Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Solt » Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:22 am UTC

Kain wrote:Speaking of Commander in Cheif, that should probably be a seperate electable office, with a two year term, with the decision to go to war still resting with congress (and less appropriately but more probably with the president).

It is absurd to assume that someone who has spent their life on legal issues would be the best choice for the overall commander of the military, just as it is absurd to assume that someone whose life has been spent solely in the military would make a good politician. There is no reason members of one group can't be good at working within another, but the assumption that they will is flawed.


Brace yourself, you're in for a surprise: That's how it works right now. You want the military to be run by talented professionals, but you want ultimate control of it to be in civilian hands, for obvious reasons. This is why the president is the commander in chief (via the secretary of defense), only congress can fund the military and authorize war, and why the Joint Chiefs of Staff exist. Since the office of the Secretary of Defense is IN the Pentagon, there is no shortage of military talent to advise him and get things done properly.

This arrangement also follows the theoretical organization of the government where Congress is the legislative branch and the president is the executive branch. Congress makes the decision and the President's office carries out the war.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Mother Superior » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:19 pm UTC

clintonius wrote:Well hey, no worries! But goodness grandma has been sleep the past couple days.

This is... horribly inappropriate.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Moo » Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:35 pm UTC

cerbie wrote:Moo seemed to me to be pretty much asking, "why is it important when you guys get somebody new and different running your government, even to people elsewhere in the world?"
I know we've moved way on but just for the record, this is not at all what I was saying/asking. I was responding to Gunfingers' sarcasm.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:05 pm UTC

And i was just expressing my frustration with the idea that the only "right" choice was the one whose politics more closely resemble Europe's.

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby SJ Zero » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:17 pm UTC

And I was just expressing my frustration with the idea that the only "right" choice was the one whose politics more closely resemble sanity


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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby zealo » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:21 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:And i was just expressing my frustration with the idea that the only "right" choice was the one whose politics more closely resemble Europe's.

no one besides you has had that idea as far as i've noticed
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Okita » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:27 pm UTC

I for one welcome our first ever in the history of the United States of America, an unprecedented event.

That's right, I'm talking about what signifies as a big change for the world.

Our first Hawaiian President.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby 22/7 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:35 pm UTC

zealo wrote:the way i see it, the fact that about 95% of the media i have read calls him 'the first black president' in the first paragraph shows that, well, you are.
Is there something wrong with calling him the first black president? Is there something inaccurate there? Is pointing out that it's historically significant that no nonwhite person has ever been the president of the US somehow wrong? You're from Perth. How many aboriginal PMs have you guys had? I'm kind of surprised with the state of race relations in your own country, in your own state, that you wouldn't understand how this is a big step forward in the movement toward racial equality. I mean, how many aboriginal children living in Australia today honestly have a shot at being PM of Australia in their lifetime or even seeing an aboriginal PM before they die? Give me your best guess. 0? Fewer than 0?
zealo wrote:he is in no way related to the slaves or people who were subject to racist laws prior to the civil rights movement.
Oh right, I forgot that when MLK was assassinated by a white man all the racism in the US disappeared. And you know, the funny thing about racists, they normally don't check your "slave credentials" before they decide to discriminate against you. They're usually pretty equal opportunity if you've got the right look about you.
zealo wrote:he is a first generation kenyan/american who was raised in hawaii and indonesia, (neither location would have put him on the recieving end of a huge ammount of racism as far as i am aware) by his white mother then white grandparents.
No, you're absolutely right. The fact that he's got a white mom, that, in the US, he's of "mixed decent", surely won't lead to any discrimination at all. It's not like while he was running for office people were circulating photos of him in traditional African garb trying to convince on-the-fence racists that he is indeed more African than American. I also forgot that discrimination stops at the end of your childhood. I think they're currently giving all ethnic, religious, orientation and gender minorities forehead tattoos to remind us white men under the age of 55 that we can't discriminate against them. You know, because he's no longer a child. I can't believe I'm typing this right now.
zealo wrote:if you look at him purely in terms of skin color, he has just as many white parents as black ones.

what exactly makes him more black than white?
The fact that he looks black and has black parents in the US is enough. I'd wager it's enough in Perth, too. I'm sorry, but I've spent some time in WA and I've been to a bar that still has a "white side" and a "black side". I've taken some classes at Curtin on the history and current state of race relations between Australian whites and aboriginal people. If you're completely unaware of the fact that racism is still very much alive and well in the world, in the US or even right there at home, if slightly less PC, then it's because you're trying not to see it.
zealo wrote:
Dream wrote:
zealo wrote:what exactly makes him more black than white?
That for the purposes of discrimination and racial prejudice, he's black enough.
according to who? the american public?
YES. ACCORDING TO THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD DISCRIMINATE AGAINST HIM, HE'S BLACK ENOUGH! What about that is honestly so hard for you to believe? Are you so completely out of touch with reality that you think that racists, hell, anyone who is willing to discriminate against a person because of some arbitrary quality they hold, will take the time to make sure that he fits some set of standards before discriminating against him?
zealo wrote:
Gunfingers wrote:And i was just expressing my frustration with the idea that the only "right" choice was the one whose politics more closely resemble Europe's.
no one besides you has had that idea as far as i've noticed
As an American, this can at times be frustrating. It's extremely understandable, even expected, since our top-level government officials have arguably more direct influence on the rest of the world than any other country's, but it can still be frustrating.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Gunfingers » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:41 pm UTC

See, i don't think i would have had a problem if that were all it was. Hell, half the time that is all it is. But then there's stuff like this.

Oh, and welcome back, America. We missed you. *hugs*

Which is just condescending enough to get me to express my annoyance on a webforum.

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Princess Marzipan » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:44 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:
Oh, and welcome back, America. We missed you. *hugs*

Which is just condescending enough to get me to express my annoyance on a webforum.

Yeah, it's pretty terrible that people don't hate us anymore now that we've elected a president who doesn't hate them.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Moo » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:52 pm UTC

I don't know whether it has any influence on any of the comments on here but for the sake of clarity I'll just mention that there has been some discussion here regarding the black / mixed race thing. Some people feel it's inaccurate to describe him as black, and even disrespectful to his white family, and especially to other mixed race people. Of which there are many in the UK. That may be where some wires are being crossed.

This post: no opinion, only reporting what's been going on in talk radio.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby 22/7 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:57 pm UTC

Hang on. From a purely "I agree with Europe that our leadership has been mostly a bunch of fucktards. We have atrocious foreign policy, we (the US government) are constantly overstepping our bounds both at home and abroad, and our financial irresponsibility is helping to take the entire world on a massive financial roller coaster in which the vast majority of other markets are getting completely fucked. On top of that, we're in a completely indefensible war. Oh, and I'm an American" perspective, we've not gone anywhere. And to say to the people on a fairly uniformly liberal forum "we missed you", as if we're some kind of prodigal child, is indeed somewhat condescending. Do we have it coming, yeah probably, but it's generally considered poor form to force the other guy to come begging to you hat-in-hand.
Moo wrote:I don't know whether it has any influence on any of the comments on here but for the sake of clarity I'll just mention that there has been some discussion here regarding the black / mixed race thing. Some people feel it's inaccurate to describe him as black, and even disrespectful to his white family, and especially to other mixed race people. Of which there are many in the UK. That may be where some wires are being crossed.

This post: no opinion, only reporting what's been going on in talk radio.
And I get that, but to the people who still discriminate, he's black because he doesn't look white.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Aikanaro » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:10 pm UTC

I think, socialogically, it harkens back to when it was a legal matter: If you had any black blood in you, you were legally black. As such, mixed folks ended up grouping with blacks, and that's where they ended up being accepted. I suspect that, culturally, they're more likely to be at ease among blacks than among whites (if someone has personal experience on this, please feel free to correct my misconceptions). For one thing, as it has been said, "he's black cos he doesn't look white." However, even though you can draw that distinction, the reverse is less likely to hold true: It's harder to separate out mixed folks from black folks.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby cerbie » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:18 pm UTC

Woxor wrote:
cerbie wrote:so it matters for more than just being C&C and treaty signer

Assuming that you're abbreviating "Commander & Chief," it's actually commander-in-chief.
I had previously not researched abbreviations for it. I was more just typing out and thinking, "Commander-in-Chief is long, and requires two shifts and hyphens," and typed it out that way. I'll probably use CinC from now on.

lorenith wrote:I haven't heard anyone complaining about Race, but I have been seeing a lot of "Welcome to the USSA" and random socialism things and stuff. I can't sift through the bumper stickers on face book now without running into it.
Heh, 'cause welfare = socialism, and McCain would have successfully cut every possible government measure for equality of individual power from the budget (and that it would be a good thing if he tried)... :roll: Obama could have worded it better, but the idea that McCain has no interest or involvement in wealth redistribution is just silly.

Moo wrote:
cerbie wrote:Moo seemed to me to be pretty much asking, "why is it important when you guys get somebody new and different running your government, even to people elsewhere in the world?"
I know we've moved way on but just for the record, this is not at all what I was saying/asking. I was responding to Gunfingers' sarcasm.
Ah, yeah, I see most of Gunfingers' posts as trolling attempts, even though it appears they aren't intentionally so. Without the use of a quote, I probably skipped over it.

Moo wrote:I don't know whether it has any influence on any of the comments on here but for the sake of clarity I'll just mention that there has been some discussion here regarding the black / mixed race thing. Some people feel it's inaccurate to describe him as black, and even disrespectful to his white family, and especially to other mixed race people. Of which there are many in the UK. That may be where some wires are being crossed.

This post: no opinion, only reporting what's been going on in talk radio.
It is inaccurate from that perspective; but accurate based on how racism is practiced, here (which is what makes it important). We still have racism, but it's usually expressed behind closed doors, or tends to be sufficiently veiled (IE, it's obvious to you, but the behavior is legally not opaquely racist). Racism is pretty much defined by being prejudicial. Prejudice generally involves forming a conclusion first, and justification later. From that context, he's black. If you are to experience racism directed towards you, it won't matter if you're mixed Indian, Russian, and Brazilian, or descended directly from slaves brought over from Africa.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:18 pm UTC

Okita wrote:I for one welcome our first ever in the history of the United States of America, an unprecedented event.

That's right, I'm talking about what signifies as a big change for the world.

Our first Hawaiian President.

McCain would have been our first Panamanian President. ;)

But anyway, I started the night at a big invite-only party in DC (largely Obama voters, but definitely some McCain ones, as well) until about 10, not really paying attention to the results. I then made my way to my regular bar, about a five minute walk from where I was one of maybe two dozen people in the place watching on a bunch of smallish TVs. The feeling in there was just really fantastic (as was to be expected in the 93% for Obama District). At the point I got there, Obama was holding strong with 207 Votes to McCain's 100-something with Virginia (my home) still uncalled. A little before 11, I was reading through the local tweets on Twinkle and saw that someone posted that Fox News had called Virginia for Obama. I yelled it out and everyone started cheering (since Fox calling anything for Obama means it's essentially guarenteed). A short while later, just after the California and Oregon polls closed (both of which EVERYONE knew would be going Obama), CNN called the election for Obama. You could hear the ENTIRE city cheering at that point. Everyone started running out to the street and screaming, and honking horns before heading back in for McCain and Obama's speeches. One of the guys brought some champagne and a bunch of people headed up to U Street (where one of the two real parties was happening - the other being in front of the White House), and I just hung around. The energy in the city was simply amazing.

So yeah, I'm glad he won, and I do genuinely believe he'll do good for the country. He won't be perfect, but no one is, and I don't expect it. Reading my Facebook feed found some interesting quotes, though:

Spoiler:
Kristin is remember Hilter gave good speeches too...

Kristin says there must be more Peggy the Moochers then Joe the Plumbers out there.
Pablo wrote:Nah. People just want change and need something new. That's all.

Stephanie wrote:change? oh yes i would love some actual change...like not to have to give more of my money to people who do not deserve it...

Adam wrote:I voted for Bill Nye the Science Guy

Lauren wrote:im happy to give money to those who need it. kinda like me. im unemployed, injured and uninsured. oh and your uncles still unemployed and collecting government assistance...since when have our taxes gone to lazy people. pretty sure it goes to roads, buildings, trees, schools, parks, paying county employees...hmmm ya

Kristin wrote:I am a county employee... we don't get payed anything. And most of the money doesn't go to those who need it, it goes to blacks and non-American citizens. If you are a hyphenated American, you aren't an American at all.

Pablo wrote:I'm sorry that's what you have to experience. No one in this country is a "real" American. The only true Americans are the Native American Indians and they are still mistreated by the majority. This country was built on immigration and celebrates the diversity of many different countries that have built this great nation. As was obvious by last... Unroll Parchment night, even some of the red states from four years ago are tired of eight years of failed Bush policies. Bush had his chance in 2004 and he screwed it up. McCain, as smart as he is, would have only followed suit. Sarah Palin was a cheap way to gather the women vote and I am truly surprised that many women fell for it.

Stephanie wrote:I am truly suprised that people would vote for him because he is black...thats the same thing as voting for a woman because shes a woman. And I am sorry that only LATIN and BLACK people hyphenate their names, and look they are the minorties so hey lets support them and forget about white people. YOU ARE A JOKE you are so hyprocritical that it isnt ... Unroll Parchmentfunny...oh and Lauren, you dont have anything...so im sorry that i made some wise choices when i was a kid and actually saved my money and invested it in wise places...some people on unemployment dont need it. Oh and dont forget that MY DAD is unemployed, uninsured and I have a disability rating, But I dont get anything for it. And I also work for the county, I dont get shit so give me a break...

Pablo wrote:Hmmm...interesting...anyway...I'm going to stop this conversation right now because, despite our differences, I love Kristin too much and it's not far to be doing this on her wall. Besides, I built my friendship with Kristin based on her personality not her views and I believe that's what makes this world interesting. Stephanie, if you'd like to continue this conversation somewhere else, I welcome the invite. For now, I'm out!

Kristin is disappointed in all of my friends who have voted for Obama.

Kristin is proud for voting for McCain '08!

Kristin is happy to have tomorrow off, even though it may be the most awful day in human history.

THESE ARE REAL PEOPLE!!!

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby SJ Zero » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:27 pm UTC

Bill Nye would have strong science policy, but his foreign policy of yelling "SCIENCE!!!" at world leaders wouldn't go over well.

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby zealo » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:50 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:I'm sorry, but I've spent some time in WA and I've been to a bar that still has a "white side" and a "black side".

what is it called/where is it?
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby 22/7 » Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:22 pm UTC

zealo wrote:
22/7 wrote:I'm sorry, but I've spent some time in WA and I've been to a bar that still has a "white side" and a "black side".
what is it called/where is it?
I don't know the name of the bar, but it's the only one in town. The town is Laverton, WA. It's a mining town in what I believe you'd call the "bush" part of Australia. Don't get too caught up in the details. If my memory serves, it was less than a century ago that it was legal to hunt aboriginal Australians. As in, for sport. People. The point is that if you can't see how it's a big deal for a nonwhite to become President of the US (or an aboriginal Australian to become PM of Australia, or whatever else), it's because you're intentionally blind to the racism in the world, not because you've somehow miraculously been completely sheltered from it.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Mr. Beck » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:26 pm UTC

zealo wrote:
Dream wrote:
zealo wrote:what exactly makes him more black than white?

That for the purposes of discrimination and racial prejudice, he's black enough.

according to who? the american public?

Yes. We actually had this discussion is sociology class yesterday: It wouldn't matter if he claimed himself as White. It wouldn't matter if he had never experienced any kind of Racism. The status of Black would still have been ascribed to Obama.

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby ameretrifle » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:47 pm UTC

And I thought he'd said that he considers himself black? So where's the dispute on that? The first multiracial president is a great thing too.

It would be nice if it didn't mean anything, if it were just a matter of course-- "Of course it could happen, what are you getting worked up over?". In the future, hopefully it won't mean anything. Right now, the first time it's happened, it does, and I'm not going to apologize for being happy we've reached that milestone. That's all I meant to say.

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Vellyr » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:37 pm UTC

Having voted for McCain all I can say is that I have hope...hope that Obama fulfills his campaign promises and that it actually pans out the way the liberals paint it. I could put up with a slightly pushy government if it really did everything it said it would with my money. I have my doubts though.

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Lumpy » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:53 pm UTC

Obama wins in North Carolina. 364 electoral votes. He'll be having a press conference tomorrow. Today he gets briefed on all the secret intelligence like spy satellite photos.

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Kain » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:08 am UTC

the top secret stuff probably isnt given to them until they enter the oval office, unless it is something that is vital for them to know in the near term. Ie, if they had proof that an asteroid was going to obliterate the earth soon, he would probably be informed, but I doubt they are going to waste his time giving him info of any UFO conspiracy theories or what have you, lol
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Solt » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:26 am UTC

Kain wrote:the top secret stuff probably isnt given to them until they enter the oval office, unless it is something that is vital for them to know in the near term. Ie, if they had proof that an asteroid was going to obliterate the earth soon, he would probably be informed, but I doubt they are going to waste his time giving him info of any UFO conspiracy theories or what have you, lol


No, they are definitely getting daily briefings from the intelligence community, the same briefs that the current president gets. It would suck if on day one the president had to start from square one. That wouldn't be a smooth transition.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Dream » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:32 am UTC

He's probably being shown the real JFK assassination film. Aaaaaaand... it's all over....
/Hicks.

Or, this.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby CrayolaTwo » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:35 am UTC

Oh yeah, Facebook is a wellspring of ignorance and hate right now. Actual quote from a friend's wall:

im pretty sure somewhere in the bible it says when a dark/or yellow skinned man comes to power, we are doomed basically. Hopefully that means its time for Him to come and take us with him.


Not to mention every other person declaring that this is the beginning of socialism, or saying that every time they look at CNN they cry and pray for God to deliver them from this, blah blah blah.

You would think America has never faced a worse problem than electing a thoughtful, intelligent, rational man to the presidency.

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Intercept » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:38 am UTC

Lumpy wrote:Obama wins in North Carolina. 364 electoral votes. He'll be having a press conference tomorrow. Today he gets briefed on all the secret intelligence like spy satellite photos.


2/3rds. Goddamn, even I didn't expect him to do that well. God Bless America.

Edit: Thanks, I've wanted to do that like ten times now.
Last edited by Intercept on Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:15 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Lumpy » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:40 am UTC

The same way with italics, but with an "s" inside the brackets, standing for slashing out the comment. The popular vote margin is at 6.3%. The 2004 margin was 2.5%. The 1996 margin was 8.5%. The previous election with a similar margin (7.5%) was Roosevelt versus Dewey in 1944.

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Jesse » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:58 am UTC

Otherwise known as the strike through button.

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby btilly » Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:53 am UTC

22/7 wrote:I'm actually rather glad that that scenario didn't happen, as I'm tired of being abroad and hearing "of course, you guys didn't actually elect Bush anyway..." Yes, some reform needs to take place, but I don't want presidents who are accused of not being the choice of the people or whatever other nonsense will get spewed about it.

Sadly that is not nonsense. To name one issue, had deliberate manipulation of election machinery not caused black precincts to spoil ballots at far higher rates than white precincts, Bush would have lost in both 2000 and 2004. In 2004 alone, over 1 million black votes were not counted that should have been.

I'm glad that Obama won. In my eyes he is the first legitimate president that I have had since Bill Clinton.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Kain » Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:17 am UTC

btilly wrote:
22/7 wrote:I'm actually rather glad that that scenario didn't happen, as I'm tired of being abroad and hearing "of course, you guys didn't actually elect Bush anyway..." Yes, some reform needs to take place, but I don't want presidents who are accused of not being the choice of the people or whatever other nonsense will get spewed about it.

Sadly that is not nonsense. To name one issue, had deliberate manipulation of election machinery not caused black precincts to spoil ballots at far higher rates than white precincts, Bush would have lost in both 2000 and 2004. In 2004 alone, over 1 million black votes were not counted that should have been.

I'm glad that Obama won. In my eyes he is the first legitimate president that I have had since Bill Clinton.


While I will agree with you about the 2000 election being rather... suspect (I hail from Miami, where the RNC paid people to fly down and disrupt the vote recount), I am sad to say that I feel the 2004 election was legitimately won by Bush. Which is why I am so happy that Obama won.

On a side note, if you win the second election fairly, but cheated yourself into the position in the first election, should that second election's results be considered unsuspect?
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Belial
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Belial » Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:19 am UTC

I am sad to say that I feel the 2004 election was legitimately won by Bush.


It's nice to have feelings, I suppose.

But it totally wasn't.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Kain » Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:26 am UTC

Well, I don't know about the rest of the nation (I was a little to upset that he had won again to read the news for a bit after that), but I know that his win in Florida was valid, at least. Which saddens me, but doesnt surprise me: we did after all just pass Amendment 2...

Anyways, Florida kinda sorta redeemed itself some by voting for Obama, in my opinion.
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btilly
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby btilly » Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:46 am UTC

Kain wrote:
btilly wrote:
22/7 wrote:I'm actually rather glad that that scenario didn't happen, as I'm tired of being abroad and hearing "of course, you guys didn't actually elect Bush anyway..." Yes, some reform needs to take place, but I don't want presidents who are accused of not being the choice of the people or whatever other nonsense will get spewed about it.

Sadly that is not nonsense. To name one issue, had deliberate manipulation of election machinery not caused black precincts to spoil ballots at far higher rates than white precincts, Bush would have lost in both 2000 and 2004. In 2004 alone, over 1 million black votes were not counted that should have been.

I'm glad that Obama won. In my eyes he is the first legitimate president that I have had since Bill Clinton.

While I will agree with you about the 2000 election being rather... suspect (I hail from Miami, where the RNC paid people to fly down and disrupt the vote recount), I am sad to say that I feel the 2004 election was legitimately won by Bush. Which is why I am so happy that Obama won.

Are you familiar with the deliberate manipulation of election machinery that I am talking about?

Are you aware that a group of statisticians compared exit polls to tallied numbers in Ohio and concluded that it is statistically impossible that they were counted fairly?

Are you aware that access to polling places varied widely through the state? In particular if you lived in a Democratic urban area, lines to get into the polls went until midnight, while Republican areas had no problems. And anyone who walked away from the line, didn't get to vote.

Are you aware that the elections commissioner for Ohio who was responsible for these things was also Bush's campaign chairman? Or that he had publicly promised to deliver Ohio to Bush?

These are some of the reasons why I believe that your feelings are wrong.
Kain wrote:On a side note, if you win the second election fairly, but cheated yourself into the position in the first election, should that second election's results be considered unsuspect?

If you cheated your way into the first election, I would say that the default assumption is that the second one was unlikely to be fair either.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Kain » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:04 am UTC

btilly, no, I was not aware about Ohio. As I stated, I was too upset that Bush had won Florida to watch the news after I heard that. Doesn't surprise me though.

Yeah, I agree with you that if you cheated your way in to the position, it casts doubts as to wether your reelection was legit.
Even assuming it was completely and undoubtedly won legitimately, I would have reservations about the results, because the positition of being an incumbent can have a positive effect on your chances, and the position should not have been had in the first place.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Cooley » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:26 am UTC

Philosophically, is anything statistically impossible?

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clintonius
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby clintonius » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:27 am UTC

That's debatable. But statistically, things can be statistically impossible. And mind that we're talking statistics.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby stapleface » Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:30 am UTC

only if nobody is around to hear it

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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Jauss » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:42 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:
Moo wrote:I don't know whether it has any influence on any of the comments on here but for the sake of clarity I'll just mention that there has been some discussion here regarding the black / mixed race thing. Some people feel it's inaccurate to describe him as black, and even disrespectful to his white family, and especially to other mixed race people. Of which there are many in the UK. That may be where some wires are being crossed.

This post: no opinion, only reporting what's been going on in talk radio.

I think, socialogically, it harkens back to when it was a legal matter: If you had any black blood in you, you were legally black. As such, mixed folks ended up grouping with blacks, and that's where they ended up being accepted.

*Nods* The whole One Drop Rule. They were classified as black whether they identified that way or not for a long time (and discriminated against "appropriately") so you could argue they are/were "functionally black".

Interestingly, it seems as if that rule has been internalized (not to the 1/32nd or 1/16th or 1/8th part anymore, but sometimes to the 1/4th and definitely for 1/2) and it has became something of a reversal, where often it is black people telling mixed people they are black even if they don't identify that way, e.g., Tiger Woods, etc. (I remember having an argument about this with an aunt when I was a teenager. She was angry that I didn't consider myself just black. For the record, at least 3 of my grandparents were significant mixes of various races, so I'm like, at least 3rd generation mutt. Amusingly, it only fully sunk in a few months ago that my dad isn't black at all because, while Jamaican, his ancestry is European and Indian (dot.) I guess the cultural space he takes up kinda feels like he is. But that's a tangent for another time.
For one thing, as it has been said, "he's black cos he doesn't look white." However, even though you can draw that distinction, the reverse is less likely to hold true: It's harder to separate out mixed folks from black folks.

It often depends on how biracial folks present. Skin color, hair texture, facial features. If they look black* they often identify as black (or biracial black) and are classified as black by others. If they have light skin, straight or wavy hair, and/or have more Caucasian looking features then identities and classifications tend to be more varied. For instance, I believe all of the following identify as biracial/multiracial and not black:
Spoiler:
Jennifer Beals
Image
Slash
Image
Mariah Carey
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Derek Jeter
Image

Whereas the hotness which is Boris Kodjoe (half Ghanaian, half German), does.
Spoiler:
Image

So does Obama. (I personally think of him as being black and biracial at the same time.)

*A lot of (most?) black Americans have some white, latino, or native blood in them somewhere along the line, so the American notions of what looks black is probably different than it might be in other countries.
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Re: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner

Postby Lycur » Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:08 am UTC

On the subject of partially-black people being identified as entirely black, I asked a few Carribean and African friends what people in those countries typically identified (half white) Bob Marley's ethnicity as and, in as much as it was given any thought, the answer seemed to be universally black Jamacian. However, my sample witnesses are from a very small and highly non-typical group, so take the result with a boulder of salt.


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