution a five-year-old would come up with: "Global warming? Let's build giant refrigerators and cool the globe down!" Just by suggesting this, Trump and his supporters demonstrate a breathtaking lack of comprehension re: illegal immigration.

"Let's build a wall" is a rallying cry -- not an actual policy. If anything, it's the absence of an immigration policy. Trump doesn't want five billion dollars to re-vitalize our out-dated immigration policies and infrastructure; he wants five billion dollars to literally build a wall. He's even threatening to make the military do it.

The debate over the wall isn't a debate worth having. It's like arguing with a flat-earther: What's the point? If someone thinks building a really big wall between the United States and Mexico is reasonable and sensible, they're not going to understand that undocumented immigrants aren't even a serious threat to begin with.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:55 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
gd1 wrote:It means that we need to take that into consideration when looking at why the message appeals to more than just white voters.
But if the core base of Trump is overwhelmingly white -- if Trumpism appeals to white men more than anyone else -- then I think that's the most important thing to look at, isn't it?

When you look at large populations, you'll always have some small percentage who will behave in ways you can't foresee or otherwise address. If I asked every person in America, "Would you like to be set on fire right now?", someone would say "yes". Because people are weird and unpredictable. But when addressing trends like this, you focus on the core demographics; you focus on the majority -- who they are, what they say, and what they believe. The majority of Trump supporters are overwhelmingly white; a lot of them are male. I haven't looked at any numbers for this, but I suspect most of them are straight, and (as you say) oppose the legal recognition of LGBTQ identity (as in, opposed to legal recognition of transgender identity, gay marriage, or extending legal protections against prejudice to encompass queer identity -- etc).

These are all talking points of white male identity. Not to imply that there aren't any LGBTQ white men (there are many!), but when talking about 'white identity politics' (particularly in the context of America), that's typically part of it: Opposition to legal recognition of LGBTQ identity is baked in. I'm sure there's some pro-LGBTQ white nationalists out there (I mean, I've seen Nazi furries, for goodness sake!), but they're kind of like an African-American KKK member -- exceptional cases.
gd1 wrote:As for the border wall...
The question for them isn't much of what he said necessarily. It's, we don't want to pay for those people who won't pay for themselves.

My rambling view:
+Law of diminishing returns/is it actually worth it to spend that money?
+What will a border wall do to our country in the future/psychologically/other implications?
+Other countries built walls because of people trying to invade them with armies in most cases (bandits for towns)
+I personally feel that we should try to get such people to get jobs if able and pay taxes here through one means or another
+I'm honestly not sure, the wisdom here is to evaluate the wall and also keep that Trump is a scumbag in mind (discarding it is factoring out a variable)
It feels really strange having to point this out, but: Building a wall in no way addresses illegal immigration. It's the sort of solution a five-year-old would come up with: "Global warming? Let's build giant refrigerators and cool the globe down!" Just by suggesting this, Trump and his supporters demonstrate a breathtaking lack of comprehension re: illegal immigration.

"Let's build a wall" is a rallying cry -- not an actual policy. If anything, it's the absence of an immigration policy. Trump doesn't want five billion dollars to re-vitalize our out-dated immigration policies and infrastructure; he wants five billion dollars to literally build a wall. He's even threatening to make the military do it.

The debate over the wall isn't a debate worth having. It's like arguing with a flat-earther: What's the point? If someone thinks building a really big wall between the United States and Mexico is reasonable and sensible, they're not going to understand that undocumented immigrants aren't even a serious threat to begin with.


1> It is more likely that you can convince people who aren't the core demographic if you try to understand what is appealing to them and I feel that's important more from a moral point rather than just winning votes.
2> Whether you want to have that debate or not, their support of the wall is making the possibility of it more real than just idle talk. It's hard to say anything to anyone these days because people just don't know who to believe.

Thesh wrote:Republican politics is "us vs them". If you listen to Republicans talk about politics, they are primarily opposed to Democrats, liberals, leftists, progressives, etc. They don't even debate policy, they just apply the label of their opponents to say it's bad - call it liberal, socialist, Marxist, or whatever and the merits don't even matter, only that it's associated with the opposition.


We need to not hate things. Hatred just creates more hatred. If we hate them they won't listen AND it will hurt us inside. We've got to stop making this us vs them (at least on our end). We're only human so this can be very difficult, but any less hatred we feel is less hatred in total.
Last edited by gd1 on Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:59 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:59 am UTC

gd1 wrote:1> It is more likely that you can convince people who aren't the core demographic if you try to understand what is appealing to them and I feel that's important more from a moral point rather than just winning votes.
What if what appeals to them is for me to suffocate and die?
gd1 wrote:2> Whether you want to have that debate or not, their support of the wall is making the possibility of it more real than just idle talk. It's hard to say anything to anyone these days because people just don't know who to believe.
And I can kind of understand why: Walls are exciting! They're something you can touch, feel, look at. You can even make a neat little 'PERCENTAGE COMPLETED' info-graphic for it. And when you're done, you can stand in front of it with a big flashy banner that says 'MISSION ACCOMPLISHED'. Then everyone applauds. Job well done! Immigration is solved, everybody! We can all go home.

But actual comprehensive immigration reform? That's work. Tedious, thankless, boring work. And when you're finally done? No ceremony. No applause. You can make a little 'PERCENTAGE COMPLETE' info-graphic, but no one will look at it. Of course, it also means you might actually address illegal immigration, but who cares? You didn't even get a flashy banner out of the deal.

Boo.
gd1 wrote:We need to not hate things. Hatred just creates more hatred. If we hate them they won't listen AND it will hurt us inside. We've got to stop making this us vs them (at least on our end). We're only human, but any less hatred we show is less hatred in total.
It's really hard to not hate people when they're breaking up your families, deporting your loved ones, and shooting you in the face.

Speaking as a pacifist who believes that hatred is ultimately a toxin that will kill you: Sometimes, hate is the only thing that keeps you alive.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:03 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
gd1 wrote:1> It is more likely that you can convince people who aren't the core demographic if you try to understand what is appealing to them and I feel that's important more from a moral point rather than just winning votes.
What if what appeals to them is for me to suffocate and die?
gd1 wrote:2> Whether you want to have that debate or not, their support of the wall is making the possibility of it more real than just idle talk. It's hard to say anything to anyone these days because people just don't know who to believe.
And I can kind of understand why: Walls are exciting! They're something you can touch, feel, look at. You can even make a neat little 'PERCENTAGE COMPLETED' info-graphic for it. And when you're done, you can stand in front of it with a big flashy banner that says 'MISSION ACCOMPLISHED'. Then everyone applauds. Job well done! Immigration is solved, everybody! We can all go home.

But actual comprehensive immigration reform? That's work. Tedious, thankless, boring work. And when you're finally done? No ceremony. No applause. You can make a little 'PERCENTAGE COMPLETE' info-graphic, but no one will care. Of course, it also means you might actually address illegal immigration, but who cares? You didn't even get a flashy banner out of the deal.

Boo.
gd1 wrote:We need to not hate things. Hatred just creates more hatred. If we hate them they won't listen AND it will hurt us inside. We've got to stop making this us vs them (at least on our end). We're only human, but any less hatred we show is less hatred in total.
It's really hard to not hate people when they're breaking up your families, deporting your loved ones, and shooting you in the face.

Speaking as a pacifist who believes that hatred is ultimately a toxin that will kill you: Sometimes, hate is the only thing that keeps you alive.


I'm Muslim. Some of them think I want to kill them and some of them think that they should kill/deport/etc me first.

There is no good reason for hatred (except Satan in my religion). We're only human, but that's an excuse rather than a good reason. If hatred keeps a person alive, is that even a life worth living?
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:25 am UTC

gd1 wrote:There is no good reason for hatred (except Satan in my religion). We're only human, but that's an excuse rather than a good reason. If hatred keeps a person alive, is that even a life worth living?
For your whole life? No. But to survive a dreadful ordeal? Yes.

Listen: I'd be dead if it wasn't for hate. It's true that, now that I don't need that hate, most of my time is spent managing the lingering toxicity left over by it. I have to struggle constantly to reject the hateful coping mechanisms that I developed as a teenager just to stay alive. But that's the thing: I'm still alive to try.

To anyone who believes in never giving into hate, hats off to you; it's an admirable approach. But don't tell me that every person who's ever been beaten, spat upon, kicked, shoved down stairs, told to go kill themselves, or otherwise assaulted needs to always remind themselves that the people doing this are human beings worthy of respect and love. Sure, I believe that now, but back then? Believing that would have killed me.

Hate is poison. But when you're lost in the desert, you'll drink anything to survive.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:25 am UTC

gd1 wrote:We need to not hate things. Hatred just creates more hatred. If we hate them they won't listen AND it will hurt us inside. We've got to stop making this us vs them (at least on our end). We're only human so this can be very difficult, but any less hatred we feel is less hatred in total.


Let me put it this way: Donald Trump is a fascist. An actual literal fascist, who is President. I'm a leftist, and fascists historically round leftists up and kill them. All we hear from Republicans is about how people like me are a threat to America, and what we see from the right is everything they are doing is about trying to secure power and suppress the opposition. So if Republicans and Trump are successful, there is a very high probability that I will be executed by the state.

Trump and the Republicans are close to their goal, and the only people standing in their way are Democrats. People like Yablo are arguing that literally the Democrats need to stop opposing the fascism. Democrats have bent over backwards to try and compromise with Republicans, and Republicans absolutely refuse to give an inch, and yet all Yablo can do is criticize the Democrats for not giving more. Republicans absolutely refuse to listen to the left, and literally believe we are an existential threat. Telling Democrats to not hate Republicans is literally the same as telling black people to not hate the KKK. Their politics are that they oppose my existence in America.

The sickest part? All of this, the blaming of immigrants and foreigners, the anti-intellectual propaganda, the turning of any label that describes their opponents into a pejorative, and the destruction of democracy is all just because Republican economic policies have completely failed to deliver for decades, and the party knows for a fact that if actual economic debate is allowed then the Republicans will lose. So they need a distraction, and what is it that gets Republicans to the polls more than anything? Their contempt for foreigners and Americans who don't adhere to their identity. No matter how bad their policies fail, racism and attacks on anyone to the left of them is enough for them to hold power and win elections.

Fuck them, they are disgusting people, and I'm so sick of having to walk around on eggshells to protect them from getting outraged at yet another thing.

"He's not hurting the people he needs to be" - a Trump supporter
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:31 am UTC

Thesh wrote:Telling Democrats to not hate Republicans is literally the same as telling black people to not hate the KKK. Their politics are that they oppose my existence in America.
Listen, I agree with your vector, but I think you need to reduce your scalar.

Black people in America have plenty more (very specific) reasons to hate the KKK than leftists have to hate the Republican party.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:34 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
gd1 wrote:There is no good reason for hatred (except Satan in my religion). We're only human, but that's an excuse rather than a good reason. If hatred keeps a person alive, is that even a life worth living?
For your whole life? No. But to survive a dreadful ordeal? Yes.

Listen: I'd be dead if it wasn't for hate. It's true that, now that I don't need that hate, most of my time is spent managing the lingering toxicity left over by it. I have to struggle constantly to reject the hateful coping mechanisms that I developed as a teenager just to stay alive. But that's the thing: I'm still alive to try.

To anyone who believes in never giving into hate, hats off to you; it's an admirable approach. But don't tell me that every person who's ever been beaten, spat upon, kicked, shoved down stairs, told to go kill themselves, or otherwise assaulted needs to always remind themselves that the people doing this are human beings worthy of respect and love. Sure, I believe that now, but back then? Believing that would have killed me.

Hate is poison. But when you're lost in the desert, you'll drink anything to survive.


I'm sorry, but I believe in an afterlife that is better than this life so resorting to hatred to stay alive isn't necessary (though I'm only human so I don't know what I'd do until I do it).

I'm basing this off my religion telling me that the only thing I should hate is Satan. Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know.

Thesh wrote:
gd1 wrote:We need to not hate things. Hatred just creates more hatred. If we hate them they won't listen AND it will hurt us inside. We've got to stop making this us vs them (at least on our end). We're only human so this can be very difficult, but any less hatred we feel is less hatred in total.


Let me put it this way: Donald Trump is a fascist. An actual literal fascist, who is President. I'm a leftist, and fascists historically round leftists up and kill them. All we hear from Republicans is about how people like me are a threat to America, and what we see from the right is everything they are doing is about trying to secure power and suppress the opposition. So if Republicans and Trump are successful, there is a very high probability that I will be executed by the state.

Trump and the Republicans are close to their goal, and the only people standing in their way is Democrats. People like Yablo are arguing that literally the Democrats need to stop opposing the fascism. Democrats have bent over backwards to try and compromise with Republicans, and Republicans absolutely refuse to give an inch, and yet all Yablo can do is criticize the Democrats for not giving more. Republicans absolutely refuse to listen to the left, and literally believe we are an existential threat. Telling Democrats to not hate Republicans is literally the same as telling black people to not hate the KKK. Their politics are that they oppose my existence in America.

The sickest part? All of this, the blaming of immigrants and foreigners, the anti-intellectual propaganda, the turning of any label that describes their opponents into a pejorative, and the destruction of democracy is all just because Republican economic policies have completely failed to deliver for decades, and the party knows for a fact that if actual economic debate is allowed then the Republicans will lose. So they need a distraction, and what is it that gets Republicans to the polls more than anything? Their contempt for foreigners and Americans who don't adhere to their identity. No matter how bad their policies fail, racism and attacks on anyone to the left of them is enough for them to hold power and win elections.

Fuck them, they are disgusting people, and I'm so sick of having to walk around on eggshells to protect them from getting outraged at yet another thing.

"He's not hurting the people he needs to be" - a Trump supporter
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I feel religiously that every bit of suffering I endure removes some of my sins. Still, I'm only human and I've got problems, so I can't judge people. I'm just saying my piece. I have to take my own advice to heart.

Remember, any less hate is less hate.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:48 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Thesh wrote:Telling Democrats to not hate Republicans is literally the same as telling black people to not hate the KKK. Their politics are that they oppose my existence in America.
Listen, I agree with your vector, but I think you need to reduce your scalar.

Black people in America have plenty more (very specific) reasons to hate the KKK than leftists have to hate the Republican party.


My point was that if Republicans are successful, they will use state violence against Democrats and the left, starting with arrests of party leaders, journalists, and activists, and moving towards greater and greater police violence and surveillance to suppress the left. It will happen fast, and a lot of people will die, and that's why Democrats in general have good reason to hate Republicans. It's not about what they've done up until this point, it's about how far they are willing to go.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:02 am UTC

gd1 wrote:I'm sorry, but I believe in an afterlife that is better than this life so resorting to hatred to stay alive isn't necessary (though I'm only human so I don't know what I'd do until I do it).
That's understandable, and I don't spite you for it; I also appreciate that you acknowledge you don't know what you would do under different circumstances. I think preaching universal acceptance and tolerance are good things, and we should encourage people not to give in to hate. I believe -- very strongly! -- that hatred hurts not only those who are targeted by it, but those who perpetuate it and feel it themselves.

But I also must acknowledge that it's easy for me to reject hatred1. I don't experience daily violence or prejudice, for example. Pacifism isn't very hard when no one's trying to kill you! Which is why calling upon others to reject their hatred can sometimes come off as condescending and rude -- especially when their hate is a response to a painful situation or experience.

I mean, fair's fair; there's plenty of times I see people engaging in 'frivolous' hate -- hate that's clearly not a survival mechanic, or doesn't come from a clearly identifiable place of pain (people sending death-threats to Anita Sarkeesian, for example). But even in these cases, that 'frivolous' hate can come from something real. This is why, before I call on someone to abandon their hate, I try to understand where that hatred is coming from. Because when you tell someone they should abandon their hate, you imply (for better or worse) that the source of that hate isn't genuine.

Basically, I'm saying that it's a positive message, but temper it with understanding. Hate is usually an expression of pain, and -- depending on where you're standing -- telling someone to abandon their pain can be like a rich dude telling homeless people to 'abandon their homelessness'.

1Well, maybe not easy -- but my hardship in regards to getting over my personal shit is on me, no one else.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:46 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I mean, fair's fair; there's plenty of times I see people engaging in 'frivolous' hate -- hate that's clearly not a survival mechanic, or doesn't come from a clearly identifiable place of pain (people sending death-threats to Anita Sarkeesian, for example).


Uh... it's really not that hard. It's guys who can't get laid for whatever reason projecting those reasons onto her. And no, not all of the guys who can't get laid are basement dwelling neckbeards with no jobs or hygiene.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:36 pm UTC

gd1 wrote:Not all of his supporters are white.

People have internalized racism, just as much as they have internalized homophobia and misogyny. You've never heard of women who aren't feminists, or gay people who are homophobic? It's part of the culture, and it's very hard to escape from. And part of the culture of the Republican party is perpetuating white supremacist ideals.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby PAstrychef » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:05 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:I mean, fair's fair; there's plenty of times I see people engaging in 'frivolous' hate -- hate that's clearly not a survival mechanic, or doesn't come from a clearly identifiable place of pain (people sending death-threats to Anita Sarkeesian, for example).


Uh... it's really not that hard. It's guys who can't get laid for whatever reason projecting those reasons onto her. And no, not all of the guys who can't get laid are basement dwelling neckbeards with no jobs or hygiene.

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Ya know, there are loads and loads of women who can’t get laid, yet we don’t seem to hear about them buying guns and attacking random groups of men. And women who bring up unfair social norms are accused of being “man-haters”.
Another query-if the afterlife is so much better than this one, why aren’t there mass suicides to get there? When parents kill their kids to “send them home to Jesus” we consider them insane.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:07 pm UTC

PAstrychef wrote:if the afterlife is so much better than this one, why aren’t there mass suicides to get there?

Sometimes there are. You've probably seen a couple in the news over the decades.

Most religions claim that that doesn't work, though, because suicide is a sin that sends you to hell instead.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:17 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:They don't just gloss over that stuff, they are saying we need to go back to that time, while blaming all of our problems on immigrants, foreigners, and the attempt to achieve equality itself. They are consciously dismissing the concerns of the people who have been historically oppressed, and even dismiss the existence of systemic discrimination while defending discrimination as a first amendment right.

You mean like this guy?

AA racism.png
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:54 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:It feels really strange having to point this out, but: Building a wall in no way addresses illegal immigration. It's the sort of solution a five-year-old would come up with: "Global warming? Let's build giant refrigerators and cool the globe down!" Just by suggesting this, Trump and his supporters demonstrate a breathtaking lack of comprehension re: illegal immigration.


Trump has admitted to his biographer that he's essentially the same person that he was at six years old.

Which explains policy via temper tantrum.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:59 pm UTC

Incels are awful, but it takes people a moment to understand why.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/ ... al-1089200
In other news, rosenstein is stepping down when Trump's pinky-swear-he's-neutral attorney general is confirmed. Welp, there goes the Mueller case...
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:11 pm UTC

How sad is it that we are at a point where it is generally accepted that the president of our country isn't to be trusted to his word?

Even the (non-cultish) republicans I've met understand this, yet still to support him due to "policy"
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:14 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:How sad is it that we are at a point where it is generally accepted that the president of our country isn't to be trusted to his word?

Even the (non-cultish) republicans I've met understand this, yet still to support him due to "policy"

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:10 pm UTC

And you would trust anything that came out of Obama's, Bush's, Clinton's, Bush's, or Reagan's mouths at face value?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:17 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:And you would trust anything that came out of Obama's, Bush's, Clinton's, Bush's, or Reagan's mouths at face value?


Probably not, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were telling the truth, or at least had a grasp of nuance in how they answer the question.

Trump's been notable for the ... blithering audacity of his falsehoods.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:28 pm UTC

Dauric wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:And you would trust anything that came out of Obama's, Bush's, Clinton's, Bush's, or Reagan's mouths at face value?


Probably not, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were telling the truth, or at least had a grasp of nuance in how they answer the question.

Trump's been notable for the ... blithering audacity of his falsehoods.

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status ... 40/photo/1
According to this, Trump lies 22 times more often than Obama.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:29 pm UTC

Ok, yes, I will admit that "Trump tells the truth about something major" would indeed be shocking.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby orthogon » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:43 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Dauric wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:And you would trust anything that came out of Obama's, Bush's, Clinton's, Bush's, or Reagan's mouths at face value?


Probably not, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were telling the truth, or at least had a grasp of nuance in how they answer the question.

Trump's been notable for the ... blithering audacity of his falsehoods.

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status ... 40/photo/1
According to this, Trump lies 22 times more often than Obama.
I seem to remember that even that figure was kind to Trump, since many of Obama's "lies" were relatively minor inaccuracies of detail, whereas Trump on a daily basis comes out with blatant statements that are diametrically opposed to the truth.

Edit: reading the article linked from the tweet, I remembered correctly that the figures were kind to Trump, but it was because each lie is counted only once: Trump repeats the same lie over and over again even after its untruth has been pointed out to him, whereas Obama and Bush both tended to stop saying something they found out it was wrong.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:55 pm UTC

Well CU is cheating because he's combining Bush, Reagan with Clinton and Obama. Was Bush worse than Trump? No, but he had an awful reign with torture (Guantanamo, extraordinary rendition, Iraq death toll), and the corruption symbolized by Cheney. Reagan had all sorts of problems, despite how he's deified today by Republicans. Clinton was a rapist and lied a lot about it. Oh and the super predator thing. Maybe Bush senior was comparable to Obama?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Angua » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:21 pm UTC

To be honest, I don't see how this government shutdown is going to end. Trump is never going to be one to backdown, and the democrats certainly shouldn't give into his ridiculous demands, especially as they've all been elected to stand up to him (at least in part).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46818218
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:46 pm UTC

Angua wrote:To be honest, I don't see how this government shutdown is going to end. Trump is never going to be one to backdown, and the democrats certainly shouldn't give into his ridiculous demands, especially as they've all been elected to stand up to him (at least in part).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46818218


I have a suspicion that the best case scenario is Trump declares a national emergency to redirect military funds for the wall, and then it forces a crisis of conscience among Republican legislators, which , again best case scenario results in impeachment proceedings, but second-best-case results in legislation that narrows the emergency powers of the Presidency.

Note these are all best-case. Worst case: partial shutdown (or some variation thereof, like rolling blackouts or somesuch) continues for the next two years (no -WORST- case: six years), or until we can finally elect adults to government.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:49 pm UTC

Angua wrote:To be honest, I don't see how this government shutdown is going to end. Trump is never going to be one to backdown, and the democrats certainly shouldn't give into his ridiculous demands, especially as they've all been elected to stand up to him (at least in part).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46818218


I've having a hard time grasping possible outcomes as well, as Trump is unlikely to back down on a major campaign promise (no matter how politically toxic it is) as he is abhorrent to appear weak (as dictated by his "might makes right" form of policy making). In the back of my head, I hope that he continues throwing a tantrum to the detriment of people to the extent that the public at large (including a plurality of republicans) will finally turn on him and put heavy pressure on their elected representatives to do something about it. This would get the Republicans in the senate to finally get off their asses and work with the house to over-ride the president.

If this happens I expect an even bigger temper tantrum from the toddler in chief, and hopefully the process of removing the malignant growth that is Trump can properly begin.
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