Trump presidency

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:36 pm UTC

Kids are secretly being moved to camps now. No special trains yet, though.

Until now, most undocumented children being held by federal immigration authorities had been housed in private foster homes or shelters, sleeping two or three to a room. They received formal schooling and regular visits with legal representatives assigned to their immigration cases.

But in the rows of sand-colored tents in Tornillo, Tex., children in groups of 20, separated by gender, sleep lined up in bunks. There is no school: The children are given workbooks that they have no obligation to complete. Access to legal services is limited.

These midnight voyages are playing out across the country, as the federal government struggles to find room for more than 13,000 detained migrant children — the largest population ever — whose numbers have increased more than fivefold since last year.


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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:41 pm UTC

(sniff--sniff...) I know my Nation falls short of her ideal.
She always has....But,...Concentration Camps for Brown Children???

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A contorted justice for the rich men.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:06 pm UTC

Just out of curiosity, how would you set up an immigration policy of no illegal immigration while doing it in a humane manner? And no, "let them all in so it isnt illegal" isnt an option.

I dont think it cant be done, I just want to know how much worse than necessary this whole shebang is.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:13 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Just out of curiosity, how would you set up an immigration policy of no illegal immigration while doing it in a humane manner?

Build a wall?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:15 pm UTC

Kind of worthless since Mexico has this newfangled "rope" app for their phones or however "rope" works.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:21 pm UTC

If people were not migrating to escape war and extreme poverty, then no one would see a reason to restrict immigration. Restrictions on immigration are inhumane by design.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:22 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Kind of worthless since Mexico has this newfangled "rope" app for their phones or however "rope" works.


I hear there are great leaps in a new technology called "ladders."

No idea how they work, probably by magic.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:29 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:If people were not migrating to escape war and extreme poverty, then no one would see a reason to restrict immigration. Restrictions on immigration are inhumane by design.


This.

People are fleeing all but certain death in their home countries. It's like trying to restrict people from getting out of a burning building. Whatever you do to try to keep them inside will only drive them to greater levels of desperation to get to where they won't be on fire.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby eran_rathan » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:40 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Just out of curiosity, how would you set up an immigration policy of no illegal immigration while doing it in a humane manner? And no, "let them all in so it isnt illegal" isnt an option.



why?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Euphonium » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:40 pm UTC

Borders are a crime against humanity.

It's those who are responsible for making and enforcing them who are the ones in the wrong, not those violating them.

God will condemn border enforcers to Hell for all eternity if they do not repent and cease sinning.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:46 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Just out of curiosity, how would you set up an immigration policy of no illegal immigration while doing it in a humane manner? And no, "let them all in so it isnt illegal" isnt an option.

I dont think it cant be done, I just want to know how much worse than necessary this whole shebang is.

For people seeking immigration? Here’s a work ID. Get a job.

For people seeking asylum? Here’s an apartment and a work ID. You’re expected to get your own place and move out within 12 months.

Not sure why that’s so hard.

“BUT THEY’LL TAKE OUR JOBS!”

If you can be replaced by someone who may not speak the language, may not get the culture, and has no verifiable work experience, you need a better job anyway.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Dauric » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:03 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:If you can be replaced by someone who may not speak the language, may not get the culture, and has no verifiable work experience, you need a better job anyway.


I'd be in more agreement with this if our post-high-school education system wasn't such a mess of profit-seeking companies and horrendous student-loan debt. If someone's working a job that they could be replaced by an immigrant odds are they're lacking the qualifications necessary to get a better job in the first place. Mind you I think this will become a bigger problem with increasing automation. (Japan develops robot that hangs drywall).
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:33 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Just out of curiosity, how would you set up an immigration policy of no illegal immigration while doing it in a humane manner? And no, "let them all in so it isnt illegal" isnt an option.



why?


"We shouldnt have large scale immigration" is a valid position to have. It's not one I agree with, but it is still valid. And given that it's a valid position, the question becomes how you would go about this. Simply posting snipers on the border to kill everyone who gets too close is not an acceptable solution. Rounding up people and sending them overseas without due process to confirm that they are indeed in the country illegally instead of just the Mexicans who had the border cross them when the US conquered the Southwest is also unacceptable (and something the us is doing right now!).

So, assuming the Trump admin is right in wanting to restrict immigration (which I don't agree with), how should the child detention work?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Angua » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:46 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Just out of curiosity, how would you set up an immigration policy of no illegal immigration while doing it in a humane manner? And no, "let them all in so it isnt illegal" isnt an option.

I dont think it cant be done, I just want to know how much worse than necessary this whole shebang is.



For people seeking asylum? Here’s an apartment and a work ID. You’re expected to get your own place and move out within 12 months.

If you can be replaced by someone who may not speak the language, may not get the culture, and has no verifiable work experience, you need a better job anyway.

Ignoring other inequities in this statement (like refugees having more health problems both mental and physical after what they've generally been through that have made them refugees), can you see how expecting someone to be able to afford their own place even with a job in 12 months might be unreasonable?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:12 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
"We shouldnt have large scale immigration" is a valid position to have. It's not one I agree with, but it is still valid. And given that it's a valid position, the question becomes how you would go about this. Simply posting snipers on the border to kill everyone who gets too close is not an acceptable solution. Rounding up people and sending them overseas without due process to confirm that they are indeed in the country illegally instead of just the Mexicans who had the border cross them when the US conquered the Southwest is also unacceptable (and something the us is doing right now!).

So, assuming the Trump admin is right in wanting to restrict immigration (which I don't agree with), how should the child detention work?

You could do the deporter in Chief-obama policy. You let in as many refugees as you can (100k vs 5000-30000), deport everyone you convicted for a felony. It's still pretty awful and you have millions still in the shadows. Lots of wasted money. But it's been done.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:56 pm UTC

In a startling discovery that blows everyone's minds, it turns out that Trump is completely fucking incompetent when it comes to business.

New York Times wrote:In Mr. Trump’s version of how he got rich, he was the master dealmaker who broke free of his father’s “tiny” outer-borough operation and parlayed a single $1 million loan from his father (“I had to pay him back with interest!”) into a $10 billion empire that would slap the Trump name on hotels, high-rises, casinos, airlines and golf courses the world over. In Mr. Trump’s version, it was always his guts and gumption that overcame setbacks. Fred Trump was simply a cheerleader.

...

But The Times’s investigation of the Trump family’s finances is unprecedented in scope and precision, offering the first comprehensive look at the inherited fortune and tax dodges that guaranteed Donald J. Trump a gilded life. The reporting makes clear that in every era of Mr. Trump’s life, his finances were deeply intertwined with, and dependent on, his father’s wealth.
Wow.

So, apparently, this rich guy is a moron who doesn't know the first thing about how to run a business, and managed to stay afloat only thanks to Daddy's checkbook being there to bail him out of decision after stupid decision. This is super shocking. Guys, my expression is one of extreme shock. Can you tell? No? Well, if you could, you'd see so much shock. I'm definitely wearing my 'shocked' face right now. So shocked.

Trump -- a shitty, incompetent businessman who constantly needed his Dad's cash to stay solvent? Man. I mean, really -- who knew?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:03 pm UTC

It's a tax evasion story, can you cite where the article says Trump lost a bunch of money?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:09 pm UTC

sardia wrote:It's a tax evasion story, can you cite where the article says Trump lost a bunch of money?
Did you read the article?
New York Times wrote:As the 1980s ended, Donald Trump’s big bets began to go bust — Trump Shuttle, the Plaza Hotel, the Atlantic City casinos. But as he careened from one financial disaster to another, family partnerships and companies dramatically increased their payouts.
I mean, yes -- it's about tax evasion. Specifically, how they evaded paying taxes on all that money Trump's dad bailed him out with.
New York Times wrote:Tax records also reveal that at the peak of Mr. Trump’s financial distress, in 1990, his father extracted an extraordinary sum — nearly $50 million — from his empire. While The Times could find no evidence that Fred Trump made any significant debt payments, charitable donations or personal expenditures, there are indications that he wanted plenty of cash on hand to bail out his son if need be.
Just read the piece. It describes Trump losing lots of money, again and again -- and these losses being hidden by his father.

It's about tax evasion because that's what made it illegal.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:21 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The third woman's case probably wasn't worth mentioning, and the FBI seems to agree since they are ignoring it entirely. She saw Kavanaugh at a party where she claimed rapes were frequent but she never witnessed Kavanaugh doing anything.


Yeah, the third one's a bit weak. Nothing on the candidate at all, other than the fact that he was partying. 1 and 2 are more interesting, since they give us claims to prove/disprove/support/weaken. Those are enough to do a bit of digging into, though. If it turns out to be just partisan scaremongering, well...that's that. But if we look, we'll get an idea.

I don't think his nomination means the US becomes a dictatorship, but one need not resort to such extremes to justify a bit of due diligence.

CorruptUser wrote:Just out of curiosity, how would you set up an immigration policy of no illegal immigration while doing it in a humane manner? And no, "let them all in so it isnt illegal" isnt an option.

I dont think it cant be done, I just want to know how much worse than necessary this whole shebang is.


It's really not *that* hard. Make the legal path a lot more elegant, timely, and lower on red tape. If you do that, you'll get a lot more people using that channel. Having fewer illegal immigrants to deal with will significantly ease handling them. Better border enforcement is all well and good, but will only catch certain types of cases, and say, a visa overstay won't be prevented by a wall. I'm totally okay with good enforcement, but you've got to take a sensible approach to it. If the scale of the problem is too large, you need to rework the system to focus on the actual problems.

Drug problem, same same.

Euphonium wrote:Borders are a crime against humanity.

It's those who are responsible for making and enforcing them who are the ones in the wrong, not those violating them.

God will condemn border enforcers to Hell for all eternity if they do not repent and cease sinning.


Borders are necessary. Controlling them is sort of part of the definition of being a state. Gotta control that territory. Statelessness is a pipe dream in modern civilization.

But we can have borders and still handle things a great deal more sensibly.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Euphonium » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:17 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Borders are necessary.


That is not a reality-based statement.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:40 pm UTC

Euphonium wrote:That is not a reality-based statement.
Borders are necessary because borders exist. If I enforce borders and you don't, you're going to get screwed.

It's true that if we all agreed borders are unnecessary, they would (probably?) cease to be necessary. But so long as somebody powerful is enforcing borders, it's in their neighbours' interest to enforce their borders, too.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:05 pm UTC

Euphonium wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Borders are necessary.
That is not a reality-based statement.
Is the border between your home and the outside world necessary? Is the border between your bank account and my bank account necessary? What changes when the scale changes?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:15 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Euphonium wrote:That is not a reality-based statement.
Is the border between your home and the outside world necessary? Is the border between your bank account and my bank account necessary? What changes when the scale changes?

Jose
I doubt they were referring to borders as a concept. They're probably talking about the notion of enforcing borders between countries to prevent the unregulated transport of people and goods across them.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby SDK » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:29 pm UTC

I think Jose is just saying that borders exist, at a fundamental level, to keep the people within those borders secure. That means physically as well as economically.

Yes, to a certain extent that means "I got mine, fuck you", so you can call borders immoral if you want to. If you want to say that, though, you've got to include the whole idea of private land ownership as well. That's something that might be a little harder for humanity to give up at this point (Thesh notwithstanding).
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:37 pm UTC

I already started a thread just about this a while back, but it seems to me that there is a conflict between offering free services to everyone within a geographical area and letting just anyone into that geographical area, a conflict very similar to the "no borders on your bank account" concept Jose mentioned.

Thesh's point about (more or less) that problem going away if all countries were of comparable quality, so people wouldn't be fleeing hellish situations for greener pastures, is true, but only counterfactually so. If that were the case then the problem would go away, and we should be working toward making that the case, but in the mean time it's not the case, so while that situation lasts what do we do?

I want open borders. I also want generous public services. If every country everywhere had open borders and generous public services those two things could work out great. But if we're the only ones with both of those things, and everywhere else is either the hellscape other people are fleeing from or else closes their doors to those fleeing, then that puts an undue burden on us.

It's like, I want everyone to have a place to live, I don't want anyone to be homeless, but until we've got some kind of truly egalitarian situation, I don't want to be the only guy in town opening his doors for all the homeless people to come live with me. I want to have my own place to live too, that's not full of otherwise-would-be-homeless people. They definitely deserve a place to live, and I feel sorry for them, but given that I've got to fight so hard just to hold on to my own place to live and keep it in order, why should the burden be just on me to take them in? National borders are basically that, on a larger scale. If the whole world worked like it should, we wouldn't need them and shouldn't have them, but in a world that doesn't work like it should, they're a necessary evil.

And that leaves us with the question of how best to manage them. To which I don't really have any good answers, hence that thread I linked at the start wherein I invite discussion of what immigration policy I should support, since I've kinda got no idea.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:45 pm UTC

I'm snarking when I say that we should invade/annex Guatamala and give everyone there citizenship, since 1/5 of that country has already emigrated to the US, so we might as well make things easier and bring the border to them.

Maybe that should be the ideal immigration policy. No more sabotaging the third world, just straight up annexation and invasion until the planet is one giant one world country. Then there will be no such thing as a border.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby eran_rathan » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:53 pm UTC

I'm down with that, as long as Canada is in charge.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:04 am UTC

The US is already Canada's Mexico anyway, so they can annex us, and then the new United States of Canada can annex Mexico, and then keep on going, along the way adopting the predominant usage of its now-constituent countries of "America" meaning "the Americas", and we'll end up with just one United States of America again in the end.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:08 am UTC

The fun thing about democracies is that if the US annexed Canada or Canada annexed the US, it wouldn't make all that much of a difference since you'd still have the same 350 million people voting on things.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:14 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The fun thing about democracies is that if the US annexed Canada or Canada annexed the US, it wouldn't make all that much of a difference since you'd still have the same 350 million people voting on things.

The by laws, depending on who annexed who would be of great conflict. Parliamentary vs 2 party, no electoral college.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:18 am UTC

To be honest, I really don't think we would have a problem handling completely unrestricted migration, provided we gave people assistance to find homes and jobs, and make sure they weren't worried about food. We would just screw shit up, because we are America and believe in doing the absolute bare minimum to assist anyone. We don't have a lack of the physical resources necessary; it's just that it's not profitable to allocate them to everyone in need.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:32 am UTC

Can someone explain the benefit of keeping the FBI inquiry out of the hands of the public?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:35 am UTC

Because the only purpose is to provide cover to vote "yes", and they can lie about how convinced they are.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Euphonium » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:46 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Can someone explain the benefit of keeping the FBI inquiry out of the hands of the public?


Eh, fuck Brett Kavanaugh and the pro-rape GOP, but background checks are never public for the simple reason that they go into intensely personal matters, of not just the subject but potentially anyone who's ever had any sort of association of any kind with the subject who ends up being interviewed. It's not really the same legal regime, but it's the same basic reason that personnel records are largely exempt from FOIA beyond "Yes, this person held this job during this time span."
Last edited by Euphonium on Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:14 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:47 am UTC

On a related note:
Eoin Hauntins wrote:Sen. Pat Leahy, June 6, 2006:

"In the important DC Circuit, the confirmation of Brett Kavanaugh was the culmination the Republicans’ decade-long attempt to pack the DC Circuit that began with the stalling of Merrick Garland’s nomination in 1996"
In the words of one response:
Spoiler:
time.gif
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:59 am UTC

Oh please, everyone knows that history is on a 40ish year cycle, not 20. For instance, financial chaos for many years due to utter incompetence by the banking system around 1890, 1930, 1970 and 2010. Best sell all your stocks in 2045, folks!

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:50 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:I doubt they were referring to borders as a concept. They're probably talking about the notion of enforcing borders between countries to prevent the unregulated transport of people and goods across them.
Subsequent posters got it right.

But, although...
Pfhorrest wrote:I don't want to be the only guy in town opening his doors for all the homeless people to come live with me.
which hits (one) nail on the head...
paraphrased, Pfhorrest wrote:Thesh's point: If [if all countries were of comparable quality] then the problem would go away [...] [Pfhorrest's point:] I want open borders. I also want generous public services....
You are looking only at economics, and that's a mistake. There are other reasons to flee a country. Ideology and religion are in that set. A country with your least favorite ideology, and whose least favorite religion is the state religion, but whose economy is booming, is probably a country you would flee too. That's the whole point of asylum, and the statue of liberty.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:54 am UTC

ucim wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:I doubt they were referring to borders as a concept. They're probably talking about the notion of enforcing borders between countries to prevent the unregulated transport of people and goods across them.
Subsequent posters got it right.

But, although...
Pfhorrest wrote:I don't want to be the only guy in town opening his doors for all the homeless people to come live with me.
which hits (one) nail on the head...
paraphrased, Pfhorrest wrote:Thesh's point: If [if all countries were of comparable quality] then the problem would go away [...] [Pfhorrest's point:] I want open borders. I also want generous public services....
You are looking only at economics, and that's a mistake. There are other reasons to flee a country. Ideology and religion are in that set. A country with your least favorite ideology, and whose least favorite religion is the state religion, but whose economy is booming, is probably a country you would flee too. That's the whole point of asylum, and the statue of liberty.

Jose

Opening your own home, and letting others spend your money is a false dichotomy. With more people, especially people you didn't waste money growing from birth, the economy grows. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... lp-economy

So the kiddie/brown people concentration camps. Is that not an outrage anymore? Are we just stuck with a huge pile of them because we caught too many before we stopped jailing them?

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ucim
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ucim » Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:30 am UTC

sardia wrote:Opening your own home, and letting others spend your money is a false dichotomy.
Your comment is a false dichotomy.

Look at the context: I was replying to Euphonium's (IMHO ridiculous) comment that borders are not necessary. I presented a case in which I think even xe would agree that borders are necessary, and asked at what point (and why) when scaling up, the necessity disappears.

I was not arguing that immigrants are bad, nor was I arguing for concentration camps for brown people. And I don't think there's anywhere in my posting history that would support those views.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Heartfelt thanks from addams and from me - you really made a difference.

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Grop
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Grop » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:50 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I want open borders. I also want generous public services. If every country everywhere had open borders and generous public services those two things could work out great. But if we're the only ones with both of those things, and everywhere else is either the hellscape other people are fleeing from or else closes their doors to those fleeing, then that puts an undue burden on us.


I wouldn't worry too much about the US having more generous public services than their neighbors.


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