Teachers being trained to kill kids

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Thesh
Made to Fuck Dinosaurs
Posts: 6568
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:55 am UTC
Location: Colorado

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Thesh » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:27 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The teachers being trained to kill kids arent trying to protect the students, they just want to live out a fantasy of shooting unruly little brats. Pretty much exactly the sort of person who should never be allowed to bring a gun into the classroom. I'm saying that our efforts to fix the problem of lazy, incompetent teachers who have trouble with little brats has gotten worse over the years.


The problem is that the nature of school is terrible and always has alienated a very large portion of students. Seriously, this is not just lazy teachers this is a complete systemic failure of the family and school system as a concept. We statistically guarantee that a certain portion of children will have shitty parents, and the school system is designed only to take care of the needs of the people with the least need. These problems have always existed, it's just that now the problems are manifesting in a way that you can no longer consider normal.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

idonno
Posts: 290
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:34 am UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby idonno » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:31 pm UTC

cphite wrote:A reasonably competent person can be taught the basics pretty easily. Always assume the weapon is loaded unless you've cleared it yourself. Always treat the weapon as loaded in regards to other people, even after you've cleared it yourself. Never point the weapon at anyone unless you intend to shoot. Keep your finger off the trigger unless your going to shoot. Etc.

You understand the difference between head knowledge and ingrained behavior. If you are going to put weapons in a school, you want the people holding them to have ingrained behavior patterns.

cphite wrote:The course sounds like it covers all of the things that such a course generally covers, and ought to cover. In that way, it sounds adequate in my opinion.
Considering after a week long course a pilot still accidentally shot a gun in an aircraft in a low stress situation, do you have any actual testing that shows this level of training is sufficient to handle a gun properly in the high stress situation of an actual shooting which is what these teachers are expected to do? It covers everything you think it ought to is substantially different from there being actual data that demonstrates some amount of efficacy.

cphite wrote:I am not assuming anything - it is already legal in some states for teachers to carry guns in schools; teachers are, in fact, already carrying guns in schools.

He had volunteered because, he said, the school had wanted to do something to prepare for the possibility of an attack and wanted volunteers and no one else had raised their hand.

People are pushing for more and the likelihood of less competent people with less experience increases when you start actively pushing for teachers instead of just allowing it. On top of this, you don't even have a way to measure how much of a shift this is because there are no numbers on how many teachers are actually currently carrying guns or what their aptitude is. Arguing this is status quo is bullshit. This is a shift and it is concerning. Without any sort of actual evidence, there is no justification for adding a potential threat of unknown magnitude to combat a threat of known negligible magnitude.

ijuin
Posts: 1061
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:02 pm UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby ijuin » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:46 pm UTC

Kids are about one hundred times more likely to be killed by traffic accidents than by shootings, but nobody is making a ruckus about the need to save child pedestrians from dangerous motorists.

User avatar
Zamfir
I built a novelty castle, the irony was lost on some.
Posts: 7588
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:43 pm UTC
Location: Nederland

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Zamfir » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:11 pm UTC

Are these trainings really about the kids? I get the impression they (and some part of gun carrying in general) are more a panacea to reduce anxiety. Of the gun carriyng teachers, or school leaders, or parents. People who read the news about school shootings and now picture them happening at their own school, regardless of the small odds. As a balanced response to school shootings, they don't seem to make much sense.

That's not necessarily a bad thing - it's good if people feel safer. But then it's better to judge effectiveness by that metric, do people feel safer after the training or after getting a gun?

User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 2086
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Sableagle » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:24 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:Kids are about one hundred times more likely to be killed by traffic accidents than by shootings, but nobody is making a ruckus about the need to save child pedestrians from dangerous motorists.

Coming next week: one teacher in each school being trained to drive the armoured bulldozer with a stop sign mounted on the turret with which they block the road so the kids can get to the school bus safely.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

User avatar
Dauric
Posts: 3988
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:58 pm UTC
Location: In midair, traversing laterally over a container of sharks. No water, just sharks, with lasers.

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Dauric » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:35 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:
ijuin wrote:Kids are about one hundred times more likely to be killed by traffic accidents than by shootings, but nobody is making a ruckus about the need to save child pedestrians from dangerous motorists.

Coming next week: one teacher in each school being trained to drive the armoured bulldozer with a stop sign mounted on the turret with which they block the road so the kids can get to the school bus safely.


Then they'll arm the bulldozer...
We're in the traffic-chopper over the XKCD boards where there's been a thread-derailment. A Liquified Godwin spill has evacuated threads in a fourty-post radius of the accident, Lolcats and TVTropes have broken free of their containers. It is believed that the Point has perished.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6783
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:37 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Are these trainings really about the kids? I get the impression they (and some part of gun carrying in general) are more a panacea to reduce anxiety. Of the gun carriyng teachers, or school leaders, or parents. People who read the news about school shootings and now picture them happening at their own school, regardless of the small odds. As a balanced response to school shootings, they don't seem to make much sense. Or intervention in their media consumption? (Aka stop listening to talking heads screeching about what's scary)

That's not necessarily a bad thing - it's good if people feel safer. But then it's better to judge effectiveness by that metric, do people feel safer after the training or after getting a gun?

Feeling is an odd metric. Wouldn't anti anxiety pills be a better response then?

User avatar
Thesh
Made to Fuck Dinosaurs
Posts: 6568
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:55 am UTC
Location: Colorado

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Thesh » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:42 pm UTC

Taking drugs isn't a permanent solution. Security blankets are.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

User avatar
Zamfir
I built a novelty castle, the irony was lost on some.
Posts: 7588
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:43 pm UTC
Location: Nederland

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Zamfir » Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:37 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Feeling is an odd metric. Wouldn't anti anxiety pills be a better response then?

No, why? It's not some mental health problem to worry about mass shootings, or to feel bad that you would be powerless if one occured near you.

Yes, they are rare, but no one's worries are affected by statistics. Statistics might convince people not to act on their worries, but they don't take away the worry itself. No matter how rare on paper, if you can imagine a mass shooting then you can worry about them.

elasto
Posts: 3750
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby elasto » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:06 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:Yes, they are rare, but no one's worries are affected by statistics. Statistics might convince people not to act on their worries, but they don't take away the worry itself.

But the issue here is that people are acting on their worries - specifically by arming teachers in schools.

Sardia is quite right to suggest that this is principally a mental health issue - both for the shooters and for those with a disproportionate worry over it. Contrast with, I dunno, climate change, which will probably kill 10000x as many people over the next century.

This is why demagoguery is so pernicious.

User avatar
Zamfir
I built a novelty castle, the irony was lost on some.
Posts: 7588
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:43 pm UTC
Location: Nederland

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Zamfir » Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:48 pm UTC

The rarity goes both ways, no? Mass shootings are rare, but apparently so are bad outcomes from having armed teachers. Even rarer, as far as I can tell. It's basically just people who bring a gun to work, take some trainings once in while that they might even enjoy, and eventually they retire without anything happening.

If that makes some teachers feel better by giving some semblance of control, then it's a plus. On the other hand, it might just encourage the worry by feeding its importance. Then it's a negative.

I don't see the mental health angle. Lots and lots of people are spooked by school shootings. It's how human beings work.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6783
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:09 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:The rarity goes both ways, no? Mass shootings are rare, but apparently so are bad outcomes from having armed teachers. Even rarer, as far as I can tell. It's basically just people who bring a gun to work, take some trainings once in while that they might even enjoy, and eventually they retire without anything happening.

If that makes some teachers feel better by giving some semblance of control, then it's a plus. On the other hand, it might just encourage the worry by feeding its importance. Then it's a negative.

I don't see the mental health angle. Lots and lots of people are spooked by school shootings. It's how human beings work.

That would depend on the scale of the treatment. For example some widespread cancer tests are bad because the rare false negatives are outweighed by the numbers of tests conducted.
For him
School training, it shouldn't really matter if it's isolated, but you should see effects on a wide scale. Right?

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 4060
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:26 pm UTC

Train the teachers to sing. All you need is a a good guy with a song.

Srsly though (having been reading this thread without comment about the predictable positions until just now, and probably being unwise to break my lurk at all), if teachers are already going armed into schools, make sure they are trained and assessed. If it is a deterrent to have the possibility of armed/armable teachers (identities unknown to those to be deterred) then you can surely err more towards caution for all practical purposes without removing that deterrent, while assuaging the complimentary concerns.

But you also need to sort all the other problems out. Right now, the minima of overall risk is hard to find. But it aint over at the end of the graph where every teacher, janitor and dinner-lady is armed to the teeth. Imagine a teacher tipping over the brink of extreme stress choosing their (least) favourite class as the time to put their weapon to use. Or, otherwise, a pupil (or even more than one, like Columbine) plans the perfect moment to tackle their educator to the ground and obtain 'sanctioned' weapons within the green-zone rather than risk bringing them in through the security cordon.

People will do these things not with any expectation of surviving them, and often with the expectation (and aim) that they will not, but "making a point" while they still can. Rational people are the easiest to protect against, but are also unlikely to need to be protected against. Trying things that only work against those that have gotten to that stage already is not optimal, I would say.

User avatar
Dauric
Posts: 3988
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:58 pm UTC
Location: In midair, traversing laterally over a container of sharks. No water, just sharks, with lasers.

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Dauric » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:35 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:Imagine a teacher tipping over the brink of extreme stress choosing their (least) favourite class as the time to put their weapon to use.


While the theme of the thread is teachers firing at students, this could easily apply to a distraught teacher using the weapon on themselves. A class of 30+ students watching their instructor blow their own brains out...
We're in the traffic-chopper over the XKCD boards where there's been a thread-derailment. A Liquified Godwin spill has evacuated threads in a fourty-post radius of the accident, Lolcats and TVTropes have broken free of their containers. It is believed that the Point has perished.

User avatar
Soupspoon
You have done something you shouldn't. Or are about to.
Posts: 4060
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:00 pm UTC
Location: 53-1

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:45 pm UTC

Aye, I actually left that open to either interpretation.

I don't fancy looking for examples of teachers who have done something like that, but the incident of news-person Christine Chubbuck has to be an obvious parallel case.

elasto
Posts: 3750
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 1:53 am UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby elasto » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:03 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:The rarity goes both ways, no? Mass shootings are rare, but apparently so are bad outcomes from having armed teachers.

I'm not so sure. I'm pretty sure I read that, in decades gone by, prior to school shootings by pupils being a 'thing' there was a rash of incidents of teacher shootings. By rearming teachers we seem to be going full circle.

(I can't find any links for that though so maybe it was just fake news.)

(A better solution would be to resolve America's unhealthy obsession with firearms as most other civilised nations have, but this isn't a generic gun-control thread...)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:04 pm UTC

elasto wrote:(A better solution would be to resolve America's unhealthy obsession with firearms as most other civilised nations have, but this isn't a generic gun-control thread...)


The root cause is action movies, tv shows, books, etc, that glamorize gun violence as a solution that resolves everything in 90 exciting minutes or 21 minutes rudely interrupted every 7 minutes for commercials or in 250 pages. Good luck with that...

Chen
Posts: 5569
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Chen » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:36 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The root cause is action movies, tv shows, books, etc, that glamorize gun violence as a solution that resolves everything in 90 exciting minutes or 21 minutes rudely interrupted every 7 minutes for commercials or in 250 pages. Good luck with that...


Those all exist up here in Canada and we dont have even remotely the same level of gun violence. So that’s probably not the root cause.

ijuin
Posts: 1061
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:02 pm UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby ijuin » Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:56 pm UTC

I would say that the root cause is a culture of conflict resolution that views the total eradication of opponents as the preferred method rather than persuasion or reconciliation.

jewish_scientist
Posts: 1026
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:15 pm UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby jewish_scientist » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:51 pm UTC

I think the root cause is a complicated web of factors that cannot be summarized in a single sentence.
"You are not running off with Cow-Skull Man Dracula Skeletor!"
-Socrates

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:05 am UTC

ijuin wrote:I would say that the root cause is a culture of conflict resolution that views the total eradication of opponents as the preferred method rather than persuasion or reconciliation.


...which is in large part created by the media that we consume.

jewish_scientist wrote:I think the root cause is a complicated web of factors that cannot be summarized in a single sentence.


Ok, yes, that too.

mashnut
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:15 pm UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby mashnut » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:40 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:Kids are about one hundred times more likely to be killed by traffic accidents than by shootings, but nobody is making a ruckus about the need to save child pedestrians from dangerous motorists.


No, the difference is nobody is making a ruckus to prevent doing things to make child pedestrians safer. You don’t have an NRA fighting school bus stop signs and school speed zones with extra enforcement, we just did those things.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10485
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:38 am UTC

Theres a world of difference between accidents and murder. If you dont understand that, then you failed the Turing test you filthy chatbot.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6819
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby ucim » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:15 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:There's a world of difference between accidents and murder.
Indeed there is. When a teacher shoots a student because they didn't do their homework, that's murder. When a classroom is under attack by another shooter, kids are being shot left and right, and the teacher gets three shots at that other shooter, one hits (and stops) the killer, and another hits a nearby student, that's an accident.

The questions of whether teachers should be able to bearmed, should be armed, and whether society has gotten to the point where this is even a question we're asking, are all different questions. In the larger scope of things, school shootings are still very rare; students face bigger threats all the time. Public policy that makes teachers armed agents of the state, and gets students used to that idea, is very damaging however and we should avoid this. But that is not the same as allowing (note: not the same as "encouraging") teachers to be armed. The difference is whether teachers are acting as agents of the state or as individual citizens with rights, and that difference evinces itself in public policy. The "why" is very important.

We are in a very authoritarian atmosphere. This is toxic. We need to step back from this, and ask ourselves whether, as a starting point, we trust our fellow citizens. This is not to say 100% of 100%; rather, it's on a basic level. Should we treat people as fundamentally good (though sometimes flawed), or as fundamentally bad (though sometimes useful).

With that as a guide, we can perhaps formulate better policy - on guns and on other things too.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Heartfelt thanks from addams and from me - you really made a difference.

mrmilom1990
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:12 am UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby mrmilom1990 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:43 pm UTC

I'm not a pro-gun or anti-gun but I believe that Teachers should be equipped with guns for protection. Of course, one must go proper training and must knowledgeable to handle critical situations.

Firearms are products of man's innovation and yet we must use this as tools to protect ourselves from harm and not to use in evil deeds. :)

I tried to post prior to this comment but rejected due to violation. I hope this will be counted. Thanks

Mutex
Posts: 1463
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:32 pm UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby Mutex » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:21 pm UTC

You say you're not pro-gun but then go on to make a straight-forward pro-gun argument. It kinda sounds like you're a pro-gunner trying to give the impression that sensible, un-biased people would agree with the pro-gun position, and the anti-gun position is somehow extreme or unpopular.

User avatar
SDK
Posts: 701
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:40 pm UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby SDK » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:45 pm UTC

mrmilom1990 wrote:Firearms are products of man's innovation and yet we must use this as tools to protect ourselves from harm...

Why must we use guns to protect ourselves? Why not use other means of protection instead?

There is also plenty of evidence that ownership of a gun actually increases the risk of harm to yourself. This is true of gun-related accidents, but also in cases where the individual attempted to use the gun in self-defense, only to have the aggressor either target them, or continue escalating because of the gun. In light of this, if reducing harm to yourself is the goal, doesn't it make more sense not to have a gun?
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

ijuin
Posts: 1061
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:02 pm UTC

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby ijuin » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:06 pm UTC

In that case, we need some statistics (preferably from a source that is not directly connected to tge lobbies for either side of the argument) measuring the approximate fraction of incidents in which an armed defender results in escalation vs. de-escalation.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6819
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Teachers being trained to kill kids

Postby ucim » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:40 am UTC

mrmilom1990 wrote:I believe that Teachers should be equipped with guns for protection.

From what? What grave danger do teachers face, that is so common that they must arm themselves with deadly weapons? Probably the most common way for a teacher to die in the line of duty is in a car accident on the way to class. Probably the least common is in a classroom shootout.

But a shootout gets more press.

So I think that you should look at actual data before making such a pronouncement.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Heartfelt thanks from addams and from me - you really made a difference.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests