Trump presidency

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:34 pm UTC

slinches wrote:That is a good point, addams. What options are there to deter the types of interference that are being employed these days? International law and sanctions don't really leave much room for a proportional response, as far as I'm aware. The tools at our disposal seem to be either ineffective or severe enough to be provocative. Do we risk going to war over this? Do we interfere in their elections in a like-for-like retaliation (which seems ethically dubious)? What do we do about candidates that receive a benefit? How can we hold our own accountable for accepting that support without potentially giving foreign bad actors another tool to interfere?

Not trying to say it's an unsolvable problem. I just don't know the answers. Maybe it's not as bad of a situation as it appears, but if it isn't, why aren't we already using those tools effectively?
All of you questions are good one.
Maybe it's not as bad of a situation as it appears,
That my dear Slug is a highly problematic under reaction.

What??
Do we have AIDS of the body politic??
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby slinches » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:06 am UTC

addams wrote:
slinches wrote:Maybe it's not as bad of a situation as it appears,
That my dear Slug is a highly problematic under reaction.

All I meant by that was hoping someone knew of a solution I just didn't see, not that the problem isn't as bad as it appears.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:47 pm UTC

What options are there to deter the types of interference that are being employed these days? International law and sanctions don't really leave much room for a proportional response, as far as I'm aware. The tools at our disposal seem to be either ineffective or severe enough to be provocative.

This is mostly a domestic issue, I think.
You can solve it domestically, through legal means or because foreign interference is a scandal that stops politicians from getting elected. Or your country mostly accept its, domestically. Or fail to stop it, which is the same effect from a different angle.

When you have to focus on the international side, you're halfway to giving up already. After all, if you cannot rally support for domestic actions against interference, it is unlikely that you will find support or effective international action.

In other words: the main problem is not when Russia tries to interfere with elections. The main problem is when people cheer that Russia helped their side to win.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:03 pm UTC

Stayin' classy:
Police and the security services are on standby to investigate the release of Sir Kim Darroch’s classified emails

He tweeted: “I have been very critical about the way the UK and Prime Minister Theresa May handled Brexit.

“What a mess she and her representatives have created. I told her how it should be done, but she decided to go another way.

“I do not know the Ambassador, but he is not liked or well thought of within the US. We will no longer deal with him.

“The good news for the wonderful United Kingdom is that they will soon have a new Prime Minister. While I thoroughly enjoyed the magnificent State Visit last month, it was the Queen who I was most impressed with!”

In the diplomatic cables, Sir Kim said media reports of “vicious infighting and chaos” were “mostly true” and he questioned whether it “will ever look competent”.

He advised that “you need to make your points simple, even blunt” in order to communicate with the President.


UK ambassador Sir Kim Darroch ‘bullied out of job’ after fierce criticism over leaked emails

Sir Kim Darroch sent shockwaves through the Government and the civil service by resigning as ambassador to the United States after facing fierce criticism from Donald Trump.

Friends said that he recognised his position was untenable after he was frozen out of events in Washington and that the final straw was Boris Johnson’s refusal to support him fully in a televised Tory leadership debate.


The head of the UK’s Diplomatic Service has said the leaking of Sir Kim Darruch’s confidential emails to the press constitutes as the “biggest breach of trust” in his career.

He also said Donald Trump’s refusal to work with Sir Kim is the first time in his career a head of state has dismissed working with a British ambassador and that even hostile states had not taken such action in his nearly 37 years in the department.

“This is not the first time a British ambassador has left post or resigned because of actions against the host government but usually they are governments with whom we have problematic relations rather than friendly relations,” Sir Simon said.

Chairman Tom Tugendhat said: “Even with states which could be described as hostile or not friendly, you know of no occasion where the head of state has refused to work with the British envoy?”

“Correct,” Sir Simon replied.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:18 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:Long ass post....
[/quote]
Going forward, can you post a tldr or summary? With only 1 link?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sableagle » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:41 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Sableagle wrote:Long ass post....

Going forward, can you post a tldr or summary? With only 1 link?[/quote]

Well, sure. Link to this thread, and "guy's a clueless arsewipe" as the summary, good enough? That's three separate articles there. There's one link to each, with enough of each to get the gist across.

If that's too much, just get a mod to delete the post and let Fractal_Tangent and Second_Talon make up whatever they want you to believe I said. That works too. I'll just wander off and debunk a flat earther, or something.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yakk » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:51 pm UTC

Post a link. Include some text from the link. Then put your own words in talking about it.

Posting 3 links with 5 paragraphs of quoted text and nothing from you, well, you could just do this:
https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqOQg ... WTFLQUFQAQ
and walk away?
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:39 pm UTC

Yeah you pretty much do this always and I have reported your posts many, many times. You would benefit from using the spoiler button a whole lot more. As it is, you're driving people away from reading your posts.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby freezeblade » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:01 pm UTC

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48982172

On Trump's Racist tweets, where he told congresswomen of color to leave the country, claiming they "originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe", before suggesting they "go back".

GOP has stayed quiet about it. So when I show this to all of those (some of which are in here) that claim that Trump was by no means racist, they'll change their tune in light of obvious evidence, right? Who am I kidding, they likely agreed with him.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yakk » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:03 pm UTC

Obviously it wasn't racist.

It was just using their visible racial characteristics and heritage as an excuse to treat them as lesser Americans who should be kicked out of the country, like the thousands of other non-white people he has placed in concentration camps.

That isn't literally enslaving black people, or placing people in poison-gas showers, so it isn't racism.

Keep up.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Mutex » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:04 pm UTC

freezeblade wrote:claiming they "originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe"

He's right about the three that are US born.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:22 pm UTC

requareding Sableagle's post:
ech...I read it and got the 'just' of the articles from the quoted part.
Therefore, I did not have to open the links and take my chances with slow internet and paywalls.

Spoilers don't really fix the problem of slow internet some of us have.
The quotes Sableagle used allows us to let our eyes drift over the text.

Jeeze...You two;
pick, pick pick...


As for you, Freezeblade;
There are people that are beginning to see the light.

For others Racism is a feature not a bug.
oh, crap...Do we have to fall back on basic human decency??
It might work...but, history tells us it is a long game.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:29 pm UTC

Trump isn't racist; it has nothing to do with racism. He keeps saying racist stuff just because he knows it will help him get reelected.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zohar » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:38 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Trump isn't racist; it has nothing to do with racism. He keeps saying racist stuff just because he knows it will help him get reelected.

I mean that definitely is being racist. It doesn't matter if he goes "haha jk lol" before he goes to bed every night.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:51 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:Trump isn't racist; it has nothing to do with racism. He keeps saying racist stuff just because he knows it will help him get reelected.
Wrong.

He has a very long history of being racist.
Do you need citations??
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Yakk » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:02 pm UTC

"I'm not racist. I just express racist views both in public and in private. I also behave differently towards people based on their race. But I claim to be not-racist, so obviously I am not."

I mean, he isn't literally burning crosses and personally wearing a KKK hood. Racism isn't, like, his hobby.

But racism not being your hobby doesn't mean you aren't racist. You don't have to have a "TODO" list that says "oppress black people" on it to be a racist.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Sizik » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:09 pm UTC

Think there's a bit of Poe's Law going on here.
she/they
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:45 pm UTC

Yes.
And; We have a Real Problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGI0InEqheI
BBC news report about Racist Violence online.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ijuin » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:48 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:
freezeblade wrote:claiming they "originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe"

He's right about the three that are US born.

You, sir, win a cookie.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:52 am UTC

Yakk wrote:"I'm not racist. I just express racist views both in public and in private. I also behave differently towards people based on their race. But I claim to be not-racist, so obviously I am not."

I mean, he isn't literally burning crosses and personally wearing a KKK hood. Racism isn't, like, his hobby.

But racism not being your hobby doesn't mean you aren't racist. You don't have to have a "TODO" list that says "oppress black people" on it to be a racist.
This, but also: Just because acting racist benefits me somehow doesn't mean my racism is therefore purely performative.

You can both engage in racism as a political ploy and still embrace racism. If anything, it's probably easier. Think of it as method acting.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:56 am UTC

Does it matter whether whether the man inciting mob violence against you is doing it because he sincerely believes you are a threat to society, or simply because he enjoys the power trip of inciting mob violence?

Aren't you equally harmed, either way?

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:11 am UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Does it matter whether whether the man inciting mob violence against you is doing it because he sincerely believes you are a threat to society, or simply because he enjoys the power trip of inciting mob violence?

Aren't you equally harmed, either way?
well...Kind of...
Okay; Never mind;
That was a choice between two very bad things.

He says it's Okay to use his voice to harm others 'because a lot of people agree with him'.
He is getting more Hilterish by the day.

Godwin!
I lose.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Quercus » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:15 am UTC

On the whole racist or just pandering to racists thing - while intent can be a useful thing to hash out in a personal context, it's less so in a public, political one. Once something is a deliberate act, which one could reasonably forsee the consequences and interpretation of, intent ceases to be a very useful thing to discuss IMO. I don't really care per se about Trump's personal thoughts or moral values - I care about his public actions. Bringing in intent just leaves way too much wiggle-room for those acting in bad faith to obfuscate the issue. If it quacks like a racist, I'm going to call it a racist.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby orthogon » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:08 pm UTC

If we need to pin down at this point exactly which circle of hell Trump should be condemned to, I reckon that pandering to racists without being one surely has the edge in terms of moral turpitude. It suggests that you know that people of other ethnicities are equal and deserve equal rights, respect, etc., and yet you deliberately act in contradiction of your own moral convictions out of self-interest. Your straight-up racist, by comparison, could just be a genuinely benighted idiot.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:43 pm UTC

Basically, if you look up anywhere conservatives are talking, they are just basically complaining about people calling them racist while arguing how the statement either wasn't racist, or that he's owning the libs, or that by getting the libs to talk about racism they are helping Trump because people are sick of hearing about racism...

Trump is a moral nihilist; he sees life as a game where the only goal is to win. He is also an elitist and thinks success is a matter of character, and thus he thinks he is of superior character, and that poor people are of inferior character. These are effectively the common beliefs among the right in America, and while they don't argue them specifically, their beliefs are consistent with that and their racism comes from that. Republicans are just as self aware as Trump in this regard.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:58 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:It suggests that you know that people of other ethnicities are equal and deserve equal rights, respect, etc., and yet you deliberately act in contradiction of your own moral convictions out of self-interest.

I think it's not so much that he's contradicting his moral convictions to that effect, nor that he has moral convictions to the contrary, but rather that he has no moral convictions at all. People of other ethnicities may or may not deserve equal rights etc, but he doesn't care to figure out whether they do either way, just that it's politically expedient to act like they don't.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Link » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:05 am UTC

Of-fucking-course the racist tweets are a hit with his base. Best-case scenario, 72% of Republicans are unabashed racist-apologists. And in the House, all but four Republicans are. Bloody hell.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Chen » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:40 am UTC

Link wrote:Of-fucking-course the racist tweets are a hit with his base. Best-case scenario, 72% of Republicans are unabashed racist-apologists. And in the House, all but four Republicans are. Bloody hell.


Is this really surprising? The uninformed see this as pure MAGA statement and are likely those who increased the approval rating. Those who are informed enough to see the racism of the post and who were part of his base clearly would continue to support it. The congresspeople are just falling in line with their base. Self-serving over principle is hardly a surprise for the vast majority of politicians. Those 4 who crossed party lines almost certainly did so in an attempt to appeal to independents before re-election. I’d be shocked if thet actually did so out of principle.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Link » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:07 pm UTC

Not necessarily surprising, no, but it further cements the idea that a large majority of Republicans are in fact irredeemable sacks of human detritus. And considering the number of people voting for the GOP, that's a lot of detritus indeed...

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:32 pm UTC

The congresspeople are just falling in line with their base. Self-serving over principle is hardly a surprise for the vast majority of politicians.

Or more simple, their principles are close to Trump's tweets?

If lots of people agree with it, why assume that the politicians are different? Lots of them agree as well.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby iamspen » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:01 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:If lots of people agree with it, why assume that the politicians are different? Lots of them agree as well.


And once again, whether they personally agree or not, the results are the same. Pretending to be racist is racist.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby sardia » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:06 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
The congresspeople are just falling in line with their base. Self-serving over principle is hardly a surprise for the vast majority of politicians.

Or more simple, their principles are close to Trump's tweets?

If lots of people agree with it, why assume that the politicians are different? Lots of them agree as well.

Because they backtrack whenever the winds change. Remember how gungho everyone was during the Cheney Bush Era? These politicians are there followers who sometimes sneak parts of their agenda while waiting for the leader to fail. Since Trump hasn't failed yet, they haven't abandoned him. (Approval rating hasn't fallen below 32% nor did they lose a bunch of Senate seats.)
Edit yes they are looking out for themselves (mostly cuz the ones who resisted lost in 2018)

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:26 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
Zamfir wrote:
The congresspeople are just falling in line with their base. Self-serving over principle is hardly a surprise for the vast majority of politicians.

Or more simple, their principles are close to Trump's tweets?

If lots of people agree with it, why assume that the politicians are different? Lots of them agree as well.

Because they backtrack whenever the winds change. Remember how gungho everyone was during the Cheney Bush Era? These politicians are there followers who sometimes sneak parts of their agenda while waiting for the leader to fail. Since Trump hasn't failed yet, they haven't abandoned him. (Approval rating hasn't fallen below 32% nor did they lose a bunch of Senate seats.)
Edit yes they are looking out for themselves (mostly cuz the ones who resisted lost in 2018)
(sigh...) The People need and want Courage, Intelligence and a Solid Moral Core demonstrated by their representatives.

To be fair; Cheeto may look like he has that to the While Nationalists, White Supremacists, the KKK and the FOX Only viewing crowd.
I'd like to think the first three are marginal groups. the FOX Only viewing crowd is large, tends toward old and is easily manipulated.

I have seen Seth Smith and Chris Walace speak the Truth on FOX.
But, the Opinion and Entertainment portions of the programing are ...Awful!

There is a glimmer of hope.
Four Republicans 'broke' with the Party to vote in condemnation of the Racist Tweets.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Zamfir » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:54 pm UTC

iamspen wrote:
Zamfir wrote:If lots of people agree with it, why assume that the politicians are different? Lots of them agree as well.


And once again, whether they personally agree or not, the results are the same. Pretending to be racist is racist.

The results are not the same, really not.

For one, elected officials are not always in the public eye. They are not always watched by potential voters They also make important decisions that are more shielded, where they have much freedom to act on their own personal ideas. It matters what those personal ideas are.

And it is about more than politicians. For many people (probably including me), it is very comforting to believe that racism is restricted to "marginal" groups. The old, the ignorant. There is a whole media genre about the White Working Class, assuring their non-working class readers that racism is a low-class phenomenon .

If politicians are only pretending to get votes, then that is a problem about politicians only. If they are not pretending, then the uncomfortable conclusion is that the racism is widespread, and includes all other kinds of powerful people.

Bluntly put: it is very tempting for me to believe that the structure of society is not very racist. The structure that gave me a job and some money and all that, surely not because I am white but because I am worthy. I can keep believing that, if the strong and vocal racists are marginal, and politicians are only pandering. It is much harder to believe that, if the politicians and other powerful people themselves look down on minorities.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Link » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:15 pm UTC

The fact that a politician from a big party can spout racist things without being condemned by said party already shows that racism is widespread among the powerful, regardless of their intent for spouting them. And the fact that openly saying racist things can get them lots of votes shows that it's also widespread among the general populace. Intent isn't magic, especially if you're a public figure, and especially if you're a world leader.

As for those figures potentially doing something different behind the scenes, I really don't believe anyone whose moral standards are low enough to publicly paint themselves as a racist in order to get votes will choose a more moderate option once the spotlight is off them.

Though frankly, the whole point is moot anyway if you ask me: anyone who knowingly and willingly says racist things in public (and then doubles down when confronted) is a racist, end of. You can debate about how racist they are, depending on whether or not they "bellyfeel racism" or whatever, but a racist's a racist.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby Thesh » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:52 pm UTC

The problem is, in part, that to conservatives you literally have to utter the words "I hate black people" in a setting in which humor has never been used in order to be called a racist; in part that they know that if they admit that their inherited wealth does come from genocide, slavery, war, and ecological devastation, but don't want to give it up themselves; in part that they have received a government education that taught them nothing but how great America is and the excuses for our atrocities; in part that the vast majority of our media is either deliberately trying to push a narrative of "Liberals are literally a threat to your future and your family", or saying "Well, both sides have good arguments about whether or not people deserve access to healthy food, here's a kitten stuck in a tree" to minimize offending their viewers (aka extreme far-left socialist antifa fake news).

The reality is that the right has never delivered any demonstrable improvement to the lives of Americans, they worship their traditions but ignore the atrocities surrounding them, and the only people left that haven't fled the right become bound together by uncritical solidarity out of a mutual interest to stop the left. In the end, there are two types of people on the right - those that think this world is truly the best we can do and believe all the lies, and those that don't really care what the truth is and simply see this as in their best interest. What is important is that they are both willing to vote for fascists and not willing to stand up against them, and the Republican party is overrun with opportunists while the centrists will sit around debating whether or not the left is too extreme in it's opposition to genocide. That's what fascism is all about.
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Re: Trump presidency

Postby The Great Hippo » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:21 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Bluntly put: it is very tempting for me to believe that the structure of society is not very racist. The structure that gave me a job and some money and all that, surely not because I am white but because I am worthy. I can keep believing that, if the strong and vocal racists are marginal, and politicians are only pandering. It is much harder to believe that, if the politicians and other powerful people themselves look down on minorities.
To be fair, "politician" is one of those professions where pandering to racists while maintaining plausible deniability can be why you got the job. Not saying you're wrong or that it isn't a good point, but a judge or a CEO doesn't typically get their position just by figuring out how to pander to racists without convincing everyone they're racists. Politicians effectively invented dog whistling for this entire reason: Pandering is part of their job description.

(Trump, of course, demonstrates that you can just pander to racists without even bothering with that whole "dog whistling" thing. I'm pretty sure if he screamed "lynch all n*****s" on Fox and Friends, Republicans would just say "yeah okay that looks bad but remember that one time Ihlan Omar criticized Israel?")

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:58 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:The problem is, in part, that to conservatives you literally have to utter the words "I hate black people" in a setting in which humor has never been used in order to be called a racist; in part that they know that if they admit that their inherited wealth does come from genocide, slavery, war, and ecological devastation, but don't want to give it up themselves; in part that they have received a government education that taught them nothing but how great America is and the excuses for our atrocities; in part that the vast majority of our media is either deliberately trying to push a narrative of "Liberals are literally a threat to your future and your family", or saying "Well, both sides have good arguments about whether or not people deserve access to healthy food, here's a kitten stuck in a tree" to minimize offending their viewers (aka extreme far-left socialist antifa fake news).

The reality is that the right has never delivered any demonstrable improvement to the lives of Americans, they worship their traditions but ignore the atrocities surrounding them, and the only people left that haven't fled the right become bound together by uncritical solidarity out of a mutual interest to stop the left. In the end, there are two types of people on the right - those that think this world is truly the best we can do and believe all the lies, and those that don't really care what the truth is and simply see this as in their best interest. What is important is that they are both willing to vote for fascists and not willing to stand up against them, and the Republican party is overrun with opportunists while the centrists will sit around debating whether or not the left is too extreme in it's opposition to genocide. That's what fascism is all about.


Honestly, I think a lot of the people who support Trump are afraid of LGBT telling them how to live and "corrupting" things like churches, boy scouts, marriage, and other things. They've got a persecution complex because of the events of the past like the wedding cake, that one Davis lady, and other stuff. So it doesn't matter what Trump does. As long as he "keeps the LGBT (they use a different word) away from their rights (and what they hold sacred)".

Though I've also read a lot of 13/90 comments as well so racism is there too.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby gd1 » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:06 am UTC

I suspect that the Trump Supporters don't care what Trump does because he is doing what they want and ignoring the consequences. He's using executive orders to persecute people they don't like. That's the "promises kept" deal. I'm not sure what will happen next election even if Trump loses.
There is no emotion more useless in life than hate.

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Re: Trump presidency

Postby addams » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:15 am UTC

Gack! Now can AnyOne support that Creep!
Don't answer...The people of Germany had 'reasons'.

They had better propaganda!
We don't get to use that excuse.

To be fair 3 million more Americans voted against him than for him.
And; That was WITH the lies and compromised voting systems.

Rigged!
He said it was Rigged, 'cause he Rigged it.

Like everything else in his life.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


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