Trump presidency

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:55 pm UTC

I was referring to the army as another country.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:46 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:"As a Conservative…"



Yeah. I really shouldn't refer to myself as a conservative for most things. As I said earlier in the thread. I'm a very weird conservative. And I happen to believe that most "conservatives" are wrong in their thinking. Maybe I should label myself as a conservative libertarian, but disagrees with a lot of things libertarians support too. This is where the two party system fails because there are a lot of things on the democrat side I support. But when it comes to voting I generally follow a fiscal conservative route. Social issues seem to be able to make progress outside of washington. Progress on a great number of social issues has been made in spite of washington.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:04 pm UTC

Socially liberal/fiscally conservative generally ends up in roughly in libertarian territory. 'sok to not agree with other libertarians. None of them agree with each other either. *stares at /r/Libertarian, eyes unfocused*

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:07 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Socially liberal/fiscally conservative

"I don't think LGBT kids kicked out of the house should die because they're queer, I think they should die because they're homeless."
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:09 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Socially liberal/fiscally conservative

"I don't think LGBT kids kicked out of the house should die because they're queer, I think they should die because they're homeless."


Now, now, traditionally we advocate for ALL poor to die equally in the gutter, yes?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:30 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Now, now, traditionally we advocate for ALL poor to die equally in the gutter, yes?

Isn't there a heart strings/friends clause where the government wouldn't help poor people, but individual people are free to donate? Then you get to feel better about the local situation, and can ignore the wider problem.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:34 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Isn't there a heart strings/friends clause where the government wouldn't help poor people, but individual people are free to donate? Then you get to feel better about the local situation, and can ignore the wider problem.


Well, of course anyone is free to donate if they choose. Gofundme can be the new national health care system.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:35 pm UTC

I donate thousands and volunteer all the time... as do many of my evil right wing tea bagger friends.

I found this article interesting. I don't think she has much of a claim to political asylum based on the statements her husband made.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:39 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Isn't there a heart strings/friends clause where the government wouldn't help poor people, but individual people are free to donate? Then you get to feel better about the local situation, and can ignore the wider problem.


By "individual people", you mean "churches". By having religious groups function as a bare bones welfare system, you ensure that the poor remain religious, you ensure that 'pesky' social movements are kept under wraps by not supporting 'deviant lifestyles', and more importantly, you ensure that the church is still relevant. After all, the church used to be your social club, psychiatric services, hospital, school system, welfare, event planner, etc, all in one package. But as we have more and more opportunities outside of the church itself, the church becomes increasingly irrelevant to modern life; religious groups don't oppose publicly funded welfare, education and healthcare because it's somehow "unchristian" but because those things are a religious group's death sentence.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:43 pm UTC

I don't think it invalidates her asylum request(unless of course, she lied on the paperwork or something), but it does call into question the credibility of those journalists. Will Time Magazine publish a correction? If they do, will it be anywhere near as prominent as the front page cover?

Gonna guess probably not.

CorruptUser wrote:By "individual people", you mean "churches". By having religious groups function as a bare bones welfare system, you ensure that the poor remain religious, you ensure that 'pesky' social movements are kept under wraps by not supporting 'deviant lifestyles', and more importantly, you ensure that the church is still relevant. After all, the church used to be your social club, psychiatric services, hospital, school system, welfare, event planner, etc, all in one package. But as we have more and more opportunities outside of the church itself, the church becomes increasingly irrelevant to modern life; religious groups don't oppose publicly funded welfare, education and healthcare because it's somehow "unchristian" but because those things are a religious group's death sentence.


Alright, the "dying in the gutter" bit was intended as dark comedy, but we can chat about this. There's a big religion/Republican overlap, but Libertarians are actually a lot less religious than the average*. 83% of the US at large identifies as some flavor of christian, but only 63% of Libertarians do. The idea that they're the biggest backers of the church is a bit odd. If anything, it's "well, at least the churches can be useful for that".

Also, plenty of religious folks are pro-education. Shit, the religious wing of the Republican party is probably the most big-government of the lot.

Religion's in politics, sure, but it's not quite as you suggest. Both primary parties will run a candidate that's at least nominally religious in all cases. Trump is probably one of the least Christian candidates to come out of the main parties in ages, so the Trump v Clinton election didn't really center on any sort of religion vs non religion thing. That's faded into the background a fair bit.

*https://www.prri.org/research/2013-american-values-survey/
Last edited by Tyndmyr on Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:53 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:52 pm UTC

Ninja'd--I'll post this instead:

Image

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby doogly » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:38 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Socially liberal/fiscally conservative

"I don't think LGBT kids kicked out of the house should die because they're queer, I think they should die because they're homeless."

That's excellent.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:42 pm UTC

Spoilered for off topic
Spoiler:
Yeah I'm not religious at all. The only religious bone in me is a "I'll allow that it is really impossible for us to truly know if there is some omnipotent being (or beings) that created us, the universe and everything else - but I find that possibility to be extremely slim"

I attend church about once a year - on christmas - and that's because my wife makes me go. If it were up to me I wouldn't bother.

I research about different institutions before donating to them. I generally don't even donate to alumni associations for instance - opting instead to donate directly to student led organizations - particularly student design teams that get students hands on experience. I won't donate to organizations like the salvation army or goodwill because I find their corporate like structures to be antithetical to the point of charity. I support other organizations like heartspring for instance. Though they too have a bit of corporate hierarchy that I'm not fond of. But in, at least Hearthspring's case, they get involved in things like tour-de-cure which can be a kind of fun event. I help sponsor a lot of co workers and co worker's kids who ride - usually giving more to the kids so they can "beat" their parents in the donation list.

Probably one of my favorite organization's is Dolly Parton's imagination library. For children 5 and under you can sign your kid up and they will get an age appropriate book every month. I'd say 60-75% of the books are bi-lingual (spanish/english) too which is neat, my son knew how to count to 10 in english and spanish by 2 years old in part thanks to this program. I love that program so much that I've given more to them (by far) than it would have cost me to simply buy each of the books. I would hope others who are able to would do so and not take advantage of it.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:22 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I don't think it invalidates her asylum request(unless of course, she lied on the paperwork or something), but it does call into question the credibility of those journalists. Will Time Magazine publish a correction? If they do, will it be anywhere near as prominent as the front page cover

Kushner has admittted to lying in multiple places on his various forms to get his position, each one a felony and since I don’t hear you baying for his blood, I can safely disregard every single statement you make about politics, ever.

I’m debating!
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:23 pm UTC

A bit off topic, but what the hell is with the trope of "ransom note made from cut and paste magazines"? There's going to be more of your DNA on that note if that's what you are worried about, your home now has a bunch of magazines missing those letters and thus is evidence if you don't recycle, and if you are so concerned about handwriting analysis then you can just, IDK, don't use your normal handwriting?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:30 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:I don't think it invalidates her asylum request(unless of course, she lied on the paperwork or something), but it does call into question the credibility of those journalists. Will Time Magazine publish a correction? If they do, will it be anywhere near as prominent as the front page cover

Kushner has admittted to lying in multiple places on his various forms to get his position, each one a felony and since I don’t hear you baying for his blood, I can safely disregard every single statement you make about politics, ever.

I’m debating!


You might be misunderstanding what I'm advocating.

I'm less interested in pursuing potential form errors on behalf of one immigrant than I am in looking at the fake news out there. Ultimately, the responsibility with this is primarily with the news agency, I think.

CorruptUser wrote:A bit off topic, but what the hell is with the trope of "ransom note made from cut and paste magazines"? There's going to be more of your DNA on that note if that's what you are worried about, your home now has a bunch of magazines missing those letters and thus is evidence if you don't recycle, and if you are so concerned about handwriting analysis then you can just, IDK, don't use your normal handwriting?


Mostly it's a movie thing, I think. An old movie thing, now that I think about it. Nowadays, one would just type out their ransom notes on a computer like a normal person. Handwriting is for old people.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:32 pm UTC

Ninjaed, but:

This is the way ransom notes were made when I was a kid, to avoid handwriting and ink identification, or identification of the typewriter. Back in the days of typewriters and no DNA testing. Thus immortalized in many TV and film portrayals of crime in those days of yore.

Obviously this is a font, because the doubled letters are identical.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby cphite » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:43 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:A bit off topic, but what the hell is with the trope of "ransom note made from cut and paste magazines"? There's going to be more of your DNA on that note if that's what you are worried about, your home now has a bunch of magazines missing those letters and thus is evidence if you don't recycle, and if you are so concerned about handwriting analysis then you can just, IDK, don't use your normal handwriting?


Well, the trope originated when handwriting analysis (or type-font analysis) was more relevant than DNA evidence... and nowadays, as long as your hypothetical villain was careful, he could minimize the amount of DNA evidence left on the note. Magazines can be burned or shredded.

Mainly it's just a really obvious and recognizable way of conveying a "ransom" style letter on the screen. Simply showing a note written in the crooks non-typical handwriting wouldn't provide the same visual - the audience has no way of recognizing that.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:46 pm UTC

Spoiler:
cphite wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:A bit off topic, but what the hell is with the trope of "ransom note made from cut and paste magazines"? There's going to be more of your DNA on that note if that's what you are worried about, your home now has a bunch of magazines missing those letters and thus is evidence if you don't recycle, and if you are so concerned about handwriting analysis then you can just, IDK, don't use your normal handwriting?


Well, the trope originated when handwriting analysis (or type-font analysis) was more relevant than DNA evidence... and nowadays, as long as your hypothetical villain was careful, he could minimize the amount of DNA evidence left on the note. Magazines can be burned or shredded.

Mainly it's just a really obvious and recognizable way of conveying a "ransom" style letter on the screen. Simply showing a note written in the crooks non-typical handwriting wouldn't provide the same visual - the audience has no way of recognizing that.


Kind of like "Save" icons looking like 3.5" floppy disks despite nobody having a 3.5" floppy drive for at least a decade and a half.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:50 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:I don't think it invalidates her asylum request(unless of course, she lied on the paperwork or something), but it does call into question the credibility of those journalists. Will Time Magazine publish a correction? If they do, will it be anywhere near as prominent as the front page cover

Kushner has admittted to lying in multiple places on his various forms to get his position, each one a felony and since I don’t hear you baying for his blood, I can safely disregard every single statement you make about politics, ever.

I’m debating!


spoilered for off topic:

Spoiler:
As someone who has gone through the process I find what he did reprehensible. They tell you to be completely upfront and 100% honest about everything. That being said - his SF86 form would be 100x more difficult to complete than mine was - and I'm almost certain he had a security clearance lawyer fill it out for him. At any rate they (adjudicators) allow for mitigating concerns etc. In the end they likely found the omissions (intentional or not) to be immaterial and unlikely to be used against him in a black mail type situation etc. If you're curious, check out clearancejobsblog.com - there's always a half dozen or so new users each day posting about their past history possibly being an issue. We always tell them to be as open and honest as possible. In fact, Marko's most recent blog post was about being as open and honest as possible - that clearance denials are usually related to being dishonest and trying to cover it up when confronted rather than owning up to it.

What troubles me is the process itself. We let top white house aides work on an interim clearance yet we won't let engineers work on new weapon systems for the DoD. Kind of a disparity there. Really, someone needs to figure out how we can get people for an incoming administration cleared before they enter the white house. And given the current backlogs the only realistic way of doing that is to start clearing people *before* they are even elected - at least a year before the general election. Which just seems impossible.

I may be a little bitter about OPM's processing times right now. So don't mind me....
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:54 pm UTC

spoilered for off topic on "ransom note" meme
Spoiler:
ObsessoMom wrote:Ninjaed, but:

This is the way ransom notes were made when I was a kid, to avoid handwriting and ink identification, or identification of the typewriter. Back in the days of typewriters and no DNA testing. Thus immortalized in many TV and film portrayals of crime in those days of yore.

Obviously this is a font, because the doubled letters are identical.


Came in here to say this. It's an old movie trope from before the era of widespread DNA analysis. You can't trace the handwriting, because there is none. You can't trace the typewriter manufacturer/ink ribbon because they are using widely distributed national magazines/newspapers instead (which you burn or otherwise dispose of after use).

Clearly this would not work today, for many, many reasons, but old tropes die hard.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:13 pm UTC

It dates back to when we used to do this:

Image
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:13 pm UTC


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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:17 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:I donate thousands and volunteer all the time... as do many of my evil right wing tea bagger friends.

I found this article interesting. I don't think she has much of a claim to political asylum based on the statements her husband made.

I find it interesting that her she went without her husband. Maybe the better life for her and her child included being beyond his reach. Or maybe not, but knowing the Mail I'm reserving judgement on what might be paid-for crocodile tears.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:20 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Socially liberal/fiscally conservative

"I don't think LGBT kids kicked out of the house should die because they're queer, I think they should die because they're homeless."
Now, now, traditionally we advocate for ALL poor to die equally in the gutter, yes?

The point is that most fiscal conservatism fucks over the same marginalized populations social conservatives hate.

Policies that hurt the poor and homeless are effectively racist, homophobic, transphobic, and so on, because those groups are disproportionately likely to be poor.

Your "social liberalism" means precisely fuck all if you refuse to acknowledge how social and financial issues overlap.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:58 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:The point is that most fiscal conservatism fucks over the same marginalized populations social conservatives hate.


Democrats hated them too until fairly recently. Both mainstream parties took a good long while to get around to respecting LGBT rights much at all, the sudden sense of superiority the Democrats display over it is ridiculous.

Yes, of course we ought to remove unequal legislation and the like, but mainstream leftist idealism has pretty dirty hands here as well.

Policies that hurt the poor and homeless are effectively racist, homophobic, transphobic, and so on, because those groups are disproportionately likely to be poor.


Ah, yes, disproportionate impact. Are they also anti-veteran, because veterans are more likely to be homeless? No, I don't think so. Someone can, and often will, support the military, yet not support more funding for the poor. In any case, the goal of fiscal conservatism is not actually to hurt the poor, but to improve the economy overall. While this might not be good for the poor in the short term, in the long term, having a health job market and booming GDP growth is of help for the poor as well as for everyone else.

Soupspoon wrote:I find it interesting that her she went without her husband. Maybe the better life for her and her child included being beyond his reach. Or maybe not, but knowing the Mail I'm reserving judgement on what might be paid-for crocodile tears.


In any case, she didn't seem to mind leaving the rest of the children with him.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby trpmb6 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:10 pm UTC

The thing about their story that struck me as odd was he viewed it as more dangerous than where they currently are. That he hopes she comes back.

She clearly wasn't fleeing the husband - or she would have taken the other three children as well. (if you fear someone will harm one child you fear they'll retaliate on the others)

It's fair to note that the 6,000 dollar coyote fee was hearsay - he heard it from someone who said they talked to her about it. So I don't know we can really consider that aspect.

It is interesting that the little girl who was used on the Time's cover wasn't separated from her mother at the border - as was claimed - but WAS separated from her father by her mother.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:12 pm UTC

Yes, they are also anti-veteran, thanks for asking.

Being pro-war and anti-veteran is consistent with a worldview of not giving a shit about the people your policies trample underfoot.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:20 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Yes, they are also anti-veteran, thanks for asking.

Being pro-war and anti-veteran is consistent with a worldview of not giving a shit about the people your policies trample underfoot.


You could, right now, donate every dollar you have to the poor. Doing so would help those same groups who trend towards poverty.

Are you racist for not doing so?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:23 pm UTC

This kerfuffle, like most of Orange's actions, is costing a Fortune!
Bad Orange Man! Bad!
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:25 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Yes, they are also anti-veteran, thanks for asking.

Being pro-war and anti-veteran is consistent with a worldview of not giving a shit about the people your policies trample underfoot.


You could, right now, donate every dollar you have to the poor. Doing so would help those same groups who trend towards poverty.

Are you racist for not doing so?

Are you planning to edit this post so it makes sense or is relevant to anything or nah?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:29 pm UTC

Look, you said that opposing a policy that would help poor folks is racist, sexist, and so on.

If you adopted a personal policy right now of donating more money to help them, why, they'd be helped, right?

Why is it only racist to oppose government policies, but not to oppose doing anything yourself?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:31 pm UTC

Not giving all my money away isn't opposition to any personal action.

But in any case, policies could actually eliminate or significantly reduce poverty, personal charity from any individual non-billionaire couldn't. That's the difference.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:33 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Yes, they are also anti-veteran, thanks for asking.

Being pro-war and anti-veteran is consistent with a worldview of not giving a shit about the people your policies trample underfoot.


You could, right now, donate every dollar you have to the poor. Doing so would help those same groups who trend towards poverty.

Are you racist for not doing so?

Counterpoint, a politician donates his salary to a department, but also cuts the department's budget. He may or may not claim accolades for his charity. Did he harm the department or hurt?


By nature of collective action>single action, the budget cuts dwarf the monetary donation. That's why political budgeting is more important than charitable donations.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tobias » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:35 pm UTC

trpmb6 wrote:But when it comes to voting I generally follow a fiscal conservative route. Social issues seem to be able to make progress outside of washington. Progress on a great number of social issues has been made in spite of washington.


What does "fiscal conservatism" even mean? As far as I can tell, based on the actions of fiscal conservatives, it means getting yourself into debt by cutting income faster than you cut spending, it means favouring short term results for already successful individuals over considerable long term gains for the country as a whole, socializing losses while privatizing gains, greatly increasing the amount of money spent on the military-industrial complex, and a lot of other things that basically amount to "being bad with money".

What is the actual appeal of fiscal conservatism, as implemented by those who actually practice fiscal conservatism?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:36 pm UTC

Of course an action may be bigger or smaller. I don't dispute that. But does that change the morality of it?

It is, after all, still racist if you harm only one individual instead of the entire lot, yes?

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sardia
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:38 pm UTC

Tobias wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:But when it comes to voting I generally follow a fiscal conservative route. Social issues seem to be able to make progress outside of washington. Progress on a great number of social issues has been made in spite of washington.


What does "fiscal conservatism" even mean? As far as I can tell, based on the actions of fiscal conservatives, it means getting yourself into debt by cutting income faster than you cut spending, it means favouring short term results for already successful individuals over considerable long term gains for the country as a whole, socializing losses while privatizing gains, greatly increasing the amount of money spent on the military-industrial complex, and a lot of other things that basically amount to "being bad with money".

What is the actual appeal of fiscal conservatism, as implemented by those who actually practice fiscal conservatism?

Fund defense and tax cuts by cutting social security, healthcare (Medicare Medicaid), and the domestic budget. Budgets are out of whack because Democrats haven't rolled over on domestic spending. None of it is the GOP fault.... Somewhere in there the sarcasm starts and the observations end.

Tobias
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tobias » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:48 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Fund defense and tax cuts by cutting social security, healthcare (Medicare Medicaid), and the domestic budget. Budgets are out of whack because Democrats haven't rolled over on domestic spending. None of it is the GOP fault.... Somewhere in there the sarcasm starts and the observations end.

I'm... actually, genuinely, not sure if you're arguing against or in favour of my description of fiscal conservatism here. In favour, I guess?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tobias » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:58 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:It is, after all, still racist if you harm only one individual instead of the entire lot, yes?


People tend to conflate multiple types of racism - the biggest ones being systemic racism (which afflicts populations, but from which many individuals in that population may escape in part or in whole) and personal racism (which may have minimal impact on the population as a whole but can have serious impact on individuals within it).

Redlining and breaking up of communities is an example of systemic racism, and was historically a powerful tool not for hurting individual black and poor people, but for harming them as a class. Individuals can escape the effects of redlining, but the results for the entire demographic are massive.

Isolated white supremacists shooting up black churches is personal racism - it has an outsized impact on particular black people, but does not do do much to disadvantage black people as a class. These sorts of actions can become systemic racism if they start to become a norm of interaction, but they need to happen a good deal for that to be true. Of course, many types of historical systemic racism are in fact personal racism that had sufficient widespread adoption (like white folk not wanting their daughters to get involved with or married to black men, and being willing to do violence in pursuit of that goal) to impact the class as a whole, even if its not intended to impact the class as a whole like redlining was.

Similarly some examples of systemic racism can have outsized impacts on individuals as well. For example, the many ethnic cleansing programs launched in the US against black people in the 20s and 30s both targeted the individual black people in the areas targeted, but also destroyed many of the institutions that were helping to pull black people as a class out of poverty and into a position more on par with their white compatriots. The effects were both profound to the individuals involved, and did long-lasting damage to the class as a whole.

Generally, it is systemic racism, not personal, that people attempt to tackle nowadays, because the effects can propagate for decades if not centuries.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:01 pm UTC

Look, a donation to the appropriate cause helps the protected class, yes? Sure, a larger donation helps more, but everything helps.

I mean, if it's only moral if it's a sufficiently large amount, then I guess only the rich can be moral.


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