US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

Princess Marzipan
Posts: 7717
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 5:28 am UTC
Location: neither a road, nor an island

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby Princess Marzipan » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:35 pm UTC

mosc wrote:What an ass. He counters political exaggeration with even FURTHER exaggeration.


You mean comparing quotes to each other so you the viewer can see how utterly fucking stupid they are when you realize they both came from the same person?

...Yeah, he needs to chill out on the hyperbole?
"It's Saturday night. I've got no date, a two-liter of Shasta, and my all-Rush mixtape. Let's rock!"
"I am just about to be brilliant!"
General_Norris, on feminism, wrote:If you lose your six Pokémon, you lost.

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5403
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby mosc » Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:01 pm UTC

The comments had totally different meanings and obviously Palin is presenting a slippery slope argument and not attesting her beliefs.

Look, I don't like her either. She used absurd hyperbole. Calling her a fraud though is even more of an absurd hyperbole.
Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

User avatar
EsotericWombat
Colorful Orator
Posts: 2567
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:36 pm UTC
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby EsotericWombat » Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:33 pm UTC

It really isn't. She's been lying through her teeth ever since she's stepped onto the national stage. And if (falsely) applying the label of socialism to Obama because of things that he's proposing that she's done doesn't make her a fraud (HUGE if), then the rest of her tenure as the GOP Veep nominee does.
Image

User avatar
apricity
almost grown-up but not quite
Posts: 3983
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:28 am UTC

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby apricity » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:31 pm UTC

EsotericWombat wrote:It really isn't. She's been lying through her teeth ever since she's stepped onto the national stage. And if (falsely) applying the label of socialism to Obama because of things that he's proposing that she's done doesn't make her a fraud (HUGE if), then the rest of her tenure as the GOP Veep nominee does.

I don't think she's lying per say. I think she's inexperienced enough that she hasn't actually worked out consistent opinions, so she contradicts herself because she doesn't know what she really believes.
LE4d wrote:have you considered becoming an electron

it takes just a little practice to learn to be
(she/her/hers)

GreaterSteven
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:23 am UTC

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby GreaterSteven » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:26 pm UTC

Doesn't know what she's supposed to believe.

User avatar
apricity
almost grown-up but not quite
Posts: 3983
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:28 am UTC

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby apricity » Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:11 am UTC

GreaterSteven wrote:Doesn't know what she's supposed to believe.
Yes! That's even better and much closer to what I actually wanted to say.
LE4d wrote:have you considered becoming an electron

it takes just a little practice to learn to be
(she/her/hers)

User avatar
Vellyr
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:57 pm UTC

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby Vellyr » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:33 am UTC

I don't want to digress into semantics here (oh alright, I actually do), but I feel like "socialist" is a perfectly acceptable way to describe something that's to the left of your views. Socialism is the left endpoint on the axis of liberal -> conservative, while free-market capitalism/corporate oligarchy is on the right side. Calling something socialist doesn't necessarily mean that it's something practiced by socialist governments, just that it's something that a socialist government would be more likely to do than a conservative one. It's certainly better than saying "socialist-ish" at any rate.

User avatar
Malice
Posts: 3894
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby Malice » Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:05 am UTC

By that logic, anything to the right of my viewpoints is fascist. Not only is that misleading, but both fascist and socialist are strong, emotionally-charged words, and they are used precisely for that purpose.
Image

User avatar
EsotericWombat
Colorful Orator
Posts: 2567
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:36 pm UTC
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby EsotericWombat » Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:14 pm UTC

Palin lied about her role in the Bridge to Nowhere. She lied about what finding the Troopergate commission arrived at (saying that she was cleared of all wrongdoing, even though she was found in violation of ethics laws). I don't need to go on, but there's plenty to choose from. She's a fraud.
Image

User avatar
Garm
Posts: 2241
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:29 pm UTC
Location: Usually at work. Otherwise, Longmont, CO.

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby Garm » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:45 pm UTC

Vellyr wrote:I don't want to digress into semantics here (oh alright, I actually do), but I feel like "socialist" is a perfectly acceptable way to describe something that's to the left of your views. Socialism is the left endpoint on the axis of liberal -> conservative, while free-market capitalism/corporate oligarchy is on the right side. Calling something socialist doesn't necessarily mean that it's something practiced by socialist governments, just that it's something that a socialist government would be more likely to do than a conservative one. It's certainly better than saying "socialist-ish" at any rate.


This is incredibly intellectually dishonest. Why bother having a spectrum at all if you do this? Might as well just call red light black because it's close enough to infrared which we can't see anyway.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
- JFK

User avatar
Bubbles McCoy
Posts: 1106
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:49 am UTC
Location: California

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:44 am UTC

Wikipedia wrote:Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society.

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and creates an unequal society. All socialists advocate the creation of an egalitarian society, in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly, although there is considerable disagreement among socialists over how, and to what extent this could be achieved.

From this definition, Obama's views are noticably socialistic. America has had very noticable elements of socialism for a while, I think the word "socialism" is only an insult if you're the type who dislikes the above society. The type of people who aren't voting for Obama due to his "socialistic" ideas are the type who specifically reject the more distributive goals his administration would have, which is a fair application of the definition. I suppose I may be slanted due to the social circles I have been in where socialism was never much a dirty word as it's a fair way (in the sense it was self-applied) to describe the views of a number of people I've known, but it provides a reasonably accurate desciption of Obama (unlike communist or Marxist, which are the polar opposites of Fascism in the insult spectrum of American politics).

User avatar
EsotericWombat
Colorful Orator
Posts: 2567
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:36 pm UTC
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby EsotericWombat » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:18 am UTC

You cut off just before it started talking about nationalization, which is an essential component of socialism.
Image

User avatar
Bubbles McCoy
Posts: 1106
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:49 am UTC
Location: California

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby Bubbles McCoy » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:36 am UTC

Good point... Obama does talk about "spreading the wealth/pie" around and in effect owning the next generation of power production (I could be wrong on this last point, but I'm under the impression the federal government will end up owning a good portion of our power infrastructure), and I suppose it's debatable if this really even counts as being closer to socialism. I'm inclined to say it is, but not by much.

User avatar
EsotericWombat
Colorful Orator
Posts: 2567
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:36 pm UTC
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby EsotericWombat » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:01 am UTC

He was talking about shifting the tax burden. That's not nationalization or socialism. It can be argued that the Wall Street bailout is, but as an isolated instance of government action it can hardly be seen as sufficient to denote that our government is socialist or that the people who supported it are socialists any more than believing in self-restraint makes you a Buddhist.
Image

The Reaper
Posts: 4008
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:37 am UTC
Location: San Antonio, Tx
Contact:

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby The Reaper » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:15 pm UTC

Labor isn't working, vote conservative. :D
thatcher poster.gif
thatcher poster.gif (13.41 KiB) Viewed 2304 times


The reason why America sees socialism as a bad thing, is that during the cold war, Russia. Anything that reminds the people of that is a bad thing, regardless of the fact that most of the countries in the world are socialist to a greater extent. Silly Americans. Socialism is on the upswing now, because, seemingly, a good chunk of the voters don't care about the whole thing anymore.

I tend to dislike the bureaucracy associated with socialism, so I tend not to vote for such agendas, or, if prompted, for the lesser seeming of the two.

poster70604_468x714.jpg
poster70604_468x714.jpg (89.06 KiB) Viewed 2308 times

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26818
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:14 pm UTC

Do CCTV "security" cameras count as inspectors?

But yeah, socialism and communism as words have really negative connotations with older and conservative Americans because of the Cold War, far more than because of any actual particular policies implemented by Europe's generally more "socialist" governments.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
EsotericWombat
Colorful Orator
Posts: 2567
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:36 pm UTC
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby EsotericWombat » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:13 am UTC

The government doesn't exist to protect the Revolution, the Revolution exists to protect the government, etc.
Image

Kachi
Publicly Posts Private Messages
Posts: 781
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:53 pm UTC
Location: Everywhere except SB.

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby Kachi » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:43 am UTC

fyi, I'm going to bring a printup of that chart, along with a chart of the unemployment rates since the GD (http://thislifeandtime.blogspot.com/2008/09/democrat-vs-republican-presidents.html), when I go to vote.

However, I have to ask, in the interest of fairness (and also because it could possibly come up)... why is only the data for 04/05 represented? Does this represent Bush's entire last term, or a single fiscal year? It would be... an embarrassing misstep if this were to turn out being the one odd year within the last eight, nevermind the last several decades.

User avatar
jestingrabbit
Factoids are just Datas that haven't grown up yet
Posts: 5967
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:50 pm UTC
Location: Sydney

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby jestingrabbit » Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:46 am UTC

Kachi wrote:fyi, I'm going to bring...


Isn't having political material banned when voting in some states?
ameretrifle wrote:Magic space feudalism is therefore a viable idea.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26818
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:08 am UTC

Kachi wrote:why is only the data for 04/05 represented?

Because that's the latest year their source has on its website. If you want data from 1981 on, go to http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/22685.html.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
Endless Mike
Posts: 3204
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:04 pm UTC

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:53 pm UTC

I love Twitter. From my local feed on Twinkle:

"voted R down the ballott, prefer the enemy we know over all this socialism masquerading as 'change'"

(Misspelling maintained)

Apparently it's not actually change, just pretending to be, so this person thinks we're a socialist nation already?

Random832
Posts: 2525
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:38 pm UTC

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby Random832 » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:08 pm UTC

Indon wrote:Since states would be expected to get distributions of federal funding based on their population, it makes sense that wealthier states spend more and poorer states get more, comparatively.


The point is, it doesn't have to be that way - the wealthier states could just get better roads (etc) than the poorer states. That it is that way says something.

User avatar
22/7
I'm pretty sure I have "The Slavery In My Asshole" on DVD.
Posts: 6475
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:30 pm UTC
Location: 127.0.0.1

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby 22/7 » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:35 pm UTC

Other than that it is that way, what does it actually say, Random?
Totally not a hypothetical...

Steroid wrote:
bigglesworth wrote:If your economic reality is a choice, then why are you not as rich as Bill Gates?
Don't want to be.
I want to be!

Random832
Posts: 2525
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:38 pm UTC

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby Random832 » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:43 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:Other than that it is that way, what does it actually say, Random?


It says people in red states have no problem accepting other people's money.

GreaterSteven
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:23 am UTC

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby GreaterSteven » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:46 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:Other than that it is that way, what does it actually say, Random?


It says that by the definition of socialism being exploited this campaign, red states are more socialist than blue states.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26818
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:07 pm UTC

To be more accurate, I think, what it says is that red states benefit more from the "socialism" already in place than blue states do.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

GreaterSteven
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:23 am UTC

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby GreaterSteven » Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:22 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:To be more accurate, I think, what it says is that red states benefit more from the "socialism" already in place than blue states do.


/agree.

Kachi
Publicly Posts Private Messages
Posts: 781
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:53 pm UTC
Location: Everywhere except SB.

Re: US: Are red states the true proponents of socialism?

Postby Kachi » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:30 pm UTC

Isn't having political material banned when voting in some states?


Electioneering isn't allowed, but what constitutes electioneering varies from place to place. They could make me take off an Obama button, or T-shirt. I don't think there's much they can do about wearing charts or graphs that don't even have any candidate's names on them. "What? So you're saying I can't wear something that has statistics on it?"

It's not exactly like distributing literature on sight.

But as it turned out, the printouts I made mysteriously disappeared the night before. Not that it mattered, being that no one would have even seen them aside from the people working the polls. There was absolutely no line.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests