It starts with mannoths..

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It starts with mannoths..

Postby MergeNine » Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:27 pm UTC

http://science.slashdot.org/science/08/ ... 7231.shtml

..before you know it we'll be up to our asses in raptors :P
Last edited by RealGrouchy on Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:45 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: "fixed" spelling of "mamoths"

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby 22/7 » Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:34 pm UTC

I heard about this on NPR this morning (or yesterday?) and that was pretty much my first thought, too.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby felltir » Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:39 pm UTC

Cool.

No linking under 5 posts, though.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby kinigget » Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:46 pm UTC

I noticed that in the comments one guy was advocating bringing back Dire Wolves and Smilodons. I think that we may have start some new phobias my friends.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Jessica » Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:51 pm UTC

That's great, it starts with an earthquake, birds and snakes,
an aeroplane - Lenny Bruce is not afraid.
Eye of a hurricane, listen to yourself churn,
world serves its own needs, dummy serve your own needs.
Feed it off an aux speak, grunt, no, strength,
The ladder starts to clatter with fear fight down height.
Wire in a fire, representing seven games, a government for hire and a combat site.
Left of west and coming in a hurry with the furies breathing down your neck.
Team by team reporters baffled, trumped, tethered cropped.
Look at that low playing!
Fine, then.
Uh oh, overflow, population, common food, but it'll do.
Save yourself, serve yourself. World serves its own needs, listen to your heart bleed dummy with the rapture and the revered and the right - right.
You vitriolic, patriotic, slam, fight, bright light, feeling pretty psyched.

It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.

Six o'clock - TV hour. Don't get caught in foreign towers.
Slash and burn, return, listen to yourself churn.
Locking in, uniforming, book burning, blood letting.
Every motive escalate. Automotive incinerate.
Light a candle, light a votive. Step down, step down.
Watch your heel crush, crushed. Uh-oh, this means no fear cavalier.
Renegade steer clear! A tournament, a tournament, a tournament of lies.
Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives and I decline.

It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it. (It's time I had some time alone)
It's the end of the world as we know it (It's time I had some time alone) and I feel fine.
(I feel fine)

It's the end of the world as we know it. (It's time I had some time alone)
It's the end of the world as we know it. (It's time I had some time alone)
It's the end of the world as we know it (It's time I had some time alone) and I feel fine.

The other night I dreamt of knives, continental drift divide. Mountains sit in a line
Leonard Bernstein. Leonid Brezhnev. Lenny Bruce and Lester Bangs.
Birthday party, cheesecake, jelly bean, boom!
You symbiotic, patriotic, slam book neck, right? Right.

It's the end of the world as we know it. (It's time I had some time alone)
It's the end of the world as we know it. (It's time I had some time alone)
It's the end of the world as we know it (It's time I had some time alone) and I feel fine.

It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it (It's time I had some time alone) and I feel fine.

It's the end of the world as we know it. (It's time I had some time alone)
It's the end of the world as we know it. (It's time I had some time alone)
It's the end of the world as we know it (It's time I had some time alone) and I feel fine.

It's the end of the world as we know it. (It's time I had some time alone)
It's the end of the world as we know it. (It's time I had some time alone)
It's the end of the world as we know it (It's time I had some time alone) and I feel fine...
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Belial » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:03 pm UTC

Given their size, wouldn't one raptor be sufficient to be up to one's ass in raptor?
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby 22/7 » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:04 pm UTC

Well, if you'd take just one minute to stand up from your damn tea party every once in awhile maybe we'd be able to find out. But nooooo...
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby mohini » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:26 pm UTC

The article clearly states that DNA doesn't last more than 60,000 years. As raptors were around what, 65,000,000 years ago, I guss that Jurassic Park will remain sci fi. Unless we go for the far more fantastic idea of a dinotopia.

I would like to state, for the record, that I have always (and by always I mean the few months I've been a member of this forum) imagined Belial to be the Dinatopian Ambassador to Great Britain. I realize that only a human could possibly wear a hat like that, but that's what I think whenever I see him. "The Dinatopian Ambassador...."

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Gunfingers » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:49 pm UTC

Belial wrote:Given their size, wouldn't one raptor be sufficient to be up to one's ass in raptor?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Vraptor-scale.svg

If you count the upright tail, then yes. Otherwise you'd need at least two.

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Indon » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:57 pm UTC

Unless we're referring to the Utahraptor.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby 22/7 » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:59 pm UTC

Let's face it. No one is ever talking about the Utahraptor.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Belial » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:03 pm UTC

Actually, regardless of what they call it (and velociraptor is such a cooler name), they're nearly always talking about the raptors depicted in Jurassic Park. Which were basically Utahraptors. The creators just didn't know it.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Indon » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:09 pm UTC

Indeed. We're almost always talking about the Utahraptor.

Which is good, because if they existed, they would be a far more dire danger to humanity than the actual velociraptor. It's just lucky for all of us that they don't exist.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Belial » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:13 pm UTC

sip sip

Indeed. Quite.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Woofsie » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:21 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:
If you count the upright tail, then yes.


:shock:

That would be... uncomfortable.

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Gunfingers » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:31 pm UTC

I have a theory that size isn't what makes *raptors dangerous. No matter what type of raptor, it'll fuck your shit up. Velociraptors just happen to have the advantage of being a much smaller target.

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Indon » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:38 pm UTC

Ah, but a human-sized raptor could much more readily demonstrate the ability to manipulate human tools, if they were intelligent enough. As in Jurassic Park, they could open doors which a smaller animal would at least have much more difficulty opening.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Gunfingers » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:55 pm UTC

Their ability to impersonate human-level speech, and possibly human mannerisms and headgear, could further complicate things. A tiny feathery raptor will be obvious, even if it speaks and wears clothing. But a man-sized one? 'Tis a scary thought indeed.

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Indon » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:08 pm UTC

I don't seriously believe that a raptor could effectively masquerade as a human being. They have a significantly distinct body structure, and while their tool manipulation ability might be impressive, it would take truly exceptional dexterity to do something such as, say, sipping from a teacup.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Belial » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:15 pm UTC

Sip sip.

Indeed. Quite.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Jack Saladin » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:42 pm UTC

How come no ones resurrected the moa yet? C'mon, they died out like a few hundred years ago. That's like yesterday compared to all the other cool extinct animals. Plus, they're super giant fucking birds. We could ride them. Think about it, guys. Think about it.

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Indon » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:43 pm UTC

We could just genetically engineer ostritches.

Or were the Moa fliers?
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby 22/7 » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:43 pm UTC

What did they eat?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Jack Saladin » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:49 pm UTC

Indon wrote:We could just genetically engineer ostritches.

... Why would we bother doing that when we have all these moa bones and shit lying around? I was serious about the "few hundred years" thing, they only just died. House sized* birds, guys. THINK ABOUT IT.

And no, they weren't fliers. Though, we also had giant eagles that were big enough to pick up people and carry them away. I, uh, I think we should skip bringing those ones back.

The other advantage to the moa is that it might actually be possible to collect enough genetic material to create a breeding population. Might. On the other hand, there's no way a cloned mammoth would ever be anything other than a sideshow - you're simply never going to recover the diversity to bring the species itself properly back to life.

*House sized in that they could probably look onto your roof if you lived in a single story house. They weren't like, house sized all the way round or anything.

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Jebobek » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:54 pm UTC

Which brings us back to topic: If there is no scientific use we can find for this down the line, then we should not bother. Which brings me back off topic: But it would be soo COOOL!!
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby 22/7 » Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:17 pm UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:
Indon wrote:We could just genetically engineer ostritches.

... Why would we bother doing that when we have all these moa bones and shit lying around? I was serious about the "few hundred years" thing, they only just died. House sized* birds, guys. THINK ABOUT IT.

And no, they weren't fliers. Though, we also had giant eagles that were big enough to pick up people and carry them away. I, uh, I think we should skip bringing those ones back.

The other advantage to the moa is that it might actually be possible to collect enough genetic material to create a breeding population. Might. On the other hand, there's no way a cloned mammoth would ever be anything other than a sideshow - you're simply never going to recover the diversity to bring the species itself properly back to life.

*House sized in that they could probably look onto your roof if you lived in a single story house. They weren't like, house sized all the way round or anything.
Not really direct at Saladin, but at anyone who knows, how many would be needed to theoretically bring the species back?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby clintonius » Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:19 pm UTC

Seven.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Jack Saladin » Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:25 pm UTC

I think it would depend on the variety within that number (a couple hundred cousins probably wouldn't be a good start, for example). Definitely hundreds, possibly more, I don't really know.

Of course it's unknown whether there's complete enough DNA available to create even one specimen capable of reproducing.

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby The Reaper » Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:04 am UTC

I want a pet dire wolf... Maybe I can mix the genes with a modern dog, to get some intelligence and domesticability along with it.... That would be freakin awesome.

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby peevo » Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:18 am UTC

The Reaper wrote:I want a pet dire wolf... Maybe I can mix the genes with a modern dog, to get some intelligence and domesticability along with it.... That would be freakin awesome.

You need to be a 7th level druid for a dire wolf, sadly.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Megatriorchis » Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:33 am UTC

They should bring back giant bugs.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby clintonius » Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:44 am UTC

FUCK. YOU.

That is a very, very bad idea.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Jack Saladin » Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:47 am UTC

They should bring back historical figures.

I mean, Lenin is lying right there. Mays as well use him for something.

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby wisty » Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:16 am UTC

OK, let's not recreate the Moa. It's a house sized bird. A predatory house sized bird. It would eat raptors for supper.

edit, that's wrong, the Moa were vegetarian. I'm sure there was some large predatory extinct bird in NZ, but I guess it wasn't the Moa.

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby smw543 » Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:42 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:They should bring back historical figures.

I mean, Lenin is lying right there. Mays as well use him for something.
How about Einstein? I'm pretty sure they still have his preserved brain somewhere, though the most recent reference to its location I can find was from 2005. As for Lenin, I know that they did the same thing with him (cut out his brain to study it), but I don't know if they preserved it. (Not that you need the brain to clone someone; it's just interesting.)

As for the required number of specimens needed for a viable gene pool, I think it also varies depending on how complex the animal's DNA is (i.e.: total number of genes within the genome and how many are used for different types of functions.) Also important are breeding habits, monogamous animals require a larger population than *polyamorous ones.

*Firefox doesn't recognize the word polyamorous. Clearly, **they have gotten to them.

**I don't know...the Pope?
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Megatriorchis » Sat Nov 22, 2008 4:30 am UTC

wisty wrote:OK, let's not recreate the Moa. It's a house sized bird. A predatory house sized bird. It would eat raptors for supper.

edit, that's wrong, the Moa were vegetarian. I'm sure there was some large predatory extinct bird in NZ, but I guess it wasn't the Moa.

We could domesticate them and use them for battle and for transport. They'll be like Indian elephants, except taller and faster.

And yes, there was a large predatory bird in NZ. It was a giant eagle.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Jack Saladin » Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:29 am UTC

smw543 wrote:
Jack Saladin wrote:They should bring back historical figures.

I mean, Lenin is lying right there. Mays as well use him for something.
How about Einstein?

They should do a whole bunch and then make a reality TV show out of them growing up together.

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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby natraj » Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:34 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:They should do a whole bunch and then make a reality TV show out of them growing up together.


That thought makes me miss Clone High.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby Belial » Sat Nov 22, 2008 5:48 am UTC

Megatriorchis wrote:
wisty wrote:OK, let's not recreate the Moa. It's a house sized bird. A predatory house sized bird. It would eat raptors for supper.

edit, that's wrong, the Moa were vegetarian. I'm sure there was some large predatory extinct bird in NZ, but I guess it wasn't the Moa.

We could domesticate them and use them for battle and for transport. They'll be like Indian elephants, except taller and faster.

And yes, there was a large predatory bird in NZ. It was a giant eagle.


It was a giant eagle that killed its prey by pinning their pelvis with one talon and bashing their brains in with the other. They struck with a force roughly equivalent to a cinder block falling on you from 75 feet up. And they only died because we killed their favorite prey: the moa.

I demand that we bring these things back immediately. They sound badass.
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Re: It starts with mamoths..

Postby pollywog » Sat Nov 22, 2008 6:46 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:I think it would depend on the variety within that number (a couple hundred cousins probably wouldn't be a good start, for example). Definitely hundreds, possibly more, I don't really know.

Of course it's unknown whether there's complete enough DNA available to create even one specimen capable of reproducing.
I've heard of the 50/500 rule. 50 individuals to create a species that will survive in the short term (few dozen generations), 500 to keep it going until it becomes extinct through other means.

And yes, Haast's eagles plz. Can you imagine how awesome that would be?

Jack Saladin wrote:We could ride them. Think about it, guys. Think about it.
I already have. So many times. There's a picture I've seen somewhere, I think an album cover, of a few Maori riding moa through a swamp, leading humanoid tuatara with a rope tied around their necks.
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