Caught out on Facebook - Another One

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby oxoiron » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:24 pm UTC

I'm awarding you one (1) Internet for excellent use of the word 'zoomtard'.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby GreaterSteven » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:57 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I think you should assume that anything anyone can access, will get accessed, and will cause you problems. I've changed my cell phone answering machine when applying for jobs, so it doesn't shout "WAAAA THE ZOMBIES ARE EATING MY FLESH LEAVE A MESSAGE AND HEEEEEEELP!" but instead "Hi, you've reached the voice mail box of blahblahblahblah, please leave a message". I've removed pictures from facebook that I didn't want circulating.

Theres a world of difference between work 'monitoring your personal life' a la cameras in your home, and work making sure the employees they pay aren't buffoons who are actively trying to deceive the employers. This was not a case of spying on an employee, or discriminating against an employee because of life decisions.

I know it pains many people here to consider, but there is a professional world that has a set of standards. Those standards may be ridiculous, and it may be cool to rile against them, but if you want to maintain a job or a position within that framework, you've got to abide by the standards. That means instead of coming to work with a punk ass mohawk and smelling of whiskey, you wear a Homer Simpson tie and drink from a mug that says "Fuel for Smarts"

Shame on this idiot for A) posting his personal life along side with his professional, B) lying to his employer with a shallow and easily detectable lie and C) being a zoomtard and thinking he could get away with such idiocy


I'm going to assume, for the sake of argument, that you aren't a buffoon who is actively trying to deceive his employers. I'm also going to assume that you are a decent worker, maybe even a great worker. So WHY do you have to change your answering machine? Why should you have to censor your own facebook?

"...instead of coming to work with a punk ass mohawk..." -- It is implicit that you do not allow your private life to interfere with your work life, and that you are dressed and act appropriately when working. So why does work get to start interfering with your private life, and force you to act differently there than you normally would?

Just because a guy goes out on Saturday night and gets wasted, and wakes up on Sunday with a hangover and spends the day in bed...he should be crossed off as a candidate for a position? What if he NEVER LETS HIS OUTSIDE LIFE affect work? Why should my wearing a funny hat on facebook automatically imply that I would wear a funny hat at work and am thus not an appropriate candidate for the work?

All I'm saying is, as long as there is no reason for clients to call your personal line, you shouldn't have to change the answering machine for your own personal line. As long as you keep it out of work, anything should go. As I said, this guy's a moron because he added his boss on facebook and then said something he didn't want his boss to hear on facebook. But if I don't add my boss on facebook, it should be fair game, because it has nothing to do with work and very little carries into my work life.

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:14 pm UTC

I totally agree with you in principal, but I'm just not convinced that's how the real world works. While interviewing for a job, you put your best foot forward, and regardless of what you may think that means, chances are you would rather an potential employer call your cellphone with a question about your application or even to offer you the position, and hears "Hello, this is so and so, please leave a message and I'll call you back as soon as possible" over "HOLY FUCKING SHIT THE RAPTORS AARRGH GODDAMN THE RAPTORS!!!"

I work in a very casual environment and am on fairly good terms with my boss, I can tell her I stupidly fell off my bike this weekend and I was actually sober this time. I joke around with my coworkers and consider them mostly good and fun people. But I would never under any circumstances call them smashed, or show them photos of how fucking tossed I got at that concert. It's a matter of professionalism, and the dude in question from the OP's reference was acting highly unprofessional, and in a venue that was accessible to his work life. I'm not critiquing the dude for getting drunk, or even for taking a sick day for being hung over. But if you are going to lie to your employer about that, make sure it's not A) habitual enough that your employer is going to second guess your word, or B) not in a public space that will red handedly (not a word) incriminate you.

To some extent, it is about personal censorship. Like it or not, the real world doesn't want to see you dressed as a greasy spartan for some sexy party. The real world isn't interested in how cool your cosplay, trebuchet building, drunken arting self is. Knowing how to make yourself presentable enough in the professional workspace is a big part of succeeding in it I'd say. In my, you know, 2 years of experience post college in a semi-professional workspace.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Belial » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:20 pm UTC

I feel like there was a comic about this.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Azrael » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:26 pm UTC

I'm pretty sure it ended in FUCK. THAT. SHIT.



Although, there is a HUGE amount of wisdom in knowing your environment. If you want to be employed by the type of place that's going to care about calling in drunk, then don't get caught calling in drunk. Sure, the world would be a *much* better place if they didn't care ... but they do.

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby 22/7 » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:47 pm UTC

GreaterSteven wrote:I'm going to assume, for the sake of argument, that you aren't a buffoon who is actively trying to deceive his employers. I'm also going to assume that you are a decent worker, maybe even a great worker. So WHY do you have to change your answering machine? Why should you have to censor your own facebook?
Pay attention to what he actually wrote. He changed his answering machine when interviewing for jobs. If you have a goofy voicemail message, this makes sense. I did the exact same thing and all mine said was "This is (last name), leave me a message," because that's how most of my friends refer to me. And again, if you're smart and don't friend your boss, you don't have any need to censor your Facebook. That said, I and many others have removed tags (indicating that we are in a picture) from pictures that we felt wouldn't reflect well to a possible employer. Again, this makes sense for practical purposes.
GreaterSeven wrote:"...instead of coming to work with a punk ass mohawk..." -- It is implicit that you do not allow your private life to interfere with your work life, and that you are dressed and act appropriately when working. So why does work get to start interfering with your private life, and force you to act differently there than you normally would?
It's not a matter of work forcing you to act differently during your personal life, it's a matter of work paying you to be able to function while you're at work and you holding up your end of that agreement. If you can't do that, you can't expect not to get fired. Does that mean you can't stay up until 6am gaming and sleep till 2pm like you did in college? Maybe. But it's part of the agreement. If you disagree with what I've just said, can you explain to me why?
GreaterSeven wrote:Just because a guy goes out on Saturday night and gets wasted, and wakes up on Sunday with a hangover and spends the day in bed...he should be crossed off as a candidate for a position? What if he NEVER LETS HIS OUTSIDE LIFE affect work? Why should my wearing a funny hat on facebook automatically imply that I would wear a funny hat at work and am thus not an appropriate candidate for the work?
How is this anything other than a non-sequitur? If the guy had gone out on Saturday, we'd never have heard about it. The fact of the matter is, he went out on a night where he had to be up and working the next morning and couldn't, which makes it a problem for the company he works for.
GreaterSeven wrote:All I'm saying is, as long as there is no reason for clients to call your personal line, you shouldn't have to change the answering machine for your own personal line. As long as you keep it out of work, anything should go. As I said, this guy's a moron because he added his boss on facebook and then said something he didn't want his boss to hear on facebook. But if I don't add my boss on facebook, it should be fair game, because it has nothing to do with work and very little carries into my work life.
You're saying that you agree this guy was an idiot and that you're arguing a general position, but I think the breakdown here comes because you're arguing the general case against statements that are being made about this specific instance and not catching the important parts of the general case that people are arguing.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Rysto » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:48 pm UTC

Belial wrote:I feel like there was a comic about this.

Are you serious? You honestly believe that not getting too hungover to work is equivalent to censoring oneself online for fear that one's current or future employer might object?

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Azrael » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:00 pm UTC

Aren't they both about censoring your internet information to prevent an employer from objecting?

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby 22/7 » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:07 pm UTC

Rysto wrote:
Belial wrote:I feel like there was a comic about this.
Are you serious? You honestly believe that not getting too hungover to work is equivalent to censoring oneself online for fear that one's current or future employer might object?
How do you completely drop the only reason why this happened in the first place, why this story made any kind of media whatsoever, and why we're talking about it to make that point?

Also, which comic was it? For some reason I'm not feeling like this one was particularly applicable as it's really referring to censoring one's political views and things like that, but it's been awhile since I've actually read through it.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Rysto » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:38 pm UTC


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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby 22/7 » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:52 pm UTC

That's the one, thanks, didn't remember how far back it was or what it was titled. Yeah, it's not particularly relevant to the situation described by the article, but is for the more general discussion I believe Greater is trying to have. It's also, as xkcd is wont to be, fairly idealistic about life in general. Which is fine, but not particularly helpful if we're actually discussing real life, working a job, the internet, personal and professional lives, etc.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby GreaterSteven » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:56 pm UTC

All bold formatting is added by me.

To some extent, it is about personal censorship. Like it or not, the real world doesn't want to see you dressed as a greasy spartan for some sexy party. The real world isn't interested in how cool your cosplay, trebuchet building, drunken arting self is. Knowing how to make yourself presentable enough in the professional workspace is a big part of succeeding in it I'd say. In my, you know, 2 years of experience post college in a semi-professional workspace.


How is dressing as a greasy spartan for some sexy party professional workspace? And yet with the facebook monitoring, they look at that and use it to pass judgement.

Pay attention to what he actually wrote. He changed his answering machine when interviewing for jobs. If you have a goofy voicemail message, this makes sense. I did the exact same thing and all mine said was "This is (last name), leave me a message," because that's how most of my friends refer to me. And again, if you're smart and don't friend your boss, you don't have any need to censor your Facebook. That said, I and many others have removed tags (indicating that we are in a picture) from pictures that we felt wouldn't reflect well to a possible employer. Again, this makes sense for practical purposes.


That's not true. They search for your facebook without being added. If you added them, I perfectly agree you have earned the right to be screwed over by whatever is on there. I'm arguing that if you don't add them, you shouldn't. But they look regardless of whether you add them or not.

It's not a matter of work forcing you to act differently during your personal life, it's a matter of work paying you to be able to function while you're at work and you holding up your end of that agreement. If you can't do that, you can't expect not to get fired. Does that mean you can't stay up until 6am gaming and sleep till 2pm like you did in college? Maybe. But it's part of the agreement. If you disagree with what I've just said, can you explain to me why?


How is this anything other than a non-sequitur? If the guy had gone out on Saturday, we'd never have heard about it. The fact of the matter is, he went out on a night where he had to be up and working the next morning and couldn't, which makes it a problem for the company he works for.


Ok, but if I get drunk on Saturday night and they read about it on my facebook (while checking me out for possible employment) they have now used that, whether consciously or not, as a factor in their judgement of me for possible employment. Even if I'm perfectly functioning on Monday morning. Thus, it has no effect on your ability to do your job but they are using it to judge you anyway.

You're saying that you agree this guy was an idiot and that you're arguing a general position, but I think the breakdown here comes because you're arguing the general case against statements that are being made about this specific instance and not catching the important parts of the general case that people are arguing.


Elaborate, here. I am arguing that employers are looking at facebook (without even being added) and using it as a way to judge possible employees/employees, even if the things on facebook have little or no effect on their ability to work (come the time to work). I should be allowed to fuck off when I'm not working as long as it doesn't affect my working. But it's rapidly approaching the point where this isn't the case.

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Intercept » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:46 pm UTC

You realize you can set it to where people can't see your profile without being added right?
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby GreaterSteven » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:49 pm UTC

Intercept wrote:You realize you can set it to where people can't see your profile without being added right?


Yes, I do realize this.

I'm saying I shouldn't have to. They shouldn't be checking it out. Separate work from private life.

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Intercept » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:01 am UTC

GreaterSteven wrote:
Intercept wrote:You realize you can set it to where people can't see your profile without being added right?


Yes, I do realize this.

I'm saying I shouldn't have to. They shouldn't be checking it out. Separate work from private life.


What about people who make their profile very neat and appealing in hopes of impressing potential employers? It's not private if you put it in a public forum. Why is it ok for everyone else to see it but not someone who actually has a use for the information?
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby lorenith » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:12 am UTC

GreaterSteven wrote:
Yes, I do realize this.

I'm saying I shouldn't have to. They shouldn't be checking it out. Separate work from private life.


So you think people shouldn't be looking at stuff that is in a public area?

Well ok then I guess I'll go have sex in the park then, if someone from my work place happens to see me and fire me for it they're evil bad people that are invading my privacey!

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby GreaterSteven » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:29 am UTC

lorenith wrote:So you think people shouldn't be looking at stuff that is in a public area?

Well ok then I guess I'll go have sex in the park then, if someone from my work place happens to see me and fire me for it they're evil bad people that are invading my privacey!


That would be illegal, though.

If you were doing something legal in public and your employer saw you, I don't think they should fire you because you aren't doing it in the work place, you're doing it outside of the work place.

This may seem odd to the general populace. I also don't believe that colleges should kick you out if you "misrepresent" them off campus/outside of a situation relating to the college. (this is actually directly relevant, some Ivy League colleges are now enforcing regulations on their students' facebooks)

Again, though, when you do something illegal I fully expect legal actions to be taken and I believe it is alright for them to fire you based on the illegal actions.


What about people who make their profile very neat and appealing in hopes of impressing potential employers? It's not private if you put it in a public forum. Why is it ok for everyone else to see it but not someone who actually has a use for the information?


If the employer wants to check out a facebook, they can request an add. And I can choose whether or not to accept the request. Then they can check out my neat and appealing profile.

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Intercept » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:34 am UTC

I'm personally of the belief that if you apply for the job, anything you willingly put in public is fair game for employers to check out.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:41 am UTC

Some people choose to have their personal life exude a professional air.

Some people choose to have their personal be, well, personal. Most people use their facebook profile as a social tool, and that profile embodies their personality and lets someone get to know you in a way.

Most material on a facebook profile has NOTHING to do with how one conducts oneself in a professional environment.

I hate the idea of 'professionalism' as an all-encompassing way of life, honestly. From 'professional' facebook profiling, to the idea that someone with a tattoo on their face is less professional than someone else.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby GreaterSteven » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:42 am UTC

It just irritates me that I have to censor myself for my workplace outside of my workplace.

Some people choose to have their personal life exude a professional air.

Some people choose to have their personal be, well, personal. Most people use their facebook profile as a social tool, and that profile embodies their personality and lets someone get to know you in a way.

Most material on a facebook profile has NOTHING to do with how one conducts oneself in a professional environment.

I hate the idea of 'professionalism' as an all-encompassing way of life, honestly. From 'professional' facebook profiling, to the idea that someone with a tattoo on their face is less professional than someone else.


Amen.

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Intercept » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:50 am UTC

Nougatrocity wrote:Some people choose to have their personal life exude a professional air.

Some people choose to have their personal be, well, personal. Most people use their facebook profile as a social tool, and that profile embodies their personality and lets someone get to know you in a way.

Most material on a facebook profile has NOTHING to do with how one conducts oneself in a professional environment.

I hate the idea of 'professionalism' as an all-encompassing way of life, honestly. From 'professional' facebook profiling, to the idea that someone with a tattoo on their face is less professional than someone else.


Oh, I completely agree. I think the notion of professionalism is silly. However, it exists, and just because you think it is silly is no reason to avoid it.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby GreaterSteven » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:51 am UTC

Oh, I completely agree. I think the notion of professionalism is silly. However, it exists, and just because you think it is silly is no reason to avoid it.


If you don't like something, try and change it. That 'live with it' attitude doesn't accomplish anything.

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:20 am UTC

Except when what you want to do has a set of requirements that you follow.

This isn't a 'Don't be a sheep, think for yourself!' liberal rant, this is about abiding by basic laws that some aspects of society has put forth! If you want to get a job as a nursury school teacher, perhaps you SHOULD reconsider that tribal face tat, or taking down those pictures of you fight clubbing with your friends.

Basically, if someone is in a position to give you money in exchange for your services, you ought to consider the full ramifications of your actions and how they reflect on their decision to make that final deal with you. Just because I wouldn't object to a big cuddly viking with runes scrawled into his arms and bulging neck coddling and caring for my kids, doesn't mean I'd for a second think that he'd be a successful daycare attendant.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Intercept » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:22 am UTC

GreaterSteven wrote:
Oh, I completely agree. I think the notion of professionalism is silly. However, it exists, and just because you think it is silly is no reason to avoid it.


If you don't like something, try and change it. That 'live with it' attitude doesn't accomplish anything.


True, but this isn't an establishment. This is an individual thing. You can't change the opinion of every person in the hiring position.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby GreaterSteven » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:27 am UTC

True, but this isn't an establishment. This is an individual thing. You can't change the opinion of every person in the hiring position.



You can try and sway public opinion. I would think most people would agree to not having employers check their facebooks, it's just most people don't even know what's going on yet.

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Intercept » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:52 am UTC

Then most employers would just cite some other reason. Only a small group of people will actually be ethically swayed.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby GreaterSteven » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:54 am UTC

Intercept wrote:Then most employers would just cite some other reason. Only a small group of people will actually be ethically swayed.


I disagree with that. I think a lot of people would take the side of "stay out of my private life and my private life will stay out of you."

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Intercept » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:06 am UTC

GreaterSteven wrote:
Intercept wrote:Then most employers would just cite some other reason. Only a small group of people will actually be ethically swayed.


I disagree with that. I think a lot of people would take the side of "stay out of my private life and my private life will stay out of you."


Until they're in the position of power, and they're making a decision that will have a significant impact on their business or company.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Xeio » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:21 am UTC

GreaterSteven wrote:
True, but this isn't an establishment. This is an individual thing. You can't change the opinion of every person in the hiring position.
You can try and sway public opinion. I would think most people would agree to not having employers check their facebooks, it's just most people don't even know what's going on yet.
While it may be true you wouldn't like them to see it, you should be aware that they can (if you don't have a hidden profile, anyway). If you are an employer, would you not prefer to exhaust all available resources in order to make sure this candidate is not going to waste thousands of dollars in training, then quit (or need to be terminated)? I would agree that your personal life does not necessarily reflect on your professional life, but there are correlations.

In this particular case though, the employee obviously lied to his supervisor (and was a jerk about it, to boot), which is what caused the problem. If an employer discriminates against you for something entirely unrelated to work, THEN there is a problem (with the employer, I.E. you should quit).

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby 22/7 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:38 pm UTC

GreaterSteven wrote:Yes, I do realize this.

I'm saying I shouldn't have to. They shouldn't be checking it out. Separate work from private life.
One of the ways that you separate your work from your private life is by not letting the two overlap. When you put your personal life in a public space, you can't call "no fair" when someone at work comes across it.
GreaterSteven wrote:This may seem odd to the general populace. I also don't believe that colleges should kick you out if you "misrepresent" them off campus/outside of a situation relating to the college. (this is actually directly relevant, some Ivy League colleges are now enforcing regulations on their students' facebooks)
I couldn't disagree with you more here. I would maintain that a part of being a member of a university is being a representative of that university. But if you're interested in having that discussion, it'll need to happen elsewhere.
GreaterSteven wrote:If the employer wants to check out a facebook, they can request an add. And I can choose whether or not to accept the request. Then they can check out my neat and appealing profile.
Or they can just check out your facebook. It's really not all that much different than calling a former boss, etc. for a reference. Of course, if you want to control who your potential employer is talking to, you should probably only give them one or two names rather than your entire address book. Similarly, if you want to control what that potential employer can see on Facebook, you might want to set your profile to private.
Nougatrocity wrote:Some people choose to have their personal life exude a professional air.

Some people choose to have their personal be, well, personal. Most people use their facebook profile as a social tool, and that profile embodies their personality and lets someone get to know you in a way.

Most material on a facebook profile has NOTHING to do with how one conducts oneself in a professional environment.

I hate the idea of 'professionalism' as an all-encompassing way of life, honestly. From 'professional' facebook profiling, to the idea that someone with a tattoo on their face is less professional than someone else.
While I can appreciate what you're saying, I don't understand why you object to clicking the "private" box on your profile if you indeed want your personal life to stay "personal". If you're putting your life out into the public space, how are you keeping it personal? I mean, I don't care if you're doing performance art in a town square of having sex in a mall, when you put that out into the public space, it's no longer just yours. A Facebook account is no different.
GreaterSteven wrote:It just irritates me that I have to censor myself for my workplace outside of my workplace.
Please take this the way it's intended, but it irritates me that I have to go to work, that I can't simply throw away my cellphone and my wallet and travel the world, but here we are. I understand not being particularly ecstatic that you have to play by the rules that society has put in place (even the unwritten ones), but that's part of living in that society.
GreaterSteven wrote:If you don't like something, try and change it. That 'live with it' attitude doesn't accomplish anything.
And what has the guy in the article accomplished by not censoring himself? You can flail around all you want, resisting the establishment and safety-pinning patches to your jacket, but that's not how things get changed, either.
GreaterSteven wrote:You can try and sway public opinion. I would think most people would agree to not having employers check their facebooks, it's just most people don't even know what's going on yet.
I think it's fair to say that most people who have a Facebook account are aware that an employer could check it out, especially since it's been in the media in the last couple/few years and many, many colleges have been telling their students very specifically not to put anything on it that you don't want a potential employer to see. More importantly, however, how is anything that this guy did or anything that you've mentioned so far an effective way to sway public opinion?
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:42 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
GreaterSteven wrote:Yes, I do realize this.

I'm saying I shouldn't have to. They shouldn't be checking it out. Separate work from private life.
One of the ways that you separate your work from your private life is by not letting the two overlap. When you put your personal life in a public space, you can't call "no fair" when someone at work comes across it.


Nougatrocity wrote:Some people choose to have their personal life exude a professional air.

Some people choose to have their personal be, well, personal. Most people use their facebook profile as a social tool, and that profile embodies their personality and lets someone get to know you in a way.

Most material on a facebook profile has NOTHING to do with how one conducts oneself in a professional environment.

I hate the idea of 'professionalism' as an all-encompassing way of life, honestly. From 'professional' facebook profiling, to the idea that someone with a tattoo on their face is less professional than someone else.
While I can appreciate what you're saying, I don't understand why you object to clicking the "private" box on your profile if you indeed want your personal life to stay "personal". If you're putting your life out into the public space, how are you keeping it personal? I mean, I don't care if you're doing performance art in a town square of having sex in a mall, when you put that out into the public space, it's no longer just yours. A Facebook account is no different.[/quote]

First, if using sick days for hangovers is something that's against company policy, this guy deserves whatever disciplinary action he gets if he friended his employer. Make sure you see those ifs, though. If sick days are allowed for any reason, and only require a doctor's note after more than one, then it's really not the company's business why he's taking one.

Second, and beyond the scope of the article: 22/7, you're right about part of separation meaning not allowing an overlap. But how does your activity in a public space overlap with your professional life? At all? You sure as fuck CAN call 'no fair' when someone comes across facebook info that they don't like but isn't related to your job. There are reasons to have a public facebook, and very rarely does anything ON one's facebook pertain to one's professional life. Plus, someone doesn't just 'come across' facebook info. You have to specifically search for it. In that sense it's above and beyond your boss seeing you trashed on the street on a Friday night, although both instances are equally unrelated to your job and job performance.

Just because you make something public on your own does not mean an employer has the right to use that information in a hiring decision, the same way the information that you are black, Jewish, female, homosexual, or socialist cannot be used that way.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby 22/7 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:57 pm UTC

Nougatrocity wrote:First, if using sick days for hangovers is something that's against company policy, this guy deserves whatever disciplinary action he gets if he friended his employer. Make sure you see those ifs, though. If sick days are allowed for any reason, and only require a doctor's note after more than one, then it's really not the company's business why he's taking one.
I completely agree with this. However, it's unrealistic to think that you can make something like the fact that you're lying to your boss public knowledge and not expect that to reflect poorly on you, hurt your relationship with your boss, etc.
Nougatrocity wrote:Second, and beyond the scope of the article: 22/7, you're right about part of separation meaning not allowing an overlap. But how does your activity in a public space overlap with your professional life? At all? You sure as fuck CAN call 'no fair' when someone comes across facebook info that they don't like but isn't related to your job. There are reasons to have a public facebook, and very rarely does anything ON one's facebook pertain to one's professional life. Plus, someone doesn't just 'come across' facebook info. You have to specifically search for it. In that sense it's above and beyond your boss seeing you trashed on the street on a Friday night, although both instances are equally unrelated to your job and job performance.
You absolutely can "come across" information on Facebook, especially if the person's profile is public. You could be searching for people who have graduated with certain degrees, you could be checking out photo comments, you could be simply reading your feed and skip from one person to the next, happening on their profile because the name looked familiar. You're making it sound like there has to be the intent to check out their profile as a tool to determine their fitness to be an employee in order for the information to be found.
Nougatrocity wrote:Just because you make something public on your own does not mean an employer has the right to use that information in a hiring decision, the same way the information that you are black, Jewish, female, homosexual, or socialist cannot be used that way.
Absolutely. But you've implied that information you put on Facebook is someone protected, and it's not.
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:07 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
Nougatrocity wrote:Just because you make something public on your own does not mean an employer has the right to use that information in a hiring decision, the same way the information that you are black, Jewish, female, homosexual, or socialist cannot be used that way.
Absolutely. But you've implied that information you put on Facebook is someone protected, and it's not.


Well, I'm arguing that it should be.

And if someone does just happen to come across facebook information, that's still the same as walking by an employee or prospective employee, and using that information for hiring purposes. It's not right. The only pertinent information is the employee's skills and background. Facebook information and personal use of time are not related to that, at all.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby 22/7 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:13 pm UTC

Hang on, hang on. You're telling me that you think that information on Facebook should be protected the same way that your ethnicity, gender, skin color, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc. are protected?
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:29 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:Hang on, hang on. You're telling me that you think that information on Facebook should be protected the same way that your ethnicity, gender, skin color, religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc. are protected?


Yeah.

Not specifically facebook; just any information that has no bearing on your ability to perform the job and act as expected while doing so.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby 22/7 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:01 pm UTC

I think we're have a fundamental disagreement as to whether or not information on Facebook could hold any relevance as to whether an employee could be a liability to a company rather than an asset.
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
I want to be!

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby GreaterSteven » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:09 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:I think we're have a fundamental disagreement as to whether or not information on Facebook could hold any relevance as to whether an employee could be a liability to a company rather than an asset.


We're just saying that, like being seen wasted on a Saturday night, the things in facebook shouldn't have an impact on your judgement of an employer. I certainly as hell act different in my personal life than in my professional life, and that's reflected in my facebook. I don't think my personal life should be used as a measure.

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Xeio » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:16 pm UTC

GreaterSteven wrote:
22/7 wrote:I think we're have a fundamental disagreement as to whether or not information on Facebook could hold any relevance as to whether an employee could be a liability to a company rather than an asset.
We're just saying that, like being seen wasted on a Saturday night, the things in facebook shouldn't have an impact on your judgement of an employer. I certainly as hell act different in my personal life than in my professional life, and that's reflected in my facebook. I don't think my personal life should be used as a measure.
Problem being, that personality and other 'personal' factors, are actually what may help you get a job. If you're an asshole who doesn't work well with anyone, that is bad. Sure, maybe you just act like that everywhere BUT work, but what kind of reassurement is that to your future employment? If you get wasted every night, it's not hard to draw the line that maybe you won't in fact be the great employee they want.

The reason race/ethnicity/sex/ect. are protected, is because they don't have an effect on your work output, and thus are not valid reasons to choose not to hire someone. Your lifestyle does.

Should it be the only measure? No. But if you have a choice between two otherwise nearly identical candidates...

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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby sophyturtle » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:31 pm UTC

One does not have to have a public facebook account. There are setting to limit what people can see of your profile. Why not just make pictures 'friends only', as you would other possibly damaging personal data? I figure, if you would not what your mom to see it, make is so she cannot google you and find it.
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Re: Caught out on Facebook - Another One

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:35 pm UTC

As another example, I know many companies offer health insurance benefits only to their non-smoking employees. This is not an act of discrimination. This is saying, we'll provide your health insurance, but don't piss on us.

Companies are concerned with image. This kid wasn't really in a position to damage the image, but the fact remains his conduct was unprofessional, in that he overlapped his personal with his private. Furthermore, openly declaring that he was lying to his boss was unprofessional as well. To compound this whole mess, his response to being caught was "LOL epic fail!"? This to me indicates he's immature and ignorant enough to pull such a stunt and be surprised at it.

Companies have an image to uphold. If you don't want to work for an institution that abides by these codes of conduct, there are other avenues for you to seek employment. Just as you can be upset that some companies do this, you are free to pursue employment in places that don't.

My suggestion if this sort of behavior really upsets you, is so seek employment from smaller organizations with a more casual work environment.

I think the previously mentioned rule of thumb pertaining to 'if you don't want your mom to see it, don't post it' is a good one.
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