Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

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Artemis Leon
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Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Artemis Leon » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:35 am UTC

I know this kind of thing makes the news every couple of years, but it's still outrageous to me that it happens in a developed nation in the twenty-first century. Worse still is the cavalier attitude of her parents.

And, there's this:

The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.

"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."


When did "They murdered one of their other children," stop being a valid reason to revoke custody?
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby ParanoidDrone » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:30 am UTC

WTF? That's...shocking.

While I certainly respect their right to their own religion, medical treatment is perfectly accessible and most certainly not against any religious doctrine (except Scientology, perhaps? I remember reading that somewhere...). I still can't believe they honestly thought it would just go away if they prayed hard enough. (and to my cynical mind these days, praying amounts to talking to the air - no offense meant to any religious people reading this)
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Silas » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:33 am UTC

These are, I'm guessing, Jehovah's Witnesses (it's simply inexcusable for the reporter to omit this information). And while I think the decision they made was the wrong one, I understand the sort of conviction and respect the dedication that it reflects. If it is better to die than to submit to the priests of some pagan faith, and physicians are the priests of modern atheism*, then the only possible choice a parent can make is the one these did.

*I have no particular reason to suggest that this is their belief- if anyone knows what that belief is, it can be substituted in without losing the sense of the thing.

Edit: missed that line in the article.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby BurntCornMuffin » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:55 am UTC

ParanoidDrone wrote:...medical treatment is perfectly accessible and most certainly not against any religious doctrine (except Scientology, perhaps? I remember reading that somewhere...).


Only psychological treatment, but that's still bad enough to kill (see: Lisa McPherson), and keep the ones who need it most dependent on their "religion" and more than willing to pay for their "services".

Back on topic though: I somewhat agree with what Silas says though, with the caveat that doctors can be and frequently are religious (at least, from what I saw). It is widely believed by themselves and their religious patients that their chosen deity works through that doctor. It's a pity that that girls parents never thought through that line of reasoning...that death was needless and preventable.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby akashra » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:57 am UTC

Of course the parents will be protected from prosecution, because the decision was on religious grounds.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby 22/7 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:41 am UTC

akashra wrote:Of course the parents will be protected from prosecution, because the decision was on religious grounds.

That's not how it works. If I shoot somebody in the head and fuck the brain hole based on "religious grounds", I'd go to jail. I would also probably be an electric retard comic.
BurntCornMuffin wrote:Only psychological treatment, but that's still bad enough to kill (see: Lisa McPherson), and keep the ones who need it most dependent on their "religion" and more than willing to pay for their "services".
I'm sorry, but are you saying this from your POV or from the possible POV of those described in the article?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Silas » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:48 am UTC

22/7 wrote:
BurntCornMuffin wrote:Only psychological treatment, but that's still bad enough to kill (see: Lisa McPherson), and keep the ones who need it most dependent on their "religion" and more than willing to pay for their "services".
I'm sorry, but are you saying this from your POV or from the possible POV of those described in the article?

I think he meant that Scientologists abhor psychological treatment, but that withholding such treatment can be lethal, as in the case of Lisa McPherson (who is not a Scientologist), who was refused psychiatric treatment (she went to a hospital for treatment but was sent home), then drowned her four (five?) children in the bathtub and was convicted of their murders. I don't recall whether she was given a death sentence, but I think not. As for 'keeping the ones who need it most dependent...,' I think he just has an axe to grind for the CoS.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby opsomath » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:53 am UTC

That's not how it works. If I shoot somebody in the head and fuck the brain hole based on "religious grounds", I'd go to jail. I would also probably be an electric retard


Thanks to you, I have now looked up "electric retard" annnnd I really think that might be the most disturbing thing I have ever seen. Does anyone here know how to un-see something?

But yeah, this story is ridiculous. It's astonishing there was no one around with the God-given sense to intervene.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Amnesiasoft » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:17 am UTC

I've never understood the idea of praying for an illness to be cured. I think Voltaire's song Dead put it best: Don't bother asking for cures or an answer, God is the one who gave you the cancer.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby 22/7 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:48 am UTC

Amnesiasoft wrote:I've never understood the idea of praying for an illness to be cured. I think Voltaire's song Dead put it best: Don't bother asking for cures or an answer, God is the one who gave you the cancer.
Really? You don't understand how someone who honestly believes that there is a loving, all-powerful god looking after them could ask that god to heal them when they got sick? Or do you mean you never understood the idea of believing in a god?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Ari » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:59 am UTC

Artemis Leon wrote:When did "They murdered one of their other children," stop being a valid reason to revoke custody?


I'm pretty outraged too, but this is a consequence of the right to refuse treatment. If we want to keep that, we have to fight this sort of thing through better education.

22/7 wrote:Really? You don't understand how someone who honestly believes that there is a loving, all-powerful god looking after them could ask that god to heal them when they got sick? Or do you mean you never understood the idea of believing in a god?


Omnibenevolence is a relatively new concept in religion, even in Christianity, 22/7. Not everyone who believes in God also believes in a "good" God, or at least, not everyone believes in a God that does nothing but good.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Amnesiasoft » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:26 am UTC

22/7 wrote:Really? You don't understand how someone who honestly believes that there is a loving, all-powerful god looking after them could ask that god to heal them when they got sick? Or do you mean you never understood the idea of believing in a god?

It's the fact that most of those people who would say you have to pray to God to cure something rather than see a Doctor are most likely the same ones who would say that God is the one who made you ill in the first place. From what I've seen, those people overlap quite a bit. If God was the one who made you ill, who are you to oppose it?

(And by the way, I'm an Atheist)

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby CrayolaTwo » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:42 am UTC

I firmly believe that there is a point where we cannot risk skirting the issue and must confront people who believe damaging things like this. The right to refuse treatment is one thing. That comes from people who are beyond medical treatment and there's a good chance that continuing treatment will cause more pain than relief.

This is NOT a case like that. This girl had DIABETES. That is not an incurable disease. It's an incredibly flawed comparison.

And furthermore, the right to refuse treatment is a right of adults; children cannot make proper health decisions on their own. Clearly, her parents couldn't either. In this case it is imperative for someone to step in and help. We're not talking about an issue. This isn't a Christmas tree on public grounds or the words "In God We Trust" on the bill; this WAS someone's LIFE. There is a little girl who is dead because of this.

Yes, there have been cases of minors with incurable cancers refusing treatment, and their parents supporting them, so that blows a small hole in my argument. But that is still an incredibly different situation. I completely understand the need for freedom of religion, but not when it directly causes someone's death.

Moreover, I am sometimes SO disappointed in my state.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Ari » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:50 am UTC

And furthermore, the right to refuse treatment is a right of adults; children cannot make proper health decisions on their own. Clearly, her parents couldn't either.


As I understand it, unless the parents can be considered incapacitated in some respect, they still get to exercise the child's right to refuse treatment in proxy.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby 22/7 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:50 am UTC

Ari wrote:
22/7 wrote:Really? You don't understand how someone who honestly believes that there is a loving, all-powerful god looking after them could ask that god to heal them when they got sick? Or do you mean you never understood the idea of believing in a god?


Omnibenevolence is a relatively new concept in religion, even in Christianity, 22/7. Not everyone who believes in God also believes in a "good" God, or at least, not everyone believes in a God that does nothing but good.
I'm very aware of that, which is why I didn't address it. The god in question being a benevolent god was actually one of my prerequisites, which I bolded.
Amnesiasoft wrote:It's the fact that most of those people who would say you have to pray to God to cure something rather than see a Doctor are most likely the same ones who would say that God is the one who made you ill in the first place. From what I've seen, those people overlap quite a bit. If God was the one who made you ill, who are you to oppose it?

(And by the way, I'm an Atheist)
I figured you were. It is my understanding that many Christians are taught that it's a natural thing to feel fear or be uncomfortable with uncertainty (note Jesus' behavior in the garden shortly before his crucifixion) and that God heals people who have faith in him (lots of the Gospel and some of the OT, though mostly in the Gospel). They're taught from a very young age that, if you have some ailment and you want to be healed that your faith can heal you. Hell, it brought Lazarus back to life.
CrayolaTwo wrote:Yes, there have been cases of minors with incurable cancers refusing treatment, and their parents supporting them, so that blows a small hole in my argument. But that is still an incredibly different situation.
I didn't read the article, so I'm not completely up to date on what happened, but if the kid was all for the "pray for health" approach, it's actually exactly the same situation. And to be honest, going by what the kid thinks is a really poor approach anyway, since that will force you to draw a line in the sand as to how old the kid has to be before he can make that kind of decision ("no, I don't want that shot, I don't care if it is a vaccination for a horrible, life-threatening disease, it'll hurt my arm" said the four-year-old to his mommy). To be honest, the least perilous approach that I can see (as far as the law is concerned, anyway) is to make it purely the judgment of the parent(s).
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby CrayolaTwo » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:01 am UTC

I'm sorry, but I refuse to compare diabetes with cancer (or other similarly devastating diseases). And yeah, I think going with the parents on what do to in regards to children's health is usually the best option. It doesn't work in this case. These people are not capable of making a sound decision--the death of their daughter from a completely manageable disease is proof of that.

Are you seriously going to tell me that if this girl had been shot in the leg and had bleed to death and the parents did nothing but pray... that that DOESN'T count as negligence? Or what if they had stopped feeding their children, instead choosing to pray for their little girl to not be hungry? There's a slippery slope on the other side of this issue, too.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby 22/7 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:12 am UTC

CrayolaTwo wrote:I'm sorry, but I refuse to compare diabetes with cancer (or other similarly devastating diseases). And yeah, I think going with the parents on what do to in regards to children's health is usually the best option. It doesn't work in this case. These people are not capable of making a sound decision--the death of their daughter from a completely manageable disease is proof of that.

Are you seriously going to tell me that if this girl had been shot in the leg and had bleed to death and the parents did nothing but pray... that that DOESN'T count as negligence? Or what if they had stopped feeding their children, instead choosing to pray for their little girl to not be hungry? There's a slippery slope on the other side of this issue, too.

You can refuse to compare them all you want, but when it comes down to it, they're not really all that different. You can choose to treat them or not, and if the girl in the article (and her family) chose to decline the treatment, it doesn't matter if it was cancer seeping out of every pore of her body or a minor infection, it's still a disease and it can still be deadly if not treated. Also, I never argued that it wasn't negligence, I simply argued that the best scenario is really to allow the parents to make the decision, as this will usually not lead to the death of the child.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Azrael » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:18 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
CrayolaTwo wrote:Yes, there have been cases of minors with incurable cancers refusing treatment, and their parents supporting them, so that blows a small hole in my argument. But that is still an incredibly different situation.
I didn't read the article, so I'm not completely up to date on what happened, but if the kid was all for the "pray for health" approach, it's actually exactly the same situation. ... To be honest, the least perilous approach that I can see (as far as the law is concerned, anyway) is to make it purely the judgment of the parent(s).

A) Read the article. It will take less time than composing a response to this post. Unfortunately though, it does not address whether the child was a willing participant.

B) When a parent's decisions directly endanger the life of a minor, the state has every right & precedence to intercede on the minor's behalf. However, not every individual state agrees whether you should extend that concept into the realm of forcing medical treatment. Especially over religious objections.

Some previous cases similar to this have resulted in charges being filed. As the article states, that decision will be made by the DA.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby segmentation fault » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:25 pm UTC

Silas wrote:*I have no particular reason to suggest that this is their belief- if anyone knows what that belief is, it can be substituted in without losing the sense of the thing.


yeah i only think its with certain kinds of treatments like transfusions.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Arancaytar » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:37 pm UTC

If an illness is terminal when left untreated, then refusing treatment should be considered requesting assisted suicide. Whether it was cancer or diabetes is imho irrelevant - refusing treatment and assisting your suicide is a decision that a parent cannot make for their child. Cancer has the added issue that the treatment often merely prolongs life, and involves significant suffering - but it's still your own decision to make. This is murder.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:42 pm UTC

Legally, 11 year olds can't make decisions, and legally refusing treatment != suicide. For some reason.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Arancaytar » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:15 pm UTC

Legally, 11 year olds can't make decisions,


Yes, but that does not mean the decision can be made by their parent. Children are not allowed to drive cars, drink alcohol or have sex regardless of whether their parents allow them to. Refusing vital medical treatment should be on that list.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:22 pm UTC

They're not allowed to drive cars even with parents permission because it tends to kill people other than the parents and children. State depending, parents are indeed allowed to give their children alcohol or let them have sex.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Artemis Leon » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:39 pm UTC

Silas wrote:
22/7 wrote:
BurntCornMuffin wrote:Only psychological treatment, but that's still bad enough to kill (see: Lisa McPherson), and keep the ones who need it most dependent on their "religion" and more than willing to pay for their "services".
I'm sorry, but are you saying this from your POV or from the possible POV of those described in the article?

I think he meant that Scientologists abhor psychological treatment, but that withholding such treatment can be lethal, as in the case of Lisa McPherson (who is not a Scientologist), who was refused psychiatric treatment (she went to a hospital for treatment but was sent home), then drowned her four (five?) children in the bathtub and was convicted of their murders. I don't recall whether she was given a death sentence, but I think not. As for 'keeping the ones who need it most dependent...,' I think he just has an axe to grind for the CoS.


No, Lisa McPherson died of negligence under Scientologist care after being detained by the church for receiving psychiatric treatment. I'm not sure who you're thinking of, but it's not Lisa McPherson.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Artemis Leon » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:45 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
CrayolaTwo wrote:I'm sorry, but I refuse to compare diabetes with cancer (or other similarly devastating diseases). And yeah, I think going with the parents on what do to in regards to children's health is usually the best option. It doesn't work in this case. These people are not capable of making a sound decision--the death of their daughter from a completely manageable disease is proof of that.

Are you seriously going to tell me that if this girl had been shot in the leg and had bleed to death and the parents did nothing but pray... that that DOESN'T count as negligence? Or what if they had stopped feeding their children, instead choosing to pray for their little girl to not be hungry? There's a slippery slope on the other side of this issue, too.

You can refuse to compare them all you want, but when it comes down to it, they're not really all that different. You can choose to treat them or not, and if the girl in the article (and her family) chose to decline the treatment, it doesn't matter if it was cancer seeping out of every pore of her body or a minor infection, it's still a disease and it can still be deadly if not treated. Also, I never argued that it wasn't negligence, I simply argued that the best scenario is really to allow the parents to make the decision, as this will usually not lead to the death of the child.


And that's good enough? Parents should be allowed to kill their children, because most of them will choose not to?
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby lowbart » Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:58 pm UTC

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Last edited by lowbart on Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:16 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Belial » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:27 pm UTC

22/7 wrote: I simply argued that the best scenario is really to allow the parents to make the decision, as this will usually not lead to the death of the child.


Whereas leaving it up to the doctors will lead to the death of the child even less often. Because they're trained and certified medical professionals that have some idea what they're talking about, and the parents are some randomly selected pair of people whose only inherent qualifications are occasionally-functioning gonads.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:33 pm UTC

In most cases one of them doesn't even have that...

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby CrayolaTwo » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:35 pm UTC

And really, you can't view diseases with a one-size-fits-all mindset. Sure, almost everything if left untreated will kill you. But we are at such drastically different levels of treatment for them.

I am mostly concerned with the children remaining in this home. These people are not capable of being parents.

I agree that overall parents should overall be in charge of their children's welfare because usually they have their children's best interests in mind. But when parents make horrible decisions like refuse to have their daughter treated for a completely treatable disease, then they need that right taken away. These people are not fit to be parents.

And assisted suicide is another topic entirely, thankyouverymuch.

The main point is that you cannot speak about this topic in black-and-whites. All diseases are not the same, nor are the treatments available for them. We can continue to debate about whether or not refusing treatment for an inoperable malignant brain tumor (for example) is murder, but for a case like this it should be much simpler.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby segmentation fault » Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:43 pm UTC

ok, you know what, she didnt just die:

an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.


she was basically tortured. the parents should be imprisoned.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Silas » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:15 pm UTC

For contrast, we have fat kids. The distinction seems obvious to me. The morbidly obese Scots have demonstrated an inability to act on their (presumptive) judgement: they know their kids are too fat, but they're to weak-willed, dumb, or lazy to deal with it (or some combination of the three); the Neumanns made a contentious (most of us would say wrong) value judgment.

It's fairly easy to construct a(n admittedly fantastic) scenario where people with mainstream beliefs would decide that it's better for their child to die than to be sustained by wicked medicine. I've changed just one part of the scenario we read about:

Suppose you take your daughter in for a check-up, and the doctor says, "Bad news and good news. Susan has diabetes. But there's a safe, effective treatment. It's the mashed-up pulp of a Kenyan's brain."
"But... but... we just kill a black man and take his brain?"
"It's legal- quirk of the law: in Uganda, where we harvest them, they're not technically considered people."
You shoot a pleading look to your lawyer, who's just stepped out of an adjoining examination room.
"Strange but true," he says, and flashes a thumbs-up.
"We divvy up the brains pretty efficiently, so there's not much waste. Your daughter will need about the equivalent of one adult man every two-to-three years. Oh, and don't worry, we sterilize them very carefully, so there's no danger of infection"

There're doubtless some people who would be ok with this. Maybe you're one of them. Maybe you think that it'd be unreasonable to refuse the Kenyan-brain treatment. But you can't deny that a significant number of otherwise-reasonable people would rather see their progeny die than live off the flesh of innocents. It would absolutely be a parent's perogative to make that decision on her child's behalf. The only difference between this scenario and the one in Wisconsin is that you believe (without evidence- put that in your atheist bong and smoke it) that it's worse to murder Kenyans and take their brains than to despair in God's help and see a doctor. I happen to agree with that belief, but it is strictly a value judgment.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby BurntCornMuffin » Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:30 pm UTC

Artemis Leon wrote:
Silas wrote:I think he meant that Scientologists abhor psychological treatment, but that withholding such treatment can be lethal, as in the case of Lisa McPherson...


No, Lisa McPherson died of negligence under Scientologist care after being detained by the church for receiving psychiatric treatment. I'm not sure who you're thinking of, but it's not Lisa McPherson.


Silas, you were correct in what I meant to say, but the person you described was not Lisa McPherson: Lisa was a scientology adherent since the age of 18. In November, 1995, she had a minor car accident, and was placed in the hospital for what seemed to be psychological trauma. Scientologists intervened, taking her to a religious care center of their own. She died on December 5, 1995 of a pulmonary embolism. Autopsies revealed she had bedsores cockroach bites on her body. Scientologist care logs show that she was bedridden and restrained to prevent injuries during her psychotic outbreaks, and also that people who were questioned about her treatment were told to "butt out." She was unconscious for three days before she was pronounced dead at a Scientologist-run hospital about 2 hours away from where she was staying.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Silas » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:18 pm UTC

BurntCornMuffin wrote:
Artemis Leon wrote:
No, Lisa McPherson died of negligence under Scientologist care after being detained by the church for receiving psychiatric treatment. I'm not sure who you're thinking of, but it's not Lisa McPherson.


Silas, you were correct in what I meant to say, but the person you described was not Lisa McPherson....


Yeah, the woman I was thinking of is named Andrea Yates; I couldn't remember her name, and her story seemed to fit the context. oops.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby 22/7 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:40 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:
22/7 wrote:
CrayolaTwo wrote:Yes, there have been cases of minors with incurable cancers refusing treatment, and their parents supporting them, so that blows a small hole in my argument. But that is still an incredibly different situation.
I didn't read the article, so I'm not completely up to date on what happened, but if the kid was all for the "pray for health" approach, it's actually exactly the same situation. ... To be honest, the least perilous approach that I can see (as far as the law is concerned, anyway) is to make it purely the judgment of the parent(s).

A) Read the article. It will take less time than composing a response to this post. Unfortunately though, it does not address whether the child was a willing participant.

B) When a parent's decisions directly endanger the life of a minor, the state has every right & precedence to intercede on the minor's behalf. However, not every individual state agrees whether you should extend that concept into the realm of forcing medical treatment. Especially over religious objections.

Some previous cases similar to this have resulted in charges being filed. As the article states, that decision will be made by the DA.

A) how will the article deal with what I said in a way that I didn't already cover?
B)I totally understand that. I'm not saying the parents did the right thing. Why do you people keep thinking I'm backing the parent here?

I'll address everything else after class.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Azrael » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:24 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
Azrael wrote:
22/7 wrote:To be honest, the least perilous approach that I can see (as far as the law is concerned, anyway) is to make it purely the judgment of the parent(s).

When a parent's decisions directly endanger the life of a minor, the state has every right & precedence to intercede on the minor's behalf. However, not every individual state agrees whether you should extend that concept into the realm of forcing medical treatment. Especially over religious objections.

Why do you people keep thinking I'm backing the parent here?
... Or perhaps I was disagreeing with your stated opinion that the least perilous approach is leaving the judgment purely with the parents.

You know. Sorta like that.

Also: Are you really defending entering a discussion about a news story without having read that story? Really?

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby psyck0 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:58 pm UTC

I am going to say my gut reaction here, flame me for it if you like.

This is why I despise religion. Utterly despise it. All it has ever done in our history is hold us back and harm us.

Bah. This has ruined my mood.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Indon » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:07 pm UTC

Arancaytar wrote:Children are not allowed to drive cars, drink alcohol or have sex regardless of whether their parents allow them to.


In America, minors of various ages can do all of those things, with parental permission and sometimes additional regulation.

For instance, to drive a car, a minor needs supervision (and I'm pretty sure in many states, they need to be above a certain minimum age).

Alcohol requires parental permission and supervision, and I think there are limits as to where the kid can have alcohol (at a restaraunt or some kind of ceremony is probably okay, for instance, whereas taking your kid to a bar might raise eyebrows).

And in almost every state in the US, the legal age for marriage is lower than the age of consent (It varies by state, I do believe ranging from 14-16 while the age of consent ranges from 16-18), and parental permission is required to get married before the age of consent. And guess what a minor can do if lawfully married?

My point is, America's culture has a long individualist history, despite recent trends to the contrary, and many of our laws reflect this.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby 22/7 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:09 pm UTC

Artemis Leon wrote:And that's good enough? Parents should be allowed to kill their children, because most of them will choose not to?

You're completely ignoring the fact that I'm talking about "legally perilous". Once you start allowing the state to make decision x about a minor's health, other decisions may surely follow. I'm simply looking at it from a legal standpoint.
Belial wrote:
22/7 wrote: I simply argued that the best scenario is really to allow the parents to make the decision, as this will usually not lead to the death of the child.


Whereas leaving it up to the doctors will lead to the death of the child even less often. Because they're trained and certified medical professionals that have some idea what they're talking about, and the parents are some randomly selected pair of people whose only inherent qualifications are occasionally-functioning gonads.
As above, it's the best scenario when trying to avoid legal pitfalls, not necessarily the best scenario when trying to avoid dead children. And again, as above, once a doctor has the right to force treatment on a child (or the state has the right, or anyone other than the parents), you take a step down the slippery slope of all children being wards of the sate.
CrayolaTwo wrote:And really, you can't view diseases with a one-size-fits-all mindset. Sure, almost everything if left untreated will kill you. But we are at such drastically different levels of treatment for them.

I am mostly concerned with the children remaining in this home. These people are not capable of being parents.
First of all, if refusing treatment will lead to death, then it's the exact same decision, simply on different timescales, so the disease is, indeed the same thing. Not all diseases are fatal (ish), and so those should not be treated as the same. But if the disease is fatal (when left untreated) then it all falls into the same category. Secondly, I agree that there should be lots of concern for the children's health here. I'm not arguing that what the parents did was right, I'm simply saying that the legally-least-perilous approach is to leave the decision in the hands of the parents.
Azrael wrote:... Or perhaps I was disagreeing with your stated opinion that the least perilous approach is leaving the judgment purely with the parents.

You know. Sorta like that.
How did every single person who replied to my post miss the fact that I was saying it was the least perilous in a legal sense? *Checks* Yup, it's there. Are we not reading each other's posts now?

Azrael wrote:Also: Are you really defending entering a discussion about a news story without having read that story? Really?
What I said had a qualifier on it. If she refused treatment, it's basically the same as the cancer patient mentioned earlier. How is anything in the article going to invalidate what I wrote? If you can legitimately answer that question, then I'll be glad to admit I was wrong here. But I can't for the life of me see any amount of information that would invalidate that point.
psyck0 wrote:This is why I despise religion. Utterly despise it. All it has ever done in our history is hold us back and harm us.
You're not one of those people who sees gray very often, are you? Enter Fearbears: "This is retarded, you're an idiot."
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby 4=5 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:12 pm UTC

it's not religion that's the problem, it is people who are.
Last edited by 4=5 on Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:45 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Blubb3r3ng3l » Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:22 pm UTC

Silas wrote:I think he meant that Scientologists abhor psychological treatment, but that withholding such treatment can be lethal, as in the case of Lisa McPherson (who is not a Scientologist), who was refused psychiatric treatment (she went to a hospital for treatment but was sent home), then drowned her four (five?) children in the bathtub and was convicted of their murders. I don't recall whether she was given a death sentence, but I think not. As for 'keeping the ones who need it most dependent...,' I think he just has an axe to grind for the CoS.


Wait wait wait... which Lisa McPherson are YOU talking about? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_mcpherson That is the Lisa McPherson that I am familiar with, perhaps you are thinking of somebody else... or there is another case involving another Lisa. Anyways, I understand what you are trying to prove. Scientology has had a remarkably high suicide rate (Citation needed, I know), and I've never really understood the 'healing power of god' when medical practices exist that can cure simple diseases, or treat them. What is to say, and I am serious, please tell me what exactly is to say, that modern medical practices aren't manna from heaven themselves? Why can't people in certain churches (again, please show me doctrine if you know if it) accept simple cures for simple diseases? Are they devices of the devil? If God really wanted to kill someone, couldn't he do it in a way that was in a lot of situations incurable, like, you know, cancer or leukemia or something?

Seems to me, and has always seemed to me, thatif there was a God who really wanted you dead, he could make you dead, regardless of medical advances. Shouldn't these instances of illness be perceived by the devout as times to reaffirm their faith in God through recovery, not as 'I have scurvy, but instead of eating an orange every day, I'll just die'?

To me, there is no difference between ingesting food as a preventative to death, and ingesting and regulating insulin to prevent diabetic death. Both are available. Technically, I would die if I didn't eat. Does this mean God wants me dead, and I shouldn't eat, because that goes against his/her divine will? If a simple injection of insulin will prevent me from going into diabetic shock, shouldn't I do that?

Anyways, I'm ranting. Back to the article

The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.
.

that really got to me. Like, a ton.
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