More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

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More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Chfan » Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:31 pm UTC

http://www.slate.com/id/2206033/?gt1=38001

Spoiler:
If you want to stop Barack Obama from becoming president, there's still time. But you have to act right now. Go to RallyCongress.com, and you can be the 126,000th-odd American to demand "proof of citizenship" from the president-elect. Follow the instructions at WeMustBeHeard.com, and you can join a sit-in outside the Supreme Court of the United States, starting at 8 a.m. Friday, as the justices decide whether to consider a suit filed by a professional poker player that challenges the presidential eligibility of Obama, John McCain, and Socialist Workers candidate Roger Calero.

Can't make it to Washington, D.C.? Too bad—you missed your chance to FedEx a letter to the justices for only $10, sponsored by the venerable right-wing site (and Bruce Schneier column outlet) WorldNetDaily. "There is grave, widespread and rapidly growing concern throughout the American public," writes WND Editor Joseph Farah, "that this constitutional requirement is being overlooked and enforcement neglected by state and federal election authorities."

Widespread? Rapidly growing? Who are these people? They're engaging in a new American political tradition: the quadrennial early-winter attempt to overturn presidential results by any means necessary.

It started, as all election madness seemed to, in 2000. As soon as it became clear that Al Gore had won the popular vote but might lose Florida's electoral votes, some liberal writers and activists argued for a constitutional path to victory: convince three Electoral College voters pledged to George W. Bush to switch their votes to Gore. The challenges lasted past the December Electoral College vote and into the January 2001 certification ceremony before a joint session of Congress, when members of the Congressional Black Caucus objected to the vote. They got nowhere because they needed a sponsor from the Senate to make it official. In 2005—after Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 made the 2001 protest famous—Sen. Barbara Boxer of California objected to the Ohio vote count, and the chambers divided for debate. Bush won anyway.

If you thought Barack Obama's clear rout over John McCain meant we'd be spared a third Electoral College melodrama—well, think again. This time, the argument is not over votes. It's over Obama's citizenship.

Thanks to the increased simplicity of online organizing and coverage in talk radio and fringe political Web sites, the citizenship crusaders have grown numerous enough to irritate people at every level of the presidential vote certification process. According to the Christian Science Monitor, the people questioning Obama's citizenship are hitting electors as hard as the Gore activists ever did. Go to AmericaMustKnow.com, and you, too, can contact one of the 538 electors at his or her home address after you read up on the latest doomed lawsuit.

How did the citizenship rumor get started? Ironically, it began when the Obama campaign tried to debunk some other conspiracies. After Obama locked up the nomination in early June, low-level talk radio and blog chatter peddled rumors that Obama's real middle name was Muhammad, that his father was not really Barack Obama, and that he was not really born in Hawaii. The campaign released a facsimile of Obama's certificate of live birth. Requested from the state in 2007, the certificate reported that Obama was, indeed, born in Honolulu at 7:24 p.m. on Aug. 4, 1961.

The certificate was a bullet that didn't put down the horse. Why, skeptics asked, release a new form from Hawaii instead of the original paper that Obama's parents got in 1961—the one that Obama found in a box of his dad's knickknacks in Dreams From My Father? They quickly came up with an explanation: The certificate was forged. Anonymous digital image experts with handles like Techdude and Polarik sprung from the woodwork to prove (shades of Rathergate!) that pixels, spacing, and indentation on the form indicated that the Obama campaign had created the certificate with Adobe Photoshop. The state of Hawaii's official statement that the certificate was legitimate didn't make a dent—after all, who is Registrar of Vital Statistics Alvin Onaka to argue with Techdude?

This "forgery" became an article of faith in the Obama conspiracy community. When a Hillary Clinton supporter found a birth announcement for Obama from the Aug. 13, 1961, edition of the Honolulu Advertiser, the theorists were unbowed: After all, the Obama family could have phoned that in from Kenya. When Pennsylvania lawyer Philip J. Berg filed the first birth-related injunction against Obama this August, asking that Obama be ruled "ineligible to run for United States Office of the President," he alleged that the certificate had been proved a forgery by the "extensive Forensic testing" of anonymous experts and claimed that Obama's campaign had simply inserted his name over that of his half-sister, Maya. That would have been quite a trick, as Maya Soetoro-Ng was actually born in Indonesia.

Berg's involvement in the movement—and his self-promotion, which has included a radio interview with Michael Savage and a full-page ad in the Washington Times—is probably a net loss for all concerned. Berg's last big lawsuits were filed in 2003 and 2004 on behalf of 9/11 skeptics that sought to uncover the Bush administration's complicity in the attacks. "There's been many fires in many buildings before, and even after," Berg said in a 2007 interview. "Concrete and steel buildings do not fall down from fires." Berg did not respond to my request for an interview, but if you call his office, you can press "2" for more information on "the 9/11 case."

None of that stopped Berg from stoking the conspiracy theorists. On Oct. 16, an Anabaptist minister named Ron McRae called Sarah Hussein Obama, the president-elect's 86-year-old paternal step-grandmother, at her home in Kenya. Two translators were on the line when McRae asked if the elder Obama was "present" when the president-elect was born. One of the translators says "yes." McRae contacted Berg and gave him a partial transcript of the call with a signed affidavit. He opted not to include the rest of the call, in which he asks the question more directly—"Was he born in Mombassa?"—and the translators, finally understanding him, tell him repeatedly that the president-elect was born in Hawaii.

The Hawaiian documentation, the 1961 newspaper announcement, the phony evidence from Sarah Obama—all of that aside, the idea that Obama wasn't born in Honolulu goes against everything we know about his rather well-documented life. Barack Obama Sr. came to America as part of a 1959 program for Kenyan students—he did not return home until 1965, years after he left his wife and son. Ann Dunham was three months pregnant when she married Obama Sr. and 18 years old when she gave birth. There is no record of Dunham ever traveling to Kenya, much less the year after the Mau Mau rebellion ended, when she was pregnant and when she had no disposable income to speak of. "Ann's mother would have gone ballistic if her daughter had even mentioned traveling to Kenya in the final stages of pregnancy," says David Mendell, author of the biography Obama: From Promise to Power.

Reached by phone, Ron McRae doesn't claim to know when or how Dunham got to Kenya, only that she gave birth in a Third World country because "she didn't want to take a chance on that flight back" and that "everyone in Kenya" knows this. If so, they've kept it a pretty solid secret from the international reporters who've visited the country since Obama rose to prominence. But the story is good enough for Gary Kreep, the conservative head of the United States Justice Foundation, who filed suit against Obama on behalf of Alan Keyes, the unstoppable fringe candidate who was on the ballot in California on the American Independent Party ticket. "If he's got nothing to hide," says Kreep, "why not give us access?"

That's the same argument made by Bob Schultz, the founder of the paleoconservative We the People Foundation for Constitutional Education. On Monday and Wednesday, Schultz gave the Obama conspiracy its biggest burst of attention—at least since Rush Limbaugh speculated that this was the real reason Obama visited his dying grandmother—by purchasing full-page ads in the Chicago Tribune. In the "open letters" to Obama, Schultz asserts that Obama's certificate of live birth is "forged," that his "grandmother is record[ed] on tape saying she attended your birth in Kenya," and that Obama would have lost his citizenship anyway when Ann Dunham married her second, Indonesian husband, Lolo Soetoro. (Lou Dobbs would be delighted to discover that the 14th Amendment can be nullified so easily.)

Schultz has asked Obama to allow forensic investigators to inspect Obama's files in Hawaii's Department of State. "Have one guy go in and do his thing," explains Schultz. "Have another guy go in, do his thing, put the certificate back in the envelope. These are scientists. They should all come to the same conclusion."

If Obama doesn't submit to the investigation—and so far, Obama and Democratic National Committee lawyers have ignored or waited for dismissal of the lawsuits and complaints—Schultz will go ahead and send packages of the key anti-Obama complaints to every Electoral College voter. "They're going to be warned that if they go ahead and cast their votes for Mr. Obama, then they've committed treason to the Constitution," Schultz told me on Wednesday.

Schultz, like every Obama-citizenship skeptic, is watching the Supreme Court on Friday and Monday to see whether it will decide to hear Leo Donofrio's lawsuit. "They should at least delay the Electoral College vote," suggests Schultz. More likely, the justices will consider the lawsuit—which claims that Obama Sr. made his son a dual citizen of the British Empire and thus ineligible for the presidency—frivolous, decide that Donofrio lacked the standing to sue Obama anyway, and move on.

How much further will the fight to de-certify Obama go? It won't stop if the Electoral College votes for Obama, as the skeptics will try to get a congressman or senator to officially challenge the result. Rep. Chris Cannon of Utah was willing to believe that Bill Ayers wrote Dreams From My Father, so the skeptics might have a chance.

And if every vote certification goes off without a hitch and Obama is inaugurated on Jan. 20? Gary Kreep is ready for that.

"When Obama starts signing executive orders and legislation," Kreep says, "I'll be filing lawsuits unless and until he proves he's an American citizen. Some judge, someday, is going to want this proved on the merits. You can run, but you can't hide."


Apparently, they're trying to bring the legitimacy of Obama's birth certificate in again so that he can't become president. Even though it has already been declared legitimate. What irks me is that they think their "forensic inspectors" can do their job better than those in the government.

Also, many of them are 9/11 conspiracy theorists, which tells you what they're like. But the worst part is they think they can stop Obama from becoming president- or if he does, to stop him from signing bills and doing presidential stuff- just by frivolous lawsuits.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby smw543 » Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:55 pm UTC

Actually, the more recent one (about the dual citizenship matter) is almost legitimate. It's true that a dual citizen can't be president, but the only reason he would be a dual citizen is that his father was apparently a British citizen. According to British law, if one of your parents is a British citizen and you are born elsewhere, you get British citizenship in addition to citizenship of wherever you are born. However, U.S. law precludes this; if you want to live in the U.S. and are a dual citizen, you must give up the non-American part (as my roommate, a pre-law major, explained.) Since Obama was born here, and since British law does not supersede U.S. law (at least not on U.S. soil), he was never a dual citizen, so the point is moot. A good effort though, I give him credit for a well-thought-out retarded idea, as opposed to the lazy retarded idea the other douchebags all tried, claiming he was born in Kenya.

Besides, even if he was right, they would just come up with an obscure reason why it doesn't apply; they know if they robbed Obama of his victory, there would be total chaos (and someone would probably hunt down his sorry racist ass.) Worst case scenario: we whip up a last minute amendment to the constitution.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Gunfingers » Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:04 pm UTC

So...what would actually happen if this worked? Would Biden become president-elect? McCain? Would we need a new election?

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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby smw543 » Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:42 pm UTC

Gunfingers wrote:So...what would actually happen if this worked? Would Biden become president-elect? McCain? Would we need a new election?

I don't think it could be Biden; if Obama was ineligible, then he was never legitimately elected, which means Biden wasn't either. That means that McCain technically won every single state and electoral vote. To clarify, the electoral college doesn't actually vote until December 15, so, because all the votes for Obama are invalid, McCain wins. (For example, in Washington D.C., Obama took 93% and McCain took about 7%, Since the votes for Obama were invalidated, McCain would win D.C.'s 3 electoral votes with 7%.)

If it happens, but not until after the 15th, I'm not sure. There's no precedent or law that would apply, so far as I know.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Angua » Sun Dec 07, 2008 5:46 pm UTC

smw543 wrote:Actually, the more recent one (about the dual citizenship matter) is almost legitimate. It's true that a dual citizen can't be president, but the only reason he would be a dual citizen is that his father was apparently a British citizen. According to British law, if one of your parents is a British citizen and you are born elsewhere, you get British citizenship in addition to citizenship of wherever you are born. However, U.S. law precludes this; if you want to live in the U.S. and are a dual citizen, you must give up the non-American part (as my roommate, a pre-law major, explained.) Since Obama was born here, and since British law does not supersede U.S. law (at least not on U.S. soil), he was never a dual citizen, so the point is moot. A good effort though, I give him credit for a well-thought-out retarded idea, as opposed to the lazy retarded idea the other douchebags all tried, claiming he was born in Kenya.

Besides, even if he was right, they would just come up with an obscure reason why it doesn't apply; they know if they robbed Obama of his victory, there would be total chaos (and someone would probably hunt down his sorry racist ass.) Worst case scenario: we whip up a last minute amendment to the constitution.

On the case of dual citizen ship, you only have to give up other citizenships if you naturalise to the US (were not American before but then went there), if say you were born in England with one American parent, you can still claim both citizenships (I have more than one passport, including a US one, so I should know).
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Rysto » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:12 pm UTC

According to British law, if one of your parents is a British citizen and you are born elsewhere, you get British citizenship in addition to citizenship of wherever you are born.

My father is British but I don't have British citizenship. I'm probably eligible for it but I'm by no means obligated to have it.

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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Angua » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:19 pm UTC

Rysto wrote:
According to British law, if one of your parents is a British citizen and you are born elsewhere, you get British citizenship in addition to citizenship of wherever you are born.

My father is British but I don't have British citizenship. I'm probably eligible for it but I'm by no means obligated to have it.
This is also true. Also, British law seems to change, when I was born, even though I was born in England it was easier for me to get an American passport (England wanted four grandparents). I only got my British citizenship a couple of years ago, (not having to give up my US, please note) and my brother who was born in the US has also obtained his British passport recently.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:38 pm UTC

smw543 wrote:
Gunfingers wrote:So...what would actually happen if this worked? Would Biden become president-elect? McCain? Would we need a new election?

I don't think it could be Biden; if Obama was ineligible, then he was never legitimately elected, which means Biden wasn't either. That means that McCain technically won every single state and electoral vote. To clarify, the electoral college doesn't actually vote until December 15, so, because all the votes for Obama are invalid, McCain wins. (For example, in Washington D.C., Obama took 93% and McCain took about 7%, Since the votes for Obama were invalidated, McCain would win D.C.'s 3 electoral votes with 7%.)

If it happens, but not until after the 15th, I'm not sure. There's no precedent or law that would apply, so far as I know.


Why couldn't those electoral voters simply vote for Biden?
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Wiglaf » Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:24 pm UTC

Well, hmm, the 12th amendment applies here. The Presidential ballot is separate from the Vice Presidential ballot for the electors. In all of these cases, assume Obama is ruled an illegal candidate.

Case 1: Obama is removed from office for illegibility upon inauguration (I think this is unlikely...). President Biden, Vice President... Hillary, maybe?

Case 3: Let us say votes for illegal candidates are merely no-votes. All votes for Biden are legal, so he becomes Vice President (hooray, no Sarah Palin). A significant number of Democratic electors are bound to Obama. Here, faithless electors come into play.

Case 3a: About 90 faithless electors turn from Obama to McCain. McCain wins the majority of electors. President McCain, Vice President Biden.

Case 3b: No faithless electors, period. McCain does not win the majority of electors, so it goes to the House of Representatives. Unfortunately, McCain was the only Presidential Candidate to win an electoral vote. The vote de facto goes to him. President McCain, Vice President Biden.

Case 3c: As 3b, except one faithless elector. If Republican, this is most likely for Palin, I will say the Democratic House will vote President McCain, Vice President Biden. If Democrat, probably President Hillary, Vice President Biden. There is a small chance that a faithless elector could go Independant. That's right, fear, for the Ronpaul still might be president.

I think that covers it.

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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Silas » Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:35 am UTC

No, that doesn't cover it. The Twelfth Amendment's separate ballots are the ones cast by the Electors. The main issue, I think, would be whether Obama was determined (God forbid) ineligible before or after the Electoral College met in the several States.

If before, the Democratic Party would (probably hold a convention and) revise its nomination. Then, the legislatures of the states who would otherwise have had at least one electoral vote supporting Obama would issue new instructions to their electors. Whether they would now be instructed to vote Biden/<Clinton?> or <Clinton?>/Biden would be a matter of those states' preference

If after, it'd be tricky. Biden would certainly be elected Vice-President. If Obama's electors foresaw his ineligibility, they would have had at least one of their number vote to elect <Clinton?>; this would clearly put the choice to the House; it would probably go there, even if they did not. Democrats in the House could prevent the election of McCain by boycotting the necessary votes (two-thirds of the states needed) or by denying a majority of the state votes (though I don't think they have the votes to do it).

In that case, on Inauguration Day, under the Twentieth Amendment, Biden would assume the duties of President; if the House didn't resolve the matter, on March 4th, he would become President (XII amendment).
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby JoshuaZ » Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:45 am UTC

Silas wrote:In that case, on Inauguration Day, under the Twentieth Amendment, Biden would assume the duties of President; if the House didn't resolve the matter, on March 4th, he would become President (XII amendment).


And if something happens to Biden we would then get Nancy Pelosi as President. That seems unlikely (ignoring the whole issue that this whole discussion is about an incredibly unlikely possibility). Although there was a brief moment in 2000 where it looked like Dennis Haster might end up as President.

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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby MikeBabaguh » Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:26 pm UTC

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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Shedek » Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:38 pm UTC

So, who thinks it's time for a constitutional amendment removing the 'natural-born citizen' requirement for certain elected offices and replacing it with just citizenship?

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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby 22/7 » Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:41 pm UTC

Shedek wrote:So, who thinks it's time for a constitutional amendment removing the 'natural-born citizen' requirement for certain elected offices and replacing it with just citizenship?
You say "certain elected offices" and it makes it sound (to me) like you mean to remove the restriction from relatively low offices. Is this accurate or are you specifically talking about the Presidency?
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby frezik » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:09 pm UTC

Shedek wrote:So, who thinks it's time for a constitutional amendment removing the 'natural-born citizen' requirement for certain elected offices and replacing it with just citizenship?


That was how it was originally written. I always wondered why the natural-born part was added in the first place. If Schwarzenegger (to use the most obvious current example) wants to run and voters put him into office, why should this not be constitutional?
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Chfan » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:38 pm UTC

I don't see why not. It's not like we'd elect a terrorist president, no matter what the anti-Obama people say.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Shedek » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:49 pm UTC

22/7 wrote:
Shedek wrote:So, who thinks it's time for a constitutional amendment removing the 'natural-born citizen' requirement for certain elected offices and replacing it with just citizenship?
You say "certain elected offices" and it makes it sound (to me) like you mean to remove the restriction from relatively low offices. Is this accurate or are you specifically talking about the Presidency?


I'm talking about all elected offices that hold such a requirement. When I said 'certain elected offices', I was referring to the offices that have that requirement, since not all elected offices do.

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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Intercept » Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:55 pm UTC

I think it's really unnecessary and should be removed. People who are really worried about that aren't going to vote for someone who isn't a natural-born citizen anyway.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby william » Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:35 pm UTC

I'm pretty sure only one elected office has the natural-born citizen requirement.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby 22/7 » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:14 pm UTC

william wrote:I'm pretty sure only one elected office has the natural-born citizen requirement.
That was certainly my impression.
Totally not a hypothetical...

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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Shedek » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:29 pm UTC

Well, at the federal level, I believe that it is only President and Vice President. The Twelfth Amendment makes any person ineligible to be President also ineligible to be Vice President. However, I've always been under the impression that some state governments also required some of their executives to be 'natural-born citizens', including my own, but I've been looking for such language in the Texas Constitution, and I can't find it. I was probably misinformed. :?

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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Роберт » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:42 pm UTC

So, I'm curious about why we can't see the full birth certificate. In 2008, the Obama campaign produced a document showing he was born in the U.S., but the controversy still hasn't died. Obviously, he was born here, so why don't they get the long-form document to show that the birthers are nutty and keep it from going mainstream? Over 50% of those planning to vote in the republican primary don't believe Obama was born in the U.S.

Neil Abercrombie says that he can't show us the birth certificate without consent from Obama, but it exists. Is there something odd on the birth certificate that they are worried about us seeing, or do they just not take birthers seriously enough to realize that the doubt is getting more mainstream?

It's not like it even matters if he was born on U.S. soil anyway, according to Title 8 of the U.S code section 1401, but they say he was and demonstrated it with a document, so it should be settled. The birthers wonder about the full birth certificate, so why not show that? It won't make the fringe happy, but it would keep it from spreading.

Sorry if this was already brought up, did a forum search and this thread seemed the most relevant.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Xeio » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:45 pm UTC

What makes you think proof would quell the birther movement? It already has failed to do so.

Incidentally, what is the "long form" of a birth certificate? I just have a tiny piece of paper...

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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Dark567 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:47 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:So, I'm curious about why we can't see the full birth certificate.
Because it makes the right look nutty. If there is one thing Obama is good at, its campaigning. Allowing the far-right to look crazy only helps his reelection chances.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Роберт » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:49 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:What makes you think proof would quell the birther movement? It already has failed to do so.

Incidentally, what is the "long form" of a birth certificate? I just have a tiny piece of paper...

I wrote:The birthers wonder about the full birth certificate, so why not show that? It won't make the fringe happy, but it would keep it from spreading.


Dark567 wrote:
Роберт wrote:So, I'm curious about why we can't see the full birth certificate.
Because it makes the right look nutty. If there is one thing Obama is good at, its campaigning. Allowing the far-right to look crazy only helps his reelection chances.

That would make logical sense, but I hate to be that cynical. His campaign is intentionally letting nuttiness rage in the fringes to discredit the opposing party? Believable in politics, but I don't like it. Still, the most believable idea I've heard so far.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Xeio » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:53 pm UTC

Again, this "movement" isn't in any way based in fact or reality. They're already spreading misinformation, what makes you think one more lie "he even showed a faked birth certificate!" (or just omitting it altogether) will stop it? If people believe lies... there isn't anything to stop it.

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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Jessica » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:55 pm UTC

I don't know American birth certificates, just so everything is clear.

They may not want to public the president of the united state's personal identification for the public. As in there may be certain identifying numbers on the certificate that really shouldn't be given to everyone in the world, especially when they're a public figure. I know on my new birth certificate (but not my old one) there's a unique pin which allows me to get any other form of real ID anywhere. That might be why they don't want to public the long form one.

And even if they don't think anyone would actually try and steal the president's identity, and don't mind people trying to steal things for forgery purposes, it is akin to asking someone to publish extremely private documents. If anyone else was told they had to photo copy their SIN and publish it online, I'm sure people would object. Most people don't like giving away important parts of their identity.

Just saying's all...
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby nowfocus » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:56 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:That would make logical sense, but I hate to be that cynical. His campaign is intentionally letting nuttiness rage in the fringes to discredit the opposing party? Believable in politics, but I don't like it. Still, the most believable idea I've heard so far.

I think it's more that no evidence will convince these people, and releasing the document will only serve to give them more attention. Don't we already have enough distractions?
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Роберт » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:57 pm UTC

Xeio wrote:Again, this "movement" isn't in any way based in fact or reality. They're already spreading misinformation, what makes you think one more lie "he even showed a faked birth certificate!" (or just omitting it altogether) will stop it? If people believe lies... there isn't anything to stop it.

...are you even listening? I bolded the part where I said outright, showing the full birth certificate will not please the fringe. My point is, the doubt is spreading. Now a majority of those going to vote in the GOP primary believe he was born outside the U.S. It's not just the fringe anymore.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Lazar » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:00 pm UTC

...
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Ulc » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:00 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:That would make logical sense, but I hate to be that cynical. His campaign is intentionally letting nuttiness rage in the fringes to discredit the opposing party? Believable in politics, but I don't like it. Still, the most believable idea I've heard so far.


I'll happily admit that politics aren't the cleanest game around..

But letting other people make themselves look like nutcases ranks fairly low on my "dirt done in politics"-blip-o-meter
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Роберт » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:06 pm UTC

Ulc wrote:
Роберт wrote:That would make logical sense, but I hate to be that cynical. His campaign is intentionally letting nuttiness rage in the fringes to discredit the opposing party? Believable in politics, but I don't like it. Still, the most believable idea I've heard so far.


I'll happily admit that politics aren't the cleanest game around..

But letting other people make themselves look like nutcases ranks fairly low on my "dirt done in politics"-blip-o-meter

I just don't like contributing to "us vs them" partisanship. I agree that it's not going out of your way to make people look bad so much as letting people look bad on their own, but I would hope (naively) that Obama wouldn't intentionally help most republicans look like nut-cases to most democrats. They already do anyway.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Xeio » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:12 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:I don't know American birth certificates, just so everything is clear.

They may not want to public the president of the united state's personal identification for the public. As in there may be certain identifying numbers on the certificate that really shouldn't be given to everyone in the world, especially when they're a public figure. I know on my new birth certificate (but not my old one) there's a unique pin which allows me to get any other form of real ID anywhere. That might be why they don't want to public the long form one.

And even if they don't think anyone would actually try and steal the president's identity, and don't mind people trying to steal things for forgery purposes, it is akin to asking someone to publish extremely private documents. If anyone else was told they had to photo copy their SIN and publish it online, I'm sure people would object. Most people don't like giving away important parts of their identity.

Just saying's all...
Maybe, but I'm thinking unlikely. Granted, they vary by state (I didn't even realize this till I needed it for a job on campus in another state, and got a comment like "That's it?"), but all mine has is my name, my parent's names, date, and I think location. Definitely no magic number (closest would probably be my social security card, which is seperate). And they could of course censor that part anyway (though I'm sure there'd be complaints about that too).

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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby sje46 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:18 pm UTC

smw543 wrote:Actually, the more recent one (about the dual citizenship matter) is almost legitimate. It's true that a dual citizen can't be president, but the only reason he would be a dual citizen is that his father was apparently a British citizen. According to British law, if one of your parents is a British citizen and you are born elsewhere, you get British citizenship in addition to citizenship of wherever you are born. However, U.S. law precludes this; if you want to live in the U.S. and are a dual citizen, you must give up the non-American part (as my roommate, a pre-law major, explained.) Since Obama was born here, and since British law does not supersede U.S. law (at least not on U.S. soil), he was never a dual citizen, so the point is moot. A good effort though, I give him credit for a well-thought-out retarded idea, as opposed to the lazy retarded idea the other douchebags all tried, claiming he was born in Kenya.
I'm not knowledgeable about these kinds of things, however my friend was born in Canada and he told me that he had dual citizenship as a kid, but when you turn 18, you have to make a decision (he, obviously, chose to be American).

I could have misunderstood him. Either way, Obama is definitely an American citizen.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby podbaydoor » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:30 pm UTC

Weren't there announcements in local newspapers when he was born? Anyway, I haven't seen any of the birthers demanding the long-form birth certificates of any of the previous presidents. Anyway, what the hell is a long-form birth certificate? Mine says I was born in X hospital in Y city, has my parent's names, doctor's signature, and that's about it.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Dauric » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:38 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Weren't there announcements in local newspapers when he was born? Anyway, I haven't seen any of the birthers demanding the long-form birth certificates of any of the previous presidents. Anyway, what the hell is a long-form birth certificate? Mine says I was born in X hospital in Y city, has my parent's names, doctor's signature, and that's about it.


Wikipedia:

Scroll up a bit from that link and note that while federal NCHS makes a standardized form, states are not obligated to use it and can issue their own certificates.
The U.S. National Center for Health Statistics creates standard forms that are recommended for use by the individual states to document births. However, states are free to create their own forms.[22] As a result, neither the appearance nor the information content of birth certificate forms is uniform across states. These forms are completed by the attendant at birth or a hospital administrator, which are then forwarded to a local or state registrar, who stores the record and issues certified copies when requested.[1]
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby sourmìlk » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:39 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Weren't there announcements in local newspapers when he was born? Anyway, I haven't seen any of the birthers demanding the long-form birth certificates of any of the previous presidents.

The other presidents weren't black.
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby mmmcannibalism » Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:50 pm UTC

Jessica wrote:I don't know American birth certificates, just so everything is clear.

They may not want to public the president of the united state's personal identification for the public. As in there may be certain identifying numbers on the certificate that really shouldn't be given to everyone in the world, especially when they're a public figure. I know on my new birth certificate (but not my old one) there's a unique pin which allows me to get any other form of real ID anywhere. That might be why they don't want to public the long form one.

And even if they don't think anyone would actually try and steal the president's identity, and don't mind people trying to steal things for forgery purposes, it is akin to asking someone to publish extremely private documents. If anyone else was told they had to photo copy their SIN and publish it online, I'm sure people would object. Most people don't like giving away important parts of their identity.

Just saying's all...


Except that is easily dealt with by putting a strip of paper over a single field you don't want to be seen; its clearly a political play(thats working).
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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby Wodashin » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:21 am UTC

1.) That statistic is crazy. 50%? Yeah, no.

2.) Probably for the same reason that Rumsfeld won't deny being a reptilian. It gives the idiots legitimacy.

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Re: More Obama Birth Certificate Naughtiness

Postby phlip » Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:05 am UTC

There's also a very strong "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" angle here. Give them this irrelevant document, and they'll start demanding other irrelevant documents under claims just as wild and far-fetched... and then they can claim "they showed us the birth certificate, what is it about this new document they want to hide?". Basically it gives them free reign (at least, more so than they already do) to make whatever wild claim they want, and put the burden on Obama to disprove it.

And then there's the "they wouldn't go to this much effort to deny it if it wasn't true" thinking failure to contend with... why is he so insistent that he's a citizen? What's that a cover for? Etc etc...

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