Trump presidency

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:55 pm UTC

You are aware that 2016 and 2017 were different years, right?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:57 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:You are aware that 2016 and 2017 were different years, right?


Quite aware. So aware in fact that I also noticed that the NY times reference said that it was the lowest in 25 years. Which can not be possible if the years before were up 10% but the rate only dropped ~3%. That would mean it is still among the highest in the study range.

Not only was the overall crime rate down 5.1 percent over the previous year, violent crime (down 2.4 percent) and property theft (an 11.8 percent decrease) both dropped.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:59 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Those dudes are in Mexico, and were from Guatemala. It is unlikely that whatever situation they were fleeing in Guatemala applies to Mexico.
Yeah because there are no international gangs anywhere or anything.


Do you have any particular evidence that they were in danger? The article does not mention any imminent danger. This seems like pure subjectivity on your part.

The children are essentially just being used as levers for a more open immigration policy/non enforcement of existing law. And, of course, the current situation is of bi-partisan creation.
The children are explicitly being used as political levers by the administration that has separated 2000 of them from their parents in the past six weeks. The fact that Democrats are also trying to pass legislation in response is not really the important thing here.


The administration is just enforcing the law and prosecuting illegal entry. The options they have are "don't prosecute" or "separate the families".

And apparently camps of children were not a moral crisis when a democrat was the president. That's the hypocrisy here.

Really, it's not the government separating the kids from anyone
Flat-out denying reality doesn't change it.


You've quote sniped this out of context. It's referring specifically to children who arrive without any adults. Counting those as "families separated by the government" is flat out wrong.

it's the government attempting to take care of them.
Holding thousands of children in overcrowded prisons covered with Trumpist propaganda is not attempting to take care of them.

If you want to discuss the merits of bringing dogshit to a meal, I'm sure there are coprophagia forums you could join instead.


Well, maybe ucim was a bit early in suggesting that you'd resort to personal invective, but hey, you got there.

Anyways, the number of children in custody has only jumped by 20%. Sure, Trump's policies resulted in an increase, but it's really odd how everyone's embraced this moral panic now. It's fair if you see both parties as in the wrong, but it's not particularly so if it's just a reason to hate on republicans.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:06 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Those dudes are in Mexico, and were from Guatemala. It is unlikely that whatever situation they were fleeing in Guatemala applies to Mexico.
Yeah because there are no international gangs anywhere or anything.

Do you have any particular evidence that they were in danger? The article does not mention any imminent danger. This seems like pure subjectivity on your part.
That who was in danger? Were you under the impression that I was talking about one particular person?

Many of the people coming here are coming to get away from terrorism and gang violence. Many of the gangs in question operate with relative impunity in Mexico.

The administration is just enforcing the law and prosecuting illegal entry.
Ah yes the "just following orders" defense.

They don't have to separate families, and in fact they largely didn't before a couple months ago.

And apparently camps of children were not a moral crisis when a democrat was the president.
Yes, they were. You were not openly defending them at that time to my knowledge, so we weren't arguing about it here.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:09 pm UTC

One theory for the discrepancy might be that violent crime in no go zones are being under reported?

No go zones?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:16 pm UTC

Typical anti-immigration conspiracy theory bullshit.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:27 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
The children are essentially just being used as levers for a more open immigration policy/non enforcement of existing law. And, of course, the current situation is of bi-partisan creation.
The children are explicitly being used as political levers by the administration that has separated 2000 of them from their parents in the past six weeks. The fact that Democrats are also trying to pass legislation in response is not really the important thing here.

The administration is just enforcing the law and prosecuting illegal entry. The options they have are "don't prosecute" or "separate the families".
Source? Seriously - where's the law that says you have to separate families?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:29 pm UTC

It's not that you have to separate families. It's more that you can't keep children in custody for more than 20 days.


In regards to "no go zones"

Angela merkel's words speak for themselves:

https://www.apnews.com/438bb0ac98d04459ab2e392f3c4fc5ef
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:37 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:It's not that you have to separate families. It's more that you can't keep children in custody for more than 20 days.
And yet, calling the camps something else doesn't make them not "in custody".

If it's something they "have to do" thanks to much older laws, why did it start in April?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:55 pm UTC

Previously, if families were caught, criminal charges were typically not filed. The Trump admin changed the policy to start filing criminal charges against all parents who are caught, and those are the people who are now having their children taken away. It's not that children were never taken away before, it's that they usually didn't file criminal charges unless there was a reason other than crossing the border.

So yes, it's a massive and deliberate change of policy by the Trump administration that caused this crisis, and it was intentionally cruel.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:57 pm UTC

Two big developments in the last hour:

Senator Bill Nelson denied entry to tour child migrant detention facility in Florida

US is poised to announce an exit from UN human rights council
U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Nikki Haley threatened the pull-out last year, citing longstanding U.S. complaints that the 47-member council is biased against Israel.
But Tuesday's announcement also comes just a day after the U.N. human rights chief denounced the Trump administration for separating migrant children from their parents.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:59 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:It's not that you have to separate families. It's more that you can't keep children in custody for more than 20 days.
And yet, calling the camps something else doesn't make them not "in custody".

If it's something they "have to do" thanks to much older laws, why did it start in April?


I'm not sure what you're talking about. They are detained by CBP and released to HHS within 72 hours, as required. HHS then has 17 or 20 days (not sure when that counter starts - after detained or with HHS) to complete background checks and find a suitable familial relationship to release them to while the adults are being processed for their illegal entry.

And what is your source on this starting in April? This has always been the case. It just so happens that the Obama administration was told, by the 9th circuit, they had to do this. Instead, the Obama administration went the selective prosecution route and stopped prosecuting the adults and just immediately released them. Trump, at least per my understanding, has simply rescinded the policy of selectively prosecuting illegal entries and is now moving forward with a zero-tolerance policy of prosecuting anyone that crosses illegally.

So from Trump's perspective - if he wants to end the obama era policy of selective enforcement and prosecute all illegal entries - then that means he must also follow the laws and court rulings that go along with how to treat the children who came across as well.

I mean the fact that there were photos floating around from 2014 - being falsely used against the trump administration - shows this has been done before.

The solution - new legislation. Let's fix the immigration system damnit. That's like the one thing we can all agree on to some degree.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:01 pm UTC

So... in order to be cruel because tears are what allows the brain parasite that is his hair blossom into a cloud of spores, all the child custody services are going to be gummed up for a while. Which means child predators will run free for a while longer. So technically Trump is enabling child predators.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:02 pm UTC

Like, literally Trump can give an order to solve this problem tomorrow. This is a deliberate policy shift with the intention of being cruel, because they are monsters and racists. Republicans in Congress are also monsters and don't want to solve this problem if it means losing votes in their districts.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:10 pm UTC

The "zero tolerance policy" is part of the new bullshit surrounding this, and it's that new bullshit that started (ramping up) in April.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:13 pm UTC

Stupid question. Who is doing the filming of the kids?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:18 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Republicans in Congress are also monsters and don't want to solve this problem if it means losing votes in their districts.


You didn't see my link to Ted Cruz's proposed legislation then I guess.

I know it's an unpopular opinion among users here but I for one don't stand for people who don't obey our immigration laws. Cross the border illegally and you're going to face the consequences. I agree the separation of children from their parents is antithetical to American values. And I agree we should find a way to fix it - I support Cruz's proposal. But I still want people held accountable for their actions.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:23 pm UTC

Put up a clean bill and every Democrat will support it, so you don't even need a majority of Republicans to override the veto. So, why aren't Republicans able to get the support?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:23 pm UTC

Hey, I think we shouldnt let in anyone unvetted, but these arent bad people and theres no need to separate families.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:26 pm UTC

Also, ask yourself why they are willing to take so much risk to come here, and why there is so much poverty in a region of the world in which the US has historically had so much influence. Maybe America should take some fucking responsibility for it's actions? Of course, if we compensated the world for the damage we did in the name of capitalism, we would be as poor as them.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:31 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Source? Seriously - where's the law that says you have to separate families?


If you put an adult in jail, you don't put their kids there with them.

This isn't even specific to immigration, it's sort of a general standard. You've got specific case law applying to immigration, which I mentioned up-thread. I suppose one could frame literally all law enforcement resulting in arrest as "breaking up families", by the standard used here. And, yes, it's true that you could opt to just not charge anyone. If nobody goes to jail, no separation happens. So, Trump's desire to enforce illegal immigration more strictly is increasing the rate.

If the democrats wanted to jail kids with their parents, they could have made a different settlement in the Clinton administration. Or, Obama could have done something other than ignoring it and losing a court case. The precedent, policies, and child detention facilities are created by them(though republicans also have at least some responsibility, because of how government works). You can say there's "no law", in that there is no one specific law causing this outcome, but given that the judicial branch shut the executive down when they tried to avoid it, that's not much more than a dodge. The Supreme court could overturn this, maybe. Depends on if they want the case, I guess.

Anyways, the idea of it being a Trump invention is decently debunked via Snopes: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/childrens-concentration-camp/. That camp's 900 immigrant kids, and it's Obama era. 'twas another time when they had a lot, and existing facilities were overfull. In fairness, Snopes says, and I agree, that it isn't really a concentration camp proper.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:34 pm UTC

Under Obama there was a wave of child refugees that were unaccompanied by parents. They did not tear the children away from their families.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:37 pm UTC

We've got another surge of those. Part of the reason for the increasing numbers of kids needing housing. The rest is, like you say, a result of detaining the parents.

That said, if you're going for an "Obama administration would never do that" sorta gotcha....

"The Obama White House brainstormed ways to control the surge and discourage families from making the journey. One of those ideas was to separate parents from their children, an Obama domestic policy adviser told The New York Times." https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2018/06/18/trumps-zero-tolerance-policy-differs-ways-bush-obama-treated-immigrant-families

Now, sure, they ended up largely detaining the whole family, but when that got axed legally, looks like we're back to the idea that the Obama team dreamed up.
Last edited by Tyndmyr on Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:40 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:39 pm UTC

Well, the thing that we are talking about is the policy by the Trump administration to take children away from families.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:41 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Put up a clean bill and every Democrat will support it, so you don't even need a majority of Republicans to override the veto. So, why aren't Republicans able to get the support?


No need to override a veto - the DHS secretary literally told congress to change the policy in a press conference yesterday.

CorruptUser wrote:Hey, I think we shouldnt let in anyone unvetted, but these arent bad people and theres no need to separate families.


There is still the matter of having entered the country illegally.

Thesh wrote:Also, ask yourself why they are willing to take so much risk to come here, and why there is so much poverty in a region of the world in which the US has historically had so much influence. Maybe America should take some fucking responsibility for it's actions? Of course, if we compensated the world for the damage we did in the name of capitalism, we would be as poor as them.


I know I won't ever change your mind about capitalism so I probably shouldn't even try to dive into this comment. They're coming here because their countries have become shit holes. Through various policy failures of their own doing and to some extent from other countries within the western hemisphere (yes including the USA). Not to mention America's insatiable lust for drugs helping prop up the countless cartels of northern South America, central america and mexico. There is plenty of blame to throw around all over.

And in in spite of what i'm sure can only be a massively negative view of the current administration - they still come here.. They must think our capitalistic society is worth risking their lives for. Does anyone know how many people die between their home countries in south and central america and USA?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:41 pm UTC

Sorry, posted early. Edited in the rest of the relevant bits.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:44 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:And in in spite of what i'm sure can only be a massively negative view of the current administration - they still come here.. They must think our capitalistic society is worth risking their lives for. Does anyone know how many people die between their home countries in south and central america and USA?


Their societies are capitalist too. But yes, let's just dismiss everything that's wrong with their countries as being the stuff that's not capitalism, and downplay the role of Western countries, all so you can save a couple of bucks on taxes, although it's not clear denying immigrants is actually beneficial to anyone.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:44 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Zohar wrote:Source? Seriously - where's the law that says you have to separate families?


If you put an adult in jail, you don't put their kids there with them.

This isn't even specific to immigration, it's sort of a general standard. You've got specific case law applying to immigration, which I mentioned up-thread. I suppose one could frame literally all law enforcement resulting in arrest as "breaking up families", by the standard used here. And, yes, it's true that you could opt to just not charge anyone. If nobody goes to jail, no separation happens. So, Trump's desire to enforce illegal immigration more strictly is increasing the rate.

You can't know it's illegal immigration until you actually look at the case. These people haven't been determined to have committed a crime. And even then, a lot of crime that happens today gets resolved without jail time. Choosing to jail these parents in the first place is what's driving this, and it's a policy decision, not based on any legal requirement.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:56 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:And in in spite of what i'm sure can only be a massively negative view of the current administration - they still come here.. They must think our capitalistic society is worth risking their lives for. Does anyone know how many people die between their home countries in south and central america and USA?


Their societies are capitalist too. But yes, let's just dismiss everything that's wrong with their countries as being the stuff that's not capitalism, and downplay the role of Western countries, all so you can save a couple of bucks on taxes, although it's not clear denying immigrants is actually beneficial to anyone.



They just did capitalism wrong.. like all those other countries did socialism wrong... <Please don't respond to this, I am 100% trolling on this>

I'm not saying we are free and clear of has caused this situation. I personally take a more isolationist view when it comes to interfering with other countries.

That being said, perhaps there are things we can do as a country to improve conditions in these other countries to the point that these people would prefer to stay there. And perhaps, that might even be cheaper than having to spend the money here on extra border patrol etc. I'm all for the cheaper option. I'm sure these people would prefer to stay in their home country - if it were safe. Still that won't stop the people who think they can prosper more. There will always be an immigration problem when you're the biggest economic power in the world.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:56 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:You can't know it's illegal immigration until you actually look at the case. These people haven't been determined to have committed a crime. And even then, a lot of crime that happens today gets resolved without jail time. Choosing to jail these parents in the first place is what's driving this, and it's a policy decision, not based on any legal requirement.


Letting folks go in the US sometimes resulted in folks not showing up for court dates. Additionally, as a general rule, getting caught in the act of committing a crime is not great for retaining custody of kids. I mean, if a person is in the US, isn't a citizen, and hasn't gone through any sort of immigration, demonstrating the crime is pretty open and shut.

Pre-trial incarceration is a thing for other crimes as well, depending. It's not strictly an immigration thing.

Thesh wrote:Their societies are capitalist too. But yes, let's just dismiss everything that's wrong with their countries as being the stuff that's not capitalism, and downplay the role of Western countries, all so you can save a couple of bucks on taxes, although it's not clear denying immigrants is actually beneficial to anyone.


I think it's a safe bet that our immigration policy is generally sub-optimal.

But compared with the rest of the developed world, it's not incredibly strange, either. Other developed countries also demonstrate a marked reluctance to accept large amounts of immigrants or asylum seekers.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yablo » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:00 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:So yes, it's a massive and deliberate change of policy by the Trump administration that caused this crisis, and it was intentionally cruel.

It was intentional, but it wasn't intentionally cruel. If we don't enforce the laws, they get exploited. The parents, guardians, or other adults exploiting U.S. immigration loopholes like that one are only using the children as shields, and that's not okay. Anyone legitimately seeking asylum can go to an official border crossing checkpoint and request it legally. Anyone taking children through the desert and/or any other dangerous situation with the intention of circumventing U.S. immigration law is not seeking asylum, and they do not have the children's best interests at heart.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:01 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:
Thesh wrote:Republicans in Congress are also monsters and don't want to solve this problem if it means losing votes in their districts.
You didn't see my link to Ted Cruz's proposed legislation then I guess.

I already linked to an explanation of (one of the reasons) why both Republican bills will get innocent people killed.

trpmb6 wrote:There is still the matter of having entered the country illegally.
That matter doesn't require us to jail anybody.

Tyndmyr wrote:But compared with the rest of the developed world, it's not incredibly strange, either. Other developed countries also demonstrate a marked reluctance to accept large amounts of immigrants or asylum seekers.
Which other developed country now has a policy of separating children from their parents no matter the age?

Yablo wrote:Anyone taking children through the desert and/or any other dangerous situation with the intention of circumventing U.S. immigration law is not seeking asylum, and they do not have the children's best interests at heart.
[citation needed]

The fact that you're privileged enough to find doing so unimaginable doesn't actually count as a citation, btw.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:02 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:You can't know it's illegal immigration until you actually look at the case. These people haven't been determined to have committed a crime. And even then, a lot of crime that happens today gets resolved without jail time. Choosing to jail these parents in the first place is what's driving this, and it's a policy decision, not based on any legal requirement.


It's a policy shift from what the previous administration was doing - which was a policy shift from what previous administrations were doing.

They are being detained because they are considered a flight risk - which is pretty understandable considering they crossed the border illegally.

It's really simple. Go to the authorized ports of entry - apply for asylum and wait the week or two you have to til you can meet with the judge for a determination. Meanwhile we can pass some legislation to get more judges in place to make the process a little quicker.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:05 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Yablo wrote:Anyone taking children through the desert and/or any other dangerous situation with the intention of circumventing U.S. immigration law is not seeking asylum, and they do not have the children's best interests at heart.
[citation needed]

The fact that you're privileged enough to find doing so unimaginable doesn't actually count as a citation, btw.


I actually think they are fed a lot of misinformation about what will happen when they cross the border. The coyotes get them across and then it's just a "walk north" until someone finds you and say you are seeking asylum.

I tend to agree though, if you're truly seeking asylum you shouldn't have marched north from honduras through other countries. You should have gone to the US embassy in Honduras. That's one of the main reasons for having an embassy - other than to service our own citizens while abroad.

edit sorry for double post - this thread is moving too fast now
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:07 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:That being said, perhaps there are things we can do as a country to improve conditions in these other countries to the point that these people would prefer to stay there. And perhaps, that might even be cheaper than having to spend the money here on extra border patrol etc. I'm all for the cheaper option. I'm sure these people would prefer to stay in their home country - if it were safe. Still that won't stop the people who think they can prosper more. There will always be an immigration problem when you're the biggest economic power in the world.


Do you ever consider that maybe the reason we are the biggest economic power around is because we had massive military, political, and economic influence, and used that so that we could make other countries economies heavily dependent on the US for the sake of making more money for ourselves? Ever wonder why the only countries that seem to not have major poverty are countries that have historically been major world military powers (that have historically had generous government programs)?

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We are rich not because capitalism is good at creating wealth - it is absolutely terrible at creating wealth - we are rich because capitalism is good at acquiring existing wealth. That is, the only reason we are rich is not because we have benefited the world, but because we have power simply due geopolitical conflicts; most of the world is worse off because we have used our power to benefit the wealthy here with a disregard for everyone else.

So many areas of the US are crumbling not because we are doing capitalism wrong, but because we are doing socialism less - almost everything good in our local economy came from government and not business. The countries that are impoverished are experiencing the exact same economic problems as those areas of the US, and without government to intervene capitalism just destroys them.
Last edited by Thesh on Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:10 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:08 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Yablo wrote:Anyone taking children through the desert and/or any other dangerous situation with the intention of circumventing U.S. immigration law is not seeking asylum, and they do not have the children's best interests at heart.
[citation needed]

The fact that you're privileged enough to find doing so unimaginable doesn't actually count as a citation, btw.


I actually think they are fed a lot of misinformation about what will happen when they cross the border. The coyotes get them across and then it's just a "walk north" until someone finds you and say you are seeking asylum.

I tend to agree though, if you're truly seeking asylum you shouldn't have marched north from honduras through other countries. You should have gone to the US embassy in Honduras. That's one of the main reasons for having an embassy - other than to service our own citizens while abroad.

edit sorry for double post - this thread is moving too fast now

[citation needed]

Do you understand the situations in their home countries? Do you understand the process of applying for asylum? Have you ever had to flee with your family from credible death threats?

If not, the fuck off with this bullshit.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:11 pm UTC

Yablo wrote: Anyone taking children through the desert and/or any other dangerous situation with the intention of circumventing U.S. immigration law is not seeking asylum, and they do not have the children's best interests at heart.


I mean, they might.

You and I would rather not have kids go through the desert, but generally speaking, these parents are probably not wrong that the US is a better place to raise those kids than wherever they're fleeing from.

Immigration control is generally for the US's benefit, not the refugees benefit.

gmalivuk wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:But compared with the rest of the developed world, it's not incredibly strange, either. Other developed countries also demonstrate a marked reluctance to accept large amounts of immigrants or asylum seekers.
Which other developed country now has a policy of separating children from their parents no matter the age?


It's not as common in other countries, but it does still happen. Canada, for instance, also has it as a policy of last resort. That said, it is less common, as Canada has a far smaller immigration problem than the US. It's growing for them as well, though. One could also point out that many European countries have generally more comfortable detainment than the US does. Taking the kids when parents are undergoing criminal charges happens in many countries to a degree. The US definitely has a lot of it, though.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:16 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:[citation needed]

Do you understand the situations in their home countries? Do you understand the process of applying for asylum? Have you ever had to flee with your family from credible death threats?

If not, the fuck off with this bullshit.


If you are facing a credible death threat, the most sensible action is to go straight to the embassy. Not march thousands of miles north on the hopes you'll make it. I don't even know how that can be argued against.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:20 pm UTC

You can say what you want, but both Trump and other people in the administration have talked multiple times about why they're doing this, and it's to try and get more money for a border wall.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:24 pm UTC

Just give him the wall so we can all move on with our lives.
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