Trump presidency

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
orthogon
Posts: 3082
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 7:52 am UTC
Location: The Airy 1830 ellipsoid

Re: Trump presidency

Postby orthogon » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:01 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:The fact is that -- again -- literally every denomination of Judaism (as well as Jewish organizations!) rejects Messianic Jews as spiritually Jewish.

I can't comment on the facts of the debate (except that it sounds outrageous, ridiculous, deliberately inflammatory, incredible, and hence fairly unexceptional for this second eighth of the 21st Century), but isn't this No True Scotsman? Presumably, given the name, Messianic Jews don't reject themselves as spiritually Jewish?

ETA: Whoops, I just intended this as a passing aside, but now I've ended up as the Pagepope or something...
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10499
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:13 pm UTC

Uh, no, it's not a "no true Scotsman" because they aren't Jewish, any more than Idi Amin was Scottish royalty.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:19 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Uh, no, it's not a "no true Scotsman" because they aren't Jewish, any more than Idi Amin was Scottish royalty.


I mean, they're ethnically Jewish(at least largely), they celebrate passover, do the whole circumcision thing, and they do church on Saturday.

They're at least kind of Jewish.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7368
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:22 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:I can't comment on the facts of the debate (except that it sounds outrageous, ridiculous, deliberately inflammatory, incredible, and hence fairly unexceptional for this second eighth of the 21st Century), but isn't this No True Scotsman? Presumably, given the name, Messianic Jews don't reject themselves as spiritually Jewish?
But on the other far extreme of the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy is someone who claims that they're a Scotsman despite the fact that they were born, raised, and continue to live in Australia. Because they wear a kilt! And they eat haggis! And they've got a really great Scottish accent they've been working on -- that means they're Scottish, right?

No. The lesson that the No True Scotsman fallacy teaches isn't that anyone can be a Scotsman; it's that whether or not you're a Scotsman is independent of your behavior. Being a Scotsman means you meet the requirements of being a Scotsman. Those requirements are: You're a citizen of Scotland. That's it.

Being a spiritual Jew means that you meet the requirements of being a spiritual Jew. Who gets to set those requirements? Spiritual Jews, I presume. And all denominations of Judaism have decided that one of those requirements is not believing Christ is the Messiah, son of God.

No, Messianic Jews don't get a say in this, for the same reason I can't declare myself a US Senator, then submit a bill to the Senate to permit anyone to declare themselves a US Senator (then vote for its ratification). Messianic Jews started in the 1970s. The people they're arguing with are part of a tradition of spiritual Judaism that is thousands of years old. Their definition takes priority.

User avatar
Zohar
COMMANDER PORN
Posts: 8534
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:45 pm UTC
Location: Denver

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:41 pm UTC

idonno wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Generally, one would prefer to ask a catholic priest to officiate at the funeral of a noted catholic, not a protestant. There are circumstances where it's close enough, or joint ceremonies are better when many faiths are involved, but rule of thumb, it's more proper to get the same faith religious leader to officiate.

But this was a campaign rally not a funeral. Also, apparently the members of the Michigan Board of Rabbis are not participating in political campaigns (I wish more groups would behave like that) so it was probably not possible to get anything closer than this for the event (except for possibly a non defrocked Messianic Rabbi).

Perhaps they could have not invited a religious figure?
Mighty Jalapeno: "See, Zohar agrees, and he's nice to people."
SecondTalon: "Still better looking than Jesus."

Not how I say my name

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 4060
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:46 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Perhaps they could have not invited a religious figure?

That'd only be a given in a jurisdiction where there's a separation of Church and State, though…

idonno
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:34 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby idonno » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:20 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
idonno wrote:I'm pretty sure the people practicing it aren't only practicing it for the purpose of proselytizing other Jews.
Then why not just call themselves "Christians", or "Hebrew Christians"? Why is it so important that they be Jewish?

Because they consider themselves a continuation of that religious cultural heritage and find it important. Why do you care so much about how they religiously identify themselves.

The Great Hippo wrote:
idonno wrote:What gives one set of descendants more right to the identity than another? From your argument, it sounds to me like other groups are claiming ownership of a historical identity that these people have just as much ethnic claim to. This is a dispute between two Semitic groups.
Judaism is much more complicated than an ethnic identity. The fact is that -- again -- literally every denomination of Judaism (as well as Jewish organizations!) rejects Messianic Jews as spiritually Jewish. You can't believe Christ is the messiah and also be spiritually a Jew.

Historic origins of Christianity which literally started as a sect of Judaism that believed Christ was the messiah would indicate otherwise. Who gets to determine what makes someone "spiritually a Jew" and what gives them that right? Also, it doesn't matter how complicated an issue Judaism is. This is no more antisemitic than the fighting between the tutsi and hutu is anti black. It is a dispute between two Semitic groups about technical issues with religion and since they aren't committing any atrocities, I don't see why anyone from the outside should care. Both groups are well within the parameters of what those responsible for the killing hate and wish to kill.

Zohar wrote:Perhaps they could have not invited a religious figure?
In general, I think it would be better if that was how these things were handled but it isn't and it seems pretty likely that if it happened in just this case the result would be a negative narrative of not caring about the issue?

Tyndmyr wrote:It's...a context thing. In context, praising Christ for being God is different than praising him for being a great prophet.
I didn't mean for that to become a major discussion point but most of the praise I here is prayer is generic enough to fit either. Even the title Lord is an acknowledgment of authority not divinity.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7368
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:33 pm UTC

idonno wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:
idonno wrote:I'm pretty sure the people practicing it aren't only practicing it for the purpose of proselytizing other Jews.
Then why not just call themselves "Christians", or "Hebrew Christians"? Why is it so important that they be Jewish?

Because they consider themselves a continuation of that religious cultural heritage and find it important. Why do you care so much about how they religiously identify themselves.
[/quote]...because... members of the Jewish faith... care... about who identifies as Jewish? Clearly, they think it's important. Are you arguing I shouldn't?

Would you prefer to talk about this topic with someone of the Jewish faith? They could probably explain it better than I could, anyway. There's probably a lot of them here on the forums who could elaborate on why Jewish identity is important, both to them personally and to Jews in general.
idonno wrote:Historic origins of Christianity which literally started as a sect of Judaism that believed Christ was the messiah would indicate otherwise. Who gets to determine what makes someone "spiritually a Jew" and what gives them that right?
Literally, all the spiritual Jews. Which they did. All of them. Again, literally all the denominations of Judaism agreed on this.

Are you arguing that we shouldn't accept a requirement of Judaism proposed by literally every single denomination of Judaism? If not, then who do you think should get to set those requirements? No one?

Can I decide I'm a Jew right now?
idonno wrote:Also, it doesn't matter how complicated an issue Judaism is. This is no more antisemitic than the fighting between the tutsi and hutu is anti black. It is a dispute between two Semitic groups about technical issues with religion and since they aren't committing any atrocities, I don't see why anyone from the outside should care. Both groups are well within the parameters of what those responsible for the killing hate and wish to kill.
Because there are Jewish people who I love and care about. Do you think I shouldn't care about things important to the people I love and care about?

Like, I'm sorry -- but what are you trying to argue here? "Hippo, stop giving a shit about things!" sounds like the gist of it.

arbiteroftruth
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:44 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby arbiteroftruth » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:04 pm UTC

I believe the point is that saying "only Jews get to decide who counts as Jewish" is circular reasoning, at least if it's not refined more. You'd have to go with something like "Judaism is defined by the prevailing consensus among all people who call themselves Jewish", in which case Messianic Jews would be excluded because their numbers pale in comparison to the consensus among self-described Jews in general. It's not that they're disqualified outright from calling themselves Jews, it's that they're vastly outnumbered by everyone else who uses the word to refer to traditional Judaism exclusively. It's ultimately just another case of language being defined by the consensus of its speakers.

I suspect that's what you mean in the first place, but it's worth clarifying, because "only Jews get to decide who counts as Jewish", without elaboration, is a circular argument.

User avatar
Grop
Posts: 1994
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:36 am UTC
Location: France

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Grop » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:15 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The Christian families were bewildered, 'why do they hate us, the trinity is very simple it's just a 3 sided paper, we aren't polytheists how could they say that about us'


While I was born in what is historically a Catholic country (and my four grandparents were Catholics) that trinity thing that is totally not polytheism is a very hard thing to grasp. I suppose my interest would have to be much less superficial for my mind to make the necessary twists and maybe some drugs could help.

idonno
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:34 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby idonno » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:17 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
idonno wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:
idonno wrote:I'm pretty sure the people practicing it aren't only practicing it for the purpose of proselytizing other Jews.
Then why not just call themselves "Christians", or "Hebrew Christians"? Why is it so important that they be Jewish?

Because they consider themselves a continuation of that religious cultural heritage and find it important. Why do you care so much about how they religiously identify themselves.
...because... members of the Jewish faith... care... about who identifies as Jewish? Clearly, they think it's important. Are you arguing I shouldn't?

Would you prefer to talk about this topic with someone of the Jewish faith? They could probably explain it better than I could, anyway. There's probably a lot of them here on the forums who could elaborate on why Jewish identity is important, both to them personally and to Jews in general.

Both sides think it is important and both sides have valid cultural claim due to their descent. How is this anyone else's business?

The Great Hippo wrote:
idonno wrote:Historic origins of Christianity which literally started as a sect of Judaism that believed Christ was the messiah would indicate otherwise. Who gets to determine what makes someone "spiritually a Jew" and what gives them that right?
Literally, all the spiritual Jews. Which they did. All of them. Again, literally all the denominations of Judaism agreed on this.

Are you arguing that we shouldn't accept a requirement of Judaism proposed by literally every single denomination of Judaism? If not, then who do you think should get to set those requirements? No one?
Who sets those requirements for any other religion? They are pretty much all public domain. There are social issues with cultural appropriation but as I keep pointing out, these are people of Jewish Decent who have just as much cultural claim as anyone else. Also, you realize are disqualifying them to make a claim and then using that claim to justify disqualifying them.

The Great Hippo wrote:
idonno wrote:Also, it doesn't matter how complicated an issue Judaism is. This is no more antisemitic than the fighting between the tutsi and hutu is anti black. It is a dispute between two Semitic groups about technical issues with religion and since they aren't committing any atrocities, I don't see why anyone from the outside should care. Both groups are well within the parameters of what those responsible for the killing hate and wish to kill.
Because there are Jewish people who I love and care about. Do you think I shouldn't care about things important to the people I love and care about?

Like, I'm sorry -- but what are you trying to argue here? "Hippo, stop giving a shit about things!" sounds like the gist of it.

Because you like people on one side of a cultural dispute, you should oppose people on the other side even though the dispute has nothing to do with you. Is there something immoral about a people group of Jewish decent following a religion rooted in Jewish history wanting to incorporate Jewish practices into their faith and identify as Jewish? What exactly should anyone who doesn't believe in a more traditional Jewish faith take issue with? And how in the world does disagreeing with people you care about equate to antisemitism because you still haven't justified the claim.

arbiteroftruth
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:44 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby arbiteroftruth » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:33 pm UTC

Grop wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:The Christian families were bewildered, 'why do they hate us, the trinity is very simple it's just a 3 sided paper, we aren't polytheists how could they say that about us'


While I was born in what is historically a Catholic country (and my four grandparents were Catholics) that trinity thing that is totally not polytheism is a very hard thing to grasp. I suppose my interest would have to be much less superficial for my mind to make the necessary twists and maybe some drugs could help.


Spoilered for OT

Spoiler:
The best analogy I know of (which still isn't perfect) is that it's like having a novel, a movie, and a comic book that all tell the same story. Each one is a complete story, not merely a fraction of the story. Each of those tellings of the story exists separately and distinctly from the other two. But between all three of them, there's still only one story, not three stories.

That doesn't get into how the three persons of the Trinity specifically relate to each other in Christian theology, and it's just an abstraction which is hard to picture when we're talking about conscious entities rather than stories and media, but it's an example of the type of three-in-one relationship that's being claimed in traditional trinitarianism.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7368
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:49 pm UTC

arbiteroftruth wrote:I suspect that's what you mean in the first place, but it's worth clarifying, because "only Jews get to decide who counts as Jewish", without elaboration, is a circular argument.
Right; the consensus as determined by the leaders of their respective religious communities (which, I suspect, map well to the overall consensus).
idonno wrote:Both sides think it is important and both sides have valid cultural claim due to their descent. How is this anyone else's business?
We're not talking about an ethnic claim, we're talking about a religious claim.
idonno wrote:Who sets those requirements for any other religion?
Followers of the religion.
idonno wrote:Because you like people on one side of a cultural dispute, you should oppose people on the other side even though the dispute has nothing to do with you.
I said love, not like. And I gave this as a reason why I care, not why I agree with them.

If you're not going to take the time to read my posts, I see no reason to take the time to read yours.

User avatar
ObsessoMom
Nespresso Bomb
Posts: 922
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:28 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:00 pm UTC

I think idonno's argument can be paraphrased as follows:

"Just like Pence et al., I can't be bothered to sort out all the theological details. Basically, I'm just pissed off that other people think Pence et al. were culturally insensitive for not caring enough to sort out all the theological details. And why should they care that Pence et al. got the theological details wrong, anyway, when I don't think they matter?"

So I'll turn around and wonder why you, idonno, should care that we care that Pence et al. got it wrong.

And then it will be your turn to wonder why I care that you care that we care that Pence et al. got it wrong.

At which point I will decide that I really don't care whether you care that we care that Pence et al. got it wrong.

Toodles.

bbluewi
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:18 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby bbluewi » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:05 pm UTC

Do I have a problem with Messianic Jews identifying as Jewish, without context? No, and in fact, I find the blending of Jewish tradition with Christian belief a pretty cool concept.

Do I have a problem with Messianic Jews identifying as Jewish given that their leaders seem to be sanctimonious proselytizers not unlike the man who invited them, that the Jewish identity gives them more notoriety than a Christian one would, and despite the fact that every other Jewish sect says "hey, these guys aren't truly Jews"? Yes, yes I do. It gives me the impression that they're using the identity to get attention they wouldn't get otherwise, which isn't a cool thing.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7368
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:26 pm UTC

bbluewi wrote:Do I have a problem with Messianic Jews identifying as Jewish, without context? No, and in fact, I find the blending of Jewish tradition with Christian belief a pretty cool concept.
And it's not like that sort of thing doesn't exist -- probably without misrepresenting themselves as just another denomination of Judaism (notice how 'Messianic Jew' manages to leave out the name of their savior, the son of God! Huh; wonder why they thought it more important to call themselves 'Jews' than 'Christians'?), or engaging in endless proselytizing, or general chicanery targeting Jewish faith and representation (oh hey look it's relevant to the Pence thing).

Seriously, the more I learn about this, the more it sounds like Christians doing Judaic cosplay so they can get a foothold into Jewish communities and proselytize.

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 5448
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:51 pm UTC

If you're going to invite someone to speak about an attack on a religious center, it should probably be a person of the exact denomination of the center being attacked (e.g. you probably shouldn't send Pat Robertson to speak at a shot-up Catholic church even though they're all Christians), so the speaker Pence invited was the wrong choice one way or another, however:

Are Mormons Christians? They think they are. What if literally all Christians think otherwise? Well does "literally all" include the Mormons themselves or not? They would say it does, because they say they're Christians. That's the circular argument problem pointed out already.

(For that matter, plenty of Protestants say that Catholics aren't actually Christians, which of course Catholics disagree about vehemently. What if literally all non-Catholic Christians were in agreement about that? Would that make Catholics "officially" not Christians despite their self-identification? Or maybe religious denominations choose their own classification?)

Also WRT the Trinitarian thing, I found the claim about "three persons of one substance" much less confusing after learning enough about the history of language to better translate that to contemporary English, which is essentially "three roles of one being", not something very confusing at all. "Father", "son", and "holy spirit" are held by Trinitarians to be roles / characters / masks (the older senses of the word "person") of a singular being, the monotheistic god; not three different people in our contemporary sense of the word "person" who somehow share some kind of weird metaphysical connection to each other. In the same way that the CEO of a corporation, the president of a country club, and the representative of a Congressional district might all jointly be one single human being without that being metaphysically weird at all: those are just three "persons" (roles) of a single human "substance" (being), if we want to use confusing antiquated language to talk about it.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7368
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:06 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Are Mormons Christians? They think they are. What if literally all Christians think otherwise? Well does "literally all" include the Mormons themselves or not? They would say it does, because they say they're Christians. That's the circular argument problem pointed out already.

(For that matter, plenty of Protestants say that Catholics aren't actually Christians, which of course Catholics disagree about vehemently. What if literally all non-Catholic Christians were in agreement about that? Would that make Catholics "officially" not Christians despite their self-identification? Or maybe religious denominations choose their own classification?)
What if all Catholics rejected the idea of Christ as a savior and as being in any way divine? And demanded they be part of the classification? Also, they want to use the fact that they're classified as Christian to enter Christian spaces and proselytize to other Christians about how Christ is neither a savior nor divine?

Also, I think the circular argument isn't much of a problem when you remember that the denominations rejecting Messianic Jews as Jews predate Messianic Jews (sometimes by several thousands of years). I don't think a newcomer should get to insert themselves into the vote about whether or not they're included before the group has even had a chance to vote on whether or not the newcomer should be included.

Again: Can I declare myself to be a Jew right now? Should that declaration be treated as valid? Obviously not. There needs to be some sort of standard in regards to what constitutes the practice of Jewish theism, and relying on Jewish theists to set that standard seems like a good call. Especially if we're listening to the ones who are part of a Jewish theistic practice going back literally thousands of years.

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 5448
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:17 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Also, I think the circular argument isn't much of a problem when you remember that the denominations rejecting Messianic Jews as Jews predate Messianic Jews (sometimes by several thousands of years). I don't think a newcomer should get to insert themselves into the vote about whether or not they're included before the group has even had a chance to vote on whether or not the newcomer should be included.

That's why I started with asking about Mormons. They call themselves Christian, but they're hundreds if not thousands of years later than other groups that call themselves Christians, and a lot of those other groups say they're not real Christians. So... are they?
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

arbiteroftruth
Posts: 476
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:44 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby arbiteroftruth » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:26 am UTC

@Pfhorrest re: tritarianism

It's a bit more than just one being filling three roles though. Or at least, it's more than is captured by the metaphor using a human. The classic example I've heard in this regard is the account of Jesus' baptism, where you have the Son in human form getting baptized, the Father speaking from the heavens, and the Holy Spirit taking the form of a dove. You've got Bruce Wayne and Batman in the same room as each other.

But I suppose it's fair to describe that as three roles + omnipresence, rather than three persons but one substance. I could see those as describing the exact same thing, just from different angles.

bbluewi
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:18 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby bbluewi » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:16 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:Also, I think the circular argument isn't much of a problem when you remember that the denominations rejecting Messianic Jews as Jews predate Messianic Jews (sometimes by several thousands of years). I don't think a newcomer should get to insert themselves into the vote about whether or not they're included before the group has even had a chance to vote on whether or not the newcomer should be included.

That's why I started with asking about Mormons. They call themselves Christian, but they're hundreds if not thousands of years later than other groups that call themselves Christians, and a lot of those other groups say they're not real Christians. So... are they?

I'm gonna use the duck test. Mormons look like ducks (they practice Christian traditions) and walk like ducks (with admittedly no first-hand experience, their beliefs seem to mostly line up with other Christians, especially considering how different Catholicism and some Protestant denominations are), though one could argue they don't really quack like ducks (their leadership is pretty far out there). 2.5/3 is enough for me to call it a duck. Messianic Jews, on the other hand, look like ducks (practicing Jewish as well as Christian traditions), but they don't really walk like ducks (again with little experience, but there seems to be quite a bit of Christian belief in that system) and certainly don't quack like ducks (their leadership seems to proselytize into Christianity like instructed in the New Testament, none of which lines up with Judaism). They don't pass the duck test for being Jews, but they do pass with flying colors for being Christian.

idonno
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:34 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby idonno » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:58 am UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:I think idonno's argument can be paraphrased as follows:

"Just like Pence et al., I can't be bothered to sort out all the theological details. Basically, I'm just pissed off that other people think Pence et al. were culturally insensitive for not caring enough to sort out all the theological details. And why should they care that Pence et al. got the theological details wrong, anyway, when I don't think they matter?"
I think it was a faux pas and Pence should have been more sensitive to how the victims would view it. The fact that I disagree with their reasoning doesn't change that it hurt people who it was allegedly meant to comfort. I don't think there is anything wrong with Messianic Jews self identifying as Jewish and I think there is something wrong with attacking them for it which is what I am taking issue with.

Also, while, for the not particularly flattering reasons I stated before, I think it is probably true that this was an oversight on Pence's part, I find it very hard to believe that this wasn't deliberate on the defrocked Rabbi's part and I strongly suspect that he is an asshole.

ObsessoMom wrote:So I'll turn around and wonder why you, idonno, should care that we care that Pence et al. got it wrong.
Given my response above, I don't think this applies because my issue is with the attacking of the Messianic Jew's position. Think whatever you like about Pence.

bbluewi wrote:their leadership seems to proselytize into Christianity like instructed in the New Testament, none of which lines up with Judaism
There are Jewish groups that proselytize other Jewish groups so this only doesn't align if you pre assign them not being Jewish.

Pfhorrest wrote:That's why I started with asking about Mormons. They call themselves Christian, but they're hundreds if not thousands of years later than other groups that call themselves Christians, and a lot of those other groups say they're not real Christians. So... are they?
I classify myself as a Christian and think Mormons are a cult blatantly formed by a con man for his own personal gain but I'd still classify them as Christian.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10499
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:02 am UTC

idonno wrote:I don't think there is anything wrong with Messianic Jews self identifying as Jewish and I think there is something wrong with attacking them for it which is what I am taking issue with.


Are you Jewish? No? Then your judgment on this matter is basically the religious equivalent of 'mansplaining'.

idonno wrote:
bbluewi wrote:their leadership seems to proselytize into Christianity like instructed in the New Testament, none of which lines up with Judaism
There are Jewish groups that proselytize other Jewish groups so this only doesn't align if you pre assign them not being Jewish.


Do you not understand the difference between Jews proselytizing each other and a non-Jew proselytizing a Jew? Do you truly not understand it? Let me make it crystal fucking clear. When a Jew converts another Jew from say Orthodox to Haredi or back, there's still the same number of Jews. When a Christian converts a Jew, there's one less Jew. It is the stated goal of these people to make Judaism extinct.

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7368
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:24 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Do you not understand the difference between Jews proselytizing each other and a non-Jew proselytizing a Jew? Do you truly not understand it? Let me make it crystal fucking clear. When a Jew converts another Jew from say Orthodox to Haredi or back, there's still the same number of Jews. When a Christian converts a Jew, there's one less Jew. It is the stated goal of these people to make Judaism extinct.
It's probably also worth pointing out that there's a long, extensive, and unbroken chain of Christian efforts to achieve the cultural and spiritual extinction of Judaism (through violence, conversion, and even the literal theft of children) running from the earliest Church days all the way up to today. Given that context, any organization that proclaims itself to be Jewish while proselytizing to other Jews to accept Christ as the son of God comes off as extremely sketchy -- if not downright antisemitic.

"Hello, my fellow Jews! I'm a Jew, just like you. I like Jewish things, yes I do. By the way, have you heard about my favorite Jew -- Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior?"
Last edited by The Great Hippo on Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:27 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

asoban
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:00 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby asoban » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:27 am UTC

Clarifying question, Chabad messianism believes that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the Messiah. Are they Jewish? If so, then why not ones who think that Jesus was the Messiah?

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7368
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:29 am UTC

asoban wrote:Clarifying question, Chabad messianism believes that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the Messiah. Are they Jewish? If so, then why not ones who think that Jesus was the Messiah?
Not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think it's just the notion that Christ is the messiah -- it's the notion that the messiah is, in fact, divine.

User avatar
natraj
Posts: 1895
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm UTC
Location: away from Omelas

Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:37 am UTC

yeah like it's honestly 300% ridiculous that a bunch of non-jews in this thread are trying to explain at us how literally all of jewry is wrong on this issue and y'all have the correct pov but the short answer is that a) lots of jewish people think chabad is WRONG but they're still jewish; b) the christian notion of jesus as messiah is literally fundamentally incompatible with the most basic tenets of judaism; we do not believe in an incarnate divine being, it fundamentally goes against the jewish concept of g-d. there are also A Lot of reasons why jesus does not even fit into the jewish concept of messiah but i don't think you all really want an entire torah lesson here you just want to explain how you are actually correct about these christians being jewish. (btw only about half of messianics are ethnically jewish. zero messianics are spiritually jewish. people in this thread are conflating these things a lot and talking as if all messianics are, in fact, jewish people who have converted to christianity, and that's not even the case. and jews for jesus, in particular, was literally founded as an evangelical mission of the baptist church.)
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

idonno
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:34 am UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby idonno » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:37 am UTC

EDIT: I think I'm done with this. It seems unlikely that anything other than pissing people off is happening. I think we have distinctly different views of how you divide up religious groups and no good is going to come of further debate.

EDIT 2 I would just like to leave this bit of my post responding to CorruptUser. I'm not arguing whether you should care because as I have already said "It seems like an internal issue for competing groups in their culture to resolve" and "I understand why Jewish groups wouldn't like them I just don't see why anyone else should care one way or the other". You distinctly fall into the group that I did not say shouldn't care about it

User avatar
The Great Hippo
Swans ARE SHARP
Posts: 7368
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:43 am UTC
Location: behind you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:46 am UTC

natraj wrote:(btw only about half of messianics are ethnically jewish. zero messianics are spiritually jewish. people in this thread are conflating these things a lot and talking as if all messianics are, in fact, jewish people who have converted to christianity, and that's not even the case. and jews for jesus, in particular, was literally founded as an evangelical mission of the baptist church.)
And the 'rabbi' who spoke at Pence's rally was, of course, from that particular strain ('Jews for Jesus').

Which means you have a "rabbi" from a movement that was founded by Christian Baptists to make Jewish people extinct (spiritually and culturally) providing the prayer for victims of violence perpetuated by a man who wanted to make Jewish people extinct (literally).
idonno wrote:It is that stated goal of a lot of atheists to make religion extinct. Does that make them bad?
Do atheists dress up as Catholic priests and run churches while trying to convince any Christians who walk in that they ought to abandon their God?

Seriously, try exerting some actual thought before you post. You're not even trying to address people's points; you're just offering knee-jerk platitudes based on the most shallow reading possible.
idonno wrote:EDIT: I think I'm done with this. It seems unlikely that anything other than pissing people off is happening. I think we have distinctly different views of how you divide up religious groups and no good is going to come of further debate.
That's probably for the best. You're not putting effort into understanding people's points of view, here.
Last edited by The Great Hippo on Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:49 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
natraj
Posts: 1895
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm UTC
Location: away from Omelas

Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:49 am UTC

idonno wrote:I'm not applying any different standards to one religion or another. Is there something special about Judaism that should disallow people from self identifying into it while allowing people to do so into other religions (Maybe you don't think this is the case for other religions either in which case we simply have a basic difference in definition of what it means to a member of a religion)?


different religions have different standards for what it means to be a member of them. this is pretty basic. some religions are very open and traditionally all you need to do to convert is decide that you want to follow them. other religions are not open at all and literally accept little to no converts whatsoever/have strict standards or rituals for who can join/basically disallow joining either at all or outside of narrow circumstances such as marrying into/otherwise joining a family who is already of that religion. (many ethnoreligions are like this.) it is literally not for people outside those religions to decide. if the tradition of a faith says that you join it solely by belief or practice then cool! go for it! if however it says that you need to do x ritual before you are considered a member, or be accepted by other members before you are considered a member, or adhere to x tenets, etc, and you don't do those things, but still call yourself that religion, while everyone else who practices it says you aren't, wellllll!
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 2112
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:49 am UTC

I think it's long past time Poe's Law hit this thread, so here goes: Hitler never tried to exterminate Messianic Jews.

:roll:

How about I call myself a Republican For Mohammed (Peace Be Upon Him), gather like-minded people, get funding from Iran (and Russia and China, for some reason) and start holding meetings where I tell members of the US Republican Party that they ought to increase taxes on corporate profits and income above $50,000 per annum, add another tax bracket starting at $150,000 per annum, close tax loopholes, make the first $15,000 per annum tax-free, make many essential goods and services exempt from sales tax, increase sales tax on never-essential luxury items, fund necessary medical procedures (which does not include breast enlargement beyond a C cup or tooth whitening beyond stain removal, before anyone asks), subsidise public transport between low-income neighbourhoods and areas of job opportunities, increase federal oversight of district, county and state police forces, enforce strict controls on pollution, restrict gun ownership and gun carrying, stand up for intersex, transgender, agender, bisexual, homosexual, polyamorous and asexual people's rights and relationships, stop eating pork, abstain from alcohol, pray towards the Kaaba Stone at noon every day, fast (but not starve themselves silly) for a month every year to gain understanding of what it is to be poor (and not stuff themselves with sweets the minute the Sun goes down every night), cover themselves at least down to the knees and elbows and up to the collarbone whenever they're in public, make sure every child gets full sex education from an atheist with at least an MSc in a related field of biology before the age of 10, make condoms freely available, tax the heck out of fossil fuels, subsidise domestic solar power installations, institute a student exchange program with Iran to foster better international relations and accept Her Royal Highness The Duchess of Cambridge, Princess Catherine, as their spiritual guide?

Can I do that, and expect everyone to accept that I'm as much a US Republican as anyone else on Earth? Can I do that, perform the memorial rites at Bill O'Reilly's funeral and demand that nobody take offence?

There's a rather big difference between "Are Mormons Christians?" and "Are Messianics Jewish?" It has to do with some events around 2000 years ago, which can be summarised as follows:
Some people started preaching that God had taken human form as the Messiah and walked the Earth with the name Jesus. These people were thereafter distinguished from Jews by their belief in this messianic figure.
Mormons (claim to) believe that Jesus the Messiah walked the Earth.
Jews, per definition by which Christians are distinct from Jews, don't.

If you want to trace the DNA back to the Jew-rassic (sorry!), sure, some of 'em are Semitic. So are Palestinians. Religiously, "Jews for Jesus" are no more Jewish than Hassan Rouhani. The difference is I think he's less of an arsehole.

As for cultural similarity, well, swifts and swallows have some similarities, no?

Image
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

User avatar
eran_rathan
Mostly Wrong
Posts: 1844
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:36 pm UTC
Location: in your ceiling, judging you

Re: Trump presidency

Postby eran_rathan » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:50 pm UTC

idonno wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:
idonno wrote:
The Great Hippo wrote:
idonno wrote:I'm pretty sure the people practicing it aren't only practicing it for the purpose of proselytizing other Jews.
Then why not just call themselves "Christians", or "Hebrew Christians"? Why is it so important that they be Jewish?

Because they consider themselves a continuation of that religious cultural heritage and find it important. Why do you care so much about how they religiously identify themselves.
...because... members of the Jewish faith... care... about who identifies as Jewish? Clearly, they think it's important. Are you arguing I shouldn't?

Would you prefer to talk about this topic with someone of the Jewish faith? They could probably explain it better than I could, anyway. There's probably a lot of them here on the forums who could elaborate on why Jewish identity is important, both to them personally and to Jews in general.

Both sides think it is important and both sides have valid cultural claim due to their descent. How is this anyone else's business?


Because the Messianic 'Jews' take our heritage and use it to try to convert us - much like people taking Native American heritage and using it to try to convert them. Why is this a difficult topic for you to understand?
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
"Google tells me you are not unique. You are, however, wrong."
nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:25 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:That's why I started with asking about Mormons. They call themselves Christian, but they're hundreds if not thousands of years later than other groups that call themselves Christians, and a lot of those other groups say they're not real Christians. So... are they?


Eh. I leave it to the religions to sort out who the "true faith" is*. But I ain't gonna invite a Mormon to preside over another denomination's event. The former is a never ending battle, but the latter is just an obvious error. One doesn't need to define what Christianity is to understand that the two groups have a disagreement.

bbluewi wrote:They don't pass the duck test for being Jews, but they do pass with flying colors for being Christian.


Not taking communion does muddle things somewhat, as does not going to church on Sundays. Both of those are pretty common for Christian faiths, but on both of those, Messianic Judaism falls on the Jewish side of the fence where there's an either/or choice. So, it's sticky.

CorruptUser wrote:Do you not understand the difference between Jews proselytizing each other and a non-Jew proselytizing a Jew? Do you truly not understand it? Let me make it crystal fucking clear. When a Jew converts another Jew from say Orthodox to Haredi or back, there's still the same number of Jews. When a Christian converts a Jew, there's one less Jew. It is the stated goal of these people to make Judaism extinct.


This is slightly circular. If you view Messianic Judaists as Jews, the problem doesn't exist.

That said, it's in the nature of evangelical beliefs. If you convert people to your faith, you're driving out other faiths. Most faiths being convinced that theirs is the right one, this is endemic in attempting to convert others. It isn't specific even to Christianity. All beliefs displace others to some extent.

But, in the end, none of these are questions Pence needs to solve in order to realize he's making a bit of a mess of the event.

*They're kind of Christian. Like, halvsies, maybe? They believe in Christ. But they also diverge significantly on other things. It's kind of akin to Messianic Judaism, sure. The "is/is not" strict divide is difficult when religions have such a spectrum of differences.

User avatar
natraj
Posts: 1895
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm UTC
Location: away from Omelas

Re: Trump presidency

Postby natraj » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:35 pm UTC

people in Christian normative cultures, regardless of whether or not they themselves are Christian, internalize Christianity to such a huge degree that it's evidently impossible for y'all to even conceive of religion in a way that DOESN'T try to impose Christian centric mindset on it.

like, the idea that religion is solely a matter of personal belief and therefore its up to individuals to self identify as practitioners rather than up to the community to arbitrate itself? sure that works for evangelical type "just accept jesus into your heart, bam, you're christian" religion but it is not done immutable characteristic of All Religions.

even the idea that belief itself must displace other belief (the idea that Your Religion Is The Only True Religion and the others have it all wrong, therefore it's some kind of battle of faiths to see who wins) is literally not even a concept in lots of religions! thru much of asia plenty of religions coexist (i don't mean in a human sense, people are fighting bullshit wars over nonsense all the time, i mean in a sense of many people fundamentally do NOT care if you practice multiple religions at once! or think it's 100% valid for you both to say that your beliefs are right! the idea that you need to convince other people of the superiority of your faith *in order to validate your faith* is Not remotely universal)
jewish people btw largely don't believe that we have the final authority in spiritual correctness. we just believe that what we practice is correct *for us* and literally *is not binding* on anyone who isn't jewish.
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:02 pm UTC

Judaism is a good deal less evangelical than Christianity, sure. I've literally never had them knock on my door or give me a tract. I actually think that's probably one of the main conflicts. It's a very different approach.

But seeking to convert outsiders is fairly common for religion in general.

natraj wrote: thru much of asia plenty of religions coexist (i don't mean in a human sense, people are fighting bullshit wars over nonsense all the time, i mean in a sense of many people fundamentally do NOT care if you practice multiple religions at once!


Sometimes, sure. Sometimes it's messy. Usually, religions displace one another, actively or not. Sometimes bits of one get added onto others, and you get some mishmash of the two as the resulting dominant strain. I mean, easter eggs ain't exactly in the bible, after all. However, there are sufficiently few practitioners of multiple religions that it usually isn't even mentioned in surveys of religious practitioners, even worldwide ones.

For the most part, I believe that the Messianic Christians are only that, and do not also practice another faith. They're believers in a hybrid faith of the two, not believers in both faiths.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10499
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:15 pm UTC

Judaism explicitly forbids proselytizing non-Jews. We accept converts, sometimes more begrudgingly than should be warranted because, y'know, racism and all, but we aren't allowed to seek them out.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:29 pm UTC

That makes sense. I *thought* that was the case, but I wasn't sure it was quite that strict. In general, as an atheist, it's nice. The door knocking is a bit tedious, sometimes.

User avatar
Angua
Don't call her Delphine.
Posts: 5933
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:42 pm UTC
Location: UK/[St. Kitts and] Nevis Occasionally, I migrate to the US for a bit

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Angua » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:41 pm UTC

There are some sects of Christianity (not many) that observe the Sabbath on a Saturday. Just because that seems to be coming up a lot as proof of not-Christian.
Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
GNU Terry Pratchett

User avatar
ObsessoMom
Nespresso Bomb
Posts: 922
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:28 pm UTC

Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:58 pm UTC

Angua wrote:There are some sects of Christianity (not many) that observe the Sabbath on a Saturday. Just because that seems to be coming up a lot as proof of not-Christian.


Yes. And I'm also concerned about the number of participants in this thread who seem to think that believing that Jesus was/is the Messiah is "proof of Christian," too. IT'S NOT.

Muslims and members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but they are not trinitarian (which is how almost all groups that self-identify as Christian define Christianity).

Seriously, people, spend a few minutes Googling the basic tenets of Abrahamic religions before you try schooling the rest of us.

User avatar
Weeks
Hey Baby, wanna make a fortnight?
Posts: 2023
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:41 am UTC
Location: Ciudad de Panamá, Panamá

Re: Trump presidency

Postby Weeks » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:06 pm UTC

Would rather discuss the thought-provoking thoughts of myself and other fellow rational athiests because I really believe that rationality is better, quod erat demonstrandum, as I believe Aristotle said it best.
TaintedDeity wrote:Tainted Deity
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
Dthen wrote:FUCK CHRISTMAS FUCK EVERYTHING FUCK YOU TOO FUCK OFF


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AlgaeSea, Sableagle and 10 guests