Trump presidency

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CorruptUser
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:16 pm UTC

@Izawwl
The question really boils down to, even if the parks are opened up to mining and we ignore the environmental issues because screw you rivers and fish, does it even make economic sense to mine? While ores are where they are, mining in the US is more expensive than in, say, Africa, and granted that you have to ship the ores to the smelters, I'm also under the impression that smelters are just as dirty and low paying as the mines are. We lost our steel industry for that reason.

But eh, this is more conjecture than core belief on my part, so if you strongly disagree I wouldn't fight you on it.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:35 pm UTC

The thing about Capitalism is that regardless of what a company can do, if it can make more money doing something else, it will. That, of course, assumes competent and non-lazy corporate management, but still. If it doesn't make economic sense to a mining company, it's not going to bother.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:38 pm UTC

The only real advantage to having the mines and factories in the US is that they don't tend to be seized or blown up, which leads to some seriously repugnant yet hilarious results where terrorism and communism ends up helping the American middle class.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:03 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Trump Admin Will Protect Health Workers Who Refuse Services On Religious Grounds

So as a gay Jewish immigrant I can be refused healthcare service now on three different grounds. Supposedly citing freedom of religion as the cause. I'm sorry - if your morals impact your work go to a different line of work. Nothing guarantees that you get to be a nurse if you want to. If you're a cop you don't suddenly get to implement bible law as opposed to written law, no matter how much Roy Moore would like you to do that.

I rarely put a lot of stock in NPR, and this story sounds ridiculous, but I can't see anything else in it that screams "obvious BS." That being the case, this would be one point where I would absolutely stand against the Trump administration. I voted for him, and I'm generally pleased with the direction things have been going, but if this story is being accurately represented (and again, I can't see a reason to believe it's not, beyond how completely stupid the idea is), I absolutely oppose the administration on it.

NPR wrote:"Never forget that religious freedom is a primary freedom, that it is a civil right that deserves enforcement and respect," said Roger Severino, the director of HHS's Office for Civil Rights, at a ceremony to announce the new division.

I completely agree with the assessment, but not it's apparent application in this context. Religious freedom should never extend to the "right" to let someone suffer and/or die.

I support a Christian bakery's religious objection to making a cake for a gay wedding primarily because of how easy it is to find a bakery that will be happy to take your money. I wouldn't support the decision to refuse to bake a birthday cake (for example) because the customer is gay. The first is a legitimate religious objection, but the second is straight-up discrimination. It may not matter to the argument since I don't operate a bakery, but I am a conservative, white Christian, and if I did operate a bakery, I would have no problem or religious objection to making a cake for a gay wedding.

To the original point, if I were a doctor, and I refused treatment to anyone while hiding behind a shield of "religious objection," I would be absolutely sick with myself. There's no way to justify it.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:16 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:I rarely put a lot of stock in NPR, and this story sounds ridiculous, but I can't see anything else in it that screams "obvious BS." That being the case, this would be one point where I would absolutely stand against the Trump administration. I voted for him, and I'm generally pleased with the direction things have been going, but if this story is being accurately represented (and again, I can't see a reason to believe it's not, beyond how completely stupid the idea is), I absolutely oppose the administration on it.


Yes, if you look at only the things that you like, and dismiss every horrible thing coming out of the administration as "Fake News", then you can keep saying that you are generally pleased and refuse to hold anyone accountable; but really, that just makes you a selfish nihilist. In the end, you still support an administration that is willing to consider most of the American people their enemy, and that just makes you a traitor.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:17 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:I rarely put a lot of stock in NPR,

They literally link directly to the HHS.gov website for the department, you ridiculous excuse for a human being. If you object to this so much - why not call your senator and tell them how you feel?

I support a Christian bakery's religious objection to making a cake for a gay wedding primarily because of how easy it is to find a bakery that will be happy to take your money.

Says the man who has almost certainly never been refused service in his life.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby bantler » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:19 pm UTC

It's generally good policy to avoid ingesting things prepared by people who hate you.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:29 pm UTC

bantler wrote:It's generally good policy to avoid ingesting things prepared by people who hate you.
sounds like a bad business decision to purposefully make a bad cake
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby bantler » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:30 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:
bantler wrote:It's generally good policy to avoid ingesting things prepared by people who hate you.
sounds like a bad business decision to purposefully make a bad cake

But good cake would be a sin...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:32 pm UTC

Only if it's devil's food.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:35 pm UTC

@yablo - Hi, employee at HHS, I can tell you with a certainty that Price was an abominable piece of shit who was trying to gut the system while smiling and insisting that it was rain, and not piss.
Yablo wrote:I support a Christian bakery's religious objection to making a cake for a gay wedding primarily because of how easy it is to find a bakery that will be happy to take your money.
I'm not sure what fantasy world you live in where everyone across America has equal access to all manner of bakeries, but this smacks of a whole lot of "it's not hard to find an abortion and if women in Kansas want one, what's stopping them from traveling across state lines to get one?".

Yablo wrote:To the original point, if I were a doctor, and I refused treatment to anyone while hiding behind a shield of "religious objection," I would be absolutely sick with myself. There's no way to justify it.
Ah, gotcha, so, we're drawing lines in Yablo's moral sand? Only matters of life and death, but those that matter RIGHT NOW, i.e., insurance policies being rejected on the grounds of not wanting to insure those godless gays are alright?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:47 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Yes, if you look at only the things that you like, and dismiss every horrible thing coming out of the administration as "Fake News", then you can keep saying that you are generally pleased and refuse to hold anyone accountable; but really, that just makes you a selfish nihilist. In the end, you still support an administration that is willing to consider most of the American people their enemy, and that just makes you a traitor.

Seriously? I would think the rest of my post would show that I don't "dismiss" everything as fake news, and that I don't refuse to hold anyone accountable. The fact that I'm not up in arms over the things you think I should be doesn't make me any more of a traitor than it makes you for being up in arms over the things I think you shouldn't be. It just means we have a difference of opinion and ideology.

Zohar wrote:
Yablo wrote:I rarely put a lot of stock in NPR,

They literally link directly to the HHS.gov website for the department, you ridiculous excuse for a human being. If you object to this so much - why not call your senator and tell them how you feel?

I support a Christian bakery's religious objection to making a cake for a gay wedding primarily because of how easy it is to find a bakery that will be happy to take your money.

Says the man who has almost certainly never been refused service in his life.


Slow down, there. I'm agreeing with you, and you insult me. I realize the article linked to the HHS website, and believe it or not, I also followed the link.

And you would be right that I've rarely been refused service. That doesn't make my view any less valid. If I ordered a cake, and for any reason I was refused, I would go to another bakery. I would also not ever support the first bakery again. I would also encourage others not to support the first bakery. I don't see how that makes me a horrible person.

bantler wrote:It's generally good policy to avoid ingesting things prepared by people who hate you.

Exactly. And while I don't believe any real Christian should have a religious objection to it, not all Christians feel that way. Regardless, no one should hate someone else for sexual orientation, race, religion, political party ...

Izawwlgood wrote:Ah, gotcha, so, we're drawing lines in Yablo's moral sand? Only matters of life and death, but those that matter RIGHT NOW, i.e., insurance policies being rejected on the grounds of not wanting to insure those godless gays are alright?

That's not even close to what I said.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:13 pm UTC

With all seriousness, why is it acceptable for a Christian baker to not provide services to customers on religious grounds, but not for a doctor to do the same with patients?

If your answer has anything to do with differentiating the needs of customers and patients, yes, that was my point. You are drawing arbitrary lines in the moral sand, especially when you start considering things like 'customers of pharmacies' or 'people seeking marriage licensees'.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby arbiteroftruth » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:25 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:With all seriousness, why is it acceptable for a Christian baker to not provide services to customers on religious grounds, but not for a doctor to do the same with patients?

If your answer has anything to do with differentiating the needs of customers and patients, yes, that was my point. You are drawing arbitrary lines in the moral sand, especially when you start considering things like 'customers of pharmacies' or 'people seeking marriage licensees'.


Drawing lines, yes. Arbitrary, no.

Different things have different value in terms of trying to be a fair society. Religious freedom has a certain amount of value, access to wedding cakes has a certain amount of value, and access to various medical procedures has a certain amount of value. It's easy to take the position that religious freedom is more important than cake and less important than life-or-death medical care. The area in between naturally gets complicated and fuzzy if one takes that position. So what?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:28 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:Seriously? I would think the rest of my post would show that I don't "dismiss" everything as fake news, and that I don't refuse to hold anyone accountable. The fact that I'm not up in arms over the things you think I should be doesn't make me any more of a traitor than it makes you for being up in arms over the things I think you shouldn't be. It just means we have a difference of opinion and ideology.


You support the destruction of American institutions and the suppression of American voters purely for personal gain. And yes, you did dismiss the report, and no you don't hold your administration accountable. You were willing to support four years of non-stop Benghazi investigations for no reason other than that you hate Clinton, and now you support an authoritarian administration that wants to end the free press and sees Nazi terrorists as the enemy of their enemy, while they seek to stack the courts and law enforcement with people who will only use their powers to round up and arrest liberals. So yes, you are a traitor, and no you are not a decent person.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Koa » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:54 pm UTC

So that's what the genuine worries of concerned citizens looks like.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby speising » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:05 pm UTC

seriously, the "religious freedom" tenet is massively misused here. in my opinion, religious freedom means you have to respect the religion of *others* and aren't allowed to refuse to serve someone of a religion you don't like.
it doesn't mean your own believes are more important than other people's health.
it's pretty much the oppoaite of what is claimed here.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:08 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:With all seriousness, why is it acceptable for a Christian baker to not provide services to customers on religious grounds, but not for a doctor to do the same with patients?

If your answer has anything to do with differentiating the needs of customers and patients, yes, that was my point. You are drawing arbitrary lines in the moral sand, especially when you start considering things like 'customers of pharmacies' or 'people seeking marriage licensees'.

arbiteroftruth wrote:Drawing lines, yes. Arbitrary, no.
Different things have different value in terms of trying to be a fair society. Religious freedom has a certain amount of value, access to wedding cakes has a certain amount of value, and access to various medical procedures has a certain amount of value. It's easy to take the position that religious freedom is more important than cake and less important than life-or-death medical care. The area in between naturally gets complicated and fuzzy if one takes that position. So what?

This is what I was trying to say, with the added distinction that it’s much more reasonable to consider a religious objection to a wedding cake than to a birthday cake. And whether you see it as relevant or not, I don’t believe it’s fair to refuse to make a cake for a gay wedding. I also don’t believe it’s fair to force someone to do it if they (mistakenly or not) believe it’s against their religion.

Thesh wrote:You support the destruction of American institutions and the suppression of American voters purely for personal gain. And yes, you did dismiss the report, and no you don't hold your administration accountable. You were willing to support four years of non-stop Benghazi investigations for no reason other than that you hate Clinton, and now you support an authoritarian administration that wants to end the free press and sees Nazi terrorists as the enemy of their enemy, while they seek to stack the courts and law enforcement with people who will only use their powers to round up and arrest liberals. So yes, you are a traitor, and no you are not a decent person.

What? I’m not sure where you got any of that, but you seem to be projecting beliefs on me which I don’t hold.

I don’t support the destruction of American institutions. I don’t support the suppression of American voters for any reason, and certainly not for personal gain. I most certainly did not dismiss the report; in fact, I said that if the reporting was accurate, I completely oppose the administration on the point.

I may have mentioned the Benghazi investigations at some point, and if so, I never said I supported them because I hate Clinton. I never said I hate Clinton, for that matter. I don’t agree with her politics, I don’t believe she’s trustworthy, and I don’t believe she should ever hold a position of authority, but no, I don’t hate her. And my support of the Benghazi investigations, since you mention it, has solely to do with my belief that the entire situation was botched, and no one involved is willing to be accountable.

I don’t believe the Trump administration wants to end the free press. I do believe the press as a whole needs to be more accountable for its reporting and should do its best to be apolitical, but that isn’t going to happen any time soon.

Appointing conservatives to judgeships shouldn’t be surprising. Obama appointed liberals. Sure, Trump’s appointments will rule with a conservative interpretation of the Constitution, just like Obama’s appointments do with a liberal interpretation. That doesn’t mean conservative judges will be going out looking to oppress and punish liberals.

So, no, I am not a traitor. And no, your personal opinion of me (based as it seems to be on a completely false model) is of no consequence. I don’t mean for that to sound either defensive or antagonistic. I’d feel exactly the same if you had a high opinion of me with no factual basis.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:12 pm UTC

Koa wrote:So that's what the genuine worries of concerned citizens looks like.


I literally see my life and the life of millions of other Americans in danger because of this terrible administration who is supported by a party that has shown it will do whatever it takes to stay in power, and voters who will not stand up for anyone but themselves. This is exactly the type of shit that Trump ran on, and this is fucking scary to a lot of people. Republicans have even resorted to calling themselves "Real Americans" to let people know that they don't consider most people in this country to be their countrymen, and I'm fucking sick of it.

I haven't seen a single instance of Republicans standing up against anything unless they see it as harming them, and they are willing to overlook all of their so-called morals to support Trump because they think it will benefit them. There is absolutely no indications that Republicans will stand up against anything at all if they perceive it as benefiting them, including genocide. They already joke about nuking San Francisco - they think it's funny because they really, truly, do believe that if millions Americans were killed the country would be a better place.

So if you don't have anything to add, fuck off.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:19 pm UTC

Some of you guys are making liberals look terrible. Please stop doing that. I enjoy my liberal label and would rather my opponents not assume I'm crazy just because I'm left of center. Thanks.

Yablo might have some unpopular views around these parts, but screaming about it doesn't help anyone. He's here, let's talk. If you need to scream about it, go do it somewhere else. Preferably somewhere where there are a lot more than one Trump supporter to hear you instead of just drowning us in this echo chamber.

Yablo wrote:This is what I was trying to say, with the added distinction that it’s much more reasonable to consider a religious objection to a wedding cake than to a birthday cake. And whether you see it as relevant or not, I don’t believe it’s fair to refuse to make a cake for a gay wedding. I also don’t believe it’s fair to force someone to do it if they (mistakenly or not) believe it’s against their religion.

I think you're absolutely right, provided we're just talking about a private citizen. I assume this hypothetical baker is in fact a company of some kind though, correct? Operating a bakery? If it's a company, even just a company with a single employee, that company should not have the freedom to refuse service.

PS: Thanks for continuing to post here. I appreciate seeing the alternative viewpoint, though I hope you'll be open to changing your mind as well.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby arbiteroftruth » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:21 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Republicans have even resorted to calling themselves "Real Americans" to let people know that they don't consider most people in this country to be their countrymen, and I'm fucking sick of it.


I agree. That's right up there with calling people on the other side traitors.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:31 pm UTC

arbiteroftruth wrote:
Thesh wrote:Republicans have even resorted to calling themselves "Real Americans" to let people know that they don't consider most people in this country to be their countrymen, and I'm fucking sick of it.


I agree. That's right up there with calling people on the other side traitors.


On one hand, you have people that are actually traitors being called traitors, and on the other hand you have people who are actually Americans being told they aren't really Americans to justify why they deserve to suffer. Sorry, not even close to the same thing.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby arbiteroftruth » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:34 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
arbiteroftruth wrote:
Thesh wrote:Republicans have even resorted to calling themselves "Real Americans" to let people know that they don't consider most people in this country to be their countrymen, and I'm fucking sick of it.


I agree. That's right up there with calling people on the other side traitors.


On one hand, you have people that are actually traitors being called traitors, and on the other hand you have people who are actually Americans being told they aren't really Americans to justify why they deserve to suffer. Sorry, not even close to the same thing.


Then it would seem your issue is not with the specific tactic of describing the other side with exclusionary language, but simply with the fact that they're wrong in general, and consequently all tactics used to support their wrongness are wrong by extension.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:37 pm UTC

My issue is that people like him make me fear for my life, because they are willing to support an administration who wants to sabotage all of the laws and institutions that have protected my freedom in the past, and that sees liberals as their enemy - Trump literally nominated a judge who had no trial experience, purely because he hated people like me.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:45 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:They already joke about nuking San Francisco - they think it's funny because they really, truly, do believe that if millions Americans were killed the country would be a better place.


Even further, I've seen many of them joke about the same thing with the entirely of California as if it weren't the largest economy in the united states among states (output of $2.6 trillion in 2016*), with the largest Agricultural industry of any other state ($42.6 billion dollar industry that generates at least $100 billion in related economic activity, making it more than twice the size of any other state's agriculture industry**). The country needs us more than we need them, and I'm frankly sick of the Trumpettes, and to a lesser extent, GOP's ignorant and shitty attitude. Keep writing us off and see what happens. Our day will come, and when it does, they better hope we treat them better than they treat us.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:45 pm UTC

SDK wrote:Some of you guys are making liberals look terrible. Please stop doing that. I enjoy my liberal label and would rather my opponents not assume I'm crazy just because I'm left of center. Thanks.

Yablo might have some unpopular views around these parts, but screaming about it doesn't help anyone. He's here, let's talk. If you need to scream about it, go do it somewhere else. Preferably somewhere where there are a lot more than one Trump supporter to hear you instead of just drowning us in this echo chamber.

Yablo wrote:This is what I was trying to say, with the added distinction that it’s much more reasonable to consider a religious objection to a wedding cake than to a birthday cake. And whether you see it as relevant or not, I don’t believe it’s fair to refuse to make a cake for a gay wedding. I also don’t believe it’s fair to force someone to do it if they (mistakenly or not) believe it’s against their religion.

I think you're absolutely right, provided we're just talking about a private citizen. I assume this hypothetical baker is in fact a company of some kind though, correct? Operating a bakery? If it's a company, even just a company with a single employee, that company should not have the freedom to refuse service.

PS: Thanks for continuing to post here. I appreciate seeing the alternative viewpoint, though I hope you'll be open to changing your mind as well.

For what it's worth, some of my very best friends are die-hard liberals. Some are other-than-straight, and many are non-white. We don't always agree, but we do always debate. And to your post script, while I do hold many of my opinions very closely and strongly, I can assure you the vast majority of my opinions are very much open to change. I can also assure you that a well-reasoned argument presented in a civil manner is far more likely to change my opinion than a vitriolic attack on my perceived character and position.

Regarding the hypothetical baker, yes, I was meaning a business dealing in baked goods rather than, for example, a neighbor with an oven or a soccer mom helping out a bake sale. I, personally, wouldn't refuse service to anyone without some reasonable provocation. Come into my store drunk and shouting expletives, I'll ask you to leave before I call the police to handle it. Come into my store, kiss your same-sex (or inter-racial, or whatever) partner, and show off your engagement rings, and I'll ask you to describe exactly what sort of cake you'd like.

I do believe it's unfortunate that a business would refuse to make a cake for a gay wedding on religious grounds, but I honestly see it as only hurting the business. That hypothetical couple can take their business elsewhere, tell their story to anyone who will listen, and even stage a protest against the policy. Threatening the children of the owner (which apparently actually happened in at least one case) is not a reasonable response regardless of how offended you might be or how justified you are in being that offended. Having a court force the business to make the cake anyway is also, in my opinion, unacceptable, assuming the business really does have an objection on religious grounds. If they're just being dicks, I feel there's an important distinction.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:19 pm UTC

@Freezeblade

Who is more important to the economy; the manufacturer, or the person buying the product? California is utterly dependent upon the rest of the country to sell goods and services and movies and food to. Just as the rest of the country is utterly dependent upon California to provide those things. And California is utterly dependent upon the rest of the country to provide a steady stream of engineers and scientists and wannabe actors, unless you think everyone in silicon valley and Hollywood was born there.

We could argue minutia, but at best California needs the rest of the US only equally as much as the US needs California.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:25 pm UTC

Yablo wrote:I support a Christian bakery's religious objection to making a cake for a gay wedding primarily because of how easy it is to find a bakery that will be happy to take your money.


Nah. It's still discrimination, whether it's for a cake or a heart transplant. Deciding who to serve based on who they are is discrimination; refusing to sell a cake to a gay couple is no different than refusing to sell one to an interracial couple, or a disabled couple, or any other couple based on who they are. Discrimination isn't made okay just because the thing or service being withheld isn't life threatening, or is easy to get someplace else.

I wouldn't support the decision to refuse to bake a birthday cake (for example) because the customer is gay. The first is a legitimate religious objection, but the second is straight-up discrimination.


They both still amount to the same thing, refusing service to someone based on who they are, which is discrimination. Whether it's for a birthday or a wedding should make no difference.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:37 pm UTC

The bakery thing...

On one hand I'd agree with Yablo that the bakers refusing to make cakes for gay couples is just hurting their own business. In theory at any rate the 'free market' will take care of that by redistributing profits away from the discriminating establishment.

In practice however the discriminating establishment isn't losing that much business that way (even generous estimates put homosexuals at around 10% of the population). They may lose homosexual-friendly heterosexual-couple orders out of sympathy, but they would be equally (or more) as likely gain orders from anti-homosexual couples. I think at best these factions might zero each other out, but that's at best. I don't have numbers, but I'd think conservative types going for traditional wedding trappings may outnumber cake orders from less traditional couples (who are more likely to forgo classical wedding cake for other options, or skip the ceremonial stuff completely). Depending on how that sorts out an anti-homosexual protest of an establishment may cost them more than potential pro-homosexual business.

The above is all supposition and hypothetical on my part, I'm sure there's numbers out there but they're probably incredibly complex (differing attitudes in regions served by different bakeries and all) and more than I'm willing to dig in to (being that I'm just some random jackass on the internet). The point however is that it's far from clear that the bakers are really losing out by not serving homosexual couples.

--

Bakeries that serve wedding cakes strike me as analogous to the Woolworth's lunch counter. It's a food service, It's not necessary for life (such as the aforementioned hospital), and a great deal of people in the south believed (or at least rationalized their bigotry) as the religious belief that dark-skinned people were such because they were "stained with sin", making segregation supported by religion and faith.

Racial segregation, even with government intervention, is still a thing. That African-Americans make up a majority in many communities in the south has had little 'free market' impact on establishments that you can still get the shit kicked out of you for going in to with the wrong skin color. Hell Apartheid in South Africa went strong with only a minority (10%-20% of the population IIRC) being able to patronize 'white' establishments. If "They're only hurting themselves by not letting (the outsiders) in to buy stuff" was an effective argument Apartheid it should have collapsed shortly after being established.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:38 pm UTC

cphite wrote:They both still amount to the same thing, refusing service to someone based on who they are, which is discrimination. Whether it's for a birthday or a wedding should make no difference.

I do agree that it should make no difference, and to me, personally, it doesn't make a difference. But forcing someone to violate some tenet of their religion is not okay either.

And I think Dauric makes a strong argument. Losing (or turning away) the patronage of a minority isn't likely to hurt the business enough to change their minds. And I do believe discrimination on any grounds (other than something like the belligerent drunk example) is wrong. Not everyone does believe that, and that's something to fight to change. I fully support that. Also, sorting through legitimately held religious beliefs and religious beliefs used as an excuse for bad behavior is difficult at best, but if it can be done, legitimately held religious beliefs need to be protected and defended.
Last edited by Yablo on Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:47 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:44 pm UTC

Mi dos pesos (the following isn't worth the full customary US$0.02):

Yablo, I've been kind of pleasantly surprised by you since I noticed your existence (somewhere earlier in this thread, I think, where I posed a Bender laughing gif). I haven't been reading things you've written very closely because frankly I'm just exhausted all the time these days and don't have the mental energy to spend on it, but on a cursory glance you sounds like someone calm and reasonable and open to civil discussion, which seems very incongruous to me with your superlative support of Trump, who neither seems like that himself, nor do his usual supporters. If I had the mental and emotional resourcing of my youth, I'd love to have a longer discussion with you to try to understand exactly how and why it is someone who superficially seems like a pretty okay guy can so strongly endorse someone like Trump.

(FWIW, the incongruity I perceive in you is specifically about Trump support, not conservativism in general. I've had plenty of civil, productive conversations with more reasonable conservatives, but in my experience such reasonable conservatives either reject Trump as well, or else tip their hand and cease seeming so reasonable in order to continue supporting him).

Thesh, I generally love your presence here on the forum and mostly agree with pretty much all of your positions, but it really does seem like you're projecting your (quite justified IMO) anger at all conservatives at Yablo specifically. And, like SDK said, that kinda makes me feel like you're making "our side" look bad. I think somewhere way way earlier in this thread, like a year ago, or maybe over in the Antifa thread, I said something (to gmalivuk at the time, I think) to the effect of "I would prefer it if the false caricatures of liberals that conservative trolls use to attack liberalism remained false caricatures without any truth to them". Basically, please don't be what Trumpers think all liberals are. Your anger is more than justified but misdirecting it can be counterproductive.

About the gay wedding cake thing: where do you draw the line between a business and a private citizen? If a Nazi I know asks me to bake him a swastika cake, I (as a private citizen) can refuse, right? What if he offers me money for it? I can still refuse right? What if I'm well-known in my social circles to be a good amateur baker, and people who know me occasionally ask me to bake them cakes, and pay me for it? Can I still refuse the Nazi? What if I ask them to spread the word and pass along anyone else who needs a cake to me, and they pass the Nazi on to me? What if I have an ad on a poster board at the local coffee shop offering to bake cakes for money, and the Nazi sees that? What if I have a website? Or a storefront? Can I still refuse the Nazi? What if I have employees? Can I tell them not to accept any jobs for cakes with Nazi imagery on them?

If you still say yes, is it because they're Nazis, and not because of any structural issue (i.e. not because at some point or another it is/isn't okay to refuse for any reason at all)? If so, what if NAMBLA wanted a cake instead? They're still advocating crimes I guess, but what if a (straight) BDSM sex dungeon wanted a cake? Can I (or my business) refuse them just because I think that's a gross of offensive kind of sexual behavior? What if it were a gay BDSM sex dungeon instead? What if it were just an ordinary gay couple getting married and not doing anything weird, besides being gay, which this hypothetical version of me might (counterfactually) find as gross and offensive as the BDSM sex dungeon?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Koa » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:53 pm UTC

@Thesh It is dangerous and sickening and all that. But I would never attribute the actions of those in power to the desires of those who support them so crudely, especially with hyperbole. It comes off as nonsense to the supporter and they stop listening, at best. I instead probe their beliefs and point out the deception or ignorance in the disconnect between what they desire and what is actually happening.

Like for instance,
Yablo wrote:I don’t believe the Trump administration wants to end the free press. I do believe the press as a whole needs to be more accountable for its reporting and should do its best to be apolitical, but that isn’t going to happen any time soon.

Apolitical in this sense probably means "tell both sides of the story", which is usually a noble endeavor up until the point when one side is completely fabricated and the general public can't tell anymore. The fabricated story is often more appealing or entertaining in a sense of creating fantasy or drama, and it's compounding to create an alternative worldview. This is where the disconnect is occurring more generally.

And perhaps since agreeing with the religious discrimination I'd bring up the travel ban to probe beliefs. Seems a better approach to me than taking out your emotions on supporters.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:07 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I haven't been reading things you've written very closely because frankly I'm just exhausted all the time these days and don't have the mental energy to spend on it, but on a cursory glance you sounds like someone calm and reasonable and open to civil discussion, which seems very incongruous to me with your superlative support of Trump, who neither seems like that himself, nor do his usual supporters. If I had the mental and emotional resourcing of my youth, I'd love to have a longer discussion with you to try to understand exactly how and why it is someone who superficially seems like a pretty okay guy can so strongly endorse someone like Trump.

(FWIW, the incongruity I perceive in you is specifically about Trump support, not conservativism in general. I've had plenty of civil, productive conversations with more reasonable conservatives, but in my experience such reasonable conservatives either reject Trump as well, or else tip their hand and cease seeming so reasonable in order to continue supporting him).
Same (re: conservatism). I think conservative voices are valuable, and there are conservatives I've had incredibly productive discussions with -- discussions which have forced me to challenge and re-evaluate my views.

None of those voices, right now, have spoken in support of Trump. Perceiving Trump's influence on America -- politically, legislatively, socially, and diplomatically -- as anything but a disaster is actually a pretty good litmus test to tell the difference between conservatives who are actually serious about their values and conservatives who aren't.

I get that the appearance of civility and open-ness creates in us a sense of obligation to treat someone's points as credible; let me remind you that Yablo thinks Mueller is a political hack-job for the Democrats and that Trump is the greatest President we've had in thirty years. To believe these things -- while also actually being open to having your mind changed by evidence, civil discourse, and an open exchange of ideas -- is absurd.

It's like coming upon a man in 2018 who tells you the Earth is flat, then insists that he's open to evidence to the contrary. No, he isn't. No matter how polite he is about it -- no matter how much calmness and civility he exhibits regarding his claim -- there is nothing you can say that will change his mind. You can tell, because it's 2018 and he still thinks the earth is flat.

If you made it to 2018 and still think Trump is the greatest President we've had in 30 years -- you are either extraordinarily ignorant, a crackpot, or both.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:17 am UTC

Yablo wrote:... legitimately held religious beliefs need to be protected and defended.


On this point I have to disagree.

It does not matter how legitimately held a religious belief is if that belief is deleterious to society and/or harmful to other individuals.

There are an unfortunate number of people claiming to be Muslims that legitimately believe that infidels need to be killed. They believe fervently enough to sacrifice their own lives to accomplish this task.

I think there are a great many valuable tenets in many religions. "Do unto others as you would have done unto you." is pretty common across most belief systems, and even holds up to an atheistic though experiment on how to behave to others. Not every belief or tenet however is as valuable, or even benign.

Actively harmful tenets, beliefs that work to dismantle society rather than build it up: Those should absolutely not be protected, no matter how genuinely, legitimately, or faithfully their adherents believe them.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:28 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Yablo, I've been kind of pleasantly surprised by you since I noticed your existence (somewhere earlier in this thread, I think, where I posed a Bender laughing gif). I haven't been reading things you've written very closely because frankly I'm just exhausted all the time these days and don't have the mental energy to spend on it, but on a cursory glance you sounds like someone calm and reasonable and open to civil discussion, which seems very incongruous to me with your superlative support of Trump, who neither seems like that himself, nor do his usual supporters. If I had the mental and emotional resourcing of my youth, I'd love to have a longer discussion with you to try to understand exactly how and why it is someone who superficially seems like a pretty okay guy can so strongly endorse someone like Trump.

Believe me, I totally get the mental energy to spend thing. Even a calm and rational conversation between people with differing opinions can be exhausting at times. I don't agree with everything Trump says and does, and I fully admit lots of Trump supporters do. Lots of Hillary, Obama, and Bernie supporters are the same way, but there are enough in all camps who don't blindly follow.

(FWIW, the incongruity I perceive in you is specifically about Trump support, not conservativism in general. I've had plenty of civil, productive conversations with more reasonable conservatives, but in my experience such reasonable conservatives either reject Trump as well, or else tip their hand and cease seeming so reasonable in order to continue supporting him).

Before the Primary debates, I laughed at Trump's bid like most others did, but after I heard him in the first Primary debate, I liked a lot of the things he said. I didn't like the way he said the things he said, but he seemed to have a conviction that the others didn't. He seemed to know what he believed in a crowd of candidates who were either still trying to decide what belief would get them the most votes or had already decided their beliefs would be the opposite of what Trump's were. That's not to say none of the others had legitimate platforms; I actually liked Ted Cruz and Ben Carson well enough. But Trump eclipsed them all. I felt like he owned the stage.

Since his inauguration, he's followed through on a lot of his promises because he does believe (most of) what he said. He's slowly learning that he has to play nicely with others to get things done, but so far, (in my opinion) he's managed to do a lot of good and undo a lot of bad. No one is perfect, and I really wish he'd knock it the hell off with the petty Twitter fights and media feuds.

Thesh, ... Your anger is more than justified but misdirecting it can be counterproductive.

I'm not saying the anger is unjustified. I'm saying that through a liberal lens, it is justified, and through a conservative lens, it's not so much. There is far too much bad blood, anger, and misinformation on both sides of the spectrum. Adding to it won't help, but maybe an honest attempt at understanding can lead to a sort of "agree to disagree, and then go get a beer" situation.

About the gay wedding cake thing: where do you draw the line between a business and a private citizen? If a Nazi I know asks me to bake him a swastika cake, I (as a private citizen) can refuse, right? What if he offers me money for it? I can still refuse right? What if I'm well-known in my social circles to be a good amateur baker, and people who know me occasionally ask me to bake them cakes, and pay me for it? Can I still refuse the Nazi? What if I ask them to spread the word and pass along anyone else who needs a cake to me, and they pass the Nazi on to me? What if I have an ad on a poster board at the local coffee shop offering to bake cakes for money, and the Nazi sees that? What if I have a website? Or a storefront? Can I still refuse the Nazi? What if I have employees? Can I tell them not to accept any jobs for cakes with Nazi imagery on them?

This is a great question, or series of them, actually. And until you have a business license stating that you can make cakes for money, the answer pretty much has to be 'yes.' Once you are officially in the business of making and selling cakes, it merits attention. I think, even then, the answer is 'yes.'

If you still say yes, is it because they're Nazis, and not because of any structural issue (i.e. not because at some point or another it is/isn't okay to refuse for any reason at all)? If so, what if NAMBLA wanted a cake instead? They're still advocating crimes I guess, but what if a (straight) BDSM sex dungeon wanted a cake? Can I (or my business) refuse them just because I think that's a gross of offensive kind of sexual behavior? What if it were a gay BDSM sex dungeon instead? What if it were just an ordinary gay couple getting married and not doing anything weird, besides being gay, which this hypothetical version of me might (counterfactually) find as gross and offensive as the BDSM sex dungeon?

First, I would honestly like to thank you for asking these questions, because I hadn't considered them. At least not in depth.

My initial feeling on it is that it's more because of the Nazi imagery than because the customer is a Nazi. NAMBLA is another distasteful organization, but again, if it's not for a NAMBLA event and doesn't have offensive imagery, it probably shouldn't be refused. Straight or gay, a BDSM sex dungeon that wants a cake should get it without trouble if it doesn't have explicit imagery or shape. A gay couple should never be refused a cake on the grounds of being gay.

I think it comes down to this: Refusing service should never come down to who a customer is. Refusing service on the grounds of the form of the cake should be fine. Refusing service on the grounds of honest religious objection (which can be very difficult to prove or justify) should be allowed, not because of the intended purpose of the cake so much, but because it's not okay to force anyone to go against their religious beliefs.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:34 am UTC

My personal take on how the separation of church and state should be handled is that the state should basically ignore the existence of religion in all of its proceedings. The claims or dictums of this or that religion should never be a reason either for or against any state action. So the state should not make laws because some religion says something ought to be the law, nor should it ban anything just because it's the practice of some religion, nor should it make exceptions to its laws because those laws happen to interfere with some religious practice. The state should not say that you must worship such-and-such deity in so-and-so way, nor ban any particular kind of worship just because it's practiced by the "wrong" religion, but if the state has banned (or mandated) something in general for secular, irreligious reasons, saying "but my religion runs counter to that law!" doesn't make you exempt from it.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:40 am UTC

I personally vote that the bakery should have the right to refuse the gay wedding cake, but not refuse the wedding cake. That is, the baker can't refuse to make a standard wedding cake for a "wedding" and the couple then add the plastic guys on top... hey wait can you have a cake covered in plastic army dudes? Focus... The Nazi could also get a cake, but the baker shouldn't be forced to make it in the shape of a swastika or anything.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:44 am UTC

Dauric wrote:
Yablo wrote:... legitimately held religious beliefs need to be protected and defended.


On this point I have to disagree.

It does not matter how legitimately held a religious belief is if that belief is deleterious to society and/or harmful to other individuals.

Okay. I do agree with you there, and I didn't mean to imply that any belief that is actually harmful to another is okay. Though, I do think that the refusal of service at a bakery fails to adequately meet the "deleterious to society and/or harmful to other individuals" criterion. As I've said before, if I were refused service for any reason, I would be upset, never patronize the establishment again, and discourage others from patronizing. I would then find a business that did want me as a customer. I most certainly wouldn't threaten the owner's family, and I highly doubt I'd take the matter to court.

There are an unfortunate number of people claiming to be Muslims that legitimately believe that infidels need to be killed. They believe fervently enough to sacrifice their own lives to accomplish this task.

Absolutely, and this is a case that without a doubt meets the above criterion. Killing someone for their beliefs is unacceptable, and so is killing someone for your own beliefs.

I think there are a great many valuable tenets in many religions. "Do unto others as you would have done unto you." is pretty common across most belief systems, and even holds up to an atheistic though experiment on how to behave to others. Not every belief or tenet however is as valuable, or even benign.

Actively harmful tenets, beliefs that work to dismantle society rather than build it up: Those should absolutely not be protected, no matter how genuinely, legitimately, or faithfully their adherents believe them.

Again, I think we agree here. I think the difference really seems to be in the degree of importance people place on any given tenet and the degree of severity of any given offense in the name of those tenets.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:50 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I personally vote that the bakery should have the right to refuse the gay wedding cake, but not refuse the wedding cake. That is, the baker can't refuse to make a standard wedding cake for a "wedding" and the couple then add the plastic guys on top... hey wait can you have a cake covered in plastic army dudes? Focus... The Nazi could also get a cake, but the baker shouldn't be forced to make it in the shape of a swastika or anything.

Agreed. The intended purpose of the cake is, quite frankly, none of the bakery's concern. The form they're being asked to create is.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:04 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:About the gay wedding cake thing: where do you draw the line between a business and a private citizen? If a Nazi I know asks me to bake him a swastika cake, I (as a private citizen) can refuse, right? What if he offers me money for it? I can still refuse right? What if I'm well-known in my social circles to be a good amateur baker, and people who know me occasionally ask me to bake them cakes, and pay me for it? Can I still refuse the Nazi? What if I ask them to spread the word and pass along anyone else who needs a cake to me, and they pass the Nazi on to me? What if I have an ad on a poster board at the local coffee shop offering to bake cakes for money, and the Nazi sees that? What if I have a website? Or a storefront? Can I still refuse the Nazi? What if I have employees? Can I tell them not to accept any jobs for cakes with Nazi imagery on them?

If you still say yes, is it because they're Nazis, and not because of any structural issue (i.e. not because at some point or another it is/isn't okay to refuse for any reason at all)? If so, what if NAMBLA wanted a cake instead? They're still advocating crimes I guess, but what if a (straight) BDSM sex dungeon wanted a cake? Can I (or my business) refuse them just because I think that's a gross of offensive kind of sexual behavior? What if it were a gay BDSM sex dungeon instead? What if it were just an ordinary gay couple getting married and not doing anything weird, besides being gay, which this hypothetical version of me might (counterfactually) find as gross and offensive as the BDSM sex dungeon?


Or, in an example that's apparently actually happened, how about a black wedding planner refusing to do a plantation wedding?


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