Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ranbot » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:28 pm UTC

Leovan wrote:In my turn I deeply disagree with statements recently issued such as this:
Emily Lindin wrote:I'm actually not at all concerned about innocent men losing their jobs over false sexual assault/harassment allegations...If some innocent men's reputations have to take a hit in the process of undoing the patriarchy, that is a price I am absolutely willing to pay.

https://twitter.com/EmilyLindin/status/ ... 4822579200

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" and all that.

I probably share morriwalter's character flaw that is I absolutely loathe the thought of being falsely accused and have a violent reaction to the mere thought. It makes me overreact to this environment that I consider ripe for such situations.


I agree completely.... not only to protect innocent people, but also to protect the legitimacy of the movement. Overzealous reformers often make mistakes, and mistakes will give opponents the fodder they need to discredit needed reforms. It's in everyone's interest to be fair and deliberate. Unfortunately Twitter, Facebook, and news headlines tend to promote zealousness over nuanced, fair, and deliberate statements.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby sardia » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:39 pm UTC

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... nns-money/
Casino billionaire raped a bunch of women, and the GOP is trying to save his dirty campaign money. This contrasts to the GOP demanding Harvey Weinstein campaign money be returned.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby idonno » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:50 pm UTC

Leovan wrote:In my turn I deeply disagree with statements recently issued such as this:
Emily Lindin wrote:I'm actually not at all concerned about innocent men losing their jobs over false sexual assault/harassment allegations...If some innocent men's reputations have to take a hit in the process of undoing the patriarchy, that is a price I am absolutely willing to pay.

https://twitter.com/EmilyLindin/status/ ... 4822579200

I'd just like to point out that independent of whether innocent men losing their jobs should be a concern, the tweet is false. It is not a price she is willing to pay. It is a price she is willing to make others pay.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:30 pm UTC

I'm willing to convict some "innocent of sex abuses not really" dudes in favor of harsher punishing of more rapists too. I don't believe that lady is being out of line at all. Sex harassers NEED to suffer consequences prosecution jail time for their actions.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:40 pm UTC

The innocent will suffer with the guilty in any case and what she feels about it is not important. It happens every day in hundreds of different venues, whenever things happen out of sight. How many people in prison are not guilty? She's just tactless and showing poor tactics and zero empathy. She is correct in the sense the some people will use this to push back. And anybody that thinks that when it starts that it won't be ugly, hasn't really thought about it.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:50 pm UTC

The male power systems USA favors and the abuses they perpetuate to women and girls extend far beyond some minor reputations damages to questionably innocent men. Fathers get away with abusing their young daughters, pimps that are male harm female prostitutes, bfs harm gfs. I don't need to go on. WE NEED to show men, especially powerful, white, upper classes, sex abuses men that they Shall go directly to jail for sex misconducts.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:10 pm UTC

Ginger wrote:The male power systems USA favors and the abuses they perpetuate to women and girls extend far beyond some minor reputations damages to questionably innocent men.
We're not just talking about minor reputation damage, though -- we're talking about the possibility of someone losing their source of income. If they're part of a family where they're the primary source of income, that has the potential to be devastating.

On one hand, I'm very sympathetic to women who can't scrounge up much concern over men who suffer false accusations. On the other hand? I'm very aware that in a capitalistic system, loss of reputation can mean loss of income -- and depending on who you are and what your income is, that can be catastrophic for both you and the people around you. Remember, we're not just talking about rich old white dudes like Weinstein.

Keep in mind, I am skeptical regarding just how common false accusations of sexual harassment are -- and how devastating they can be. That being said, again, I don't think it's inappropriate for people to find the quoted statement (regarding a lack of concern) both frustrating and infuriating. We live in a society where power is clearly slanted in favor of men; at the same time, we're all under the yoke of a capitalistic system that will gladly kill us for having the audacity to lose our jobs.

EDIT: I mean, it'll kill some of us way more readily than others. But it's still pretty toxic regardless of who you are.
Last edited by The Great Hippo on Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:18 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:18 pm UTC

That's true. Service jobs especially depend on one's reputations to survive. Or if you're a celebrity. Ha-ha. Cattiness aside, I feel sympathetic feels for innocent men, I do... yet. It's so difficult to care about women's issues and men's issues at the same times. I wish more men would not charge women with being, like, sex, morals gatekeepers for them in their power plays. Like, a man will abuse a woman and then say She should have been more vigilant. Which... can also happen to men, funnily enough? So... I misspoke. Don't you know that you're Toxic, Patriarchy? Britney Spears sang about drinking from a devils' cup THAT'S The Patriarchy. Melissa McEwan wrote articles, after articles, I could cite re: devils' bargains about The Patriarchy. It's a real thing.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Zohar » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:23 pm UTC

I've mentioned my husband is taking part in a remarkable sexual assault study in Columbia university a few times, both here and elsewhere. An article on the project was just published on the New Yorker discussing the project. So it's both relevant, and I get to brag about him being interviewed!
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Zamfir » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:50 pm UTC

https://twitter.com/EmilyLindin/status/ ... 4822579200

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" and all that

The tweet talked about losing a job. The 'ten guilty to free' standard is about criminal lawsuits. Jail time, not losing a job.

Civil cases already lack that high standard evidence, they use weight of the evidence to decide. And even here in the Socialist Workers Paradise of the Netherlands, getting fired barely reaches to the level of a civil case. In plenty of places, the rule is at-will employment. And loads of commentators recommend that to the rest of the world, as 'labour market reform'.

Somehow, no one jumps on them with 'better 10 guilty go free' moral outrage, even though their stance is way worse than 'some people might be unfairly fired and I am willing to accept that as a side effect'

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby elasto » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:59 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:The tweet talked about losing a job. The 'ten guilty to free' standard is about criminal lawsuits. Jail time, not losing a job.

When someone loses their job due to a sexual abuse accusation, it's not unlikely it actually means them losing their career. That is a big deal if it happens to anyone, especially an innocent person.

And even here in the Socialist Workers Paradise of the Netherlands, getting fired barely reaches to the level of a civil case.

The Netherlands has a pretty decent social safety net upon someone getting fired.

In plenty of places, the rule is at-will employment. And loads of commentators recommend that to the rest of the world, as 'labour market reform'.

Somehow, no one jumps on them with 'better 10 guilty go free' moral outrage, even though their stance is way worse than 'some people might be unfairly fired and I am willing to accept that as a side effect'

I suspect it's not the same commentators.

At-will employment is a plausible concept where there is very low unemployment and a good social safety net. It's a bad idea otherwise.

So count me amongst those who think that 'being jailed when innocent' and 'being fired when having done nothing wrong' are both terrible things.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:04 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
Zamfir wrote:The tweet talked about losing a job. The 'ten guilty to free' standard is about criminal lawsuits. Jail time, not losing a job.

When people lose their job due to a sexual abuse accusation, it's not unlikely it actually means them losing their career. That is a big deal if it happens to anyone, especially an innocent person.

Yes, it is, and in my opinions: Females at school that dress inappropriately can get rape accuses, men that work with children, women that... get pregnant early sometimes get abusive fathers suing them for sexual misconduct with their kids. And then: You lose your careers and allegations follow you... around and: How to fix? Well, I say, we prosecute more not less. Take every allegations by abuse women and girls seriously to start with, do investigates, and if they lying and falsely accuses? Punishes them and not: Females that look like hookers and flirts, men working with small kids, women that are knocked up and accused by CPS of abusing they kids by they daddy. So... that's a step we could maybe possibly start taking now?
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby sardia » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:17 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
Zamfir wrote:The tweet talked about losing a job. The 'ten guilty to free' standard is about criminal lawsuits. Jail time, not losing a job.

When someone loses their job due to a sexual abuse accusation, it's not unlikely it actually means them losing their career. That is a big deal if it happens to anyone, especially an innocent person.

And even here in the Socialist Workers Paradise of the Netherlands, getting fired barely reaches to the level of a civil case.

The Netherlands has a pretty decent social safety net upon someone getting fired.

In plenty of places, the rule is at-will employment. And loads of commentators recommend that to the rest of the world, as 'labour market reform'.

Somehow, no one jumps on them with 'better 10 guilty go free' moral outrage, even though their stance is way worse than 'some people might be unfairly fired and I am willing to accept that as a side effect'

I suspect it's not the same commentators.
At-will employment is a plausible concept where there is very low unemployment and a good social safety net. It's a bad idea otherwise.
So count me amongst those who think that 'being jailed when innocent' and 'being fired when having done nothing wrong' are both terrible things.

Say you did harass someone and you got fired for it. How exactly is your next employer going to catch that? You wouldn't be dumb enough to offer them as a reference, would you? Now if you couldn't offer any references because you raped your way through your entire employment history, my sympathy decreases.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:30 pm UTC

If you can't refer to your previous employer, how are you going to explain the obvious gap in your employment history? Especially if you worked there a long time?
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:33 pm UTC

You don't lie about ever having worked there, you just don't give their contact information as a reference.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Mutex » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:34 pm UTC

Wouldn't your next employer get a bit suspicious if you didn't give your previous employer as a reference?

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby eran_rathan » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:44 pm UTC

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Zamfir » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:46 pm UTC

So count me amongst those who think that 'being jailed when innocent' and 'being fired when having done nothing wrong' are both terrible things.

It's still telling that this Emily Lindin gets a sewer full of vitriol as response, while labour market reformers get treated as Serious People, even by those who disagree with them. Even though her stance is 'i am willing to accept a lower standard than a full criminal trial', and their stance is 'we oppose standards at all'.

Another example: people seem deeply worried about false accusations about sex. Apparently, they fear that there are significant numbers of women willing to lie (in a way that is highly uncomfortable to the women) in order to destroy careers. But they don't seem nearly as concerned about getting accused of theft, or taking bribes, or shirking work, breaking safety rules, or anything else that nefarious people could think of to get one fired.

If you ask them, I am sure that they are also concerned about such false accusations. But doesn't animate them. They don't hunt on the Twitter for people who are too hardline on bribery or laziness.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:59 pm UTC

Since people generally don't go into moral panics over bribery, theft, even murder, the way they do about sex crimes, it seems reasonable people would be more worried about false accusations of those than the others.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Zamfir » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:04 pm UTC

That's a joke, right?

Edit to flesh it out: the whole point of this metoo thing? sexual harassment is extremely common in the workplace. People might be Outraged about it in theory, in practice perps get away with the benefit of the doubt in public, and often approving fist-bumps in private.

'better 10 guilty go free' is exactly the standard used, even though other work

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:07 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
Another example: people seem deeply worried about false accusations about sex. Apparently, they fear that there are significant numbers of women willing to lie (in a way that is highly uncomfortable to the women) in order to destroy careers. But they don't seem nearly as concerned about getting accused of theft, or taking bribes, or shirking work, breaking safety rules, or anything else that nefarious people could think of to get one fired.


That's because the court of public opinion requires the defendant to prove innocence, not the prosecutor to prove guilt. If you accuse someone of stealing a car, it's easy for them to turn around and point out they don't have the car in question. If you accuse someone of sexual harassment, there usually isn't a way for the person to prove innocence.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby natraj » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:15 pm UTC

that absolutely isn't true for a LOT of low-level work-related accusations of even something as "provable" as theft though. if you work in a retail store for example, or in domestic service, it is really, really, REALLY easy for things to be missing from your work environment and no way to prove you don't have it. a car, sure. but money from the till? clothing in a store where employees are required to wear store brand clothing anyway? etc.

i know lots of people who have been fired with zero proof because their employers decided they Looked Like Thieves (i.e. they're black) and stuff was missing in stores where customers regularly steal things, or they work in a house with lots of domestic workers coming in and out frequently but just blame it on the black ones (frequently in these cases nothing was even genuinely missing! a homeowner misplaces something, or loses it, or someone else in the house has it and either because forgetfulness or not wanting to own up - say teenagers taking their parents money/booze/etc) home workers get blamed.

anyway people get fired for it lots, and it screws over job prospects lots but nobody is making a fuss about false theft accusations For Some Reason.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:24 pm UTC

So you are saying it's a race/class issue?

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby sardia » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:48 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:So you are saying it's a race/class issue?

Can you use less pronouns? What is a race/class issue? Sexual harassment and who gets accused successfully?

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:57 pm UTC

Sex abuses accusations can definitely become race and class issues: Successful, talented white men get off, or successful, talented black men get off... or the reverse: Black men, even rich and famous ones, accuses unfairly? Black women accuses of illegal activities or being too aggressive, not always in courts, sometimes it's just their friends accuses them of sexual misdeeds. White poorer women being accuses of homeless hookers' activities, diving through dumpsters to look for needles and drugs so they can... service... their clients by raping them, JUST BECAUSE they poor. So yes: Sex abuses accuses CAN BE racial/classism issues. Thank you.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby natraj » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:15 pm UTC

no, i was speaking to my experiences of how i have personally seen some of this play out and the reasons for it in times i am personally familiar with. broadly though i don't think it's possible in our current u.s. society to separate any labor issue from its intersections of race and class so i suppose i can't say "no, i don't mean that" just "no, that's not why i mentioned it specifically, it was just relevant to the numerous examples i am familiar with because i am poor and black and so are lots of people whose lives are entwined with mine".

but on that note there is most definitely race/class aspects tied up in the way many of these conversations are framed: it's why you see SO MUCH panic about rich white boys with Promising Futures see brock turner and how media talked of him, initially and even after conviction, focusing on his education, family, swimming prospects, and how rape accusation would damage his life -- inherently framed as something to care about because of all his trappings of prosperity&whiteness. we do not see the same outrage if poor black boys in the hood are the ones accused because society doesn't view their lives with the same value, so not as much horror at the prospect of ruining those lives. (pls forgive choppiness, writing from phone w half froze fingers)
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:19 pm UTC

sardia wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:So you are saying it's a race/class issue?

Can you use less pronouns? What is a race/class issue? Sexual harassment and who gets accused successfully?


The whole "why do people fear false rape accusations but not false theft" thing. Apparently it's because middle and upper middle class white people don't get accused of theft without evidence, but they can get accused of sexual harassment without evidence.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby natraj » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:31 pm UTC

that was an enormous distortion of my actual responses but sure okay
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:36 pm UTC

Was my analysis of it. But yeah, didn't really think of the race/class issues behind it all. So thanks for that.

Also funny because the other night I just rewatched the Hank After Dark episode of Bojack Horseman.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby natraj » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:47 pm UTC

my first response was responding to the idea that false accusations of other crimes don't happen/don't hurt people. as mentioned, i noted specific circumstances (i.e. "you look sketchy bc you're black") because i was speaking from specific instances i know personally. you decided to read into that to begin with.

second i clarified that post #1 was just speaking about my specific experiences around that one issue, and went on (since you had brought it up) to talk about ways that race & class DO intersect the broader, overall, sexual harassment conversation. that's all. any interpretation of that that leads to "white people can't get accused of theft" is you injecting your own "blm promotes white genocide" (that is an analogy btw, e.g., obviously if i talk about black issues etc. it's because i am by extension saying white people don't matter/aren't affected which i didn't say) bias where none existed. i only was speaking to ways i see the sexual harassment conversation take on existing societal prejudices.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:58 pm UTC

Umm.... wut.

Was my take on the issue, not my take on your take.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby natraj » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:04 pm UTC

ah, apologies, i misinterpreted what "it" was referring to in yr previous post.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:53 pm UTC

On a phone, sorry it was ambiguous.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby slinches » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:20 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:But they don't seem nearly as concerned about getting accused of theft, or taking bribes, or shirking work, breaking safety rules, or anything else that nefarious people could think of to get one fired.

Whether it's right or not, the perception of many is close to this:
You usually don't get fired immediately when you're accused of those other things. They do a thorough investigation and either confirm whether the thing that is claimed actually occurred or not. Even if it did conclusively happen, they would need to find compelling evidence that it was you who did it to fire you. In the case of a sexual harassment allegation, there is no room for investigation. The evidence for the wrongdoing and confirmation that you are the perpetrator is the accusation itself, which is completely unquestionable in today's political climate. Since that harassment claim must be assumed 100% accurate, the company would be seen as "ignoring" victims and rewarding harassers if they were to pause to investigate. Hence, there's a "zero tolerance" policy and just immediately fire anyone who is accused.


I don't think that's an entirely accurate representation of how these things have really happened, of course, but that's the image that seems to be portrayed. One of the key things I think contributes to it is that, whether or not a process has been followed, the messaging hasn't been careful or clear on what the process was supposed to be due to impatience of the media. This isn't the case with the other offenses you listed. Someone gets accused of theft, for example, there's an investigation or a trial followed by verdict and punishment, if guilty. When you hear a story come out about a famous person being accused of harassment, either they are immediately fired or the company is being skewered by the press for backing a harasser. I'm sure that most of those cases really are purges of people who have been doing disgusting things for a long time that everyone knew about, but never talked about to protect the victims. But from the outside, unless the evidence is publicly disclosed, it seems just as likely to be opportunistic attacks on powerful people. I understand that companies have abused "investigations" to stall for time until the claim fades from the public view. We absolutely should hold them accountable when that happens, but it seems like the companies aren't even being given a chance to do a real investigation at all. If the media messages were to moderate a little bit by focusing more on expediting due process, then I think we would get better outcomes in these cases without validating the perception above

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:37 am UTC

Yeah, this "accusation is guilt" climate seems to be the key difference to me, and is what I was (maybe inaccurately) going for with the "moral panic" comment I made earlier. Most crimes, even objectively worse ones like murder, you're not usually seen as guilty unless evidence that you're guilty is found. With some exceptions due to prejudice as previously mentioned, e.g. if you just "look like a criminal" (= black, etc). But, at least the emotional impression I have of the whole situation from afar, is that there simply is nothing anyone can possibly say or do in the face of an accusation of any kind of sex crime; that being accused at all makes you "look like a criminal". Like even mentioning to someone that you had once been falsely accused and exonerated would then make whoever you're telling that to suspicious of you. I've never been accused, but I'm afraid to share even tangentially related anecdotes for fear of what it will make people suspect; I'm not even sure I shouldn't just delete this sentence. I honestly feel like I would probably just kill myself if a false accusation was ever made against me -- and that even that would then be taken as proof of guilt. (One of those anecdotes I'm not sharing was the start of the self-harm that has continued for following 15 years).
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:24 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Like even mentioning to someone that you had once been falsely accused and exonerated would then make whoever you're telling that to suspicious of you.
Every reasonable scientist in the world believes human-caused global climate change is a thing. Climatologists release papers on it all the time. It's about as close to a scientific fact as you can get.

But because of our cultural climate (ha!) regarding climate change, there's this weird effect that can happen: If a climatologist wants to release a paper disproving some small element of climate change, or mentioning how the numbers of climate change might be a little less drastic than currently believed -- they might face extra scrutiny from the climatology community. Because the community is under siege, and anything that doesn't directly contribute to the narrative ('climate change is happening, climate change is disastrous, climate change is human-caused') is seen as a potential threat to that narrative -- even when it's absolutely true.

This parallels sexual harassment concerns too, I suspect: We all know sexual harassment happens. We all know it's an epidemic. We also all know it's occurring in a culture that seeks to diminish, erase, or otherwise ignore its existence. So, any story that contradicts our narrative -- that sexual harassment is happening, sexual harassment is horrible, sexual harassment is pervasive -- is seen as a potential threat to that narrative. Even when, again, the story is absolutely true. I think this is a challenge a lot of people face when they're on the 'right side' of an issue. We need to learn how to balance being right in a general way with being possibly wrong in a specific way.

That being said, I also think we need to understand how people can use these stories to undermine the absolutely correct narrative that sexual harassment is pervasive and destructive and we need to empower the people facing it.

Uh, I guess what I'm saying is that it's a complicated issue and there's a lot of plates to balance.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Ginger » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:14 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote: With some exceptions due to prejudice as previously mentioned, e.g. if you just "look like a criminal" (= black, etc). But, at least the emotional impression I have of the whole situation from afar, is that there simply is nothing anyone can possibly say or do in the face of an accusation of any kind of sex crime; that being accused at all makes you "look like a criminal". Like even mentioning to someone that you had once been falsely accused and exonerated would then make whoever you're telling that to suspicious of you. I've never been accused, but I'm afraid to share even tangentially related anecdotes for fear of what it will make people suspect; ....

I have been accuses of sex crimes. Namely: Stalking grown men, adult women and young... teen... girls to do unwilling sex works on them ha-ha. Anyways, what can you do when you accused? Got to defend, defend, defend yourself. Defends yourselves in courts, to your therapists and service workers, to the public. And sometimes the public and the courts don't listen, sometimes you can't even says it to your friends because they aren't safe to talk to, they would report you and that's a shame. It doesn't mean our current climates re: prosecuting sex crimes is wrong, or broken, or even needs fixing at all?

I think it does a mostly fine job at prosecuting and convicting sex offenders. It convicts me, at least twice or three times now? And I never even got jails times at any of my trials so: I'm kind of a fan of the legal system for prosecuting sex crimes? At least however I can agree re: Public witch hunts. There are so, so much public witch trials and hunts for "accused, suspected rapists and sexual harassers" especially: Transgender women, creepy looking men, creepy, nerdy submissive BDSM women get targeted as creepy sexual abusers by the public and cops too? Injustices and travesties everywhere for young men, women and girls, breaks my heart and rends my soul.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Zamfir » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:56 am UTC

Yeah, this "accusation is guilt" climate seems to be the key difference to me, and is what I was (maybe inaccurately) going for with the "moral panic" comment I made earlier

Weirdly, this debate started by a meToo campaign that consisted of story after story about sexual harassment and guys who casually got away with it. In case it wasn't already obvious that this was the typical outcome.

But somehow, this resulted in guys being deeply concerned about the ease at which they could get fired for sexual harassment.

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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:04 am UTC

Zamfir wrote:
meToo campaign ... resulted in guys being deeply concerned


To be clear, my impression is not particularly affected by recent events, but long predates them.

Also can you clarify for me, because I'm not up on all of the details: in these recent cases, were accusations leveled way back when at the time of the events, and only now believed; or are the accusations only now being aired, because back when it happened people were too scared for their jobs (etc) to come forward? If no accusations were leveled back then, then it's not a case of accusations being easily brushed off. But I'm not sure if that's the case or not, so if you know I'd appreciate clarification.
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Re: Sexual Harrassment Epidemic

Postby eran_rathan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:14 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Zamfir wrote:
meToo campaign ... resulted in guys being deeply concerned


To be clear, my impression is not particularly affected by recent events, but long predates them.

Also can you clarify for me, because I'm not up on all of the details: in these recent cases, were accusations leveled way back when at the time of the events, and only now believed; or are the accusations only now being aired, because back when it happened people were too scared for their jobs (etc) to come forward? If no accusations were leveled back then, then it's not a case of accusations being easily brushed off. But I'm not sure if that's the case or not, so if you know I'd appreciate clarification.


In most of the cases, the accusations go back a long time and are only now being acted upon.
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