Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Ian Ex Machina
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:07 pm UTC
Location: Around Cambridge (UK)
Contact:

Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Ian Ex Machina » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:04 pm UTC

The story is that a registrar; Lillian Ladele won a case so that she does not have to perform civil partnerships, and that after reading the previous articles about her, that she feared that the council would harass her and she would be vilified.

BBC link to pre-decision information: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7413298.stm
BBC link to court decision: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7499248.stm

I personally think, that if her job requires her to perform civil ceremonies then she should, as it is her job.

Thoughts?
Image

User avatar
protocoach
Posts: 251
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:44 am UTC
Location: Omaha, NE
Contact:

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby protocoach » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:14 pm UTC

When were civil partnerships legalized in England?
If I were a Viking god, I don't think I would fall for that.
But if I were a Viking, that's exactly what I would do.

How can you study geometry and not believe in a God?
A God of perfect points and planes,
Surrounded by arch-angels and right angles

User avatar
Moo
Oh man! I'm going to be so rebellious! I'm gonna...
Posts: 6441
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:15 pm UTC
Location: Beyond the goblin city
Contact:

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Moo » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:20 pm UTC

People with strongly held principles are likely to value them above their job. It is, after all, just a job. I would not perform a task at work that clashed with my principles.

I am not defending hers but I think when we start forcing people to do things against their conscience we are on a sad slope.

Yes, yes, you can come up with ridiculous examples of "principles" that no-one would consider justified, and ask should these be upheld; I find that kind of reasoning tedious. However if my work suddenly asked me to design a website for people who publish erotic photos of just-overage models made to look like children, for example, you can damnwell bet I'm going to excercise my freedom of choice just rather than just do it because someone says "but it's your job".

Just because you don't agree with her principles doesn't mean she is not allowed to have them.
Proverbs 9:7-8 wrote:Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get an insult in return. Anyone who corrects the wicked will get hurt. So don't bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you.
Hawknc wrote:FFT: I didn't realise Proverbs 9:7-8 was the first recorded instance of "haters gonna hate"

User avatar
protocoach
Posts: 251
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:44 am UTC
Location: Omaha, NE
Contact:

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby protocoach » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:26 pm UTC

Moo wrote:People with strongly held principles are likely to value them above their job. It is, after all, just a job. I would not perform a task at work that clashed with my principles.

I am not defending hers but I think when we start forcing people to do things against their conscience we are on a sad slope.

Yes, yes, you can come up with ridiculous examples of "principles" that no-one would consider justified, and ask should these be upheld; I find that kind of reasoning tedious. However if my work suddenly asked me to design a website for people who publish erotic photos of just-overage models made to look like children, for example, you can damnwell bet I'm going to excercise my freedom of choice just rather than just do it because someone says "but it's your job".

Just because you don't agree with her principles doesn't mean she is not allowed to have them.

Would you protest then when you lost your job? That's my issue with these kind of cases. I don't object to letting your morals overrule your work, but you should not expect to do that and remain working at that job. If you refuse to do the work you're being paid to do, whether it's because you object to it morally or you just don't feel like it, that's your call. Don't complain when you get fired, though. That's their call.
If I were a Viking god, I don't think I would fall for that.
But if I were a Viking, that's exactly what I would do.

How can you study geometry and not believe in a God?
A God of perfect points and planes,
Surrounded by arch-angels and right angles

User avatar
Moo
Oh man! I'm going to be so rebellious! I'm gonna...
Posts: 6441
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:15 pm UTC
Location: Beyond the goblin city
Contact:

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Moo » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:41 pm UTC

Well this is where that slippery slope comes in but when the morals are held by a large number of people for what is percieved as a valid reason (and let us say accepted, recognized, mainstream religions are valid reasons) then yes - I think I would object to being fired yes. Would you tell a woman to not expect to get fired if she refused to sleep with her boss? No sex isn't part of her job but then again no-one told the woman that doing something she objected to morally would be part of her job either when she took it.
Proverbs 9:7-8 wrote:Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get an insult in return. Anyone who corrects the wicked will get hurt. So don't bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you.
Hawknc wrote:FFT: I didn't realise Proverbs 9:7-8 was the first recorded instance of "haters gonna hate"

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Belial » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:45 pm UTC

If you're a registrar, your job is to administrate documents and ceremonies within the bounds of the law. If you're a pharmacist, your job is to distribute all prescribed drugs. I can't think of a (US Legal) job where "have sex with your boss" would ever conceivably come up on the job description.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Ian Ex Machina
Posts: 575
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:07 pm UTC
Location: Around Cambridge (UK)
Contact:

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Ian Ex Machina » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:48 pm UTC

protocoach wrote:Would you protest then when you lost your job? That's my issue with these kind of cases. I don't object to letting your morals overrule your work, but you should not expect to do that and remain working at that job. If you refuse to do the work you're being paid to do, whether it's because you object to it morally or you just don't feel like it, that's your call. Don't complain when you get fired, though. That's their call.

^ this.

Also the law for same sex ceremonies came in 21st December 2005 BBC says.

So it is inherent in the job, and hardly a suprise as its been there for 3 years (see link above) that there will be these ceremonies. If her principles are that strong then she should have quit, as she can't fulfill her job requirements, and as protocoach says, don't complain if fired.
Image

User avatar
Moo
Oh man! I'm going to be so rebellious! I'm gonna...
Posts: 6441
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:15 pm UTC
Location: Beyond the goblin city
Contact:

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Moo » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:57 pm UTC

OK that does change everything for me.

1. take job --> rules get changed --> suddenly have to do something you find objectionable
2. rules change --> rules become common practice --> take job knowing the rules

In the first case I would still defend someone's right to not be forced to do something they don't agree with; in the second I'm afraid I don't think they have much of a case.
Proverbs 9:7-8 wrote:Anyone who rebukes a mocker will get an insult in return. Anyone who corrects the wicked will get hurt. So don't bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you.
Hawknc wrote:FFT: I didn't realise Proverbs 9:7-8 was the first recorded instance of "haters gonna hate"

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Belial » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:05 pm UTC

Even if the rules change on you, you took that job knowing that could well happen. If you take a registrar job, thinking to yourself "Oh, those silly gays will never get the right to marry, so it'll never be an issue"....well, you bet against progress and you lost. World's tiniest violin.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Indon » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:15 pm UTC

Moo wrote:Just because you don't agree with her principles doesn't mean she is not allowed to have them.


Your example is a fine one, but it involves private business. As a private businessperson, you're free to make such decisions within reason.

However, a public servant does not have that freedom. As a military member, if I object to going to a war and refuse orders as a result, I get sent to prison. Period. Now, the military can make allowances for such individuals - conscientious objectors, they're called. But even they don't have the right to refuse orders, the military just makes an effort to try to be nice. Similarly, if my religion involves a ritual or prayer that interferes with the mission, I can, legally, be told to take my religion and stuff it.

The government indeed should not have the right (outside of extreme situations) to demand what private workers do. But this person is a public worker. The government pays them, the government should have damn well whatever right they please to tell them what to do.

Of course, this is all assuming that a 'registrar' who works for a 'local authority' is in fact a civil servant. My spotty knowledge of the UK may be my downfall if I'm wrong.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:45 pm UTC

Even that's not really a fair comparison. Military and law enforcement are different from other government jobs, the standards of conduct are higher.

Of course in the end all that means to me is that i don't think she deserves to go to jail. I won't say she deserves to get fired, but i won't exactly cry about it either.

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Indon » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:18 pm UTC

Well, yeah, going to jail would be a little draconian for a low-level public servant refusing to do their job.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image

Rysto
Posts: 1460
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:07 am UTC

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Rysto » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:31 pm UTC

If you're going to be an agent of the government, you have to conform to the rules by which the government is bound. Rulings like this one allow for de facto denial of rights, which is utterly unacceptable.

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26531
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:54 am UTC

Gunfingers wrote:Of course in the end all that means to me is that i don't think she deserves to go to jail. I won't say she deserves to get fired, but i won't exactly cry about it either.


She won't marry the gays... and she should be fired, as she's now incapable of doing her job. It's no different than refusing to marry a black woman and a white man, or refusing to marry a Protestant and a Catholic, or an athiest and a Muslim. Public Servants can have all the principles they want, so long as those principles don't interfere with the law.

So, yes, she deserves to be fired.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Gunfingers » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:51 am UTC

Maybe i'm just a really forgiving boss, but i usually try to work with my people when they're not comfortable with something instead of just firing them. Got an employee who doesn't like working with customers? Okay, you're working in the back. There was a girl at the pizza place i used to work at who couldn't bear to touch anchovies. Making anchovie pizzas was part of her job, but for some reason we didn't fire her over it. We just let someone else take the anchovie pizzas. It's not really a problem until it becomes a problem. If the entire registrar office refused to marry homosexuals, there's a problem. One chick who's not comfortable with it? Whatever, she can do building permits (or whatever the hell registrars do all day).

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Belial » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:58 am UTC

Sure thing. What if she's the only registrar on duty? Or what if another homophobe gets hired? Or two?

"Sorry, we hired that one, but you're disqualified, we've reached our homophobe quota..."
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
Freakish
Posts: 909
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:47 am UTC
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Freakish » Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:47 am UTC

Belial wrote:Sure thing. What if she's the only registrar on duty? Or what if another homophobe gets hired? Or two?

"Sorry, we hired that one, but you're disqualified, we've reached our homophobe quota..."


Then Homophobes become a minority.
Freakish Inc. We completely understand the public’s concern about futuristic robots feeding on the human population

Marquee Moon
Posts: 164
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:13 am UTC

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Marquee Moon » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:01 am UTC

Gunfingers wrote:Maybe i'm just a really forgiving boss, but i usually try to work with my people when they're not comfortable with something instead of just firing them. Got an employee who doesn't like working with customers? Okay, you're working in the back. There was a girl at the pizza place i used to work at who couldn't bear to touch anchovies. Making anchovie pizzas was part of her job, but for some reason we didn't fire her over it. We just let someone else take the anchovie pizzas. It's not really a problem until it becomes a problem. If the entire registrar office refused to marry homosexuals, there's a problem. One chick who's not comfortable with it? Whatever, she can do building permits (or whatever the hell registrars do all day).


But this is a moral objection. The pizza place owner would be within his legal right to fire the girl who doesn't like anchovies. You can't take someone to court for being a meanie bobenie. Though, things are a bit different in the registrar's case because her employer is the government, which is us kind of. The government should act in line with our legal and moral standards. I'm not sure how you'd deal with that legally though.

Indon wrote:As a military member, if I object to going to a war and refuse orders as a result, I get sent to prison. Period.


Really? So you can't just quit the military? That seems pretty... harsh. Do private employers have the power to send employees to prison (or have an agreement like that set up in a contract)?

User avatar
TheStranger
Posts: 896
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:39 pm UTC
Location: The Void which Binds

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby TheStranger » Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:34 pm UTC

Marquee Moon wrote:
Indon wrote:As a military member, if I object to going to a war and refuse orders as a result, I get sent to prison. Period.


Really? So you can't just quit the military? That seems pretty... harsh. Do private employers have the power to send employees to prison (or have an agreement like that set up in a contract)?


When you sign up for the military you enlist for a number of years, during which it is difficult to just quit. Refusing to follow a legal order car result in being arrested/jailed as well as a dishonorable discharge.

Remember that the military has it's own internal justice and prison system where this takes place (under military law)

At one time you could be shot for disobeying an order (depending on the circumstances) but I'm not sure if this is still the case.
"To bow before the pressure of the ignorant is weakness."
Azalin Rex, Wizard-King of Darkon

User avatar
Indon
Posts: 4433
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:21 pm UTC
Location: Alabama :(
Contact:

Re: Registrar wins same-sex tribunal.

Postby Indon » Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:43 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:Maybe i'm just a really forgiving boss, but i usually try to work with my people when they're not comfortable with something instead of just firing them. Got an employee who doesn't like working with customers? Okay, you're working in the back. There was a girl at the pizza place i used to work at who couldn't bear to touch anchovies. Making anchovie pizzas was part of her job, but for some reason we didn't fire her over it. We just let someone else take the anchovie pizzas. It's not really a problem until it becomes a problem. If the entire registrar office refused to marry homosexuals, there's a problem. One chick who's not comfortable with it? Whatever, she can do building permits (or whatever the hell registrars do all day).


Then fire the person for that job and see if there's another job they can take (or just transfer them if possible), like a quality assurance inspector or something - that seems to be the govt. equivalent of 'you're working in the back' to me.

One way or another, the person shouldn't be a registrar if they can't do a registrar job.

Marquee Moon wrote:Do private employers have the power to send employees to prison (or have an agreement like that set up in a contract)?


Thankfully, I don't think any have tried yet.

TheStranger wrote:At one time you could be shot for disobeying an order (depending on the circumstances) but I'm not sure if this is still the case.


The death penalty (during wartime) for violation of certain military laws is still in the books, but I don't think it's been enforced in decades, at the least.
So, I like talking. So if you want to talk about something with me, feel free to send me a PM.

My blog, now rarely updated.

Image


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 18 guests