Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

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Ginger
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:16 am UTC

Wow. Pfhorrest is calling me a man in disguise too! More kinds of sexual harassment yay. And fuck feminists all of them especially the radical kind straight down into the flames of Hell. They treated me like the dirt beneath their pretty-pretty pedicured feet. Normal radical feminism hates-hates transgender women and will manipulate them/sexually harass them because of their supposed male privilege or male energy garbage. They use their rhetoric to beat you down and then practically request you to lick them in naughty places about their opinions of how much transgender people suck, they're stealing/buying away womanhood with surgeries and hormones and they want you out of their spaces now. The excuse Miss Q and her lot used was that I was actually stalking them to prey on young women. Go straight down to Hell Radical Feminism. *Princess waves to it as it dies and goes to Hell.*
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby jewish_scientist » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:12 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Thesh wrote:Just because... mean something.

Basically, you are saying that CorruptUser made the Appeal to Authority fallacy. The problem with your criticism is that this fallacy only happens when the Authority is not knowledgeable in the topic under discussion. In order for this to be a Appeal to Authority fallacy, academia needs to be bad at its job. If you can prove that, then your criticism stand.


Thesh wrote:The problem with Hollywood is the same as any other centralized industry - people like Harvey Weinstein, purely through wealth and the influence that brings, have massive influence over what films get made and who gets put in those films. If you want to fix that problem, you need to decentralize the industry and make it so no one person or small group of individuals controls the purse-strings. However, you can't fix the problem just by fixing one industry - the power of any worker is dependent on the power of all workers, and without addressing the greater wealth and income inequality issues, there would still be a lot of problems with exploitation.

These socio-economical structures came into existence for a reason, namely its dramatically increase efficiency. If you decentralize without doing complex stuff to compensate for the lose of efficiency, the goods produced will be much worse in quality and quantity. In the case of the film industry, this means that movies, particularly block busters, would be less entertaining and come out less often.1 Do you think Marvel could have produced 26 AAA movies in just a decade2 if it did not have a bunch of money and talented artists?

CorruptUser wrote:As there is no professional exam or certification required to declare yourself a feminist

The same can be said about the Modernists, Post-Modernists, Romantics, Impressionists, Marxist, Capitalist, Socialist, Realists, and Objectivists. What is your point?

How to prove feminists wrong:
1: Tell them that women receive privileges just like men.
2: Wait for them to say that is not true or is only true in trivial cases.
3: Tell them that Abused Boys by Mic Hunter, a practicing therapist and leading researcher on sexually abused boys, says that boys who are raped by women are taught by the media and other cultural institutions that they are fortunate and should be thankful for the experience and that female child molesters getting a slap on the wrist for the same actions male child molesters get extremely punished for[url=Sentencing disparities in child-sex-assault cases point to double standard]3[/url].



1) This is not the best example. Because some artists do better (a.k.a. more efficient) work when they have less resources, it is possible for a decrease in resources to result in an increase in good

2) I am counting only the ones in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, including ones those that have not come out yet.

3) https://www.denverpost.com/2011/08/20/s ... -standard/

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby PAstrychef » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:13 pm UTC

Ginger wrote:Wow. Pfhorrest is calling me a man in disguise too! More kinds of sexual harassment yay. And fuck feminists all of them especially the radical kind straight down into the flames of Hell. They treated me like the dirt beneath their pretty-pretty pedicured feet. Normal radical feminism hates-hates transgender women and will manipulate them/sexually harass them because of their supposed male privilege or male energy garbage. They use their rhetoric to beat you down and then practically request you to lick them in naughty places about their opinions of how much transgender people suck, they're stealing/buying away womanhood with surgeries and hormones and they want you out of their spaces now. The excuse Miss Q and her lot used was that I was actually stalking them to prey on young women. Go straight down to Hell Radical Feminism. *Princess waves to it as it dies and goes to Hell.*

No. He just is not. In fact, he says he is sorry you have had to deal with transphobic people in the world of feminists, which is somewhat less monolithic in its beliefs than you seem to realize.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:44 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:As there is no professional exam or certification required to declare yourself a feminist

The same can be said about the Modernists, Post-Modernists, Romantics, Impressionists, Marxist, Capitalist, Socialist, Realists, and Objectivists. What is your point?


Wal-Mart was having a black Friday sale, there was a big fight over Mattel's Noshit Sherlock dolls so I just got sarcasm instead.

The point is that there's no barrier to entry for people calling themselves a feminist, so everyone and their mom is a "feminist" without necessarily agreeing on what that means. So too with most of those others you mentioned.

jewish_scientist wrote:How to prove feminists wrong:
1: Tell them that women receive privileges just like men.


I don't think you understand what privilege means. The existence of black privilege doesn't mean white privilege doesn't exist nor does it mean that white and black privileges are anywhere close to being equal. Gay people have privilege too when it comes to certain career choices, but to say that this fringe benefit is anywhere close in value to, on average, being less likely to be disowned by your family or beaten up in high school, is willful ignorance.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:33 pm UTC

PAstrychef wrote:No. He just is not. In fact, he says he is sorry you have had to deal with transphobic people in the world of feminists, which is somewhat less monolithic in its beliefs than you seem to realize.

Yes sure. Then in the same breath the she-he calls me sounding like a man. Whatever one line doesn't erase a feminist sexual harassment epidemic. And every single feminist I ever met sure was eager to treat me like an outcast. So my opinion is that feminism doesn't want transgender women at all.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:44 pm UTC

How do these particular feminists treat trans men? Are trans men secretly agents of the great feminazi cabal sent to poison our precious bodily fluids with estrogen?

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:47 pm UTC

I imagine they forcefully treat them like women. Calling them pretty-pretty feminine words and chiding them about ever getting pregnant or married or whatever. And then when they transition they still call them a "She" and refer to his breasts and magical vagina. Because forcing people to be misidentified is what they do.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:53 pm UTC

So... any chance trans groups could protest these idiots by using the "right" bathrooms? I get the impression that they would not be too comfortable seeing a bunch of trans male bodybuilders in the ladies room.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:59 pm UTC

Good luck. They don't wanna have us using the right bathrooms. We might rape women or little kids! It all feels like the feminists are doing a huge sexual harassment scandal on trans* people. And when I try to use the correct bathrooms I get banned by decree of Mother Teressa and her boss lady or whoever runs the place.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Zohar » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:01 pm UTC

Ginger wrote:Yes sure. Then in the same breath the she-he calls me sounding like a man.

If he said your words remind him of an Oscar Wilde quote would that also be him saying "you sound like a man"? A comparison of rhetoric is not persecution or a denial of your gender. Not to mention he talked about how his words would sound, not yours.

I'm curious what your thoughts are on Carolyn Petite, a trans woman who works for a website literally called "Feminist Frequency". A friend of mine made a banner for a protest once - "Your feminism is intersectional or it is bullshit", and she's 100% right. If someone's feminism somehow denies the experience of trans people, then yeah it's totally bullshit. It's shitty that your experiences with so-called feminists have been with that particular brand of trash.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:04 pm UTC

I support a transgender feminist but the movement creeps me out. And okay I totally got all turned on that somebody was misidentifying me again. Totally my bad. Anyways, a lot of oppression issues intersect with other issues and are complex to disentangle. I totally respect any feminist whom puts herself out there with her work and theories on prejudice.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Zohar » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:17 pm UTC

100% agree with what you wrote. And if you feel creeped out by the movement - that's fine too. I think most of us understand a bit of how trans lives (and others) have been oppressed by people calling themselves feminists.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:17 pm UTC

[Edited to spoiler unhelpful comments.]

Spoiler:
Ginger, I was much-ninjaed while writing this, but I'm glad to see your last comment backing away from the splitting/black-and-white/all-or-nothing thinking.

Here's what Pfhorrest actually said:

Pfhorrest wrote:I want to make a semi-snarky semi-sincere "#NotAllFeminists" comment but I'm not sure how to phrase it in a way that won't be simultaneously misinterpreted in two opposite directions.

(Sincere in that, while there are such trans-exclusionary feminists and they're a real problem and I'm sorry you've had to deal with them, it really isn't everyone operating under the banner of feminism who's like that; snarky in that, well, that sounds an awful lot like what a lot of guys say, hashtagged "#NotAllMen", when feminists raise issues of misogynous male behavior, so a "#NotAllFeminists" in response to issues with TERF behavior is kinda ironic).


My interpretation is not that Pfhorrest was saying that you sound like a man per se. I took his statement as a caution that all splitting, regardless of the source, starts to sounds alike, and that you might not realize when your own defensive mechanism mirrors the intolerance of your enemies--surely not people you want to resemble in any way!

Your hostile response to an obviously (from my perspective) sympathetic ally proves the point that splitting is going on. I think it's a totally understandable response, considering that you've been under real attack on numerous occasions. However, when defensiveness becomes hyper-vigilant, it can lead you to think you're under attack when you are not, and can isolate you from people like Pfhorrest who would be valuable allies and supporters if you'd let them.
Last edited by ObsessoMom on Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:31 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Sizik » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:33 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:My interpretation is not that Pfhorrest was saying that you sound like a man per se. I took his statement as a caution that all splitting, regardless of the source, starts to sounds alike, and that you might not realize when your own defensive mechanism mirrors the intolerance of your enemies--surely not people you want to resemble in any way!


I'm pretty sure what Pfhorrest is saying "sounds ... like what a lot of guys say" is their own comment of "#NotAllFeminists", not anything GInger said.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:37 pm UTC

Calmly discussing issues and resolving them on the internet? What sorcery is this?!

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:46 pm UTC

Sizik wrote:
ObsessoMom wrote:My interpretation is not that Pfhorrest was saying that you sound like a man per se. I took his statement as a caution that all splitting, regardless of the source, starts to sounds alike, and that you might not realize when your own defensive mechanism mirrors the intolerance of your enemies--surely not people you want to resemble in any way!


I'm pretty sure what Pfhorrest is saying "sounds ... like what a lot of guys say" is their own comment of "#NotAllFeminists", not anything GInger said.

Correct.

My first thought after reading Ginger's post was "well, not all feminists, just those awful TERFs".

Then I thought, "make it funny, write #NotAllFeminists."

Then I realized, "wait, I'm parodying #NotAllMen, which some feminists find anti-feminist. There's something ironic there, defending feminism against an anti-feminist comment with a tactic some feminists find anti-feminist. I kinda like that, it's snarky."

But then I worried that that snark would be taken as anti-feminist itself.

And simultaneously that, if taken genuinely, it might be taken the same way that #NotAllMen gets taken, as missing the point of the original criticism.

So I thought framing it all in a "I would like to make this joke but I'm afraid it will be taken badly" might let me make the joke safely.

(And then I thought, just to be extra safe, add a short explanation to that framing).

I guess I was wrong about that.
Last edited by Pfhorrest on Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:20 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:18 pm UTC

Ah! Thanks for the clarification, and apologies for adding confusion. Good intentions, road to hell, etc.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Thesh » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:29 pm UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:Basically, you are saying that CorruptUser made the Appeal to Authority fallacy. The problem with your criticism is that this fallacy only happens when the Authority is not knowledgeable in the topic under discussion. In order for this to be a Appeal to Authority fallacy, academia needs to be bad at its job. If you can prove that, then your criticism stand.


I didn't say academia was bad at its job, although the multiple competing schools of economics should tell you they are far from complete. What I did say was that the things we are debating are likely outside the scope of CorruptUser's education, and that CorruptUser pointed to his education without actually applying his education.

jewish_scientist wrote:These socio-economical structures came into existence for a reason, namely its dramatically increase efficiency. If you decentralize without doing complex stuff to compensate for the lose of efficiency, the goods produced will be much worse in quality and quantity. In the case of the film industry, this means that movies, particularly block busters, would be less entertaining and come out less often.1 Do you think Marvel could have produced 26 AAA movies in just a decade2 if it did not have a bunch of money and talented artists?


No, they have increased power, they are not more efficient. They seek to create greater profits, which is only one small part of the economy - in practice they seek to hire low-pay, low-productivity workers not because they bring more value to their products, but because the wages as a share of value added are low enough to bring more profits and the less time it takes to train employees the faster your organization can grow at the expense of your competitors (and brand recognition is far more important than quality). They seek to create an environment of high information asymmetry so they can lead in the race to the bottom.

Hell, the hierarchical structure means things like politics become more important than talent when getting promotions - especially when the people responsible for promotions are not capable of judging the talent of the people below them, and have to rely on attitude, name recognition, or other people. This is why we have such problems with sexual harassment in the first place - because talent is just not nearly as important as other things that are unrelated to your duties.

Generally speaking, higher profit margins mean a less efficient economy, and large organizations are less flexible, deliver less choice to consumers, and lead to lower quality jobs and products, for the sake of creating higher profits. And what are we doing today? Shipping products all across the world, causing us to waste more physical resources than if we produced most things locally, all because centralizing industry means you can pay people less and nothing more. That's inefficient in pretty much every way.

As for the film industry - we get a bunch of sequels and remakes not because they are better, but because they are safe bets. The movies that we make are what appeals to the single largest audience, and this comes at the expense of everyone that is not a part of that single largest audience. The experience is worse for everyone as the people who are in that large audience get a bunch of variations on a few safe stories. And hell, as long as people are going to the movies, they are going to watch *something* - giving them a name they recognize is far more important than making sure it's something good.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby doogly » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:41 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Then I thought, "make it funny, write #NotAllFeminists."

I think it really is perfectly analogous. Yes it's true not all men do awful things, and it's true not all feminists do awful things, and in both cases, if somebody has been wronged by these groups, offering up some "no true scotsman" fallacies in defense is just not compelling. It's up to men / feminists, respectively, to clean house.

We try to do a good job of the feminist house cleaning here, the intersectional and trans affirming type are the strong majority in the xkcd fora now, but it is certainly not the entire world, and while it may be desirable to take the feminist flag away from the folks ginger had been dealing with, that's a tricky operation to perform.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Sableagle » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:44 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:Quite possibly. I've decided not to care.

morriswalters wrote:Anyway, you all have fun with it. I'm gone.

CorruptUser wrote:But this argument bores me.

CorruptUser wrote:Arguing about economics is BORING.

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Sableagle wrote:Anyway, as we're boring each other I thought I'd let someone else do my research for me.


Just to give that line context.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Zohar » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:58 pm UTC

doogly wrote:We try to do a good job of the feminist house cleaning here, the intersectional and trans affirming type are the strong majority in the xkcd fora now, but it is certainly not the entire world, and while it may be desirable to take the feminist flag away from the folks ginger had been dealing with, that's a tricky operation to perform.

I'd like to think it's better than it used to be but that could easily be my own selection bias of friends and communities I take part in.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby doogly » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:11 pm UTC

Yeah I am super deliberate about these things, which leads to a happier life and a big selection bias.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:20 pm UTC

Yeah it turns out that when all of my most politically active friends and acquaintances are trans and/or sex workers, I encounter a lot fewer T(W)ERFs and SWERFs than I once did when I was younger, but I suppose that doesn't actually mean there are fewer such shitheads in existence.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby morriswalters » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:56 pm UTC

@ Sableagle

To give your context context, I practice safe posting these days. So I've decided not to care. To much wear and tear trying to talk about this issue.
We try to do a good job of the feminist house cleaning here, the intersectional and trans affirming type are the strong majority in the xkcd fora now
This has a very creepy vibe.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:49 pm UTC

Morris Walters I say with all my heart: You are creepy and stop posting here if you don't care. Thanks babe. Kisses! <3
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby morriswalters » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:58 pm UTC

Ginger wrote:Morris Walters I say with all my heart: You are creepy and stop posting here if you don't care. Thanks babe. Kisses! <3
:roll:

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:01 pm UTC

Methinks the man doth protest too much with his eye rolls... I think he is secretly flirting at me with his eyes. Suing him for sexual harassment now!
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:23 pm UTC

I think he's suggesting that cleaning house of assholes has a resemblance to fascism. Which isn't completely wrong, in the sense that undesirables are pushed out, but the key difference between cleaning house and fascism is that cleaning house kicks people out of the house and onto the curb, whereas fascism kicks them off the curb to "elsewhere."

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:30 pm UTC

You can't compare a voluntary exile they're probably happy about like banning to fucking facism. Quixotess is a good writer but.... and then what do you do about sexual harassers if you can never kick them out huh Mr. Sir?
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:59 pm UTC

Everything can be compared to anything else. But as for whether the two are anywhere close to being equivalent in magnitude...

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby morriswalters » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:16 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I think he's suggesting that cleaning house of assholes has a resemblance to fascism. Which isn't completely wrong, in the sense that undesirables are pushed out, but the key difference between cleaning house and fascism is that cleaning house kicks people out of the house and onto the curb, whereas fascism kicks them off the curb to "elsewhere."
I knew there was a fascist angle in there somewhere. We could have a long conversation about the term undesirables.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:36 am UTC

Banning is not fascism. The guy above's comic was right. In the context of sexual harassment, if you are being undesirable then you are abusing people, full stop. Unwanted flirting or forcing a woman into a sexual situation they don't want like misidentifying gender, subjecting them to constant insults based on their sex or abusive rhetoric about acceptance and forgiveness of sexual harassers--Undesirable. Out you go. We're showing you the door. Conversation over. PS: Fascism never happened here.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:43 am UTC

Ginger wrote:Yes sure. Then in the same breath the she-he calls me sounding like a man. Whatever one line doesn't erase a feminist sexual harassment epidemic. And every single feminist I ever met sure was eager to treat me like an outcast. So my opinion is that feminism doesn't want transgender women at all.
Just to be clear -- I'm fairly certain you're misreading Phforrest's post. They were comparing themselves to men -- not you. To simplify what they were saying: "On one hand, I want to say '#NotAllFeminists'. On the other hand, that makes me (Phforrest) sound like those guys who say '#NotAllMen', and those guys are clearly jerks."

I think you misinterpreted this to mean that they thought you sounded like those men. But this was clearly a self-depreciating comment at their own expense -- not yours.

Also, as an aside: I (much like Phforrest, and several other posters here) am sorry you've had to deal with TERFs; they're absolute shit. One of the reasons I hesitate to call myself a feminist is because I've never gotten a good read on how much of feminism is comprised of TERFs. Were I transgender, I can imagine being even more skeptical of feminism than I already am (and the existence of TERFs already makes me fairly skeptical).

But -- presuming you consider interactions in this thread to qualify as 'meeting' people -- you've definitely 'met' a few feminists here who find transgender-exclusionary feminism to be abhorrent bullshit. That doesn't erase the negative experiences you've had, but it should at least be enough to tell you that being a feminist and supporting transgender people aren't mutually exclusive propositions.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:09 am UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:Just to be clear -- I'm fairly certain you're misreading Phforrest's post. They were comparing themselves to men -- not you. To simplify what they were saying: "On one hand, I want to say '#NotAllFeminists'. On the other hand, that makes me (Phforrest) sound like those guys who say '#NotAllMen', and those guys are clearly jerks."

Correct, except for that last clause. I can see two sides of the "#NotAllMen" thing just like the two sides of "#NotAllFeminists" would be here. On the one hand, yes, when someone is voicing their experience of mistreatment by some men, it's not really supportive to point out that there are other men who aren't like that. Just like if I had simply said "#NotAllFeminists" that would not have been supportive of Ginger and her negative experience with TERFs, which is why I added further supportive language to that post. But on the other hand, it isn't actually all men, and I can see men who feel like the bad actions of some men are being ascribed to "men" as a monolithic whole (including themselves) would feel the need to highlight that fact. Just like TERFs actually aren't all feminists, and a lot of people here seem to agree that it's worth highlighting that fact.

I find that parallel interesting and amusing in an ironic kind of way, as though it highlights to the feminists who would otherwise think so that people who say "#NotAllMen" aren't so clearly jerks. Some of them might be, and others might be as justified as we are with this #NotAllFeminists business here. (Do we need a metahashtag now, "#NotAllNotAllMen"?)
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby morriswalters » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:46 am UTC

Ginger wrote:Banning is not fascism. The guy above's comic was right. In the context of sexual harassment, if you are being undesirable then you are abusing people, full stop. Unwanted flirting or forcing a woman into a sexual situation they don't want like misidentifying gender, subjecting them to constant insults based on their sex or abusive rhetoric about acceptance and forgiveness of sexual harassers--Undesirable. Out you go. We're showing you the door. Conversation over. PS: Fascism never happened here.

Just to be clear, I didn't drop the fascist word bomb, CorruptUser seems to be trying to be unhelpful. And I don't like the way it's used here. And moderation exists to prevent abuse. However since I seem to upset you I'll foe you. I suggest you should return the favor. If you do that you will never see my posts. And I will never see yours.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby doogly » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:43 am UTC

Well, some people have an awful habit of clicking to show the posts of people they've taken the trouble to foe, which just makes more trouble for them. Very self defeating but here we are.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby ucim » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:11 am UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:The problem with your criticism is that this fallacy only happens when the Authority is not knowledgeable in the topic under discussion.
No. It is a fallacy either way. Appeal to authority is not evidence of truth. It is however suggestive that maybe the point being made shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. There's a big difference.

jewish_scientist wrote:These socio-economical structures came into existence for a reason, namely its dramatically increase efficiency.
I don't think so (and I say this without appealing to any authority at all. :) ) The thing is, these structures are power structures, and there is a kind of "survival instinct" to power structures. Those on top want to stay on top, and they have the power to do so. The degree to which they can do so is proportional to(*) the difference (or ratio) of the power difference and the degree to which they are actually stepping on those beneath them. Efficiency is not even in the mix.

jewish_scientist wrote:How to prove feminists wrong:
[stuff]
Wouldn't it matter what it is that they are actually saying? Feminists (and other groups) don't speak with one voice.

(*) ok, "monotonically related to". I'm not actually doing math, despite the metaphorical language.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:26 am UTC

ucim wrote:The thing is, these structures are power structures, and there is a kind of "survival instinct" to power structures. Those on top want to stay on top, and they have the power to do so.

I feel like there is some kind of profound insight here that I want to elaborate upon, but also that it's so blatantly obvious there's nothing more to say about it. It's like evolution, and I guess it counts as a kind of memetic evolution since it's cultural, but it seems to be about more than just ideas spreading. Social structures that give certain people social power tend to propagate, because those people then have the power (and obviously motive) to propagate them. It's as obvious a thing to say as "organisms that are better at surviving tend to be the kind of organisms that survive into the future", but noticing that fact was revolutionary in biology, and spelling it out like that now feels like a revolutionary idea in my mind. Is fighting for egalitarian distribution of power futile, because it's fighting against (non-biological) "evolutionary" pressure?
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby The Great Hippo » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:57 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Correct, except for that last clause. I can see two sides of the "#NotAllMen" thing just like the two sides of "#NotAllFeminists" would be here. On the one hand, yes, when someone is voicing their experience of mistreatment by some men, it's not really supportive to point out that there are other men who aren't like that. Just like if I had simply said "#NotAllFeminists" that would not have been supportive of Ginger and her negative experience with TERFs, which is why I added further supportive language to that post. But on the other hand, it isn't actually all men, and I can see men who feel like the bad actions of some men are being ascribed to "men" as a monolithic whole (including themselves) would feel the need to highlight that fact. Just like TERFs actually aren't all feminists, and a lot of people here seem to agree that it's worth highlighting that fact.

I find that parallel interesting and amusing in an ironic kind of way, as though it highlights to the feminists who would otherwise think so that people who say "#NotAllMen" aren't so clearly jerks. Some of them might be, and others might be as justified as we are with this #NotAllFeminists business here. (Do we need a metahashtag now, "#NotAllNotAllMen"?)
To be fair, I don't think I've ever seen a sincere '#NotAllMen' post that didn't prompt severe eye-rolling. But to be even more fair, I haven't seen all sincere '#NotAllMen' posts. There might be one out there that I wouldn't find semi-nauseating.

Maybe.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:36 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Ginger wrote:Banning is not fascism. The guy above's comic was right. In the context of sexual harassment, if you are being undesirable then you are abusing people, full stop. Unwanted flirting or forcing a woman into a sexual situation they don't want like misidentifying gender, subjecting them to constant insults based on their sex or abusive rhetoric about acceptance and forgiveness of sexual harassers--Undesirable. Out you go. We're showing you the door. Conversation over. PS: Fascism never happened here.

Just to be clear, I didn't drop the fascist word bomb, CorruptUser seems to be trying to be unhelpful. And I don't like the way it's used here. And moderation exists to prevent abuse. However since I seem to upset you I'll foe you. I suggest you should return the favor. If you do that you will never see my posts. And I will never see yours.

I'm not going to ignore you forever just because you creep me out. Sexual abuse upsets me Mr. Morris Walters. Not you. You seem very affable. Anyways whatever if you foe me nothin' I can do!

And Great Hippo: Yes I completely got Pfhorrest's statement wrong and now I feel ashamed. Anyways I've met a lot of different feminists online and read a lot of abusive rhetoric. Full Confession: I dunno if anything I said actually happened with those feminists to quite the degree I said it did. Because at the time I happened to think they were psychic and could all read my naughty-naughty evil thoughts. Ha-ha.
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