Trump presidency

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
ObsessoMom
Nespresso Bomb
Posts: 553
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:28 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:50 am UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:Why would local communities that do not care about conserving species care now that foreigners have started killing them?

Spoilered for Off Topic:
Spoiler:
If I were a poor person, living close to wildlife that wealthy foreigners wanted to kill for sport, I would care a great deal if my government's armed rangers prevented me from killing that same wildlife for food, or to protect my crops, or simply to make some money to feed my family.

I would be very angry and resentful about not seeing any of the benefits from conserving that wildlife, while still being expected to bear most of the costs. What costs? Well, having my village's herds (and perhaps children) occasionally killed by big cats that we aren't allowed to kill, our fields trampled and eaten by big herbivores that we aren't allowed to eat (or harvest trophies from for resale), our prospects for farmland or building sites reduced by the government's annexation of large tracts of land as wildlife reserves, etc., etc.

Obvious economic Injustice like that pits local people against endangered species, and the endangered species often lose.

People really don't like being told that their needs are not as important as the needs of animals, or the needs of wealthy foreigners who want to kill those animals without competition from the local riffraff.

User avatar
Jumble
Posts: 1178
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:48 am UTC
Location: London(ish), UK.
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Jumble » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:27 pm UTC

Franken's inappropriate behaviour criticised by the pussy-grabber in chief.

Somewhere another irony star has just gone supernovae.
Spoiler:
Giant Speck wrote:You're a demon! DEMON!!!!

Oregonaut wrote:CURSE YOU VILLAIN!!
PhoenixEnigma wrote:Jumble is either the best or worst Santa ever, and I can't figure out which. Possibly both.

User avatar
Thesh
Made to Fuck Dinosaurs
Posts: 5532
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:55 am UTC
Location: Colorado

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:20 pm UTC

The Republican base in now saying "YEAH! AWESOME! WHAT AN AMAZING TROLL FROM OUR OBVIOUSLY A RAPIST PRESIDENT!"
Honesty replaced by greed, they gave us the reason to fight and bleed
They try to torch our faith and hope, spit at our presence and detest our goals

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 2546
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:54 pm UTC

In "Hey look over there!" news…

(Unless something has happened, to cause him to raise this particular spectre from his past counter-factual stump-speaches. But I've skimmed the news (both kinds, FakeReal and RealFake!) and yet it seems like it can only be either a random distraction thing or else that he is utterly confirmed to be a sore winner!)

User avatar
ObsessoMom
Nespresso Bomb
Posts: 553
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:28 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:13 am UTC

Meanwhile, in a dark tower in Panama, Trump's shady money-laundering continues.

jewish_scientist
Posts: 680
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:15 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby jewish_scientist » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:15 pm UTC

Jumble wrote:Franken's inappropriate behaviour criticised by the @%&^)-grabber in chief.

Somewhere another irony star has just gone supernovae.

"The former Alabama Supreme Court judge [Senator Al Franken] denies has repeatedly denied the allegations..."

He should get some kind of award for this.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 6874
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:55 pm UTC

Trump on Alabama Race: We Don't Need a Democrat in the Seat.

I don't even know what to say at this point, anymore. There are evangelicals in Alabama backing Moore. Backing him. There's a chance he might actually win the election.

I kept hoping, y'know, at some point -- people might finally say: "Hey, you know what? This is a little too much. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe I need to rethink my values. Maybe this is all a little too far." And then some piece of shit came on the news to talk about how even if Moore sexually assaulted children, it was 40 years ago -- and at least he's not a Democrat.

"Disgust" isn't even the word. Reading the news makes me physically nauseous. How the fuck did we end up in a political climate where there's a legitimate risk that a known sexual predator and pedophile will be elected to congress? Where the President and his fucking shills put political expediency above not electing a rapist? How the fuck is anyone defending this? How utterly fucking grotesque has the religious right become? Republicans? Are they all just walking, talking garbage? I don't even know, anymore. I see Newt Gingrich on the news and my immediate response is "Shut up and die of old age, you disgusting piece of shit".

I think the only thing stopping me from becoming some sort of extreme anti-theist is that there's a couple of people I know and love who are Christian, and I know this probably makes them feel even more sick than it's making me. I don't have anyone close to me like that who's a strong Republican, so maybe that's why, right now, I feel like we'd all be better off if the Republican party ceased to exist.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 5858
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:06 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Trump on Alabama Race: We Don't Need a Democrat in the Seat.
I don't even know what to say at this point, anymore. There are evangelicals in Alabama backing Moore. Backing him. There's a chance he might actually win the election.
I kept hoping, y'know, at some point -- people might finally say: "Hey, you know what? This is a little too much. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe I need to rethink my values. Maybe this is all a little too far." And then some piece of shit came on the news to talk about how even if Moore sexually assaulted children, it was 40 years ago -- and at least he's not a Democrat.
"Disgust" isn't even the word. Reading the news makes me physically nauseous. How the fuck did we end up in a political climate where there's a legitimate risk that a known sexual predator and pedophile will be elected to congress? Where the President and his fucking shills put political expediency above not electing a rapist? How the fuck is anyone defending this? How utterly fucking grotesque has the religious right become? Republicans? Are they all just walking, talking garbage? I don't even know, anymore. I see Newt Gingrich on the news and my immediate response is "Shut up and die of old age, you disgusting piece of shit".
I think the only thing stopping me from becoming some sort of extreme anti-theist is that there's a couple of people I know and love who are Christian, and I know this probably makes them feel even more sick than it's making me. I don't have anyone close to me like that who's a strong Republican, so maybe that's why, right now, I feel like we'd all be better off if the Republican party ceased to exist.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/th ... er-traits/
Evangelicals aren't stupid, they know exactly what they are getting. They're purposely being "ignorant" because they know that saving babies between the ages of -9 months to -1 months is the most important thing ever.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8876
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:14 pm UTC

Let's be fair. If you truly believe that a fetus is a life, equal to another human, then abortion is a big damn issue.

Of course, for most of them the abortion issue is a cover for the real issues; controlling women, and ensuring a continuous supply of desperate/miserable families that must depend upon a religious institution (thus the hatred of public welfare).

User avatar
freezeblade
Posts: 1098
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:11 pm UTC
Location: Oakland

Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:30 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I feel like we'd all be better off if the Republican party ceased to exist.


I don't know about that far, but I certainly think it would be better for the human race in general if the current breed of republican would age out of office, or be replaced with...just about anyone else who isn't Republican (or supports their current shittyness).
Belial wrote:I am not even in the same country code as "the mood for this shit."

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8876
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:37 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:I feel like we'd all be better off if the Republican party ceased to exist.


I don't know about that far, but I certainly think it would be better for the human race in general if the current breed of republican would age out of office, or be replaced with...just about anyone else who isn't Republican (or supports their current shittyness).


How about the constitution party, the ones who dont think the republicans are religious enough? Or the libertarians, who don't think the republicans lower taxes enough?

User avatar
freezeblade
Posts: 1098
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:11 pm UTC
Location: Oakland

Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:43 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
freezeblade wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:I feel like we'd all be better off if the Republican party ceased to exist.


I don't know about that far, but I certainly think it would be better for the human race in general if the current breed of republican would age out of office, or be replaced with...just about anyone else who isn't Republican (or supports their current shittyness).


How about the constitution party, the ones who dont think the republicans are religious enough? Or the libertarians, who don't think the republicans lower taxes enough?


Hence "Just about anyone else." The Emphasis is on "Just about"
Belial wrote:I am not even in the same country code as "the mood for this shit."

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8876
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:48 pm UTC

What percent is "just about"? I would agree with 99%, but I'm not sure about, say, 80%.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 6874
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:02 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:I feel like we'd all be better off if the Republican party ceased to exist.


I don't know about that far, but I certainly think it would be better for the human race in general if the current breed of republican would age out of office, or be replaced with...just about anyone else who isn't Republican (or supports their current shittyness).
It's hard for me to be logical about this, right now. I probably need a lot more distance from it before I can think about any of it rationally. 'I feel like we'd all be better off if the Republican party ceased to exist' was my attempt to be euphemistic about the fact that, at the moment, there's part of my brain that wants to see every person coming on TV to defend Moore or talk about 'not electing a Democrat to office' get stabbed violently in the face. And all of those people appear to be Republicans.

I realize that's not a good thing, and it's not a thing I'd actually want to see happen, but there's a small part of me that would. This entire year has put a serious strain on my desire to embrace pacifism. It's really hard to maintain those beliefs when you keep thinking, 'if someone stabbed this person in the face right now, I'd actually be okay with that'.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 5858
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:54 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
freezeblade wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:I feel like we'd all be better off if the Republican party ceased to exist.


I don't know about that far, but I certainly think it would be better for the human race in general if the current breed of republican would age out of office, or be replaced with...just about anyone else who isn't Republican (or supports their current shittyness).
It's hard for me to be logical about this, right now. I probably need a lot more distance from it before I can think about any of it rationally. 'I feel like we'd all be better off if the Republican party ceased to exist' was my attempt to be euphemistic about the fact that, at the moment, there's part of my brain that wants to see every person coming on TV to defend Moore or talk about 'not electing a Democrat to office' get stabbed violently in the face. And all of those people appear to be Republicans.

I realize that's not a good thing, and it's not a thing I'd actually want to see happen, but there's a small part of me that would. This entire year has put a serious strain on my desire to embrace pacifism. It's really hard to maintain those beliefs when you keep thinking, 'if someone stabbed this person in the face right now, I'd actually be okay with that'.

This kind of talk is how Trump got elected. Like I'm not even exaggerating. He preyed on people's desires for simplistic confident solutions. *

CorruptUser wrote:Let's be fair. If you truly believe that a fetus is a life, equal to another human, then abortion is a big damn issue.

Of course, for most of them the abortion issue is a cover for the real issues; controlling women, and ensuring a continuous supply of desperate/miserable families that must depend upon a religious institution (thus the hatred of public welfare).
You went from "they are acting rationally" to "biggest skeezy cynics" in a jiffy. Like I was just saying they are slight hypocrites, but you went way way further.

*You could argue if those voters knew he was a lying dirt-bag, and were just hoping to shake(burn) up the world.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 6874
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:13 am UTC

sardia wrote:This kind of talk is how Trump got elected. Like I'm not even exaggerating. He preyed on people's desires for simplistic confident solutions.
There is no part of my brain that thinks violence would solve any of this.

Also, I'm extremely skeptical that Trump got elected on the basis of a constituency that says things like: "I am angry, and my anger makes me want terrible things, but I recognize that this is not good -- rather, it is something I should actively reject."

I said this year strained my pacifism -- not that it gave me cause to throw it aside.

User avatar
Isaac Hill
Systems Analyst????
Posts: 506
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:35 pm UTC
Location: Middletown, RI

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Isaac Hill » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:38 am UTC

Jumble wrote:Franken's inappropriate behaviour criticised by the pussy-grabber in chief.

Somewhere another irony star has just gone supernovae.
Franken's a loser. He only groped his way to second base. Real celebrities know they'll let you go straight to third. Sad.

The Great Hippo wrote:...I feel like we'd all be better off if the Republican party ceased to exist.
That wouldn't solve the real problem, which is that 30% or so of the country is really into the way Republicans do things. That's enough to control a major political party. Even if the Republican party ceased to exist tomorrow, another party would arise doing the same thing, because that's what a sufficient number of voters demand. It'd be the Republican party in everything but name.

I hope that enough voters realize this, and that when you vote Republican, this is what you're voting for. Even if a particular Republican opposes the way the party's going, they have to go along or face a credible primary challenge. That's why the R Senators most vocal about Trump are ones like McCain, Flake, and Corker, who aren't running for reelection.

We may have reached this point in RI, already. It's a solidly D state, but the Chaffees did pretty well running as R, until 2006 or so, when Lincoln Chaffee lost his reelection bid. He was still popular enough in the state to be elected governor as an independent next election cycle, though the 3-way race makes a direct comparison impossible.
Alleged "poems"
that don't follow a rhyme scheme
are not poetry

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8876
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:47 am UTC

sardia wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Let's be fair. If you truly believe that a fetus is a life, equal to another human, then abortion is a big damn issue.

Of course, for most of them the abortion issue is a cover for the real issues; controlling women, and ensuring a continuous supply of desperate/miserable families that must depend upon a religious institution (thus the hatred of public welfare).
You went from "they are acting rationally" to "biggest skeezy cynics" in a jiffy. Like I was just saying they are slight hypocrites, but you went way way further.


The actual argument against abortion,
Spoiler:
unless couched in religious terms, is indeed more philosophically sound than the arguments in favor of abortion. The arguments in favor of abortion are generally post hoc justifications, "I want one therefore the fetus isn't actually alive due to this convoluted mental gymnastics". The issue is that the anti-abortion protesters don't actually care; it's not the reason they are out in force and would not explain why so many just happen to be religious. And no, I didn't say they were hypocrites, I said they were perfidious. But now I will say they are hypocrites of the worst form; many of the women who protest abortions will themselves get an abortion, but then go through the mental gymnastics of how their abortion is moral while all those "slut's" abortions are not. Or worse, they will go through mental hoops to argue that as long as they convince two other women to not get an abortion, they've earned the right for themselves to abort, sort of like how after a cop catches 3 muggers he gets to beat the shit out of one person of his choice.


Things this thread is not about: abortion.

User avatar
EdgarJPublius
Official Propagandi.... Nifty Poster Guy
Posts: 3556
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:56 am UTC
Location: where the wind takes me

Re: Trump presidency

Postby EdgarJPublius » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:16 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote: I feel like we'd all be better off if the Republican party ceased to exist.


Only if they were followed by the Democratic party and probably the Libertarian and Socialist parties too, however far down the list we need to go to get parties that aren't organized enough to handle national and state/local elections on their own and need to form coalitions with other political parties to get anything done.
Roosevelt wrote:
I wrote:Does Space Teddy Roosevelt wrestle Space Bears and fight the Space Spanish-American War with his band of Space-volunteers the Space Rough Riders?

Yes.

-still unaware of the origin and meaning of his own user-title

morriswalters
Posts: 6949
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:23 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Where the President and his fucking shills put political expediency above not electing a rapist?
I'm just going to remind you that a number of Democrats made just that calculation when they voted for Hillary. That would have put Bill back in the White House as first husband. There is ample evidence that he was a sexual predator. Certainly Hillary herself made that calculation when she chose to stand with him. It isn't that black and white.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 6874
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:49 am UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:Only if they were followed by the Democratic party and probably the Libertarian and Socialist parties too, however far down the list we need to go to get parties that aren't organized enough to handle national and state/local elections on their own and need to form coalitions with other political parties to get anything done.
Yeah, I recognize this is largely a problem with a deeply entrenched two party system that's worked to sell their constituency on tribalism. It's just *really* hard to look past the right-wing evangelical base who's arguing that this is perfectly reasonable, or that he's a "man of God".
morriswalters wrote:I'm just going to remind you that a number of Democrats made just that calculation when they voted for Hillary. That would have put Bill back in the White House as first husband. There is ample evidence that he was a sexual predator. Certainly Hillary herself made that calculation when she chose to stand with him. It isn't that black and white.
Hillary was always a contentious choice, and I never felt very good about the fact that I voted for her. But whatever you say about her, *she herself* wasn't facing credible accusations of sexual assault. And certainly not credible accusations involving assault of *children*.

Like, yes; I get it. Politics is all about making compromises with people you don't want to compromise with. But I thought that maybe, just maybe, we might draw the line on someone who used their political office to sexually abuse children.

Guess not. My bad for presuming any of these people had moral standards.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 5858
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:56 am UTC

Spoilered because some part of this has been consistently spoiled previously, this one didn't, and I frankly am too lazy to figure out what's supposed to be, so I'm hitting the whole thing. -ST

(Unspoiled the non-abortion bit)

morriswalters wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Where the President and his fucking shills put political expediency above not electing a rapist?
I'm just going to remind you that a number of Democrats made just that calculation when they voted for Hillary. That would have put Bill back in the White House as first husband. There is ample evidence that he was a sexual predator. Certainly Hillary herself made that calculation when she chose to stand with him. It isn't that black and white.

The Democrats are in the middle of a purge of sexual harassers right now. I'm not sure if they'll topple even Senator Franken, but Bill Clinton has been on their minds. Odds are pretty low, but this recent wave of women finally speaking out at least gives a chance at getting Bill.
Spoiler:
CorruptUser wrote:The actual argument against abortion, unless couched in religious terms, is indeed more philosophically sound than the arguments in favor of abortion. The arguments in favor of abortion are generally post hoc justifications, "I want one therefore the fetus isn't actually alive due to this convoluted mental gymnastics". The issue is that the anti-abortion protesters don't actually care; it's not the reason they are out in force and would not explain why so many just happen to be religious. And no, I didn't say they were hypocrites, I said they were perfidious. But now I will say they are hypocrites of the worst form; many of the women who protest abortions will themselves get an abortion, but then go through the mental gymnastics of how their abortion is moral while all those "slut's" abortions are not. Or worse, they will go through mental hoops to argue that as long as they convince two other women to not get an abortion, they've earned the right for themselves to abort, sort of like how after a cop catches 3 muggers he gets to beat the shit out of one person of his choice.

That's horrifying, but very very likely.

duodecimus
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue May 19, 2015 12:25 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby duodecimus » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:59 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Where the President and his fucking shills put political expediency above not electing a rapist?
I'm just going to remind you that a number of Democrats made just that calculation when they voted for Hillary. That would have put Bill back in the White House as first husband. There is ample evidence that he was a sexual predator. Certainly Hillary herself made that calculation when she chose to stand with him. It isn't that black and white.

I know a few people who decided not to vote partly because of President Clinton's infidelity. They didn't want that sort of shit attached to the first female president.

Because this looks so much better in the history books, right?

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 6874
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:17 am UTC

duodecimus wrote:I know a few people who decided not to vote partly because of President Clinton's infidelity. They didn't want that sort of shit attached to the first female president.

Because this looks so much better in the history books, right?
I'd hope it would be the allegations of sexual assault and predatory abuse of power that would give people pause -- the infidelity seems a bit minor in comparison.

Also, history books? That presumes there's a possible future where we can look back on this and *write* about it.

Dark567
First one to notify the boards of Rick and Morty Season 3
Posts: 3671
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:12 pm UTC
Location: Everywhere(in the US, I don't venture outside it too often, unfortunately)

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dark567 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:28 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:It's hard for me to be logical about this, right now. I probably need a lot more distance from it before I can think about any of it rationally. 'I feel like we'd all be better off if the Republican party ceased to exist' was my attempt to be euphemistic about the fact that, at the moment, there's part of my brain that wants to see every person coming on TV to defend Moore or talk about 'not electing a Democrat to office' get stabbed violently in the face. And all of those people appear to be Republicans.

For what it is worth most the GOP politicians in Congress has repudiated Moore and asked him to quit(although not the case with the President). Not that it really makes me like the GOP pols any better but it does seem Moore crossed a line with them. The voters on the other hand....
I apologize, 90% of the time I write on the Fora I am intoxicated.


Yakk wrote:The question the thought experiment I posted is aimed at answering: When falling in a black hole, do you see the entire universe's future history train-car into your ass, or not?

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 3977
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:03 am UTC

Spoiler:
CorruptUser wrote:The actual argument against abortion, unless couched in religious terms, is indeed more philosophically sound than the arguments in favor of abortion. The arguments in favor of abortion are generally post hoc justifications, "I want one therefore the fetus isn't actually alive due to this convoluted mental gymnastics".

I fear that replying may threaten to pull this dangerously off-topic, but the only argument for freedom to abort (nobody except your rare anti-natalist would actually argue for abortion per-se) that I've heard in an actual philosophy class was one that did not hinge on the personhood of the fetus, and it convinced me that fetal personhood really is irrelevant to the whole topic. An adult who is unquestionable a person could be (somehow) medically dependent on another adult's body, and the latter adult would have the right to say "no, it's my body and my choice" anyway. Which isn't to say that it's a choice to be made lightly or that all choices are equal, but it is still their choice to make.


Things this thread is not about: abortion.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 6874
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:07 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:For what it is worth most the GOP politicians in Congress has repudiated Moore and asked him to quit(although not the case with the President). Not that it really makes me like the GOP pols any better but it does seem Moore crossed a line with them. The voters on the other hand....
It helped, a little. The one clip of the Republican congressman retreating from a reporter down a flight of stairs while repeating "electing a Democrat would be bad for our country" over and over again really *didn't* help, but McConnell saying he believes the women did.

Of course, the natural question that follows: "You believed the women accusing Moore, but not Trump?"

I don't even know if you can call it progress, at this point. Having someone say he believes the accusers is better than the alternative, but -- it's a lot like how a burger with shit-sauce is better than a burger that is made *completely* out of shit. It's better, but I'm still not going to eat it.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 5858
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:15 am UTC

Dark567 wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:It's hard for me to be logical about this, right now. I probably need a lot more distance from it before I can think about any of it rationally. 'I feel like we'd all be better off if the Republican party ceased to exist' was my attempt to be euphemistic about the fact that, at the moment, there's part of my brain that wants to see every person coming on TV to defend Moore or talk about 'not electing a Democrat to office' get stabbed violently in the face. And all of those people appear to be Republicans.

For what it is worth most the GOP politicians in Congress has repudiated Moore and asked him to quit(although not the case with the President). Not that it really makes me like the GOP pols any better but it does seem Moore crossed a line with them. The voters on the other hand....

To be fair, Moore is tied with a really liberal DEMOCRAT in ALABAMA, which is all sorts of messed up. So yea, pedophilia cost Moore a lot of votes. Trump won Alabama 62% to 34%, and Moore took that margin and pedophiled his way into a 50/50 tie. We'll know more in a week or two if it will continue to drop or revert back. Who knows, maybe Moore was an even bigger pedophile then we currently think. He might like his child porn photos somewhere...

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8876
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:32 am UTC

Abortion
Pfhorrest wrote:
Spoiler:
CorruptUser wrote:The actual argument against abortion, unless couched in religious terms, is indeed more philosophically sound than the arguments in favor of abortion. The arguments in favor of abortion are generally post hoc justifications, "I want one therefore the fetus isn't actually alive due to this convoluted mental gymnastics".

I fear that replying may threaten to pull this dangerously off-topic, but the only argument for freedom to abort (nobody except your rare anti-natalist would actually argue for abortion per-se) that I've heard in an actual philosophy class was one that did not hinge on the personhood of the fetus, and it convinced me that fetal personhood really is irrelevant to the whole topic. An adult who is unquestionable a person could be (somehow) medically dependent on another adult's body, and the latter adult would have the right to say "no, it's my body and my choice" anyway. Which isn't to say that it's a choice to be made lightly or that all choices are equal, but it is still their choice to make.

Spoiler:
I actually came to that argument myself without ever having someone in philosophy class talk about it. My version was "what if you wake up and a random homeless person is attached to your liver, do you have the right to pull the plug, esp if being attached to him causes you severe damage to your body?"

The answer depends on whether or not you agreed to have the person attached, and whether situations change and it wasn't what you initially agreed to. Basically, if the pregnancy was planned or not, and if there are serious illnesses. But ultimately, I came to that argument while searching for a reason that abortion is moral.

Personally, I've become an anti-nihilist, so whatever produces the society we'd best want to live in, well, that's my moral compass. In most cases, abortions produce a "better" society in that there is less crime and poverty. The fetus generally harms society, or at least the mother/family, so I see no obligation to support it.

Things this thread is not about: abortion.

morriswalters
Posts: 6949
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:38 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Guess not. My bad for presuming any of these people had moral standards.
I appreciate that you feel strongly about this. But you can't walk away from it, she would have put a sexual predator in the White House. do you doubt that is what Bill is? Where was all your outrage then? And your presumption of their moral standards is premature. It will only be true if he wins. It wouldn't surprise me if he did. But he hasn't yet. It upsets you that they have a different moral landscape than you do. Moralists always seem to forget that.
sardia wrote:The Democrats are in the middle of a purge of sexual harassers right now. I'm not sure if they'll topple even Senator Franken, but Bill Clinton has been on their minds. Odds are pretty low, but this recent wave of women finally speaking out at least gives a chance at getting Bill.
It will never happen. And Franken should resign. But the Clinton's are done. And I'm glad. Having said that I hope that this indicates some fundamental change in attitudes about a women's right to be free from sexual harassment. But I'm not hopeful.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 8876
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:45 am UTC

I always thought that the rules of statutory rape should be expanded to include things like the Boss and Secretary, or Professor and Student, or any other case where one person has so much power over another that informed consent is too difficult to determine. Especially an employer and intern, whether it was Bill Clinton or Gary Condit.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 6874
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:41 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:I appreciate that you feel strongly about this. But you can't walk away from it, she would have put a sexual predator in the White House.
I had a choice between a woman married to a sexual predator and a man who is a sexual predator. I picked the woman.

I don't blame anyone who said "Nope, not voting for either". But your moral equivalency argument is bullshit -- and if you can't see why, I don't think I have the patience to explain it to you.
morriswalters wrote:do you doubt that is what Bill is? Where was all your outrage then?
You know nothing about me -- nevermind my sense of outrage.
morriswalters wrote:And your presumption of their moral standards is premature. It will only be true if he wins. It wouldn't surprise me if he did. But he hasn't yet. It upsets you that they have a different moral landscape than you do. Moralists always seem to forget that.
My presumption of their moral standards is not "premature". Anyone who looks at Roy Moore and says "Well, at least he's not a Democrat" is either childishly ignorant, a moral lunatic, or both.

There is no being coy, no moral relativism, no "maybe they just have different sense of right and wrong" to hide behind. No. Fuck you. I try to stay away from moral absolutism, but as far as ethical axioms go, "Don't support the serial sexual assaulter who used his position of authority to threaten, abuse, and rape children" seems like a pretty fucking good one.

I am extraordinarily comfortable calling anyone who disagrees a piece of human fucking garbage.

Leovan
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:31 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Leovan » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:48 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Anyone who looks at Roy Moore and says "Well, at least he's not a Democrat" is either childishly ignorant, a moral lunatic, or both.

It's not child rapist vs Democrat, it's one man who has abused a dozen or so teens 30+ years ago vs another who wants to murder thousands of babies if we elect him. It's not just political expedience (well for Trump it might be. This sets a bad precedent for him), it's saving lives.
Just curious, but did Moore actually rape someone? Worst I heard was "made me touch his underwear". Obviously this is inexcusable, but rape IS another step or two further.

I would never vote Moore even before these allegations, but I do understand the argument.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 5858
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:13 am UTC

Leovan wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Anyone who looks at Roy Moore and says "Well, at least he's not a Democrat" is either childishly ignorant, a moral lunatic, or both.

It's not child rapist vs Democrat, it's one man who has abused a dozen or so teens 30+ years ago vs another who wants to murder thousands of babies if we elect him. It's not just political expedience (well for Trump it might be. This sets a bad precedent for him), it's saving lives.
Just curious, but did Moore actually rape someone? Worst I heard was "made me touch his underwear". Obviously this is inexcusable, but rape IS another step or two further.
I would never vote Moore even before these allegations, but I do understand the argument.
This is 100% true for evangelicals. They aren't even being hypocritical about it either, they have always gone for policy options over moral values. They just have the PR teams emphasize their moral values.
Leovan wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Anyone who looks at Roy Moore and says "Well, at least he's not a Democrat" is either childishly ignorant, a moral lunatic, or both.

It's not child rapist vs Democrat, it's one man who has abused a dozen or so teens 30+ years ago vs another who wants to murder thousands of babies if we elect him. It's not just political expedience (well for Trump it might be. This sets a bad precedent for him), it's saving lives.
Just curious, but did Moore actually rape someone? Worst I heard was "made me touch his underwear". Obviously this is inexcusable, but rape IS another step or two further.
I would never vote Moore even before these allegations, but I do understand the argument.

He movie*raped a girl in a car. There was crying and everything. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... story.html
Spoiler:
One night when she was 16, Moore offered to drive her home, she said, but instead parked behind the restaurant and touched her breasts and locked the door to keep her inside. She said he squeezed her neck while trying to push her head toward his crotch and tried to pull her shirt off.
"I thought that he was going to rape me," she said.
Moore finally stopped and as she got out of the car, he warned that no one would believe her because he was a county prosecutor, Nelson said. She said her neck was "black and blue and purple" the next morning and she immediately quit her job.


*The only kind of rape that small c conservative culture thinks is legitimate. Date rape, abuse of power, and drugging girls w/ alcohol doesn't cut it.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 6874
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:24 am UTC

Leovan wrote:It's not child rapist vs Democrat, it's one man who has abused a dozen or so teens 30+ years ago vs another who wants to murder thousands of babies if we elect him.
Like, so what -- if his opponent was extremely anti-abortion, they'd all suddenly accept the accusations made against Moore? What sort of person treats an accusation as true only when it's politically convenient to do so? How is that in any way morally consistent (nevermind morally coherent)?

I have yet to hear a single one of his supporters say: "Yes, he probably did sexually assault children, but he's anti-abortion, so he's my guy". Besides, what's the argument here? Protect all the babies so they can grow up and get sexually assaulted by Roy Moore?

If the only way to stop abortions in Alabama is to elect a serial child predator to Congress, then you know what? Maybe God's trying to tell you something. Maybe you deserve to lose. Or maybe you should go find a better fucking candidate.

For me to accept this argument, I must accept that his supporters are even worse than I thought.

Leovan
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:31 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Leovan » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:44 am UTC

I completely agree with finding a better candidate, but I think it's too late for that now, can't legally put someone else on the ballot (except as a write in). Last I heard the plan was to elect Moore, then get the Senate to shut him out, making the governor select a new (Republican) candidate. I'm sure a lot of people voting for Moore would be hoping for that outcome. Whether the Senate would actually do that or not...
I don't know any supporters of Moore personally, so I haven't heard many excuses but if I understand correctly, whether the accusations are true or not is irrelevant. I didn't say "accused of abusing a dozen or so teens", I accept it as a given and it's STILL better to elect a past rapist than enable a murderer. And Roy Moore is one guy. Making abortion legal would kill more children than if Moore raped a child every day for the rest of his life.
It's a horrible logic but it makes perfect moral sense... But again, option three would be better, and I'm sure a lot of former Moore supporters will be staying home so they don't have to make the choice.
sardia wrote:He movie*raped a girl in a car. There was crying and everything. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... story.html

Hadn't heard of that. Thanks for the reference.

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 3977
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:13 am UTC

Leovan wrote:vs another who wants to murder thousands of babies if we elect him.

Pretty sure none of the candidates plan on carrying out any abortions themselves, and also the outcome of this one election isn't going to make any direct difference in whether anyone else is permitted to carry out abortions either.

So it's someone who (allegedly) has actually committed sex crimes but would say bad things about a current policy that (conservatives think) permits thousands of babies to be "murdered" (even though he couldn't actually stop that from happening all by himself),

vs someone not accused of any such crimes who would not say bad things about that current policy but also would make no difference in that policy all by himself.

Is having someone badmouth the current abortion policy with no direct effect on it worth supporting an actual child molester?
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 6874
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:20 am UTC

Leovan wrote:Last I heard the plan was to elect Moore, then get the Senate to shut him out, making the governor select a new (Republican) candidate. I'm sure a lot of people voting for Moore would be hoping for that outcome. Whether the Senate would actually do that or not...
People are supporting him. And not in the "We'll elect him then replace him with someone better" way. Rather, they're doing it in the "OBVIOUSLY, the accusers are liars paid off by the Jews" way. Or the "WHO CARES it was 30 years ago" way. Or, my personal favorite: The "Mary was a teenager when Joseph married her" way.

I'm not Christian -- and even I feel insulted by that last one.
Leovan wrote:It's a horrible logic but it makes perfect moral sense... But again, option three would be better, and I'm sure a lot of former Moore supporters will be staying home so they don't have to make the choice.
It doesn't make moral sense. Even if the guy's pro-choice, electing him isn't going to suddenly undo all the work pro-lifers have put in. There are other ways to oppose abortion. Take all the money you were going to burn on Moore's campaign and put it somewhere else. Start a massive write-in campaign. Reject the notion that someone like Roy Moore represents your values. Try working with the Democrat to see if you can convince him to at least compromise on abortion. Be the party that opposes abortion and sexual assault. Take a fucking stand.

Roy Moore is not the only thing standing between his opponent and a pile of dead babies. And even if he was -- I think it would say a lot about the evangelical right if the only way they can get what they want is by electing this pile of burning human excrement.

I mean, let me be honest here: Part of this is just me struggling to reconcile my desire to respect and love those I disagree with over the fact that THIS man is apparently who Alabama evangelicals think is fit to represent them. If this is their idea of leadership -- if this is their idea of a 'man of God', a 'servant of the Lord' -- then, to quote Ser Davos: "Your Lord is evil."

morriswalters
Posts: 6949
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby morriswalters » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:49 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I mean, let me be honest here: Part of this is just me struggling to reconcile my desire to respect and love those I disagree with over the fact that THIS man is apparently who Alabama evangelicals think is fit to represent them. If this is their idea of leadership -- if this is their idea of a 'man of God', a 'servant of the Lord' -- then, to quote Ser Davos: "Your Lord is evil."
You sound like a Christian. Fuck that. Unlike you, I don't have pretensions of pacifism. So I don't get my hate on when things don't go the way I would like. We'll see who is what come December 12.
The Great Hippo wrote:I had a choice between a woman married to a sexual predator and a man who is a sexual predator. I picked the woman.
Hippo, Hillary had choices available to her that most women don't. She didn't have to carry Bill's baggage. If Bill was along for the ride it was because she saw value in keeping him close. Despite his proclivities. However this has become pointless.

Trebla
Posts: 357
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:51 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Trebla » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:34 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Hillary had choices available to her that most women don't. She didn't have to carry Bill's baggage. If Bill was along for the ride it was because she saw value in keeping him close. Despite his proclivities. However this has become pointless.


That's pretty pessimistic... "She loved him despite his flaws and crimes" seems much more reasonable. I'm also not sure what choices Hillary had that "most women don't"... Her choices were to stay with him or leave him. Are those not the same choices any person has when their spouse does something wrong? Or do you mean most women aren't victims of infidelity? Nobody HAS to carry the baggage of their spouse, that's kind of a big part of what it means to love someone, though.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests