Syria

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Syria

Postby Kachi » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:06 pm UTC

So, apparently we invaded with choppers and killed several Syrians, but at this point no one seems to be owning up to it or giving reasons. If it's true, apparently it will be our first time publicly launching an attack on Syrian soil.

Presumably, it was an effort to take down some insurgents. WTF is going on?

50 bucks says its a conspiracy to turn our attention to war and get people to vote for McCain!

Speculation, updates, etc. welcome.

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Re: Syria

Postby blakat1313 » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:32 pm UTC

Do you have a link to an article or some other information? I'd like to see more before I make any judgments on this.

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Re: Syria

Postby stapleface » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:39 pm UTC


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Re: Syria

Postby blakat1313 » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:59 pm UTC

Thanks.
We better have a good reason for killing civilians. I doubt this is a conspiracy to get people to vote republican, though.

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Re: Syria

Postby clintonius » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:30 pm UTC

Jesus h christ. Remember several years ago when people were trying to predict the next nation the US would go after under the Bush Doctrine? I believe Syria was among the top contenders. This goddamn well better have been a complete fuckup, and a one-time deal.
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Re: Syria

Postby Angua » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:42 pm UTC

I agree with the conspiracy view. Though it is probably to get the view off the credit crunch which is making the republicans look bad as they're in office rather than a direct vote McCain thing.
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Re: Syria

Postby RealGrouchy » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:58 pm UTC

Well, they did take NK off the axis of terror list. Syria must have won (lost?) the audition to take its place.

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Re: Syria

Postby psyck0 » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:17 pm UTC

Jesus Fucking Christ. I hate that country SO INCREDIBLY MUCH, and virtually NOTHING it is doing makes me any happier these days.

Get the smart people out so we can bomb it to hell please.

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Re: Syria

Postby cwoodin » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:21 pm UTC

RealGrouchy wrote:Well, they did take NK off the axis of terror list. Syria must have won (lost?) the audition to take its place.

- RG>
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/c14151.htm

Syria's been designated since '79, if this is what you're talking about.

(Also, just so this post wasn't a waste in case it's not what you're talking about and I'm made to look like an ass)

I really hope this was more of a one-time thing and we don't get into a(nother) clusterfuck in the region.
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Re: Syria

Postby Guest » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:34 pm UTC

How about kicking the USA out of the G-8? This is a blatant aggression against Syria's territorial integrity!

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Re: Syria

Postby Hawknc » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:50 pm UTC

psyck0 wrote:Get the smart people out so we can bomb it to hell please.

The innocent stupid civilians totally get what they deserve, though, right?
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Re: Syria

Postby Darkscull » Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:33 pm UTC

I'm a bit concerned that it seems borders are becoming less and less important to some part of the American military system (whether it's decisions on the ground, or official orders from the top). I mean, possible attacks in pakistani territory, now in syria.

I suppose it fits with the idea that they're fighting people of specific ideologies rather than nationalities, but they should still be respecting the fact that other people are responsible for the countries they're operating in.

Honestly, have they not learnt that they can't 'eradicate terrorism' on their own? they need the cooperation of local authorities to even start making headway, and waltzing into new countries guns blazing (literally) is not going to endear them to the cause.

It's just generally scary that someone somewhere has gotten so far into the lone crusader role that they don't even pay lipservice to the conventions of modern international relations or decency.
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Re: Syria

Postby Intercept » Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:42 pm UTC

Hawknc wrote:
psyck0 wrote:Get the smart people out so we can bomb it to hell please.

The innocent stupid civilians totally get what they deserve, though, right?


I honestly thought he was talking about the U.S.

...Oh, right, bad either way.
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Re: Syria

Postby frezik » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:38 am UTC

How does attacking a bunch of civilians help McCain? If anything, it's making the current administration look even more like a bunch of military incompetents, which isn't going to help McCain one bit. Or maybe the administration is delibrately sabotoging the campaign to make way for Palin 2012.

More likely, it's just a normal military screwup.
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Re: Syria

Postby RealGrouchy » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:54 am UTC

cwoodin wrote:
RealGrouchy wrote:Well, they did take NK off the axis of terror list. Syria must have won (lost?) the audition to take its place.

- RG>
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/c14151.htm

Syria's been designated since '79, if this is what you're talking about.
I was referring to GWB's "Axis of Evil", which IIRC until recently consisted of Iraq, Iran, and North Korea.

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Re: Syria

Postby Kachi » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:43 am UTC

I doubt this is a conspiracy to get people to vote republican, though.


So do I, but if it turns out that it is, at least I totally called it.

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Re: Syria

Postby clintonius » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:00 am UTC

. . . you can't really say you doubt something and then take credit for totally calling it if it happens.
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Re: Syria

Postby Kachi » Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:30 am UTC

Oh, I can. I can take credit for a lot of things.

Like that time your dad banged your mom, conceiving you.

I don't know.

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Re: Syria

Postby cwoodin » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:22 am UTC

RealGrouchy wrote:
cwoodin wrote:
RealGrouchy wrote:Well, they did take NK off the axis of terror list. Syria must have won (lost?) the audition to take its place.

- RG>
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/c14151.htm

Syria's been designated since '79, if this is what you're talking about.
I was referring to GWB's "Axis of Evil", which IIRC until recently consisted of Iraq, Iran, and North Korea.

- RG>
My mistake - however, upon further review, in 2002 it looks like Bolton essentially added Syria (along with Libya and Cuba) to the list of original rogue states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_evil#Bolton:_.22Beyond_the_Axis_of_Evil.22
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1971852.stm
In similar news, the previous sentence was slightly convoluted.
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Re: Syria

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:32 am UTC

Speculation aside, is there any evidence that there was an American attack? The article, unless I missed something, just seems to say "some civilians died and 'American' forces are to blame"

Could this be a rumor run rampant?
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Re: Syria

Postby cwoodin » Mon Oct 27, 2008 4:21 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Speculation aside, is there any evidence that there was an American attack? The article, unless I missed something, just seems to say "some civilians died and 'American' forces are to blame"

Could this be a rumor run rampant?
The Article wrote:"Four American helicopters violated Syrian airspace around 16:45 local time (1345 GMT) on Sunday. They penetrated eight kilometres (five miles) into Syria," official Syrian media said.

"American soldiers" who had emerged from helicopters "attacked a civilian building under construction and fired at workmen inside, causing eight deaths," reports said.
As far as we know from the article, the helicopters and soldiers were American.
It's entirely possible that this is just an attempt by Syria to turn the world (more) against America, but I'd take them at their word on this one and speculate "why (it was done)" rather than "who (did it)"

EDIT: To add to this, here's an LA Times article on the same subject: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-ussyria27-2008oct27,0,3121766.story

It says
Details were sketchy. In Washington, several military representatives asked about the operation did not deny that a raid had taken place. Although they would not confirm the attack, they used language typically employed after raids conducted by secretive Special Operations forces.

Damascus' official Syrian Arab News Agency said U.S. military helicopters entered Syria along the Iraqi border in Bukamal near the town of Deir Ezzor, which is considered a haven for Sunni Arab militants infiltrating Iraq.
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Re: Syria

Postby KingLoser » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:08 am UTC

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1027/syria.html

Syria has accused US troops of killing at least eight civilians, including four children, in a helicopter raid inside Syrian territory close to the border with Iraq.

Syria described the attack as a serious act of aggression and has formally protested to US and Iraqi diplomats in Damascus.

A Syrian government statement said four helicopters were involved in the attack on a building near the town of Abu Kamal, five miles inside the Syrian border.
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There has been no official response yet from Washington.

Emphasis mine, gg. Well, until there's a response, it is just accusation. I wonder what Bush and Co. will have to say about this.
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Re: Syria

Postby Neppo1345 » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:01 pm UTC

In the age of international terrorism, the line between terrorist, child, and insurgent is extremely blurred.

Of course Syria is going to claim civilians were killed even if it was an insurgent/terrorist hotspot; and what is the definition of 'child' someone who physically can't strap a bomb to their chest? If this man and his family were truly innocents caught up in the raid I feel for them, but I have to believe that in this case being in the wrong place at the wrong time was not a coincidence.

I feel that the U.S. forces did what they needed to do. The war against terror is borderless.

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Re: Syria

Postby psyck0 » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:25 pm UTC

Neppo1345 wrote:In the age of international terrorism, the line between terrorist, child, and insurgent is extremely blurred.

Of course Syria is going to claim civilians were killed even if it was an insurgent/terrorist hotspot; and what is the definition of 'child' someone who physically can't strap a bomb to their chest? If this man and his family were truly innocents caught up in the raid I feel for them, but I have to believe that in this case being in the wrong place at the wrong time was not a coincidence.

I feel that the U.S. forces did what they needed to do. The war against terror is borderless.


How stupid are you, honestly?

No child can ever, EVER be considered a terrorist. It's completely against international laws, which the US has ratified. Furthermore, the US's tactics amount to little more than terrorism themselves- fly in troops or missiles to populated, civilian areas and kill everyone because they think there may be a few militants there. Hardly different than driving in a bomb to a populated, civilian area and killing everyone because it happens to be near a police station. If you really think there's a significant difference, you're the biggest idiot I've ever had the displeasure of knowing. This approach only serves to breed more hatred.

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Re: Syria

Postby KingLoser » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:34 pm UTC

Neppo1345 wrote:The war against terror is borderless.

Alas, the world is not. And neither is the US' authority, as much as the Bush administration would like us to think otherwise.
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Re: Syria

Postby Darkscull » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:03 pm UTC

Neppo1345 wrote:In the age of international terrorism, the line between terrorist, child, and insurgent is extremely blurred.

Of course Syria is going to claim civilians were killed even if it was an insurgent/terrorist hotspot; and what is the definition of 'child' someone who physically can't strap a bomb to their chest? If this man and his family were truly innocents caught up in the raid I feel for them, but I have to believe that in this case being in the wrong place at the wrong time was not a coincidence.

I feel that the U.S. forces did what they needed to do. The war against terror is borderless.


...


I direct people to my previous post in this thread, possibly with 'a bit concerned' read as something stronger.
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Re: Syria

Postby Gunfingers » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:12 pm UTC

I'm curious, if the US had claimed that Syrians entered Iraq and killed a dozen soldiers, would you believe it or would you hold out for some kind of proof? All we have so far is some random country throwing around accusations. When there's evidence other than "Syria says" i'll start thinking about believing it.

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Re: Syria

Postby cwoodin » Mon Oct 27, 2008 1:53 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:I'm curious, if the US had claimed that Syrians entered Iraq and killed a dozen soldiers, would you believe it or would you hold out for some kind of proof? All we have so far is some random country throwing around accusations. When there's evidence other than "Syria says" i'll start thinking about believing it.
I think if the Syrians had been involved in an ever-deepening conflict in the region for 6(?) years, and had recently been shown to have performed similar actions in neighboring countries (Pakistan), then I might look at the track record of their leader, who seems to think that the conflict we're involved in puts the Syrian military above things like 'sovereignty' and 'borders,' then yeah, I guess I'd probably buy it if the US said they went into Iraq and killed a dozen soldiers.
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Re: Syria

Postby Plasma Man » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:20 pm UTC

I still want more evidence, but at the moment I think this is fairly likely to be true. As has been pointed out, the US has shown little respect for national borders between Afghanistan and Pakistan: I see no reason why they would respect the border between Iraq and Syria any more. The whole strategy seems rather counter-productive as bombing people doesn't make friends, it makes martyrs.
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Re: Syria

Postby Indon » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:31 pm UTC

It might also be noted that considering the concentrations of military force in nearby Iraq, it would be possible for Americans to attack a country in that area without being part of the American military (and thus without permission or knowledge of that military).

Indiscriminate firing on civilians also meets the MO of the Blackwater Group.
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Re: Syria

Postby KingLoser » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:43 pm UTC

Still no official word from Washington.

Seems foreign rule doesn't stretch quite as far as taking responsibility.
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Re: Syria

Postby Angua » Mon Oct 27, 2008 5:51 pm UTC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7693583.stm

It seems as though while there isn't any official word from the US, it's pretty likely.
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Re: Syria

Postby cwoodin » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:49 pm UTC

Angua wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7693583.stm

It seems as though while there isn't any official word from the US, it's pretty likely.


Yeah, I would guess that there would be a stronger denial than the near-lack of one that was in the article if the US weren't responsible.
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Re: Syria

Postby Ian Ex Machina » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:53 pm UTC

If we go with the bbc article of the attacking of civilians is terrorist aggression, the the war on terror would involve america fighting itself if the claim is verified?
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Re: Syria

Postby segmentation fault » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:54 pm UTC

Ian Ex Machina wrote:If we go with the bbc article of the attacking of civilians is terrorist aggression, the the war on terror would involve america fighting itself if the claim is verified?


its not terrorism if the president does it.
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Re: Syria

Postby Ian Ex Machina » Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:09 pm UTC

segmentation fault wrote:
Ian Ex Machina wrote:If we go with the bbc article of the attacking of civilians is terrorist aggression, the the war on terror would involve america fighting itself if the claim is verified?


its not terrorism if the president does it.

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Re: Syria

Postby Neppo1345 » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:36 pm UTC

psyck0 wrote:
Neppo1345 wrote:In the age of international terrorism, the line between terrorist, child, and insurgent is extremely blurred.

Of course Syria is going to claim civilians were killed even if it was an insurgent/terrorist hotspot; and what is the definition of 'child' someone who physically can't strap a bomb to their chest? If this man and his family were truly innocents caught up in the raid I feel for them, but I have to believe that in this case being in the wrong place at the wrong time was not a coincidence.

I feel that the U.S. forces did what they needed to do. The war against terror is borderless.


How stupid are you, honestly?

No child can ever, EVER be considered a terrorist. It's completely against international laws, which the US has ratified. Furthermore, the US's tactics amount to little more than terrorism themselves- fly in troops or missiles to populated, civilian areas and kill everyone because they think there may be a few militants there. Hardly different than driving in a bomb to a populated, civilian area and killing everyone because it happens to be near a police station. If you really think there's a significant difference, you're the biggest idiot I've ever had the displeasure of knowing. This approach only serves to breed more hatred.



The problem is not my idiocy; it's your naïveté.

I would like to see any proof of an international law stating that a child (younger than 18) cannot be considered a terrorist.

If a 16 year old marches into your workplace and detonates an explosive device, he's not a terrorist because of his age? People don't die because he's under 18? A soldier sees a boy running towards his checkpoint with a grenade, and he's supposed to run away? A 17 year old points a rifle at a soldier and the soldier has to die because the shooter looks too young?

I will say that my original statement came across slightly skewed. I'm not happy that women and children died, and I’m not condoning the fact that the U.S. entered Syria without consent, but I will say what needs to be done needs to be done. If Syria is not willing to cooperate (as darkscull suggests) then what other measures can be used?

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Re: Syria

Postby KingLoser » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:11 pm UTC

Neppo1345 wrote:If Syria is not willing to cooperate (as darkscull suggests) then what other measures can be used?

How about diplomacy, like the rest of the world?

"Co-operate or die" doesn't really win any friends. Geez, I'm glad they're wiping out all those terrorists from the Middle-East. :roll:
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Re: Syria

Postby KingLoser » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:51 am UTC

Sorry for double post, but new news on this:

BreakingNews.ie - Printer friendly version
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Terror group leader 'killed in Syria raid'
28/10/2008 - 08:19:45

American forces killed the head of a Syrian network that funnelled fighters, weapons and cash into Iraq during the cross-border helicopter raid, according to a US anti-terror chief.

The raid targeted the home of Abu Ghadiyah, the nickname for the leader of a key cell of foreign fighters in Iraq, according to the official.

The US Treasury Department identified Abu Ghadiyah as one of four major figures in al-Qaida’s Iraq wing who were living in Syria.

Yesterday, a villager said US forces grabbed two men and took them away by helicopter during the cross-border raid.
During funerals today, residents shouted anti-American slogans and carried banners reading: “Down with Bush and the American enemy.”

Syria’s foreign minister condemned the raid as “cowboy politics”.

The Syrian government said four US military helicopters attacked a civilian building under construction shortly before dusk, killing eight people in Sukkariyeh – a village about five miles inside the Syrian border.

A US military official in Washington confirmed that special forces had conducted a raid in Syria that targeted the network of al-Qaida-linked foreign fighters moving through Syria into Iraq.

“We are taking matters into our own hands,” the official said.

The attack is another sign that the United States is aggressively launching military raids across the borders of Afghanistan and Iraq to destroy insurgent sanctuaries.

In Pakistan, US missile strikes have killed at least two senior al-Qaida operatives this year and ramped up the threat to groups suspected of plotting attacks on Western troops in Afghanistan and terror strikes in the West.

A Sukkariyeh resident said he saw at least two men taken into custody by American forces and whisked away by helicopter.

Another villager displayed amateur video footage he took with his mobile phone that shows four helicopters flying towards them as villagers point to the skies in alarm.

At the targeted building, about a five-minute drive off the main road, the floor was bloodstained and white tennis shoes were surrounded by blood and pieces of human flesh. A tent pitched near the site had bags of bread, pots and pans and wool blankets.

In Washington, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino refused to confirm, or even discuss, Sunday’s attack.

Iran condemned the attack as did Russia, which has had close ties with Syria since Soviet times.

The raid also put the Baghdad government in an awkward position while negotiating a security pact with the United States.

Iraqi officials said they hoped the raid would not harm their relations with Syria, but the government spokesman in Baghdad noted that it happened in an area known as a terrorist haven.

“We are trying to contain the fallout from the incident,” Iraqi Foreign Ministry under-secretary Labid Abbawi said. “It is regrettable and we are sorry it happened.”

Government spokesman Ali al-Dabbagh, however, said the area where the raid occurred “is a theatre of military operations where anti-Iraq terrorist activity takes place”.

Syria’s foreign minister Walid al-Moallem warned that if there was a repeat attack on Syria “we would defend our territories”.

The Syrian government statement said eight people were killed, including a man and his four children and a woman. However, local officials said seven men were killed and two other people were wounded, including a woman among the injured.

An Associated Press journalist at the funerals in the village cemetery saw the bodies of seven men – none of them children. The discrepancy could not immediately be explained.

The attack comes at a time when Syria appears to be making some amends with the United States.

Though Syria has long been viewed by the US as a destabilising country in the Middle East, Damascus has been trying in recent months to change its image and end years of global seclusion.

The raid came just days after the commander of US forces in western Iraq said American troops were redoubling efforts to secure the Syrian border, which he called an “uncontrolled” gateway for fighters entering Iraq.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/mhidmhqlkfid/

Seems respecting international borders is not something the US government need to practice, despite preaching. These Syrians were killed by terrorists.
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Princess Marzipan
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Re: Syria

Postby Princess Marzipan » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:14 am UTC

KingLoser wrote:These Syrians were killed by terrorists.


Alright, as much as I hate my country doing such deplorable shit as this, that statement right there is total bull.

There was a legitimate military goal to the attack. Capture/kill a person who has knowingly aided our enemy. Terrorist attacks are random and are designed to kill many people, or make people feel unsafe. The goal of this attack was not to tell Syrians "watch the fuck out or we'll kill your ass." It may have been "don't fucking aid Al-Qaeda, or we'll kill your ass," but that is quite distinctly different.

The US ignored international borders and violated the territory of a sovereign nation, yes. It did NOT conduct a fucking terrorist attack.
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