Trump presidency

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KnightExemplar
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:19 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:If a rally or protest goes beyond the point of mere speech, and there's not appropriate police response to defend the victims, then in that case absolutely defensive violence is warranted. I'm not saying anyone should lie down and take a beating, just not throw the first punch.


The White-supremacist side showed up with shields and sticks, and used those sticks to beat people.

Which is why the rally was canceled and deemed illegal by 11:30am, before they even officially began marching. The Governor called a "state of emergency" IIRC. (Which usually gives him power to deploy the national guard). Shit was pretty bad.

Pfhorrest wrote:EDIT: And as to how Trump seems so stupid and undirected and yet managed to win the presidency anyway, I think the answer is that he is "shrewdly" (transparently to my eyes but apparently it's effective on many others) being noncommittal and unprincipled so as to let the people who want to like him like him for whatever their reasons without actually having to agree with their reasons himself. I don't know if he actually supports the Nazi ideology, but he seems very happy to have the Nazi ideologues support him, and so he tries not to alienate them. He also wanted the left to support him so he promised the Moon with regards to healthcare with no intention of actually delivering on it. He will say or not say whatever is required with no regard to consistency so long as it brings him approval. He is 100% bullshit all the time, in other words. Which means he often bullshits in his own mouth and blurts out something transparently stupid to anyone with two brain cells to rub together, because he didn't really think before speaking he's just constantly spinning bullshit from the top of his head, but on the whole that's effective enough to win him the presidency.


We all know that already. The problem is that Trump's bullshit is encouraging white supremacists to pull this sort of shit.

This white-supremacy rally would not have taken place during Obama's Presidency. There's a reason why they came out and have a huge amount of energy today. Trump's laziness is making the problem worse. Trump enjoys their energy because it gives Trump the power to advance the Wall and ban Transgenders from the military. They enjoy Trump because he's basically taking their side on the issue.

So the real question is: what advice do you have to counter-protesters who want to mitigate the growing number of White Supremacists who are now marching in this era of Trump? As far as I'm concerned, we've got 3 more years before we have a serious chance of removing Trump from office, but if Trump builds off of this energy and wins again in 2020, then we'll have to tolerate this even longer.

TL;DR: Its too late to "ignore the Nazis away". It may have worked 5 years ago, but its not going to work under current political conditions.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Belial » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:29 pm UTC

Something tells me that if Trump wins in 2020, we're going to have to do more than tolerate this, and the number of years becomes wildly unpredictable.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:31 pm UTC

Belial wrote:
Quercus wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:why can't Nazis beat the crap out of me because they "know" they are right?

They can, and they do.


Yeah, I guess I'm confused about why you're under the impression that they're waiting for us to give them permission. It's their entire ideology! They are always already into that! It's kindof the reason they trigger the paradox of tolerance!


You think that they're the ONLY ones that want me and mine dead? These clowns make up just a tiny fraction of the people that think the US would be better off de-jewed.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Isaac Hill » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:00 pm UTC

iamspen wrote:I recall reading in history books a time when most people ignored Nazi rallies until it was too late.
I recall the same thing. I also recall conservatives since then complianing about appeasement, and the left being too soft to nip Nazis in the bud. Now, conservatives are complaining about the left going too far. Maybe conservatives will counter-protest the next Nazi rally and show the left exactly how it's done.


Credible threats of violence generally aren't protected as free speech, and it's irrational to read declaring oneself a Nazi, and marching with an angry mob of other Nazis, as anything else. Especially when you add flaming torches and weapons more dangerous than pitchforks. If you're going to sport a Nazi insignia, make Nazi salutes, and shout Nazi chants, other people have the right to take your threats seriously.

The difference between Nazis and other groups mentioned in the "who can we punch" discussion is that Nazis exist only to threaten and inflict violence on others. It's not OK to punch environmentalists because some of them bomb SUV dealerships; most of them want to peacefully protect the environment. It's not OK to punch pro-lifes because some them them bomb clinics; most of them want to peacefully eliminate abortion. Nazis want to eliminate Jews and POCs, which is impossible to do peacefully.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:19 pm UTC

One could say that forcing a pregnancy to come to term against the person's will is an act of violence, too, but yeah.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:05 am UTC

Liri wrote:One could say that forcing a pregnancy to come to term against the person's will is an act of violence, too, but yeah.

Reminds me that I was debating putting this in the Darker Side thread. It doesn't really belong in tjis thread, instead, but it has a strange resonance with what you just said, so...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:18 am UTC

Soupspoon wrote:
Liri wrote:One could say that forcing a pregnancy to come to term against the person's will is an act of violence, too, but yeah.

Reminds me that I was debating putting this in the Darker Side thread. It doesn't really belong in tjis thread, instead, but it has a strange resonance with what you just said, so...

I know what you're linking without looking. It's pretty horrific.
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Postby morriswalters » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:51 am UTC

This society is anything but tolerant. Is there any group of people that somebody doesn't hate? What alternate reality did Popper inhabit? I'm having major cognitive dissonance. Tolerant as respects to who? I can say a lot of good and bad thing about my home, but tolerant wouldn't hit any of my top 100's. It sounds very similar to an argument for restricting Muslim immigration. Yeah I was right. They use Popper as justification.. He wrote that in 45. Consider his context. They were just getting ready to release Asian American citizens from internment camps. And we had just finished a world war, fighting, wait for it. Nazi's. It's funny that people refuse to consider context when they throw quote bombs. He was a Kiwi at that point. +1. I'll put it on my must read list. See where he was really sitting.

Do you by any chance see any parallels with Empty Suit and NK Empty Suit. Ole Empty Suit thinks he mite oughta be able to drop a conventional bomb or three, you cain't be to tolerant of them folks. Just shake them there rascals up a bit. Let em know, that we ain't gonna take no sh*te....yeah..right.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:08 am UTC

The website of the National Review, a conservative publication, was quick to debunk and decry the false Pershing religious war crime story that Trump tweeted today as a model for dealing with Muslim terrorists.

In one tweet Trump spread fake history, libeled an American hero, and signaled a willingness – even eagerness – to commit war crimes. That’s conduct unbecoming the lowliest officer in the military. Coming from the commander-in-chief, it’s a complete disgrace.


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Re: Trump presidency

Postby speising » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:13 pm UTC

In other news, there was a terrorist attack in Barcelona with 13 dead.

Ever classy, the Daily Trump offers this helpful advice:
Study what General Pershing of the United States did to terrorists when caught. There was no more Radical Islamic Terror for 35 years!

referring back to what he said in 2016
“They were having terrorism problems just like we do,” Trump said. “And he caught 50 terrorists who did tremendous damage and killed many people. And he took the 50 terrorists, and he took 50 men, and he dipped 50 bullets in pig’s blood.”

He claimed that Pershing then “had his men load his rifles and he lined up the 50 people, and they shot 49 of those people. And the 50th person, he said, ‘You go back to your people and you tell them what happened.’”

In 2016, Trump claimed such mass executions ended the Islamic insurgency for a quarter-century. “Twenty-five years, there wasn’t a problem,” he said. In his new tweet he revised that estimated upward to 35 years.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Raidri » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:17 pm UTC

speising wrote:In other news, there was a terrorist attack in Barcelona with 13 dead.

Ever classy, the Daily Trump offers this helpful advice:
Study what General Pershing of the United States did to terrorists when caught. There was no more Radical Islamic Terror for 35 years!

referring back to what he said in 2016
“They were having terrorism problems just like we do,” Trump said. “And he caught 50 terrorists who did tremendous damage and killed many people. And he took the 50 terrorists, and he took 50 men, and he dipped 50 bullets in pig’s blood.”

He claimed that Pershing then “had his men load his rifles and he lined up the 50 people, and they shot 49 of those people. And the 50th person, he said, ‘You go back to your people and you tell them what happened.’”

In 2016, Trump claimed such mass executions ended the Islamic insurgency for a quarter-century. “Twenty-five years, there wasn’t a problem,” he said. In his new tweet he revised that estimated upward to 35 years.

For completeness one should add that the story was fake last year and still is fake now.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby speising » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:20 pm UTC

But it shows the kind of people trump admires.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:14 pm UTC

speising wrote:But it shows the kind of people trump admires.

Simplistic power fantasies? It reminds me of Tom Clancy novels. Like the one where executing terrorists on the plane somehow meant that hijacking would stop. Iirc, his novels ended with the president's son going around assassinating "criminals" using warrantless wire tapping while carrying presigned pardon papers . It sounded more noble in the book.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ivnja » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:39 pm UTC

Rex Tillerson just announced this morning that the State Department will be looking to increase diversity in its hires. I was driving at the time of the press conference and was listening to Laura Ingraham, who was unbelievably the least noxious of the three talk radio shows I was picking up, and she went to a live listen-in of the presser just as Tillerson was starting to talk about it. One thing he said was that moving forward, State would be requiring itself to consider at least one minority applicant for each (major?) position, for the purpose of at least getting a sense of the developing talent pool outside of their traditional hires. She called this affirmative action in the State Department and asked what happened to hiring the best people - just because they want to make sure they look for more diverse candidates. This is not quotas here.

Right wing talk radio hosts say stupid hateful things all the time (fuck you, Rush, and the white supremacy apologetics I'm listening to you spout as I type this), but I mention this one mostly because Ingraham's name was in the picture during the transition as a strong potential for a White House communications office position and has continued to be floated for that.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby speising » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:47 pm UTC

Forgive my foreigners ignorance, but is affirmative action considered a bad thing now?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:51 pm UTC

speising wrote:Forgive my foreigners ignorance, but is affirmative action considered a bad thing now?

Pretty sure it always has been by some circles.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:57 pm UTC

Especially the "Bell Curve" cultists.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:58 pm UTC

speising wrote:Forgive my foreigners ignorance, but is affirmative action considered a bad thing now?
yeah by racists
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:02 pm UTC

Washington Post is announcing that Steve Bannon is no longer part of the White House.

There doesn't seem to be a story yet however. I can't wait to hear the details.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:03 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:03 pm UTC

Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Liri » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:08 pm UTC

I can't remember if it was the weird phone call Bannon just gave to that publication or somewhere else where he said that he never expected to last more than a year. I'm kinda hesitant that it'll cause the right-wing backlash that many have predicted.
There's a certain amount of freedom involved in cycling: you're self-propelled and decide exactly where to go. If you see something that catches your eye to the left, you can veer off there, which isn't so easy in a car, and you can't cover as much ground walking.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:21 pm UTC

Oddly, the majority of Americans favor AA for women and the disabled but not racial minorities.

Well not that oddly. Anyone could become disabled, and most Americans are either female or in a relationship with one, but it's not like you expect to wake up one day and discover you are black.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:38 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I don't know if he actually supports the Nazi ideology, ...
... or just says a lot of things that give everyone the impression he does:


Search for phrase reveals:
Spoiler:
Walker's World: Far-right rises in U.K. April 17, 2006

The BNP, founded by a British Nazi supporter and traditionally the home of a racist fringe and skinheads ...

"That's something we have never seen before, in all my years. Even when people voted BNP, they used to be ashamed to vote BNP. Now they are not," Hodge told Britain's Daily Telegraph.

BNP spokesman Phil Edwards claimed the Rowntree report reflected his party's own warnings on voters' alarm at Britain's shift towards a multicultural society, saying Britain had changed from a "racially homogeneous society into one where the cultures are quite alien. That does add quite a lot of tensions and stresses. What we are trying to do is preserve the traditional culture and identity of Britain."

"Can you just sit there and watch as our country is being ripped apart by the forces of multiculturalism? You are not alone," says its new local campaign for the local elections. "Many good people, just like yourself are afraid to make too many comments publicly because it is seen as a sin to make mention of one's fears and concerns."


You can bleach the leopard platinum blonde, but the same spots grow back in.

I apologise to all leopards, all felids and all friends and family of felids, for making that comparison. Leopards are arseholes, sure, but they're not that bad.

... and then, further down the results page, I found a cesspit called Topix. Even after they purged a lot of comments ...
Should Whites Pay Blacks for Slavery?

Make the check payable to NEGRO!

You would think , that if they are so proud of being African , they would return to that country and look for the Blacks that sold them into slavery . The civil war wasn't just over slavery . The Blacks should have gained their freedom and then sent back to Africa .

They owe me for a job poorly done.

Im all for equality for the blacks-I think everyone should own 3.

No the jews should pay for black slavery!!!
And the jew should pay for all of the suffering that the world has lived under in this banking monopoly and this global government that has created debt in the world - not least in 3rd world countries.
Fedral reserve, world bank, UN and WTO are all jewish run organizations - parasitic organization that leaches on productivity on white people - and keeps 3rd world countries all the way down by millitarism payed off by unwilling white people.

We will pay them back for slavery when they stop committing so much crime.
While they're at it please tell then to straighten out the white people who act like them too

Africans, or, HE-boons and SHE-boons as I commonly call them...are dangerous. Period.

Can you NAME ONE all African neighborhood that's bad?
OR
Why is EVERY all African neighborhood, bad?
Coincidence? NO.
OR
Why is it that if you drive thru an ALL African area such as N STL, that you see no Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Koreans, Lations, Jews or Italians?
Because they can't stand Africans either!! He'll Africans can't even stand Africans!
I guess the world is against them for NO reason huh!

I guess I better stop before I get the ever so terrifying "RACIST CARD" pulled on me (BY A WHITE PERSON) for speaking the TRUTH!
Ya. It's typically a "white individual" that will pull out the "RACIST CARD" so that's NO ONE pulls it on them, so they can say they defend Africans...

No but they still owe us for the boat ride


If you go back in time and shoot Hitler, he'll get replaced by someone more competent. You'd really have to go back in time and carpet-bomb a Nuremberg rally.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby orthogon » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:58 pm UTC

Liri wrote:
speising wrote:Forgive my foreigners ignorance, but is affirmative action considered a bad thing now?

Pretty sure it always has been by some circles.

It depends what they mean by "consider". If they mean always inviting an ethnic minority candidate to interview, then I'm pretty sure that would be illegal in the UK. Shortlisting candidates is part of the selection process, and you'd be explicitly discriminating based on a characteristic that you aren't allowed to take into account. I'd be surprised if it were legal anywhere in the EU.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Quercus » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:18 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
Liri wrote:
speising wrote:Forgive my foreigners ignorance, but is affirmative action considered a bad thing now?

Pretty sure it always has been by some circles.

It depends what they mean by "consider". If they mean always inviting an ethnic minority candidate to interview, then I'm pretty sure that would be illegal in the UK. Shortlisting candidates is part of the selection process, and you'd be explicitly discriminating based on a characteristic that you aren't allowed to take into account. I'd be surprised if it were legal anywhere in the EU.


I'm not sure - guaranteed interview schemes for disabled people are common in the UK (I qualify for some of them), and that is superficially also discriminating based on a protected characteristic.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:20 pm UTC

So who should Trump hire to replace Ban on?

Dick Spencer?
Milo Yulanpoloozapolasus?
Alex Jones?
David Duke?
Matt Drudge?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:26 pm UTC

Boris Johnson

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Angua » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:29 pm UTC

I don't think Boris would go for it, but Nigel Farage would surely be up for it.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby orthogon » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:30 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:
orthogon wrote:
Liri wrote:
speising wrote:Forgive my foreigners ignorance, but is affirmative action considered a bad thing now?

Pretty sure it always has been by some circles.

It depends what they mean by "consider". If they mean always inviting an ethnic minority candidate to interview, then I'm pretty sure that would be illegal in the UK. Shortlisting candidates is part of the selection process, and you'd be explicitly discriminating based on a characteristic that you aren't allowed to take into account. I'd be surprised if it were legal anywhere in the EU.


I'm not sure - guaranteed interview schemes for disabled people are common in the UK (I qualify for some of them), and that is superficially also discriminating based on a protected characteristic.

Seems you're right. At least, the Equality and Human Rights Commission themselves have such a scheme. Interesting that disability would be treated differently to other protected characteristics.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:56 pm UTC

In California (such a bastion of backward conservativism, I know), affirmative action is illegal in any government-funded organization (including private businesses accepting any government contracts).
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:16 pm UTC

http://www.newsweek.com/breitbart-decla ... xit-652245

Oh this gonna be good. I was expecting that Bannon / Breitbart was going to stay pro-Trump after the firing. But I'm (pleasantly) surprised that Mr. Trump is beginning to be branded a "liberal cuck" as they say.

Its not quite that bad yet... but but these first moves from far-right news webpages demonstrate that Bannon is going to go down with a fight, and hurt Trump on his way out. I honestly was expecting things to go more smoothly for Trump, so I really am surprised. Trump really is isolating himself here and breaking apart the closest thing to a coalition he had...
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Quercus » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:20 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:http://www.newsweek.com/breitbart-declares-war-trump-after-bannons-white-house-exit-652245

Oh this gonna be good. I was expecting that Bannon / Breitbart was going to stay pro-Trump after the firing. But I'm (pleasantly) surprised that Mr. Trump is beginning to be branded a "liberal cuck" as they say.

Not quite... but these first moves from far-right news webpages demonstrate that Bannon is going to go down with a fight, and hurt Trump on his way out. I honestly was expecting things to go more smoothly for Trump, so I really am surprised.

Oh, please, pretty please let the US right tear itself apart over Trump.

Edit: speaking seriously, I'm not actually sure if that would be a good thing or not, but it sounds like a good thing??

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:23 pm UTC

I've been wanting the Republicans to break their unholy alliance with the dominionists for years now.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:26 pm UTC

I think it would be an awesome thing if the US right self-destructed and, like the Democratic Republicans that preceded them after the death of the Federalist party, the Democrats split into something more like the Greens and something more like the Libertarians.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:42 pm UTC

Yeah, that sounds awful.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ivnja » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:47 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Yeah, that sounds awful.

What does / which post is this a response to?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:53 pm UTC

The Greens are a bunch of loons who, while supporting action on the environment, veer into pseudoscientific territory and are generally worse for the environment than simply not existing.

Libertarians hold to a childish view of the world generally based on the works of Ayn Rand, either denying the basic reality that we once had a system close to what they advocate and changed for a good reason, or are under the naive belief that if we were to return to such a horrid system it would be them in control and not the current people in control now.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:55 pm UTC

ivnja wrote:
Thesh wrote:Yeah, that sounds awful.

What does / which post is this a response to?


The one immediately before me. Libertarians and Greens are the least realistic people in the country.
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Pfhorrest
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:06 pm UTC

I did say "more like", as in, in the direction of: Greens are generally more socialist and egalitarian, Libertarians are generally more, well, libertarian, and I'd like to see the extreme poles of the political spectrum be extreme liberty and extreme equality instead of moderately-both and fuck-you-I-got-mine like we have now, so that the default compromise is moderately-both, and the best case scenario is maximally-both. I wouldn't want either side of that divide to win entirely.

In other words, I want something like today's Democrats to be seen as centrist, with people advocating for further improvements on that in different but complementary directions, while keeping each others' extremes in check.
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CorruptUser
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:22 pm UTC

But the current positions they occupy are lunacy and different lunacy. That's like saying the USSR should've moved more towards Nazism because they were far left and needed to move further right.


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