1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby segmentation fault » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:29 pm UTC

well we cant really argue with you if you think the land was Israels to begin with, and proceed to call it Jewish Land. we have a fundamental difference in what we think is "fair." you think its fair that the entire world establish an exclusively jewish state where many non-jews live, bulldoze the inhabitants homes and make way for Jewish-only settlements, and blockade the inhabitants into poverty. i however thinks its fair to split the land and stop fucking fighting about it.

also, you blame the lack of peace because you dont trust the palestinians into maintaining their end, but why can you trust israel? they didnt maintain their end of the ceasefire considering the continued existence of a blockade and the bombing of a tunnel. hamas seemed to do pretty well on their end.

but seriously, i cant really argue about this anymore. both sides just reiterate the same points, and this is just going in circles.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Dream » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:33 pm UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:No, we're not going to stop, because you seem to say that Hamas is awful and then demand that we reward Hamas's awfulness with a country, formed according to Hamas's demands, from which Hamas can continue their awfulness.


It is not HAMAS' demand. It is the right to self determination of the people of Palestine. Attributing Palestinian nationalism to HAMAS, and thus opposing it is like attributing American democracy to rapacious oil companies, and opposing it. Just because someone evil is a vocal supporter of a thing, doesn't make that thing wrong. Even if that evil is a big part of the thing, the thing can still be the right thing on an ethical and moral level.

And it has been argued convincingly elsewhere in this thread that a Palestinian state that is stable and prosperous is the best way to stop HAMAS, by giving the people of Palestine a peaceful, beneficial alternative.

If you want to follow through to an end of any peaceful kind, you're going to have to stop conflating HAMAS and Palestine in general. It might be difficult for you to do, but you'll just have to find a way, because it is objectively true, and the only way forward.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:06 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:No, we're not going to stop, because you seem to say that Hamas is awful and then demand that we reward Hamas's awfulness with a country, formed according to Hamas's demands, from which Hamas can continue their awfulness.


Hm...

No, actually. I haven't said that. Don't think I even implied it.

By the way, any luck on that question I asked you about your justification behind banning those political parties? I'm still curious about that one.

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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Silas » Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:22 am UTC

Dream wrote:If you want to follow through to an end of any peaceful kind, you're going to have to stop conflating HAMAS and Palestine in general... it is objectively true, and the only way forward.

Isn't it clear by now that Hamas claims to speak for Gaza, and makes good on that claim? They expelled Fateh, and, for four months enforced the terms of an unpopular truce on powerful rival factions (mostly successfully, to the discredit of the Israelis, who broke it). Their position in Gaza has probably been strengthened by the past month's fighting, but even before, Hamas was Gaza.

Dream wrote:And it has been argued convincingly elsewhere in this thread that a Palestinian state that is stable and prosperous is the best way to stop HAMAS, by giving the people of Palestine a peaceful, beneficial alternative.

Not if Hamas can preside over the change. As long as Hamas controls Gaza, any improvement there will only strengthen their claim to being the only ones who can force Israel (and the rest of the world) to make concessions.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby aleflamedyud » Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:25 am UTC

segmentation fault wrote:well we cant really argue with you if you think the land was Israels to begin with, and proceed to call it Jewish Land. we have a fundamental difference in what we think is "fair." you think its fair that the entire world establish an exclusively jewish state where many non-jews live, bulldoze the inhabitants homes and make way for Jewish-only settlements, and blockade the inhabitants into poverty. i however thinks its fair to split the land and stop fucking fighting about it.

also, you blame the lack of peace because you dont trust the palestinians into maintaining their end, but why can you trust israel? they didnt maintain their end of the ceasefire considering the continued existence of a blockade and the bombing of a tunnel. hamas seemed to do pretty well on their end.

but seriously, i cant really argue about this anymore. both sides just reiterate the same points, and this is just going in circles.

I never said I support the occupation. But hey, don't let me stop you burning your straw men.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Dream » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:12 am UTC

Silas wrote:
Dream wrote:And it has been argued convincingly elsewhere in this thread that a Palestinian state that is stable and prosperous is the best way to stop HAMAS, by giving the people of Palestine a peaceful, beneficial alternative.

Not if Hamas can preside over the change. As long as Hamas controls Gaza, any improvement there will only strengthen their claim to being the only ones who can force Israel (and the rest of the world) to make concessions.

I think you are grossly underestimating the competence of Palestinians to choose their leaders well. If voting for HAMAS gets Gaza razed every few years, then people will realise that and not support them. Unfortunately for all concerned, there is a greater pressure support HAMAS than not after the events of the past year or two, because they are the only people who can promise hope in a hopeless situation. No one else, certainly not Fatah can say to the people of Gaza that they have a solution to the situation they are in. HAMAS can, because they were able to negotiate an agreement with Israel to end the blockade and allow trade and development to begin. If you want to replace HAMAS with anything, you need a change in the situation that the people of Palestine find themselves in, from the current hopelessness to one in which there are many options other than HAMAS to choose from. A good way to do that is democracy.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby aleflamedyud » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:18 am UTC

Democracy? You mean like the democratic Palestinian Authority that Hamas overthrew because they refused to sit in a unity government with collaborators like Fatah?
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Dream » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:59 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:Democracy? You mean like the democratic Palestinian Authority that Hamas overthrew because they refused to sit in a unity government with collaborators like Fatah?

Don't you mean that HAMAS kicked Fatah out of government, and shouldn't have had to entertain a coalition with anyone?
Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia, another Fatah leader, resigned his post along with his cabinet early Thursday, as reports of Hamas's victory began to circulate. Although the cabinet would have been required to step aside even if Fatah had retained its majority, Qureia acknowledged in submitting his resignation that Hamas had earned the right to form the next cabinet.

Messing with democratic functions has a way of making people turn their backs on them.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Silas » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:13 am UTC

Dream wrote:[T]here is a greater pressure support HAMAS than not after the events of the past year or two, because they are the only people who can promise hope in a hopeless situation. No one else, certainly not Fatah can say to the people of Gaza that they have a solution to the situation they are in. HAMAS can, because they were able to negotiate an agreement with Israel to end the blockade and allow trade and development to begin.

In the first place, the blockade was imposed after Hamas took control of Gaza- essentially because of it. It's absurd to say that Hamas is the only faction that can offer a solution to a problem that exists because of them. In the second, they managed to negotiate an agreement, but Israel never came through on lifting the blockade. There might as well not have been an agreement, for all the commerce and development that came through.

I think you overestimate the ability of Palestinians to choose and install good leaders. Hamas didn't bring hope for improving the lot of Gaza- its very existence picked a fight with the most powerful military in the region. It may have been emotionally satisfying to piss off the Israelis, but in the end, it just got a bunch of people killed. Hamas kind of reminds me of Saakashvili: faced with much more powerful neighbors, but unwilling to swallow their pride and keep the peace (the similarity is pretty shallow- don't push too hard).
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Dream » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:25 am UTC

Silas wrote:[q
In the first place, the blockade was imposed after Hamas took control of Gaza- essentially because of it. It's absurd to say that Hamas is the only faction that can offer a solution to a problem that exists because of them. In the second, they managed to negotiate an agreement, but Israel never came through on lifting the blockade. There might as well not have been an agreement, for all the commerce and development that came through.


so HAMAS was a bad choice because Israel fucked everything up? Rubbish. Had Israel kept its end of the bargain and not attacked Gaza, had it not imposed a blockade that was strangling the place, then HAMAS would have been a far more rational choice than Fatah. As no one could forsee Israel's actions, considering that HAMAS did actually stop its attacks and cooperate, HAMAS was the better choice. In future, with an open economy and some internationally kickstarted development, that will not always be true, and at that time, the people of Palestine will again vote in their best interests. That would then not be HAMAS, and HAMAS would be finished through dinosaur-like irrelevance.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Silas » Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:32 pm UTC

Dream wrote:so HAMAS was a bad choice because Israel fucked everything up? Rubbish.

That's exactly why Hamas was a bad choice. Being able to make nice with the Israelis is a critical ability for the leaders of Palestine- or Gaza. Gaza's leaders have to deal with Israel as it is, not as it ought to be. If you take your kids to a bad neighborhood at night, and they get beaten up, you're a bad father, even if somebody else is the criminal.

Had Israel kept its end of the bargain and not attacked Gaza, had it not imposed a blockade that was strangling the place, then HAMAS would have been a far more rational choice than Fatah.

And had Bernie Madoff been an actual investor instead of a con man, his fund would have been a much better choice than Goldman Sachs. But the people who gave him their money were still making a bad decision.

As no one could forsee Israel's actions, considering that HAMAS did actually stop its attacks and cooperate, HAMAS was the better choice.

Remember, when Hamas was chosen, there was no need to forestall a crippling blockade and eventual bombardment. It was Hamas that brought them down on Gaza in the first place.
And anyway, it was pretty easy to predict how the cease-fire was going to turn out. The Israelis were skeptical of Hamas's long-term intentions from the get-go. Do you really thing nobody could foresee that they'd insist on an unreasonably strict reading of the deal? Israel's kind of a bastard, but it's a predictable bastard.

In future, with an open economy and some internationally kickstarted development, that will not always be true, and at that time, the people of Palestine will again vote in their best interests. That would then not be HAMAS, and HAMAS would be finished through dinosaur-like irrelevance.

It would have made sense to invest in Gaza back in 2006, before the elections that gave Hamas cover to take over Gaza. It might make sense again in a year or so, even if Hamas is still there. But it doesn't make sense any time when it comes because of Hamas or something Hamas does. That will just establish Hamas as the ones who can makes the Israelis deliver the goods.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Dream » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:15 am UTC

Silas wrote:before the elections that gave Hamas cover to take over Gaza

They were elected in a massive majority. If you're not dealing with actual reality, then I can't discuss this with you.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Silas » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:28 am UTC

What the hell are you talking about? The elections entitled Hamas to a certain number of seats in the PLO, but it was their apparent popularity that legitimized (sort of) their takeover of Gaza. If that's not "elections that give them cover" to do it, I don't know what is.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Dream » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:50 am UTC

Silas wrote:What the hell are you talking about? The elections entitled Hamas to a certain number of seats in the PLO, but it was their apparent popularity that legitimized (sort of) their takeover of Gaza. If that's not "elections that give them cover" to do it, I don't know what is.

Palestinian Authority, not Palestinian Liberation Organisation. Again, deal with reality. HAMAS hate the PLO and Fatah, and would never integrate with them. Fortunately that isn't what the election result was. The result was Fatah out, HAMAS in. No coalition, no cooperation, the people spoke. Sadly, in the eyes of the Israelis and Americans, the people spoke wrong, and Fatah were reinstalled without a mandate to govern. HAMAS' popularity wasn't apparent, it was real, and reflected in the democratic vote. Their "take over" of Gaza never actually happened. Instead, they were elected to govern it, and an attempt was made to oust them, which they could only repel in Gaza.

It isn't cover, it is subverted, perverted democracy. And this is what I mean by not being able to discuss this if you're not dealing with reality. Those few sentences have more fallacy and meretricious misrepresentation than a Bush Administration Iraq briefing. I can't spend all my time reminding you of basic facts about an election from only two years ago.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Silas » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:07 am UTC

Hamas won elections for a majority of seats in the Legislative Council of the Palestinian National Authority (that was a mixup of names, not a confusion of facts, before- my bad). That, by itself, didn't effect an obvious change in governance- it was still PA officials collecting taxes and running the government. What it did was provide political cover for Hamas to try and establish itself, not the PA, as the government in Gaza (they might have done in the rest of Palestine, but they couldn't pull it off- moot).
The major conflict in Gaza surfaced in December 2006 and was centered on Hamas executive force attempts to control Gaza instead of the Palestinian police
(Wiki)

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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Dream » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:22 am UTC

The conflict you refer to came about because the PA government had been handed to Fatah, who HAMAS rightly didn't see as legitimate. Since the police worked for the PA government, HAMAS extended that illegitimacy to them. I don't agree with the violence at all, but the grievance was real and serious.
Silas wrote:That, by itself, didn't effect an obvious change in governance- it was still PA officials collecting taxes and running the government.

What other than a parliamentary majority is necessary to effect a change in government? HAMAS should have formed a cabinet and begun negotiations with Israel immediately. Since they hammered out a deal for Gaza in the face of the US and Israel denying their legitimacy, they could certainly have achieved the same or better leading all Palestine, and without the stigma of Israeli and US criticism of the election result. It would have been a huge change, from the ineffectual Fatah, who have achieved nothing of significance, to HAMAS, who negotiated a ceasefire and the end of the Gaza blockade. (Again, you cannot blame HAMAS for Israel having a cynical intent from the beginning , and continuing the blockade.)

Gaza is a much easier punching bag than all of Palestine. Things might be very, very different now had HAMAS been allowed its democratic victory, and had all of Palestine united behind it in facing down Israel, along with the ability to legislate for all of the territory instead of the tiny sliver of Gaza. It was very much an obvious change in governance, and not just reshuffling the top while the rest goes on as before.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Silas » Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:48 am UTC

Dream wrote:The conflict you refer to came about because the PA government had been handed to Fatah, who HAMAS rightly didn't see as legitimate. Since the police worked for the PA government, HAMAS extended that illegitimacy to them. I don't agree with the violence at all, but the grievance was real and serious.
Silas wrote:That, by itself, didn't effect an obvious change in governance- it was still PA officials collecting taxes and running the government.

What other than a parliamentary majority is necessary to effect a change in government?

Governance, not government. I guess the distinction wasn't clear- I mean the difference between "Hamas controls the government" and "Hamas is the government." The election of Hamas to a majority of seats in the Legislative Council entitled them to change the policies of the various arms of the PA: the police, the tax collectors, the subsidizers (I'll talk about the police from here on, but only as shorthand)*. It didn't entitle them to install new police who answer to <the leadership of Hamas> instead of <the Hamas leadership of the PA parliament>. Effecting the latter in Gaza was the takeover I was talking about. It was legitimized (provided cover for) by Hamas evident popularity.

*Before the LC was castrated by political maneuvering in the aftermath of the election, that is.

HAMAS should have formed a cabinet and begun negotiations with Israel immediately. Since they hammered out a deal for Gaza in the face of the US and Israel denying their legitimacy, they could certainly have achieved the same or better leading all Palestine, and without the stigma of Israeli and US criticism of the election result.

I agree- that's what Hamas should have done. I'm less sure than you that they could have gotten a good deal for all of Palestine (specifically, I don't think the Israelis would have agreed to reasonable terms on anything but a permanent basis, nor that Hamas could have agreed to anything more than a temporary arrangement), but we're in the territory of unfound-able speculation here.

It would have been a huge change, from the ineffectual Fatah, who have achieved nothing of significance, to HAMAS, who negotiated a ceasefire and the end of the Gaza blockade. (Again, you cannot blame HAMAS for Israel having a cynical intent from the beginning , and continuing the blockade.)

This is what I've been saying. Hamas wasn't able to negotiate a cease-fire and the end of the Gaza blockade. Exhibit A: the blockade is still in effect.
Israeli cynicism, suspicion of Hamas' long-term intentions, and unwillingness to give the benefit of the doubt are facts of life with which any Palestinian leader must contend. Hamas right now is doing a lousy job of dealing with the realities of the situation in Gaza.

tl;dr: "We would have made things better, if only the Israelis had cut us some slack" isn't the same thing as "we made things better."

Though, now, I think I should qualify something I said earlier:
Silas wrote:I think you overestimate the ability of Palestinians Palestine to choose and install good leaders.

Maybe you're right. Maybe, had Hamas actually been able to form a government in the parliament, they would have struck a great bargain that would make things better for the Palestinians. But I don't think so. I think that Hamas' actions in Gaza show that they are simply unable, because of their past hostility and present ideology, to make a credible promise of lasting peace, without which no deal with Israel can succeed.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Dream » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:16 am UTC

Silas wrote:This is what I've been saying. Hamas wasn't able to negotiate a cease-fire and the end of the Gaza blockade. Exhibit A: the blockade is still in effect.
Israeli cynicism, suspicion of Hamas' long-term intentions, and unwillingness to give the benefit of the doubt are facts of life with which any Palestinian leader must contend. Hamas right now is doing a lousy job of dealing with the realities of the situation in Gaza.

tl;dr: "We would have made things better, if only the Israelis had cut us some slack" isn't the same thing as "we made things better."

This is the central plank of your position, and it is rotten through. Your statement is correct, but you draw an opposite conclusion from the obvious one. It was Israel's fault and responsibility that HAMAS didn't achieve the things that they agreed with Israel. Because Israel agreed them and Israel didn't follow through. You can't say that Israel's reluctance to actually implement its end of an agreement is a fact of life in the situation without also blaming Israel for that reluctance.

Israel had the next step for peace in the region, and an extremely important one at that, served up on a platter. All they had to do was accept the election result and resume trading with Palestine. It would have been a historic shift towards normal relations. But they fucked it up on purpose, and carry the responsibility for that.

And as to HAMAS usurping the PA police and institutions in Gaza, that happened after they were refused "permission" to form a government. You can't assume that they would have replaced the entire public services of Palestine with their own people based on that. Had they been allowed to just form a government and get on with governing, they would have had no compelling reason to do so.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby aleflamedyud » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:24 am UTC

This shit gets weirder and weirder. I ain't believing this claim without another source, but what the flying fuck is going on over there?
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Silas » Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:08 am UTC

Dream wrote:
Silas wrote:Israeli cynicism, suspicion of Hamas' long-term intentions, and unwillingness to give the benefit of the doubt are facts of life with which any Palestinian leader must contend. Hamas right now is doing a lousy job of dealing with the realities of the situation in Gaza.

This is the central plank of your position, and it is rotten through.

No. My central point is this: a vote for Hamas was a vote for continuing conflict with Israel*. Hamas won't promise Israel the permanent security that must be part of any deal that Israel enters into willingly. Won't even hint at it. And so every deal looks to the Israelis like a ploy to buy time to kit up for the next war.
Electing Hamas sends a message to the Israelis: You'll never have peace as long as we're around. I don't think the Palestinians are making good decisions here.

*to be fair, it could be seen as a vote for good governance, even if it means continuing conflict with Israel. Fateh has serious problems.

It was Israel's fault and responsibility that HAMAS didn't achieve the things that they agreed with Israel. Because Israel agreed them and Israel didn't follow through. You can't say that Israel's reluctance to actually implement its end of an agreement is a fact of life in the situation without also blaming Israel for that reluctance.

Israel has reasons for its intransigence, but they're not germane to a discussion about whether Palestinians make good decisions about whom to vote for.

Israel had the next step for peace in the region, and an extremely important one at that, served up on a platter. All they had to do was accept the election result and resume trading with Palestine. It would have been a historic shift towards normal relations. But they fucked it up on purpose, and carry the responsibility for that.

And what a step it was! All Israel had to do was watch fifteen years of bargaining disappear and get used to the idea that there could never be a treaty with Palestine, because every time a new government was voted in, it could simply abrogate it on the spot.

And as to HAMAS usurping the PA police and institutions in Gaza, that happened after they were refused "permission" to form a government. You can't assume that they would have replaced the entire public services of Palestine with their own people based on that. Had they been allowed to just form a government and get on with governing, they would have had no compelling reason to do so.

I didn't assume anything of the sort. But, anyway, what's your point? They were cheated out power on a technicality, and instead of lawyering up*, they simply seized control of part of the country. It wasn't Hamas exercising the powers it had won in elections, it was Hamas telling the PA it'd had enough of its games, and was going to wield its share of power, regardless. Kind of like the American Civil War, if you look at it right.

I think the facts are pretty uncontroversial. I'm still not clear on why you seized on this particular point.

*which was a fight they would have lost. I don't get the feeling Palestine has a strong system of checks and balances
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Dream » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:49 am UTC

Silas wrote:My central point is this: a vote for Hamas was a vote for continuing conflict with Israel*.
No, at the time it was a vote for a ceasefire, which until Israel broke it, was what was delivered. It was also a vote for better governance, and against corruption.

Silas wrote:Israel has reasons for its intransigence, but they're not germane to a discussion about whether Palestinians make good decisions about whom to vote for.
It was when you posted this:
Silas wrote:Israeli cynicism, suspicion of Hamas' long-term intentions, and unwillingness to give the benefit of the doubt are facts of life with which any Palestinian leader must contend.


Silas wrote:get used to the idea that there could never be a treaty with Palestine
Israel sabotaged the basic ceasefire, which was a very small first step toward peace, and you have the gall to blame HAMAS for the fact that there "could never be a treaty"? That is ridiculous. These things have to move in stages, and stopping killing each other, even temporarily is the first one. If Israel can't get that right, then it can't claim anything about HAMAS' likelihood of abrogating treaty responsibilities.

Silas wrote:Hamas telling the PA it'd had enough of its games, and was going to wield its share of power, regardless.
I'm tired of telling you this over and over. HAMAS was elected into power, not into a share of it. It was and is the legitimate, elected government of Palestine. The moment Fatah took power after losing the election, it gave up any pretense of legitimacy, further strengthening HAMAS' unquestionable mandate to govern. No one disputes this, so please stop repeating untruths about shares of power.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby aleflamedyud » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:58 pm UTC

Israel sabotaged the basic ceasefire, which was a very small first step toward peace, and you have the gall to blame HAMAS for the fact that there "could never be a treaty"? That is ridiculous. These things have to move in stages, and stopping killing each other, even temporarily is the first one. If Israel can't get that right, then it can't claim anything about HAMAS' likelihood of abrogating treaty responsibilities.

First of all, we have already argued that Israel did not sabotage a "basic ceasefire". It blockaded an enemy that was making war upon it while claiming a ceasefire. You still have not stated what Israel should have done about the rockets that flew into its territory for the entire term of the ceasefire, particularly the ones not claimed by a non-Hamas militant group (which were most likely Hamas rockets).

Secondly, even if Israel "sabotaged" the cease-fire, Hamas abrogated the Oslo Accords, the Camp David peace process, and the Taba Summit -- the last of which could have ended in a full peace treaty and the declaration of a nice-sized state of Palestine had the terrorism actually ceased! Plenty of people in Israel are perfectly willing to talk to Hamas provided that Hamas accepts a basic level of rule-of-law and abides by the treaties and processes that its predecessor made when they were the legitimate representative of the Palestinian Arabs.

Once again I ask you, Israel has a belligerent neighbor who rejects all peace process as against the laws of God and fired rockets at Israel on a daily basis. What should they have done?
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby yoni45 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:41 pm UTC

Regarding the ceasefire...

Terms are that everyone stops shooting, and Israel eases the blockade if that holds. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7462554.stm )

Israel did ease blockade within the week. ( http://news.google.ca/archivesearch?q=i ... 06/24/2008 )

While rockets hit Israel within a similar time frame. ( http://news.google.ca/archivesearch?q=h ... 06/29/2008 )

The deal is that blockade is eased if lack of fire coming from Gaza holds. It didn't.

(By the way, Hamas actually didn't win its elections by a landslide, the margin was something like 51%-49% vote-wise, but Hamas was able to exploit a loophole in the Palestinian election system. Either way, that system reserves the President the right to dissolve Parliament if s/he deems it necessary, and no, it does not allow any given party the right to take by force that which it wasn't given in election.)
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Dream » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:01 am UTC

aleflamedyud wrote:First of all, we have already argued that Israel did not sabotage a "basic ceasefire". It blockaded an enemy that was making war upon it while claiming a ceasefire. You still have not stated what Israel should have done about the rockets that flew into its territory for the entire term of the ceasefire, particularly the ones not claimed by a non-Hamas militant group (which were most likely Hamas rockets).
Fjafjafan posted a link already explaining that not only did Israel not follow through on its obligations, but that it planned to violate the ceasefire, and did so, deliberately and cynically. This is not just about rockets and the blockade. Israel bombed a tunnel and killed Palestinian civilians (yes, most of the tunnels are privately owned and operated). The link, and quoted text in the thread explained why Israel wanted to provoke HAMAS, and why it went on to blame HAMAS for retaliatory rocket strikes and to tighten the blockade. It was cynical, it was calculated and it was sabotage.

And as I said above, if you want to blame HAMAS for every single attack from its territory, then we can blame Israel's government for every attack from its territory. Which is a lot of attacks. Enough documented journalist murders to jail the entire cabinet for life. Enough bulldozed homes and shot children to land them all in the Hague. So don't imply that any rocket not claimed by anyone can be placed on HAMAS, unless you want every bullet and bomb placed on the Knesset.

aleflamedyud wrote:Secondly, even if Israel "sabotaged" the cease-fire, Hamas abrogated the Oslo Accords, the Camp David peace process, and the Taba Summit -- the last of which could have ended in a full peace treaty and the declaration of a nice-sized state of Palestine had the terrorism actually ceased!

I just wiki'd every Israel-Palestine summit i'm aware of to make sure I'm right about this. HAMAS has never, ever been invited to or taken part in negotiations with Israel. You're wilfully mixing them up with the PLO and Fatah. Either you're doing this out of ignorance, because you think that there is one a single "Palestine" political entity, or you're doing it to muddle the debate. Either way, don't do it. HAMAS has never abrogated any peace responsibilities.

And by the way, Taba was the summit that Sharon refused to attend after his election, leaving Arafat hanging. It also didn't include Jerusalem, only the remaining Arab areas of the city. So its failure is Israel's fault for not budging on the biggest issue of them all, and for in essence abandoning the talks, even though that was what Sharon's electoral mandate indicated he should do.

aleflamedyud wrote:Israel has a belligerent neighbor who rejects all peace process as against the laws of God and fired rockets at Israel on a daily basis. What should they have done?
I've answered that before. There are two belligerent neighbours. The smoking ruins of Gaza attests to Isreal's total lack of moral authority in this. Israel must lead by example and become peace makers. They should drop the charade that any violent act is grounds for invasion or blockade or airstrikes. And they certainly should not delieberately goad HAMAS into a confrontation. Israel should be building, not destroying.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby aleflamedyud » Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:40 am UTC

I just wiki'd every Israel-Palestine summit i'm aware of to make sure I'm right about this. HAMAS has never, ever been invited to or taken part in negotiations with Israel. You're wilfully mixing them up with the PLO and Fatah. Either you're doing this out of ignorance, because you think that there is one a single "Palestine" political entity, or you're doing it to muddle the debate. Either way, don't do it. HAMAS has never abrogated any peace responsibilities.

There was, at least in theory, one single "Palestine" political entity. That was the whole point of the goddamned Oslo Accords in the first place! Why should Israel have to make a separate peace with each individual terrorist group?

Hamas ran for Parliament under Palestinian Authority law. They ran against Fatah, the PLO, and won by a narrow margin. When they found Fatah fighting them they violently overthrew the PA, kicked Fatah out of Gaza, instituted one-party rule, abrogated all obligations they had as a political party in the Palestinian political system and upped the ante of their jihad against Israel when at worst they should have had Parliament dissolved and demanded new elections.

The notion that Israel should make a separate peace deal with each individual group that manages to take over a bit of territory - allowing the groups to rotate each "peaced-out" party away in favor of one that will abrogate and demand more whenever they want - is absolutely fucking ludicrous. No nation in the world consents to deal with a hostile nation that perceives itself as having no obligation to abide by treaties signed by an older government. Nor does any sane nation consider it their own responsibility when their neighbor declares war because their neighbor is run by extremists who thought that those collaborating bastards in the other party came too close to a peace deal.

And as I said above, if you want to blame HAMAS for every single attack from its territory, then we can blame Israel's government for every attack from its territory.

Don't we already do that?

And by the way, Taba was the summit that Sharon refused to attend after his election, leaving Arafat hanging. It also didn't include Jerusalem, only the remaining Arab areas of the city. So its failure is Israel's fault for not budging on the biggest issue of them all, and for in essence abandoning the talks, even though that was what Sharon's electoral mandate indicated he should do.

Of course Sharon broke off the talks! Peace talks were conducted under the assumption that terrorism would cease in order for there to be peace. Terrorism never ceased; thus peace talks ended.

I've answered that before. There are two belligerent neighbours. The smoking ruins of Gaza attests to Isreal's total lack of moral authority in this. Israel must lead by example and become peace makers. They should drop the charade that any violent act is grounds for invasion or blockade or airstrikes. And they certainly should not delieberately goad HAMAS into a confrontation. Israel should be building, not destroying.

And what happens when Hamas destroys what Israel built, like those greenhouses the Israeli settlers in Gaza were paid to leave for the Palestinians?
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby TheStranger » Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:59 am UTC

ahh Hammas, they can't even last a week without bombing someone. I heard on NPR this morning that Hammas had praised the attacks (though no mention of them taking direct credit).
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby aleflamedyud » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:13 am UTC

TheStranger wrote:ahh Hammas, they can't even last a week without bombing someone. I heard on NPR this morning that Hammas had praised the attacks (though no mention of them taking direct credit).

Of course. If they took direct responsibility for their terrorist attacks it would keep them from claiming the Israelis violated the cease-fire first.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Amoeba » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:25 am UTC

So, calling Israel's response disproportionate is one thing. For Olmert to plainly state that the response will be disproportionate is another.
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby CrunchyFoodstuff » Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:50 pm UTC

Amoeba wrote:So, calling Israel's response disproportionate is one thing. For Olmert to plainly state that the response will be disproportionate is another.


Am I the only one who is extremely worried about this choice of words:

"The response will come at the time, the place and the manner that we choose."


Nuke?
Mass genocide to eradicate all terrorists and potential terrortists (read: civilians) at once?

Anyway, slowly it isn't Hamas who is Israel's greatest enemy anymore, it is Israel itself.

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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby Maurog » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:21 pm UTC

He's right about the tit-for-tat strategy not working, though.

"The response will come at the time, the place and the manner that we choose."
Cookies?

Dropping crates of cookies and candy on Hamas so that they stop their evil ways and become all happy and nice?

(He might have meant marshmallows, my between-the-lines reader is a bit rusty)
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Re: 1200 killed, many more injured in Israeli attacks in Gaza

Postby TheStranger » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:43 pm UTC

Amoeba wrote:So, calling Israel's response disproportionate is one thing. For Olmert to plainly state that the response will be disproportionate is another.


It's not as though Israel is fighting an enemy sword to utterly destroy it?

War is not about about proportional responses, it is about hammering your enemy until they either give or are extinct. As long as Hamas continues with it's rhetoric about destroying Israel, and does not seek to stop rockets from being fired from within their territory (or repudiate their "Israel does not have a right to exist" rhetoric) Israel can treat it as an enemy.
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