Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

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Silas
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Silas » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:54 am UTC

Excuse me. Maybe I should have spelled out that your choices are bounded by the law; I thought this was obvious. But the law does not compel a sick person to go to a doctor; there are numerous valid reasons why one might choose not to.

An eleven-year-old girl is legally unable to decide whether or not to go to the doctor. It's an adult decision that has to be made, but she isn't a competent adult. When minor children (or anyone else, come to think of it) are unable to make their own decisions, someone else is appointed (here, the parents). They're to use their judgment to choose, not what the subject would want- it's undefined in this case anyway, since the girl was incompetent- but what's best for the subject. It makes no sense to invest a decision in an agent, but then turn around and tell them what their decision has to be.

In other words, you can't disqualify the parents from deciding by reference to what their decision is. To show that they're incompetent to stand in for their daughter, you have to show either that they lack the facility to do so (but this family doesn't seem to have any pathology, except for the diabetes thing) or that they are likely to choose on some basis other than her interests.

In yet other words, if the parents' decision is damning evidence that they should never have been allowed to decide in the first place, then it follows that any adult who, in a situation like the girl's, refuses to go to a doctor, also should never have been allowed to make that decision in the first place- that he is mentally incompetent. But we stipulated (well, I stipulated; maybe you disagree) that there are valid reasons why a competent adult would refuse treatment. (Contradiction.)
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Belial » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:58 am UTC

You don't have to show them to be incompetent. Just negligent.

A person can choose to starve themselves to death, and that's their choice, but they can't choose to deny their children food until they die. Extrapolate as necessary.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Silas » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:07 am UTC

Belial wrote:You don't have to show them to be incompetent. Just negligent.

A person can choose to starve themselves to death, and that's their choice, but they can't choose to deny their children food until they die. Extrapolate as necessary.


But they're plainly not negligent. They weren't ignorant of her sickness. They didn't act with callous disregard to her sickness. They didn't treat her sickness as anything less that the most serious crisis of the time.

And it's not strictly your prerogative to starve yourself to death. A suicide attempt is presumptive grounds for incompetence, paving the way for your executor to have a feeding tube installed.

Please, think about and respond to the part in bold. It's the crux of my point.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Belial » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:11 am UTC

The point in bold is irrelevant, as it's not a question of competence, it's a question of the child's safety as protected by the law and child services.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Silas » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:21 am UTC

Belial wrote:The point in bold is irrelevant, as it's not a question of competence, it's a question of the child's safety as protected by the law and child services.


It seems patently obvious the the law and child services are satisfied with the parents' behavior. They're not being censured in any way, and it appears there will be no legal repercussions of any kind.

The child is "safe" under the law as long as she's in the care of a competent guardian. Little is more relevant than competence.

More on something said above: In order to say that the parents were negligent, you'd have to show that the only responsible course, on learning of a grave sickness, is (or, slightly more formally, that every responsible course includes) consulting a doctor. But the law concedes that responsible people might choose not to do so.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby schmiggen » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:34 am UTC

The parents' decision led to their child's death. In general, we have considered this to be a bad outcome. As a society, we tend to exert pressure toward preventing what is, on average, considered bad. I think this is okay.

It's irrelevant whether or why the parents might have had no choice (because their belief system => they don't even think of a doctor as a reasonable or helpful option?) but to act as they did; hopefully, they will learn from being scorned for it (if not from the death of their child) that certain aspects of they way they had been acting lead to undesirable outcomes.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby ansuzmannaz » Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:59 am UTC

Silas wrote:Treason against the Almighty is probably worse than murder. In fact, treason against earthly powers is generally treated as worse than murder under earthly codes. Supposing that those codes are correct in this regard, and that God is a higher power than the Queen, revolting against God is worse than revolting against the Queen is worse than murder.


And what is the basis of that authority? That Yahweh is bigger and more powerful than us? That would be rule by the blade of a sword, and last I checked that was not just.

Earthly authority is derived from the consent of the governed. Governments exist to protect the inalienable rights of their citizens. When those governments fail, we are entitled to replace them. The founding fathers of the United States were considered traitors to the crown by the Britisih royalty, but today, at least on this side of the pond, they are hailed as heroes. One man's treason is another man's glorious revolution. The way to tell between the two is whether the act was in the best interest of the people of the country. Treason only has weight as a charge if the authority defied derives his or her power from the people, and if defiance of that authority would undermine the well-being of the people.

There is no reason the same shouldn't apply to heavenly authorities. If a god commands his followers to seek only his help when their children are sick, and one of them defies that god by going to a doctor, because it is in the best interests of the child, it is a justified 'betrayal'. Because it is in the best interests of the governed, and intercessory prayer doesn't work. (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_2_24/ai_60302608/pg_1) Given the ineffectiveness of prayer, the domineering dogma that obedience is mandatory, and the fact there is no system for replacing a deity if it does not represent his flock's best interests, the God of the Bible is hardly worth the deference offered him. A personal god that calls people to him but casts their prayers away is a tyrant undeserving the authority vested in him.

But more in the vein of what I was saying, earlier, you've presented no compelling reason, other than an easily-dismissed equivalence between the lord of all creation and a pouting kindergartener, for your claim that murder is worse than insulting God.


Well, it's an apt comparison, isn't it? "You didn't pray to me enough! Go to hell!" sounds a lot like a kindergardener, though I'm certain Yahweh would use a lot of thee's and thou's to disguise the fundamental petulance of his complaint. If we teach our children that "sticks and stones will break [their] bones, but words cannot hurt [them]," or that they shouldn't be hurt if someone doesn't want to play with them, and that tolerance and restraint are virtues and signs of maturity, why shouldn't that extend to Yahweh? After all, his domain is of over fourteen billion light years of space. Why should the opinions of a few billion puny humans matter to him? And how does using safe, tested, effective, and ethical medical treatments in stead of prayer cause grievous harm to Yahweh? The comparison you make in your example does not match up: that is libel, which does cause grievous harm, not simple name-calling. And it certainly is not deciding to use medicine in the place of mysticism for the sake of another life to which grievous harm can occur.

This brings me back to my main objection to your previous post, which I'm afraid I didn't express in the clearest way. You say that we have no good reason for our decision that eating the brain of a Kenyan to heal yourself is worse than going to a doctor in defiance of God's will. But I do not see any good rationale for why the parents would make the opposite decision. Are you saying they do have one? Furthermore, now you say I have not given a compelling reason to indicate murder is worse than insulting God. I have answered that challenge here. Now I challenge you: what reason do you have for asserting the opposite?

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Silas » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:13 am UTC

This is a fun theological debate, one I've had before and will gladly have again. But this isn't the place for it; the origins of divine and secular authority just aren't germane enough to an article about a girl who died of diabetes because her parents preferred to pray for healing than to get insulin shots. If you want to carry this on, PM me or, better, start a thread about it.

As to what is germane to the topic at hand, I do not assert that affronting God by consulting a doctor rather than relying on intercessory prayer is a graver crime than murder. Rather that, if I did believe so, no indignation on your part, however loud, vehement or sincere, would suffice to dislodge me from that position.

Further, that a pluralist republic cannot allow one belief to trump another by virtue of superior numbers, lest it teeter at the brink and finally descend into the tyranny of the majority; instead, it must reserve a certain equal dignity for every belief sincerely held. Specifically, every sincerely held belief must accord to its believers the right to order their affairs after that belief (constrained pragmatically but minimally by law). Importantly, chief among the affairs to be ordered is the raising of children and their indoctrination into their parents' belief.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby michaelandjimi » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:24 am UTC

Silas wrote:I do not assert that affronting God by consulting a doctor rather than relying on intercessory prayer is a graver crime than murder. Rather that, if I did believe so, no indignation on your part, however loud, vehement or sincere, would suffice to dislodge me from that position.


I'm still not sure that going to the doctor's is an insult to God. I mean, it's just giving you a better chance to live. To use an oft-quoted analogy, Christians still look both ways when crossing the street.

That is, they don't rely on the Will of The Almighty to protect them from a high-velocity vehicle. They shouldn't rely on God to protect them from an illness, even if it is a less tangible danger.

Moreover, the commandments say "Do not murder." They do not say "Do not rely on doctors, rather thou shalt only rely on intercessory prayer."

I believe they were criminally negligent. However, there is reasonable evidence to assume that they won't do it again, in my opinion. They had their child's best interests at heart. They probably have, as previously stated, totally messed up their belief system and such, and I assume will probably have the doctor's try and treat their next child, should something occur. This may not happen, though, they may come back with more resolve in their faith...

I think I'd need more evidence rather than a short article to take their children away.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Aperfectring » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:40 pm UTC

First off, I want to make it clear that I strongly disagree with the choice these parents made, but believe that it is their right to do so. I also want to make it clear that I am an atheist, because with some of the comments below, people may think otherwise.

It is irrelevant whether anyone else can see how a person's deity would be angry with them for accepting medical treatment. The only relevant thing is that they believe it, and that they have the right to believe it. The law in the US allows for a legally sane adult to refuse medical treatment for any reason, or no reason whatsoever, and not be deemed incompetent solely for that choice. I strongly agree with this law, because, as a mentally competent adult, I should have the choice of what gets done with my body.

The concept of a "legal guardian" is such that any person who is unable to make decision for themselves, should have another person who is competent be able to make the decisions based on what is best for them. This applies to the legally insane, mentally handicapped, and children. I also strongly agree with this law, as without it, only the government could make choices about these people, which I would find very undesirable.

Looking from the parents' point of view, stepping into their beliefs, they had to either choose to let their daughter die, but allowing her to have eternal bliss and happiness, or choose to have their daughter live, but condemning her to eternal damnation. In their eyes, they just gave their daughter eternal bliss and happiness, and that was the best gift they could give.

There is always going to be an arbitrary line which defines what is acceptable, and what is not. How is it that a mentally competent person with a disease can legally choose to let that disease kill them, but a that same person cannot legally choose to shoot themselves with a gun? Are all people who want their life to end mentally incompetent by default?

I do not condone what these parents have done, but I do understand their point of view. I also believe that they have the right to do it, as legal guardians of their children. If guardianship were removed in this instance, it would likely be implied (or at least interpreted by some) that by holding their beliefs, they became mentally incompetent.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Silas » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:01 pm UTC

michaelandjimi wrote:I'm still not sure that going to the doctor's is an insult to God. I mean, it's just giving you a better chance to live. To use an oft-quoted analogy, Christians still look both ways when crossing the street.

That is, they don't rely on the Will of The Almighty to protect them from a high-velocity vehicle. They shouldn't rely on God to protect them from an illness, even if it is a less tangible danger.

Moreover, the commandments say "Do not murder." They do not say "Do not rely on doctors, rather thou shalt only rely on intercessory prayer."


I'm halfway tempted to spend an hour concocting a(n, albeit flimsy,) textual argument against medicine, but that would just mask the fact that I agree. Theirs is a stupid theology. But what what I don't want to see, and you probably don't, either*, is the courts getting into the business of deciding what theologies are too stupid to be allowed to continue.

*If you think this is a good idea, you presumably think you have a theory of religion that can stand up to any argument. Test it out on strangers before mounting a reckless constitutional jihad to create the Bureau of Faith. Remember, you have to convince them, not just keep your own convictions until they give up and move on.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Blubb3r3ng3l » Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:14 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
Blubb3r3ng3l wrote:Regardless of whether or not they got protection from it or not, the whole religion aspect of it IS, whether you like it or not, thrown into this case. Where exactly do they get the protection of not having their other children removed from them. They are investigating this further, but religion WILL and IS ALREADY in the mix in this case, as it was the basis for them not seeking medical advice.

YOU SAID
Blubb3r3ng3l wrote:However, the whole freedom of religion thing IS thrown in here... gah. This is one of the few 'biggies' that I do truly ride the fence on.


I don't see what is arguing with itself here. I don't think refusal of medical help is a religious thing in all cases, but this case appears to be. I don't think anything can happen to the parents, I don't think it's right for that to be the case, but I can't justify forcing people to accept treatment, because there will always be the exception that proves the rule.

Like I said, I ride the fence on this one. What exactly were you trying to prove by throwing these two quotes of mine together?
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Silas » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:37 pm UTC

(Image I'm saying this in a carefully non-combative tone)

What fence are you sitting on, exactly? I perceive three questions about the situation at hand, any or all of which you might be talking about:

(1) Did the girl's parents make the right decision, not to take their daughter to the doctor when the realized she was sick. (all right, all right, I have a hard time imagining that you or anyone else on these fora entertain serious doubts)

(2) Should Child Protective Services (or some other duly appointed agency) remove the family's other children from their parents' care over this?

(3) If the girl were still alive, and her parents were stubbornly refusing to let doctors near her, should CPS (or someone else) be able to force them to admit doctors?
(3a) Supposing they were able, should they have done so in this case?
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby 22/7 » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:14 am UTC

Blubb3r3ng3l wrote:I don't see what is arguing with itself here. I don't think refusal of medical help is a religious thing in all cases, but this case appears to be. I don't think anything can happen to the parents, I don't think it's right for that to be the case, but I can't justify forcing people to accept treatment, because there will always be the exception that proves the rule.

Like I said, I ride the fence on this one. What exactly were you trying to prove by throwing these two quotes of mine together?

Religion != Freedom of Religion. You're either using them interchangeably or forgetting what you've said in previous posts.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby schmiggen » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:59 am UTC

Because I honestly don't know what you guys would say to this...

Is there a difference, in terms of your responsibility for the child's death, between:
-directly killing (slitting throat, slow, painless poisoning in sleep, however) your child because your religion has convinced you that this will send him/her to heaven where he/she will live more happily and easily
-failing to keep your child alive because your religion has convinced you that the best way to keep your child alive and happy is to pray for him/her
?

I am under the impression that the first case would give us legal grounds to punish you. The second, apparently, wouldn't.

I don't distinguish between them in terms of your responsibility, and neither even feels more gruesome to me than the other.


Sortof@Aperfectring:
I hate it when people assume that "I have the (legal) right to do X" or even "I should have the right to do X" is the same as "Nobody should be able to judge me for doing X."

Freedom of religion works to avoid theocracy and maybe other forms of tyranny. It does not equate all religions or beliefs, nor their consequences. If you make a stupid decision, it doesn't matter what led you to your stupidity; your stupidity is still, as always, worthy of being called out. It's an unfortunate consequence of the way society works that if we systematically try to root out certain behaviors, there can be side-effects of that system which would be worse than having those behaviors persist.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby redwards » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:09 pm UTC

Blubb3r3ng3l wrote:I don't see what is arguing with itself here. I don't think refusal of medical help is a religious thing in all cases, but this case appears to be. I don't think anything can happen to the parents, I don't think it's right for that to be the case, but I can't justify forcing people to accept treatment, because there will always be the exception that proves the rule.

Like I said, I ride the fence on this one. What exactly were you trying to prove by throwing these two quotes of mine together?


Forcing someone to accept treatment is different than refusing to seek treatment for an 11 year old too young to know the difference. This is child abuse due to negligence, and is a crime in Wisconsin, where this occurred, unless the negligence is seeking medical treatment due to religion. So we're very specifically talking about religion in terms of this case.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby LilPixie » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:37 pm UTC

redwards wrote:
Blubb3r3ng3l wrote:I don't see what is arguing with itself here. I don't think refusal of medical help is a religious thing in all cases, but this case appears to be. I don't think anything can happen to the parents, I don't think it's right for that to be the case, but I can't justify forcing people to accept treatment, because there will always be the exception that proves the rule.

Like I said, I ride the fence on this one. What exactly were you trying to prove by throwing these two quotes of mine together?


Forcing someone to accept treatment is different than refusing to seek treatment for an 11 year old too young to know the difference. This is child abuse due to negligence, and is a crime in Wisconsin, where this occurred, unless the negligence is seeking medical treatment due to religion. So we're very specifically talking about religion in terms of this case.

Does anyone know what became of the case?
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby redwards » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:51 pm UTC

LilPixie wrote:
redwards wrote:
Blubb3r3ng3l wrote:I don't see what is arguing with itself here. I don't think refusal of medical help is a religious thing in all cases, but this case appears to be. I don't think anything can happen to the parents, I don't think it's right for that to be the case, but I can't justify forcing people to accept treatment, because there will always be the exception that proves the rule.

Like I said, I ride the fence on this one. What exactly were you trying to prove by throwing these two quotes of mine together?


Forcing someone to accept treatment is different than refusing to seek treatment for an 11 year old too young to know the difference. This is child abuse due to negligence, and is a crime in Wisconsin, where this occurred, unless the negligence is seeking medical treatment due to religion. So we're very specifically talking about religion in terms of this case.

Does anyone know what became of the case?


The DA hasn't filed charges yet, but I suppose he could still try, though. I looked up the Wisconsin law, though, and there's a pretty clear exception for religious motivation.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Blubb3r3ng3l » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:58 am UTC

Silas wrote:(Image I'm saying this in a carefully non-combative tone)

What fence are you sitting on, exactly? I perceive three questions about the situation at hand, any or all of which you might be talking about:

(1) Did the girl's parents make the right decision, not to take their daughter to the doctor when the realized she was sick. (all right, all right, I have a hard time imagining that you or anyone else on these fora entertain serious doubts)
you hit it on the head

(2) Should Child Protective Services (or some other duly appointed agency) remove the family's other children from their parents' care over this?
No history of abuse, but a child died under their care. Refusal to medical help is, as I understand it, something you can do. I think they should be severely looked at as parents, but it's hard for me to justify either situation. Taking parents away from what could very well be very loving parents is painful for me, but keeping a child in the care of people who are capable of watching their child die and (in my opinion) sit idly by doesn't seem very good to me either. This is a lesser of two evils kind of thing here, and I don't know which I would argue for if this were my sister/cousin/friend.

(3) If the girl were still alive, and her parents were stubbornly refusing to let doctors near her, should CPS (or someone else) be able to force them to admit doctors?
In the case of a minor, I think so... I think the option to avoid treatment is an ethically terrible option, but still an option.
(3a) Supposing they were able, should they have done so in this case?
I can't completely answer this... it's terrible what happened, but as I understand it, and judging by the fact they currently still have their children, it was an option.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Not an Evil Robot » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:41 am UTC

A friend of mine sent me this article, and since its related I'll post it here.

Im confused as to why people wouldn't take their kids to doctors...

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby 22/7 » Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:01 am UTC

Try reading the article then. Or this thread.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby The Reaper » Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:28 pm UTC

They still believe their child can be resurrected? what the hell kind of christians are they? last I heard, only god can do that, and only on judgement day, unless you're family to him.

Then again, the age old idiom of "the gods help those who help themselves" doesn't apply to those people. They need their kids taken away. They probably already think the government is the devil, so its not going to damn the government any farther. :)

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby 22/7 » Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:44 pm UTC

Aren't we forgetting Lazarus?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby benjhuey » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:07 am UTC

Lazarus was with the "in" crowd.
多么现在棕色母牛?

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby iop » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:28 pm UTC

Silas wrote:(3) If the girl were still alive, and her parents were stubbornly refusing to let doctors near her, should CPS (or someone else) be able to force them to admit doctors?
(3a) Supposing they were able, should they have done so in this case?

That's a difficult question. I would like to say: Yes, the government is of course obliged to protect the life of the child against the parents' dangerous actions. However, this means that there would need to be a list of government-approved treatments for life-threatening diseases, and I wouldn't want that either.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Aperfectring » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:49 am UTC

schmiggen wrote:Sortof@Aperfectring:
I hate it when people assume that "I have the (legal) right to do X" or even "I should have the right to do X" is the same as "Nobody should be able to judge me for doing X."

Freedom of religion works to avoid theocracy and maybe other forms of tyranny. It does not equate all religions or beliefs, nor their consequences. If you make a stupid decision, it doesn't matter what led you to your stupidity; your stupidity is still, as always, worthy of being called out. It's an unfortunate consequence of the way society works that if we systematically try to root out certain behaviors, there can be side-effects of that system which would be worse than having those behaviors persist.
I STRONGLY advocate judging these parents harshly. What they did is, in my opinion, very stupid, and downright cruel. However, they still have the right to do it, just like I have the right to hate them for doing it.

The issue is not freedom of religion, it is that the state (the US) cannot establish a religion. If parents are forced to submit their children to medical treatment, even if their religion forbids it, this can easily be interpreted as the government prohibiting their religious beliefs.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby The Reaper » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:34 am UTC

Aperfectring wrote:The issue is not freedom of religion, it is that the state (the US) cannot establish a religion. If parents are forced to submit their children to medical treatment, even if their religion forbids it, this can easily be interpreted as the government prohibiting their religious beliefs.

Their religion doesn't prohibit seeing doctors. Many christian saints were doctors. The only thing stopping them from seeing a doctor is their own stupidity and inability to take care of their own offspring.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby audioMIME » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:28 pm UTC

Until a child comes of age, I believe it is the parents' responsibility to do everything in their power to protect him or her if he or she seems in any danger regardless of their religious doctrine; faith cannot be allowed to trump evidence of mortal danger. Here, the parents clearly fucked up.
In this scenario, the parents seemed to believe the best method of protection was prayer. I repeat, almighty fuckups
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On a slightly brighter note, parents like this strengthen the gene pool

P.S. John Paul II, the last pope, was given fist-rate medical care on his deathbed.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Aperfectring » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:13 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:
Aperfectring wrote:The issue is not freedom of religion, it is that the state (the US) cannot establish a religion. If parents are forced to submit their children to medical treatment, even if their religion forbids it, this can easily be interpreted as the government prohibiting their religious beliefs.

Their religion doesn't prohibit seeing doctors. Many christian saints were doctors. The only thing stopping them from seeing a doctor is their own stupidity and inability to take care of their own offspring.

Then I guess Jehova's Witnesses, members of christianity, cannot ever refuse to get blood transfusions which save their lives. There are MANY sects of christianity, which believe a wide variety of things. A quick search on google brings up Christian Scientists, who, based on their religion, refuse all medical treatment and rely on "faith healing".
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby AvalonXQ » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:41 pm UTC

The Reaper wrote:They still believe their child can be resurrected? what the hell kind of christians are they? last I heard, only god can do that, and only on judgement day, unless you're family to him.

Wrong. Resurrection happened several times during and AFTER the time of Jesus, according to the New Testament. Elijah and Paul both raised people from the dead (by the power of the Elohim, of course).

I say take these children from their parents. We have rules that say you have to take care of your children, and we don't care WHY you don't -- whether you hate them or you were too sick or you couldn't afford to or you didn't understand that what you were doing was bad for them. If you don't take care of your children, we take them away. I see no reason for a religious exception to this rule. The First Amendment doesn't require one (if a rule is unrelated to religion, it's not unconsitutional just because it has an adverse effect on specific religions). Common sense doesn't require one. Personal freedom doesn't require one (there are MANY things you can do to yourself that you can't do to your kids). Take the kids away, please.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby 22/7 » Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:30 am UTC

I'm going to say this one more time, because people are having trouble taking the words on the screen and actually learning from them.

There is NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING having to do with religion in the reason why this family should not and will not have their children removed. It's not a "freedom of religion" issue, freedom of religion has NOTHING to do with this story. Stop bringing it up. They are NOT protected because of their religion, they have the same right to deny themselves or their children medical assistance as anyone else.

Stop the insanity. Read.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby AvalonXQ » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:01 pm UTC

Right, exactly, nothing to do with religion at all. Um, wait! Except...

redwards wrote:Forcing someone to accept treatment is different than refusing to seek treatment for an 11 year old too young to know the difference. This is child abuse due to negligence, and is a crime in Wisconsin, where this occurred, unless the negligence is seeking medical treatment due to religion. So we're very specifically talking about religion in terms of this case.


Fail.
I DID read. Clearly YOU didn't.

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby The Reaper » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:15 pm UTC

AvalonXQ wrote:
The Reaper wrote:They still believe their child can be resurrected? what the hell kind of christians are they? last I heard, only god can do that, and only on judgement day, unless you're family to him.

Wrong. Resurrection happened several times during and AFTER the time of Jesus, according to the New Testament. Elijah and Paul both raised people from the dead (by the power of the Elohim, of course).

Pssst. They've been dead for how long now? o.O

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby 22/7 » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:55 pm UTC

AvalonXQ wrote:Right, exactly, nothing to do with religion at all. Um, wait! Except...

redwards wrote:Forcing someone to accept treatment is different than refusing to seek treatment for an 11 year old too young to know the difference. This is child abuse due to negligence, and is a crime in Wisconsin, where this occurred, unless the negligence is seeking medical treatment due to religion. So we're very specifically talking about religion in terms of this case.


Fail.
I DID read. Clearly YOU didn't.

FREEDOM! Freedom of religion! It's not an issue! Freedom of religion is not an issue! Freedom of religion is not an issue!

You're right though, I did miss redwards's post about this, specifically, mostly because the vast majority of the posts in this thread have been something along the line of "blah blah blah ... religion sucks ... freedom of religion ... blah blah blah".
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Aperfectring » Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:59 pm UTC

The main reason "freedom of religion" has been so beaten to death in this thread is because it is the sole reason (and it actually is a fairly good one in my opinion), that these fucking parents aren't losing their other kids and going to rot in prison. It is HORRIBLE what they put their daughter through here, and I would never wish such a fate on ANY human being. However, I do agree (only marginally so in such a case) with their right to do what they did. It is the bad edge of my double-edged sword of holding the First Amendment to the US Constitution as extremely important.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby 22/7 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:29 am UTC

NO IT'S NOT! FREEDOM OF RELIGION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS STORY!

Religion does, freedom of it does not.
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Aperfectring » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:41 am UTC

How does freedom of religion have NOTHING to do with WHY the parents are not being prosecuted?
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby 22/7 » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:17 am UTC

Do you know what freedom of religion is?
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:28 am UTC

The specific part that relates here would be that the government can neither prevent nor punish you for practicing your religious beliefs.
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Re: Girl dies as parents pray for healing of treatable illness.

Postby Aperfectring » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:50 am UTC

Reminder: "freedom of religion" is the freedom to practice your religion (or lack thereof), AS YOU BELIEVE IT, without fear of prosecution. This mean that if everything, with regards to healthcare, except faith healing is against your beliefs, you cannot be prosecuted for that belief. That is the case with this specific instance. "Freedom of religion" is the core reason why the Wisconsin law provides the exception noted by redwards previously in this thread. It is also, therefore, the core reason why these parents are not being prosecuted. Because of this, it is justified to argue about the extent we provide "freedom of religion".

Some argue that too much freedom is given. I argue that we are pretty close to the right level in the US. I generally find cases on both sides (for more freedom, and for less freedom) in about equal frequency, so I personally feel that we have a good compromise going for the time being. Others may feel differently, and that is where the debate in this thread has been.

As far as I can tell, most (if not all) people in this thread disagree with the actions these parents took. However, I argue that it is their right, under the laws that govern them, to make that choice, and that I agree with that right. I feel they made the worst possible choice here, but it was not my decision to make, it was theirs. I also argue that it is everyone's right to hate the parents for their decision, and that it is also everyone's right to express that hatred, so long as doing so does not infringe on another's rights.
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